Armor in the desert?!! Heh, whatever

[Budwise]

I am not saying that I am the best player in the world, in fact I am not. But, I always bring armor to the desert and mop up just as well. Anyone else do this too? The little extra tiredness that I receive is far less than the arrow casualities that I would have had without the armor.

Anyone else ignore the armor in the desert rule?

[Advo-san]

I do ignore it too.... But then again I really stink when it comes to battles. :embarassed: I ve finished all historicall campaigns though

[danielrech]

I am not saying that I am the best player in the world, in fact I am not. But, I always bring armor to the desert and mop up just as well. Anyone else do this too? The little extra tiredness that I receive is far less than the arrow casualities that I would have had without the armor.

Anyone else ignore the armor in the desert rule?

Even those heavily armoured units? ~:eek:

[dgfred]

I don't worry too much about it either ~;) . A little armor gives my guys
alot of confidence :knight: - plus the other thread says a little armor doesn't
effect the desert operations ~:cool: .

[Mount Suribachi]

Don't try it with Kataphracts though, you don't have to move very far before they're totally exhausted.... ~;)

[ichi]

Units with armor rating of 1 or 2 act as tho they are not affected, at armor 3 they seem to do OK.

At armor level 4 or 5 (for example, Feudal Men at Arms start at armor 5 IIRC) they will quickly tire and will never recover more than 2 bars.

Above 5 units tire rapidly and don't recover very well at all.

The effect of fatigue on morale:

Unit is Very Tired: -2
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is Totally Exhausted: -8

And on combat ability:

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Exhausted units can't run any faster than they would normally walk.

These penalties seem much, much higher than any damage from missiles. It may be possbile to win battles in the hot desert carrying loads of armor, but I'd hate for new players to read this board and get the idea that armor doesn't adversely affect troops in the dez.

ichi :bow:

[Del Arroyo]

The most important effect armor seems to have is in making your troops helpless in the face of massed enemy reinforcements. If they don't have any reinforcements and you can chase them from the field, then great, but if you chase them to the other edge of the map and are still engaged with lone units when reinforcements start arriving, you're in trouble-- MORE if you're relying on heavily-armored totally-exhausted units.

DA

[Ironside]

Well my desert corps says it all, they lose the first wave badly, but slaughter the rest when facing heavily armoured units.
This is quite late into a campaign when my regular troops is heavily upgraded and I can afford the loss of one wave (10-15 units, I redeploy the rest).

[antisocialmunky]

Heavy armor in deserts doesn't matter all that much until you take a charge from camels or Ghulums and mass rout.

[English assassin]

It doesn't matter too much, provided (1) you aren't that armoured and (2) the battle isn't that big. If the enemy has a wave of reinforcements to bring on, and your armoured troops are already fatigued from fighting the first wave, you take WAY too many casualties.

I notice it most with cavalry, who I suppose do more running about. Even MS tire after chasing one wave of routers and then never really recover to be that much use. using knights in the desert seems to be a good way to get them killed as they tire so fast and the penalties are massive. Hobilars are ideal.

[mfberg]

As long as the fight is over quickly my armoured men are fine, I usually keep my lightly armoured men as reinforcements. After having seen my halbred units melt in one battle I now only use regular speed or better units in the desert.

mfberg

[Procrustes]

I've been burned ~;) a couple of times when I brought armored units into the desert - especially cavalry. Got my armored troops caught in a sandstorm once - what a disaster that was. Now the only armored units I'll bring are parv arbs, and only on a defensive battle - and even they will quickly be down to 2 bars just standing there. I tend to hire whatever desert mercs I can find for my desert campaigns, too.

[manbaps]

My tactics are simple any armoured troops attack first and then withdraw after a quick melee to be replaced by more troops who fight in the same style. People how live in the desert dont have armour so then tend to get slaughtered quite quickly in these mass charges. Having said that this is single player and really most tactics work.

[ichi]

Having said that this is single player and really most tactics work.

Now that's insight! Very eloquently said.

Good job mate

ichi :bow:

[lugh]

I've tried to use armour in the desert and the only chance you have with heavy armour, knights, upgraded feudal and chiv units, is to break the army so badly that their reinforcements give up the ghost really early. Have a good few archers lined up behind your'e by now exhausted main line of knights and spear and you can break the second wave without them getting inside charge range, and usually the AI will give up rather than bring on the third wave.
It doesn't always work though and in that case you'll be slaughtered!
This was in a game when I tried to establish a Frankish realm by abandoning France. Was overwhelmed eventually but there were some brilliant battles in it.

[Bregil the Bowman]

I'm a relative novice and have certainly found desert fighting one of the hardest things to get right. Defending is much easier than attacking, for sure, and I've found that armoured units can hold on well enough so long as they don't have to move. The temptation to order a pursuit using my elite, upgraded units is what normally undoes me.

In all my games the tough desert battles have been with the Egyptians, and usually at Sinai. The Egyptians always seem to have hordes of low grade troops - camels, desert archers, muslim peasants, a handful of Ghulams and more peasants - which don't present a problem unless you have chased them aimlessly around the desert for half an hour. Just when you think you have them on the run (and are struggling to keep up) a new army appears on the map edge and slaughters your best assault troops while your reinforcements are catching up. This happened to my upgraded Almohad Urban Militia a few times in my first ever campaign.

I have tried two strategies which have been quite successful. One is to throw all my stacks into a weakly defended province and hope to force a retreat. This sometimes means leaving a border province unguarded. The next turn I throw most of my troops back into the unguarded province, leaving enough for defence, siege operations etc. That means that when the Egyptians counter-attack, I am the defender. Even Kats don't mind the sun if they only have to fight within a few yards of their start point, and its easier to call up reinforcements and dismiss tired units.

This strategy doesn't work in situations where you can't outflank a province or where the Egyptians are too scared to counter-attack, so in my current campaign (where my Byzantines are dominating the Middle East) I tried something else - a war of attrition. I would send in a stack comprised entirely of horse archers and Byz cavalry, kill as many Egyptians as I could, and then retreat before they became exhausted. Against camels and peasants this proved remarkably effective, I was getting kill ratios of 6:1 or better even though I was losing the battles. My unfortunate 2* general got the "good runner" vice but he was unlikley to command in other circumstances so I wasn't fussed. When they were down to about 16 units I attacked in force with a mix of troops, knowing I only had to break this army once.

Tactically, though, I still struggle when attacking in the desert - especially if the enemy has a good mix of troops. I'll have to keep reading here for tips!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It may work in sp but in MP you will be TOAST ~D

[m52nickerson]

The desert can be tough for catholics. In my Polish games I have always just used the feudal line of troops in the hot places of the world. By the time you are ready to fight across africa you should have captured a provence or two that can train feudal units, just destroy the armorer. The only problem is cavalry. You will have to stick with mercs, or other very lite cav.

For Catholics,

Feudal sergeants.
Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence –1 Armour 1

Armoured spearmen
Charge 5 Attack -1 Defence 2 Armour 3

Chivalric sergeants.
Charge 5 Attack –1 Defence 3 Armour 3

Italian light infantry.
Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence 3 Armour 3

Feudal men at arms.
Charge 3 Attack 3 Defence 2 Armour 3

Bulgarian brigands.
Charge 1 Attack 2 Defence 0 Armour 2

Woodsmen.
Charge 8 Attack 1 Defence -1 Armour 2

Pikemen.
Charge 4 Attack 1 Defence -1 Armour 1

Billmen
Charge 2 Attack 2 Defence 4 Armour 3

Militia sergeants.
Charge 4 Attack 2 Defence 3 Armour 3

Hobilars
Charge 6 Attack 1 Defence 2 Armour 3

Steppe cavalry
Charge 6 Attack 2 Defence 1 Armour 3

all go into the desert well, just don't make them with armor up-grades.

[ichi]

Kerns, Vikings, Fanatics, and Clansmen also work well in the desert. Alans are a decent cav.

ichi :bow:

[Geezer57]

Kerns, Vikings, Fanatics, and Clansmen also work well in the desert. Alans are a decent cav.

And if you can take Ireland, don't forget Gallowglasses: Charge 8, Attack 5 (AP), Defense 0, Armor 2, Morale 0. They're about the greatest "Fire and Forget" troops you can have... :book:

[dgfred]

And if you can take Ireland, don't forget Gallowglasses: Charge 8, Attack 5 (AP), Defense 0, Armor 2, Morale 0. They're about the greatest "Fire and Forget" troops you can have... :book:

What exactly is a Gallowglass? ~:confused: How did they get that name?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I dont think its a what but a who were the Gallowglass. I believe they were a sort of mercenary Irish fighter. Their weapon is a large two handed sword or a broad sword I believe.I maybe wrong here though.

[BAD]

What exactly is a Gallowglass? ~:confused: How did they get that name?

Nice info about Gallowglasses (http://www.lighthousewoods.com/genealogy/carlos/carlos_macauley_coll.html)

ph34r teh powA of Google. ~D

[antisocialmunky]

They cameoed in Macbeth along with some Kerns.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I believe that gallowglasses have been used for hundreds of years including the American Civil War. Like I said its just a term for Irish mercenaries.

'Gallowglass' at Antietam: (http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/turnpt1.html)

[antisocialmunky]

James Turner, who used the nom de plume Gallowglass, was an attorney from Jersey

Well, not in that case. It's just the author's pen name and there weren't exactly mercenaries during that war, just Irish regulars.

[DensterNY]

I'm not sure why I'm seeming to have the opposite experience in desert fighting but I've done quite well with armor. Right now I'm finishing off a very long English campaign and saved off the Egyptians for last as I was trying to avoid desert fighting from everything that I've read. Now, its the High Era and most of my troops are pretty hefty from upgrades to armor and weapons and I sent them in against the light Egyptian fighters and I've been kicking their butt pretty thoroughly.

Now to be fair I use my own concoction of military tactics which seem to work well. Since I know that my troops cannot run in the desert I feint retreat with faster units to bring the enemies to me and smash them in pre-arranged kill zones. Up close Ghulam horsemen and camels aren't much against Chivalric sergeants with Chivalric men at arms flanking them from the sides and rear and they are probably the biggest threat you'll find in the desert. Most of their infantry is rather crappy and using Highland clansmen, Gallowglasses, Viking landsmen and even some feudal men at arms you can easily trounce them.

As for the countless horse archers they are nothing but big walking targets against some of the missle troops available to the Catholics. Consider crossbowmen and longbowmen they have 30% further range than most horse archers who you'll whittle down as they attempt to run in close enough to skirmish.

I will agree with the other poster though that yes... in Single Player its not hard to out manuever the AI.

[crpcarrot]

And if you can take Ireland, don't forget Gallowglasses: Charge 8, Attack 5 (AP), Defense 0, Armor 2, Morale 0. They're about the greatest "Fire and Forget" troops you can have... :book:


i dont have the exact stats but i think ghazi's are better fire and forget unit unless u were talking speciafically about catholic units

[Mithrandir]

Yes, gallows have a low morale, hence they need managing..ghazi's on the other hand :D.

For discussion on the history of units, please visit and post in the Monastery.
Thank you.

-Mithrandir.

[econ21]

i dont have the exact stats but i think ghazi's are better fire and forget unit unless u were talking speciafically about catholic units

No, I don't think so. IIRC, Ghazis have -4 defence with same attack and two lower charge as Gallowglass. This means they die much more easily. They do have much higher morale, but in SP a decent player should not need that to keep his men in the fight.

I agree with English Assassin, mail armoured infantry are ok in the desert - perhaps especially if you are defending - as they help you win the all important first engagement. But knights tire too easily and are not really worth it. (If heavy cavalry was as powerful in MTW as RTW, they might be useful to help win the first engagement too but it tends to be secondary to the way I fight in MTW.)

One point about withdrawing armoured units during a desert battle - it's not good to replace them with other armoured units, as IIRC, they come already tired.

[OlafTheBrave]

Yes reinforcments do come on already tired, however that is better than tottaly exhausted and unable to recover. The best way I have found to use heavily armored foot soilders in the desert is to bring lots of them and as they tire rotate them off the field. Also do not let them chase routers, use lighter troops for that.

As far as heavily armored cavalry, they are just too slow and tire too quickly to be of any use.

[lugh]

As far as heavily armored cavalry, they are just too slow and tire too quickly to be of any use.
I have to disagree. Try charging two units of 6valour/gold armour Lancers at the middle of the Muslim army. AI envelops as per standard procedure, then rout when they realise each Lancer is killing a barreload nearly before falling!
They all die in the end, but if you manage to get the general, the other waves break on the usual spear/pike wall with pavise arbs and artillery.
If it's mainly horse archers, sit behind the spears and let the Arbs and cannon take care of it.

[Geezer57]

i dont have the exact stats but i think ghazi's are better fire and forget unit unless u were talking speciafically about catholic units
Ghazis = Charge 6, Attack 5 (AP), Defense -4, Armor 1, Morale 8, so they're also great cheap units, especially on attack. Ghazis burn themselves down to very small remnants, sometimes dying to the last man. Head to head with Gallows, unless morale factors become predominant, the Gallows win due to the horrible defense factor of the Ghazis.
But you're right, I was stuck in a Catholic mindset when I made my original suggestion. Either unit does fine in the "fire and forget" role, although if I was playing a Muslim faction (and had the navy to reach Ireland), I wouldn't hesitate to incorporate Gallows into my armies - just to add a little variety to the mix!

[EatYerGreens]

Either unit does fine in the "fire and forget" role, although if I was playing a Muslim faction (and had the navy to reach Ireland), I wouldn't hesitate to incorporate Gallows into my armies - just to add a little variety to the mix!

On the MTW tech tree, the Gallowglass unit has the name in red text, which indicates Catholic only, IIUC.

Mind you, the Highland Clansmen symbol, right underneath it, has green text on it (all other items in green are Muslim) and symbols to indicate it's available to Catholic and Orthodox.

Work that one out!

[Geezer57]

On the MTW tech tree, the Gallowglass unit has the name in red text, which indicates Catholic only, IIUC.

Mind you, the Highland Clansmen symbol, right underneath it, has green text on it (all other items in green are Muslim) and symbols to indicate it's available to Catholic and Orthodox.

Work that one out!
Yep, you're right on the money with that one - I used Gnome to check the build requirements - Gallows and Highland Clansmen are both limited to Catholic factions. Oh well, a bit of "wishful thinking" on my part - so when playing Muslim, just be happy with Ghazis, eh? ~:cool: