New Immagariton bill showing up

[Strike For The South]

I like it I mean a bunch of retirees in NM is one thing but the kind guys who'd sign up to protect the Texas border wont be bringing just binoculars I think we could make these guys think twice about hoping something needs to be done and if that fat federal goverment wont do anything we might need to The wall is looking mighty fine bout now :book:

Linkage (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050825-111141-7193r.htm)

[Zalmoxis]

Do you mean immigration?

[Papewaio]

A posse?

[InsaneApache]

The thing that struck me was that the Canadian border gets the treatment as well....do many Canucks try and slip into the USA then? ~:)

[Papewaio]

No the Canadian border patrol is to stop wood getting in...

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Considering the things that have turned up about some Canadian Muslim immigrants in the "War on Terror" then I reckon the Canadian border could be perfect for smuggling all sorts of things that go boom into the U.S..
I honestly think that the Canadian border does pose a similar sort of problem in that respect as the Mexican one does.

Obviously not the same as the Mexican border for hordes of illegal immigrants though.

And Canadian border guards are far nicer than U.S. ones. Just had to add that.

[Xiahou]

We all know the feds don't plan on doing a damned thing about it.Yup, I'm expecting alot of talk about stopping illegal immigration during the next election cycle... but we both know it's unlikely to ever be more than talk and even that will stop after the elections. I haven't seen anything to convince me that the "state of emergencies" being declared in border states are much more than token gestures by governors to make themselves look tough politically.

[Spetulhu]

Considering the things that have turned up about some Canadian Muslim immigrants in the "War on Terror" then I reckon the Canadian border could be perfect for smuggling all sorts of things that go boom into the U.S..

Why smuggle when the US is full of things that go boom? Any terrorist wannabe can just buy, make or steal them there. Nuclear weapons, you say? The US has quite enough of those, and nuclear power plants too. Same for chemical stuff.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I reckon U.S. security around nuclear plants and weapons is pretty good.

I don't know about any Islamo-fruitcakes but if I were a taffo-nutter I wouldn't be trying to steal warheads from U.S. military bases (armed guards, secure silos, bloody heavy warheads...) or material straight out of a reactor (it stings).

Come to think of it I didn't say nuclear weapons, you did.

Anyway, fears of things sneaking through either border seems to be a major concern in the U.S. at the moment. It just so happens that with Mexico you also have a huge flow of illegal immigrants from around the world (although, admittedly, mostly Mexican)

[Spetulhu]

ICome to think of it I didn't say nuclear weapons, you did.

True, you just mentioned things that go boom. McVeigh didn't need to smuggle anything for his bomb, did he? Everything is available, you just need a guy or two who know how to build it.

The nuclear stuff came up because people are afraid of it. Some really believe that terrorists are capable of building a nuke and smuggling it to the Great Satan. I'd worry about nuclear power plants instead. Or accidents with real military nukes.

[Phatose]

I don't know. Secure borders and better immigration control sounds like a good idea.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure a bunch of heavily armed Texan civilians patrolling the border is such a grand idea. Volunteers especially, since I have to suspect that they'll be the people most passionate about the issues involved. Seems like a recipe for a whole lotta shooting. Not like we can count on the feds to regulate them with any real effectiveness either - if the feds were capable of keeping that kind of watch on the border, we wouldn't need the amateur border patrol anyway. Who's gonna watch the watchmen, y'know?

[Aenlic]

I'd vote for it, if the bill included provisions preventing non-citizens who commit felonies here from owning businesses here which then promote such treatment for others. Say, for example, the convicted felon and non-U.S. citizen the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, who just happens to own the newspaper which printed the above article. Nah, that would make too much sense, wouldn't it? ~D

[Aurelian]

"Immigariton" sounds like something Godzilla would fight. ~;)

As for the proposed bill... the fact that each state would be doing its own thing would probably undermine the effectiveness of the idea. If Texas enacted that sort of program, and California didn't, then immigration would just move to wherever it was easiest to cross.

I'm pretty sure that you couldn't make a system like that work anywhere near the Canadian border. There are too many states, the border is too long, and people just aren't worried enough about illegal Canadian immigrants.

That being said, a 'volunteer firefighter' type approach might work if the idea was to create some volunteer manpower that could work within the existing border patrol system. They'd have to be well trained and would really just be part-time volunteer immigration agents.

[Red Harvest]

I don't have any problem with improving border security, and would like to see it done. However, doing it with a bunch of state volunteers like this? Well, it is most likely to end up providing work for a number of Klansmen and Aryan Brotherhood types.

[Red Harvest]

They said they were doing background checks. Jesus, is that all that the anti-states rights side has to say on these issues? "They're all racists!"

ffs, that's not the case. Get over yourselves. This is the best solution, and if some dumbass illegal alien gets shot I am more than happy to turn the other cheek.

The best solution? Hardly. Looks like they want to use $6.8 billion in Federal funds to do it. Seems like it would make more sense to spend $6.8 billion on expanding the Border Patrol. If Texas or New Mexico wants to spend their own billions for the security force, then I might feel differently. If it is going to be a state force, then let them use state funds.

You may want these sort of yahoo's running around in your state, but I don't and that's where this is being proposed. It is definitely laced with racism and it will attract the wrong type of people.

One way to improve such a proposal would be to require that the volunteers for Mexican border service pass a rudimentary Spanish test. That would do a great deal toward getting rid of the xenophobic types just looking for an opportunity to shoot somebody. It would also be handy in dealing with the very people that the patrol is supposed to be looking for.

The GOP has control of the house/senate/presidency. If they want to do something about border security why haven't they put forward some sort of proposal and passed it?

[Strike For The South]

One way to improve such a proposal would be to require that the volunteers for Mexican border service pass a rudimentary Spanish test

There are allot who can pass a rudamentry spanish test including myself

Donde esta la biblioteca ~:cheers:

[Red Harvest]

There are allot who can pass a rudamentry spanish test including myself

Donde esta la biblioteca ~:cheers:

If somebody is looking for a library out in the desert, well, something ain't right so you might want to make sure nobody else is fixin' to draw a bead on you.

I don't speak Spanish and haven't had any Spanish instruction myself, but I can understand enough to get by, and reading it has been rather easy (all that worthless French instruction I had.) I don't try to speak it though. ~;)

I'm serious about this being a good way to weed out the undesirables though, and I would consider it a basic job requirement.

[Phatose]

I'm pretty sure even suspected mass murderers don't get instantly shot if they try to run. I'd think our nation has more class then to start shooting people who are just desperate for a better life. It's one thing to round em up and deport 'em. But one shout, one warning shot then you're dead? For people, the majority of which are fueled by nothing less then desperation?

The United States of America is better then that.

[Red Harvest]

You should be glad they're spending alot of money on it, red harvest. If it was done my way, we'd just go round up the local mob with their hunting rifles, and patrol the border. First you get a shouted warning--shouts are universal, you know. Mexicans might not speak english, but they aren't dumb. Then you'd get a warning shot. If you don't got the idea by then, well... you chose to commit the crime.

Problem with that is, the typical mob doesn't shoot anyone worthwhile, they shoot kids or mothers and generally end up behaving as a bunch of jackasses. This is an Abu Ghraib like plan...

Phase II. The coyotes start killing anyone they come across along the way. Those coyotes know the crossing zones better than Bubba. Afterall, the coyotes consider this their livelihood. This isn't the sort of thing for untrained amateurs.

Nope, the answer is to do this right, or not to do it at all: professionals, with proper authority and training.

[Strike For The South]

The feds, put simply, don't have the balls to fix the problem.

Story of the last 15 years no one since reagen had has any balls and even he wasnt a stickler for the domestic side

[Red Harvest]

The feds, put simply, don't have the balls to fix the problem.


No, it isn't a federal problem. The problem is the nation won't deal with it. I doubt the effected states will either. If nobody has the cojones to propose a full solution, then it should be dropped altogether. Frankly, I don't think those proposing it would be willing to foot the bill either.

[Papewaio]

If you don't got the idea by then, well... you chose to commit the crime.

If you shot a person then yes you have committed a crime and then you will do the time.

Vigilantes are not a step forward.

[Red Harvest]

I'm sure someone knowledgeable in US law will correct me if I'm wrong, but it would not be hard to beat a murder charge against someone trying to cross the border illegally. Especially considering how many of them carry contraband.

In Texas you would not be permitted to go popping people like that unless it was in defense of your property/life, etc. The vigilante mob you describe would most likely be from outside the community, and therefore would end up being tried for murder. Unless their own lives are threatened then it is going to be murder.

If you manage to beat a murder rap, you will still be looking at civil suits.

This is a plan for setting up militias that themselves are likely to be more of a menace than a help.

If your fellow countrymen, political leaders, and people in the affected states don't want to address the issue directly, then the people have in effect spoken.

[Red Harvest]

That statement is crap and you know it.

Not at all. It's not crap. The assertion that spotty mismash of state coverage by amateurs will do it better is what is crap. What I hear is some noise in a few areas, but not a major push to tackle this from the leadership.

One of the big problems you are going to have is that extremists seem to be very noisy about this. It makes others who would like to see something done hesitant to support their efforts (like me for example.)

It doesn't help that quite a few of the folks who consider this a high priority are not willing to pay for it, instead they want to shuffle money from elsewhere. The ironic part is that the anti-federalist, anti-tax types are the ones pushing for it. "Died of a theory" comes to mind...

When I hear militia, my first images are of dangerous nutballs who by acting like idiots endanger my gun ownership and self defense rights. The recent history of these self appointed militia types is anything but stellar. Saying it will be state militia doesn't do much to improve the image (history again.)

The Feds can do this better and more efficiently. That's where the efforts to fund it should come from. There are very good cases for funding an improved border patrol/detention/return effort--economic and security wise.

[Papewaio]

I'm sure someone knowledgeable in US law will correct me if I'm wrong, but it would not be hard to beat a murder charge against someone trying to cross the border illegally. Especially considering how many of them carry contraband.

Well I'm against vigilantes in any country including Australia, Indonesia and the USA. I'm sure your leading politicians feel likewise.

Get change done through the democratic political process.

[Slyspy]

And your ideas won't help either. Think the good old boys are the only guys down there on the border with guns? What are you so scared of anyway?

[Strike For The South]

And your ideas won't help either. Think the good old boys are the only guys down there on the border with guns? What are you so scared of anyway?

Were the only ones who know how to shoot those gangs are just hick wannabes ~:cheers:

[Papewaio]

I'm "scared" of the constant economic damage being done by illegal immigration. We feel it even here up in Oregon.

I think the idea that these militias would only attract racists and hicks is a bit prejudiced on the part of the people saying that. But even if it does, it's better than nothing.

So you prefer white supremacists above multiculturalism?

You also would disobey your Commander in Chief?

[Slyspy]

I'm "scared" of the constant economic damage being done by illegal immigration. We feel it even here up in Oregon.

I think the idea that these militias would only attract racists and hicks is a bit prejudiced on the part of the people saying that. But even if it does, it's better than nothing.

What economic damage do you mean. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to know.

Further more I'd regard a return to the local posse/lynchmob to be a step backwards even for the Southern States ( ~;) for strike for the south).

[Slyspy]

Then the law should fall upon the employers of illegals then. No employment = no reason to enter the country. Surely this action can be taken at local level, maybe more easily than using the Federal agencies which you loathe so much.

[Red Harvest]

They come for other reasons as well. Drugs being a major one.,

No, it would be easier to stay at home for the drugs... The problem is U.S. consumption of drugs. Of course, that's an economy driven by the illegal nature of recreational drugs and its effect on price. Very much like Prohibition in its impact.

[Red Harvest]

You keep saying that, despite the track record of the government in the last 15 or so years? For crissakes, the CIA has been proven to have actually sponsored drug runs through the border in the past. The feds can't and won't do a thing.

They do quite a bit, but we won't finance what it takes to do the job we *say* that we want done. The effort over the year's is like the way Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield have run Iraq, trying to sneak it in on the cheap. Is that the soldier's fault? Is that the army or marine's fault? Should we send over militia? Hell NO!

You need facilities to hold people, you need a lot of people to maintain the patrols. You need to remove the economic incentives. Try to work on one part of the puzzle without the others, and you are doomed to failure. Better not to spend anymore than at present if you don't want to do it right.

And putting together a bunch of militia clowns sounds like the best way to make a bad situation worse.

[Papewaio]

I agree. But that's only half the problem. We've still got loads of illegal immigrants already here that need a swift kick in the ass on their way out.

They come for other reasons as well. Drugs being a major one.,

So crack down on the employers and crack down on the drug suppliers and users.

Remove the market, remove a reason for the illegal immigration.