Interactive History IV: Manstein's Woes [Archive] - Page 2

King Kurt

11-09-2005, 13:40

Well done Kraxis - this "what if" style of history is great - because it is what if!! everybody has their own idea of what might have happened, so there will always be debate, which is good for examining the heart of what happened as opposed the sketchy surface. I still believe my version of events are just as likely, but we could argue about that for ever.

One thought to ponder at the end of this story - what would have happened if the Eastern front had been "won" in some form by the Germans? Faced by with the whole of the German Army, you must assume D Day can not happen. Conversely, with Allied sea and air power, the Germans can't invade Britain. So what happens - I can't see the Allies coming to a peace with the Germans because if Germany dominates mainland Europe who can the allies trade with - their economies need the European markets. The rise of the USA as a superpower since WW2 shows the economic power Europe brings. So that begs the question of does the war continue into the late 40's as an air/ naval blockade war with nuclear weapons being used by the Allies as an alternative to invasion - it was what they did to Japan, after all - that seems a frightening scenario - fortunately it is precisely that - just a scenario.

I look forward to the next interactive history and hope to be part from the begining~:cheers:

Franconicus

11-09-2005, 14:08

Kurt,
Let us go on dreaming for a while. What if Germany had won in the East. Occupied Belarus and Ukraine? That would have released a lot of very experienced divisions, but it would also have created a big industrial potential.
So the Germans could have used their armies to prevent immidiate landings of the remaining allies. In 1943 the US airpower was not so strong, but strongly coming up. Concentrating the efforts on air defense the Germans would have stopped the bombings, I believe. I think most of the fighter squadrons fought in the east.

The US would have introduced the long range fighter escorts, just like they did. The Germans would have introduced the Me262 in big numbers to stop them. And they could have shipped all sensitive industry in the east.

Germany also would have increased the efforts in building the new Walter sub. This would have been a new chellange for the allies.

But in the end, there would have been nuking! ~:confused:

So scenario 2. Germany proclaims that the crusade against communism is over. It installs pseudo independant satelites all around Germany (Poland, Belarus, Baltic States, CSR, Croatia, Serbia, France, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Benelux ...). There is a peace conference. The nations agree on a trade unit and a political pact to prevent communism for all times. How would the US and GB have reacted then?

King Kurt

11-09-2005, 16:02

Franconicus
This one could run and run!

Your points about a "technology war" - Me 262, new U Boats etc - are well made. I still think that the allies would have won such a war - while Germany had an excellent collection of scientists, you always felt that the bureaucracy of the 3rd Reich coupled with the interference of Hitler would have held it back. Also moving the industry to the east might have protected it, but surely the target of nuclear weapons would have been the German people. The concept of Bomber Harris attacking Germany at night with nuclear weapons is horrifying. In the scenario we have just done,I wouldn't think the technology drive would have got going much before the end of 1944 - the men would help, but you need to set up infrastructure etc and that still would have to be done in occupied territory with all the security implications.

As for scenario 2, very difficult to tell - I think peace with Hitler still in control would be very unlikely - ignoring the feelings about what he had done, how could you trust him? - he had invaded most of europe, often attacking countries he was nominaly at peace with, so you would feel that peace was only possible once he had gone - would that have happened when it appeared that Germany was winning? The 1 attempt to get rid of him was when things looked black - and that failed.

The other untouched area is what about Japan? With no D Day do the Allies concentrate on knocking out Japan then turn their forces - particuarly the air and naval forces - on Germany? You could see a scenario with japan neutered by blockade and air raids being left to wither on the vine and it is Frankfurt and Munich that replace Hirosima and Nagasaki.

The trouble with "what if" history is there are too many "what ifs"!!! there is enough controversy over actual history, so this sort makes even more!! - still, nothing better than a good debate - especially as the result doesn't matter.~:cheers:

Franconicus

11-09-2005, 16:13

Kraxis, there is still one question open. What did we do wrong, or at least what would you have done in a different way?

DemonArchangel

11-09-2005, 16:45

Alrighty... rest up, fuel up, and gear up.

Get ready to launch an overwhelming offensive in Italy and Sicily to kick the allies out. Then relaunch an offensive into the Caucasus region in Russia to get at the oil fields.

Kagemusha

11-09-2005, 16:52

I think the next best move would be to call out Hitler to the front to witness this great victory. Have a cup of tea or coffee in your personal quarters with him.grab your side arm,and put a bullet in his head.
And then maybe end this bloody war.~;)

Kraxis

11-09-2005, 21:58

Kraxis, there is still one question open. What did we do wrong, or at least what would you have done in a different way?
Ohhh there were several mistakes, but unlike the more tactical decisions of Antiochus' Dilemma they could be corrected by the correct or neutral decisions after them, which was what happened.

One point where it nearly went completely wrong was when the initial attack was made. I cost a lot of tanks initially, limiting the offensive in its first days. Had the wrong decision been taken after that it is not unlikely that it could have ended right there.

A point about nuking Germany.
I don't think so. Nukes were weapons of threat since so few were available for years to come. Had Germany with Hitler in control been nuked it would have responded with a massive nervegas strike on London, Birmingham and every other large city in the hands of the Allies that could have been reached. The Allies knew this, and I'm sure they wouldn't have risked it. Japan got the bombs because she couldn't respond with anything but token attacks (at best a few subs could have gassed a few villages), so in that case it was a safe approach for the Allies.
Even 'Bomber' Harris wasn't that cynical, or even Curtis LeMay for that matter. They were not about to risk allies or own citizens.

A strong Germany nuked would also have screamed for revenge rather than give up, a weak Germany might have caved in and deposed Hitler and his cronies.

Franconicus

11-10-2005, 09:51

Kagemusha

11-10-2005, 19:44

posted by Franconicus:
kagemusha
Do you think that a German officer could have / should have / must have killed his Führer?
If yes, he should have done before, not after a successful battle!

The few assasination plans against Hitler,were conducted by the German Officers.The most high ranking officer who was suspected of trying to kill Hitler was Rommel,and he died becouse of that.Won Mannstein was not a nazi.He is one of the most highly respected German General war Marshalls.And i believe he didnt like what was happening in The Reich.After such a victory he would have such a popularity among german people and army,that i think he could have overthrown Hitler.The same reason is why the conspirators wanted Rommel to be a part of their plan,was becouse he was so popular,that if he had overthrown Hitler people could have accepted it.Sadly the plan went wrong like we all know it.
Officer should be officer,not a dog.:bow:

Kraxis

11-11-2005, 02:16

Kraxis I am not so sure about the nuking. The attack of Hamburg was not so different. They tried to destroy the whole city and kill as many civilists as possible. And they were damned successful. Germans did not react with chemicals. So why not use nukes if you have them?

It was a psycological barrier. Germany didn't respond with gas as officially the allies were still 'only' bombing the industry, a nuke can't be disguised as such. Besides, a gas attack on Britain would mean a gas attack in the other direction too. But if faced with a one bomb strike such as a nuke Germany would in terms of power have no option but to strike back with what she had... in this case nervegas and perhaps mustardgas (if the nervegas was expended), and I believe Germany was quite advanced in bloodgasses as well (quite possibly the nastiest of them all).

A nuke outside Wilhelmshaven would pehaps have made the Germans want peace, while a direct strike would urge them on instead. Remember that Japan was already on her knees with no possible chance of retaliation. If Germany was still strong and could strike back she would. I have no doubt. And in Hitler's mind the western allies were civilized, so if they so blatantly broke that image, he would stop at nothing to get revenge. Remember that he already did get his revenge for the bombing with the V1 and V2. The proportions were far from the same but he felt that he was striking back. A nuke would up the stakes a whole lot and Hitler would look for possibilities to hit back with equal power... And gas would be the answer.

Once more your interactive history is an excellent piece of work. And what is more - it is big fun to follow it. You really have the feeling that you are doing history. And learn a lot. Do you intent to make money out of it? Think about it. There will be many willing to buy this game!
You know, I have actually thought about it, but honestly I can't find the venue for it. Would you guys have paid to participate? No. So an internet version is out of the question, besides I would at best get something like 50$ from a story like this one. Far from the worth it is in time.
Bookform you say? Again not much of an answer. It would be extremely big (all choices and results must be included), and it would smell far away of those fantasy go-to books. I doubt it would survive...

Franconicus

11-11-2005, 10:26

You know, I have actually thought about it, but honestly I can't find the venue for it. Would you guys have paid to participate? No. So an internet version is out of the question, besides I would at best get something like 50$ from a story like this one. Far from the worth it is in time.
Bookform you say? Again not much of an answer. It would be extremely big (all choices and results must be included), and it would smell far away of those fantasy go-to books. I doubt it would survive...
Books are no good idea. Computer programs are ideal media for this kind of choice driven stories. I think you have two options:
1. An internet site were people get access with a paid code. Then they can play. You could even take money for every single story. If it works for porn why not for history ~D
2. Or you sell it on CD ROMs. Same setup. Then however you need somekind of distribution. Guess someone in the org can help.

The few assasination plans against Hitler,were conducted by the German Officers.The most high ranking officer who was suspected of trying to kill Hitler was Rommel,and he died becouse of that.Won Mannstein was not a nazi.He is one of the most highly respected German General war Marshalls....
There were also civilists trying to kill A.H.. However, they failed and he survived. ~:mecry: Confirmed him that he was the chosen one.
Of course military was the only org to start a putsch.

And i believe he didnt like what was happening in The Reich.After such a victory he would have such a popularity among german people and army,that i think he could have overthrown Hitler.The same reason is why the conspirators wanted Rommel to be a part of their plan,was becouse he was so popular,that if he had overthrown Hitler people could have accepted it.Sadly the plan went wrong like we all know it.
Officer should be officer,not a dog...
If memory serves well then Manstein said after the war that he did not do anything against Hitler because this would have resulted in a civil war. I think the end of WW1 and the myth that Germany lost just because of the riots stopped many military persons from acting against Hitler.
The question is why should anybody follow a Manstein putsch after an outstanding military success. The Russians are defeated. Fine! Hitler's concept works. Why worry about the west? And the holocaust? You can hardly believe it today!
No, a putsch was only possible when Germany faced desaster. Manstein needed a victory after the putsch.

But this is a very interesting topic. Maybe we should start another interactive for a Manstein putsch?

Kagemusha

11-11-2005, 12:48

Good idea Franc!~:) Kraxis how would you like about thatkind of subject?:jumping:

Franconicus

11-11-2005, 12:59

kagemusha,
I already received a license from Kraxis. So maybe I'll do it!

Kagemusha

11-11-2005, 13:10

Go ahead i think it would be very intresting.~:)

Kraxis

11-11-2005, 14:45

kagemusha,
I already received a license from Kraxis. So maybe I'll do it!
Yup... It is good to outsource... Nice income... $$$~;)

JimBob

11-12-2005, 00:35

The few assasination plans against Hitler,were conducted by the German Officers.The most high ranking officer who was suspected of trying to kill Hitler was Rommel,and he died becouse of that.Won Mannstein was not a nazi.He is one of the most highly respected German General war Marshalls.And i believe he didnt like what was happening in The Reich.After such a victory he would have such a popularity among german people and army,that i think he could have overthrown Hitler.The same reason is why the conspirators wanted Rommel to be a part of their plan,was becouse he was so popular,that if he had overthrown Hitler people could have accepted it.Sadly the plan went wrong like we all know it.
Officer should be officer,not a dog.
Mannstein loathed Himmler and Goering, and made fun of Hitler where it was safe, he taught his dog to sault on the command "Heil Hitler," but he was no Yorck. The only Marshal willing to resist Hitler was Kluge, but he lacked the prestige and power to stand against Hitler. Only Mannstein had the clout. Mannstein, when asked by a young aide planted by Tresckow, asked Mannstein who should save German in the event of defeat. Mannstein's reply was 'certainly not me.'

Franconicus

11-25-2005, 14:15

After reading these pages over and over there is only one question left: Kraxis, on which side did you fight?

Kraxis

11-25-2005, 14:30

After reading these pages over and over there is only one question left: Kraxis, on which side did you fight?
Mine...~;)
But honestly what did you mean by that?

Franconicus

11-25-2005, 14:48

Well it is clear that you do not know this by reading books. Guess you have been there, maybe even in a general's staff. So- on which side did you fight?

Kraxis

11-25-2005, 15:27

Well it is clear that you do not know this by reading books. Guess you have been there, maybe even in a general's staff. So- on which side did you fight?
Yes, I'm 112 years old now. I was a young colonel on Manstein's staff.~D

You can go a long way with imagination and a few good books as well can years of infohunting in general.

Franconicus

11-25-2005, 15:41

Yes, I'm 112 years old now. I was a young colonel on Manstein's staff.~D
Yeah, I guess I remember you. You were about 50 year old colonel and you had the same helmet you have today, hadn't you! ~:cheers:

Kraxis

11-25-2005, 15:44

Of course I did...

Kagemusha

11-26-2005, 05:13

dont they say so that what we do in life echos in eternity.~:)

Kraxis

11-28-2005, 15:15

Time for this little epic to slowly slide down to its designated retirement.

Franconicus

12-01-2005, 09:56

Kraxis,
I think it would be a shame if this story disappears forever. Could we have an archive for for these kind of retired stories?

Kagemusha

12-01-2005, 17:10

Maybe these interactive histories could be stored in the Mead Hall?~:)

discovery1

12-02-2005, 07:22

look in my sig.

Franconicus

12-05-2005, 13:46

Kraxis,

did you ever think of a two way interactive! You could devide your followers in two groups, make two threads and then just play the moderator. Dunno if this could work, but it would surely be big fun!

Kagemusha

12-05-2005, 14:11

I like the Idea!~:) It would be like chess.Only we should have locked teams so people dont go manipulating the other sides decisions. That could be the most ambitious Interactive History so far.It would be huge workload for Kraxis,but i belive you could pull that off.What say you Kraxis?:charge:

Kraxis

12-05-2005, 15:36

I'm afraid it would be too much... I would suddenly have to research the two sides equally.

But I think I have a candiate for this... Note my comment in this thread about another Interactive History. German Navy 1918: The Last Foray

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 08:03

Really? You have to do it anyway, don't you? Only the number of combinatin is increasing.
You could do a small scale history, the Armada or something like that.

King Henry V

12-07-2005, 12:37

Believe men, havoing two Interactive Histories on the go is hard work. I'm running mine both here and a TWC, I thought it would be fun to see which site does better, but it is quite hard work. So far it has been alright, but I'm dreading the time when two distinctly different and profound choices are made and I will have to be writing two different stories!

Kraxis

12-07-2005, 16:04

Lord Winter

12-07-2005, 16:11

Yes, that was what I feared too, but then I realized that the guys want two competing teams... As in the German Navy one side is German the other is British. That could be highly entertaining.

The problem with this is that the two sides can (and most likely will) cheat and look into the other thread to gain an advantage. Thus no choice will be made before the other side has made theirs...

I don't know how to fix that.
Theirs always the option to PM. Then have a thread were you can sign up for the game on whatever side they want

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 16:16

Right! Isn't it possible to close some threads for certain persons? Hey, you are a moderator now! Once the story is over you can lift the curtain. That would be great fun ~D

Kagemusha

12-07-2005, 16:19

Yes, that was what I feared too, but then I realized that the guys want two competing teams... As in the German Navy one side is German the other is British. That could be highly entertaining.

The problem with this is that the two sides can (and most likely will) cheat and look into the other thread to gain an advantage. Thus no choice will be made before the other side has made theirs...

I don't know how to fix that.

I think i know the answer to that problem. The teams could PM you the answers .Thatway the teams dont have a clue what the other team has decided before you continue the story and reveal what has happened.Thatway the other teams members could only know what options the enemy has if they try to spy them.~;)

Kraxis

12-07-2005, 16:22

PM could be done, but that leaves the problem that half the story comes from people discussing the events. Disagreeing with each other ect ect.
Besides, the choices will still be open to viewing for the other team, in which I would need to make it so that each choice has it's counter on the other side.

While I'm a moderator with full powers I can't selectively close threads. Either they are closed or they aren't.

I will have to think about this.

Franconicus

12-07-2005, 16:23

But there would not be any discussion within the teams. No, you need two different threads!

Kraxis

12-08-2005, 02:03

The PM system would still include two threads, just there would be no posts but mine and the discussion. But the discussion could be deemed as the shipcommanders talking over the radio, effectively giving away their thoughts to the enemy. So it would at their own risk they would discuss so the enemy team could follow and perhaps glean their selection.

Each round would be democratic, but with reason. PMs would be sent to me with the selections and at some point I would close the election, basically it would be open until I post the choice (at the same time in both threads of course), after that it would be closed.
In case of ties I would look at reasons for selections, so including that in the PM would be highly advantageous. So it would also be a case of convincing me. In fact good reasoning might convince me of a given choice early... Remember that this time there would be no 'right' and 'wrong' choice that I know of since the other team is also deliberating their choice.

Problem is that in this given case the British know that the German fleet is ready for something, which is a huge advantage for them. Also the teams will know what went wrong in any given case by looking at the other team's thread. So if a clash is broken off by one team the other will know where to look and what happened (such as when the Germans made their Gefechtskertwendung at Jutland, the British didn't know that the Germans had left for a long time and never truly found out how).

But perhaps I can create a group for each team. I know that the mod teams have their own forums. So a talk with Tosa might be in order.

But first the teams would need to be selected out here, and a thread with updates wold be needed too as newcomers tend to want to join I have noticed.

The last hurdle is quite simple... Numbers. There are preciously few regulars, such as you two Franc and Kage. Many come by and vote a few times or just follow the thread. That is fair enough as it adds numbers, but notice how many times I had to wait fairly long for the votes here.

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 08:26

Where can I enroll?:deal:

Kraxis, I think you can find a lot of possible twoway stories. The Spanish armada. Or Roman Civil War. Or Cesar against Vincetorix. Or Spartacus. Or David vs. Saul ~D

Kagemusha

12-08-2005, 12:00

This sounds great.Kraxis I hope you decide to try this.This should be lots of fun.I would like to enroll too.Maybe we should have a poll here in Monastery and see how many would be intrested in this.~:)

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 13:55

:bow:
And if noone else joins than it's just
kagemusha-san vs. Franconicus
with Kraxis as referee ~:cheers:

Kagemusha

12-08-2005, 15:21

Lol!~:cheers: A duel!:duel: Well im sure it wont go to that.

Franconicus

12-08-2005, 16:14

en garde :duel:

Ludens

12-08-2005, 18:19

I am willing to participate as well, although I have very little historical knowledge. But I think you are asking a bit too much if you demand from Kraxis that he writes a two-sided alternative history for us three (or more patrons, for that matter). Writing alternative histories is not an easy job by any means ( :bow: to Kraxis).

Kraxis

12-08-2005, 22:39

Yes, it is very hard, as you must be feeling now Franc.

It takes a lot of mind-time, conjuring up the various scenarios and options, and then getting them down on 'paper' takes a long time as well.

At the moment I feel positive towards this, but a lack of people would be a real killer. And there is the issue of exams and all that.

Btw, have you noticed how much this has come to be a textbased Wargame?

Kagemusha

12-09-2005, 00:44

Well we are Strategy gamers afterall!~;)

Lord Winter

12-09-2005, 02:06

i 'm in

Franconicus

12-09-2005, 07:58

Yes, it is very hard, as you must be feeling now Franc.

No, it is big fun. And it is a big honor to write for the three of you ~:) And some shadow men, of course ~;)

It takes a lot of mind-time, conjuring up the various scenarios and options, and then getting them down on 'paper' takes a long time as well.

True. But you can also dive into the scenario. Best thing is that I have no clue how my story will end. So I am really surprised. I think a two way story will be very interesting for you too!

At the moment I feel positive towards this, but a lack of people would be a real killer. And there is the issue of exams and all that.

Are you student or teacher? I always thought you were in the general staff!

Btw, have you noticed how much this has come to be a textbased Wargame?

It does not have to be. I tried to find a balance of military vs. politics. But you could also do some historical economic game. Do what you want, we will love to follow you ~:cheers:

Kraxis

12-10-2005, 00:40

I'm a student of history... 25 years of age. So I'm pretty far from a staffer.~;)

Franconicus

12-10-2005, 22:01

Didn`t you say you were 112? I am a bit confused:san_huh:

GoreBag

12-12-2005, 01:10

Could password-guarded subforums be created, like there are for the mod teams?

Kraxis

12-12-2005, 15:31

Didn`t you say you were 112? I am a bit confused:san_huh:
:san_grin:

My friend... A joke. But you already know that, you are merely baiting me to explain what you already know.:san_laugh:

NeonGod, that is my idea at the moment... My current problem is how to make the events fit. Would the choices of one team have a direct impact right away on the other team or would it be going on with a one round delay?

Franconicus

12-12-2005, 16:05

If you look at my Serialized Novel you find that several topics alternate. So in fact there are several stories tied together. This gives you enough time to react.

GoreBag

12-12-2005, 21:02

NeonGod, that is my idea at the moment... My current problem is how to make the events fit. Would the choices of one team have a direct impact right away on the other team or would it be going on with a one round delay?

Well, it depends. Are the two (or more?!) groups in direct competition? Indirect competition? Do they oppose each other, or are they both simply trying to achieve the same goal faster/better than the other team (s)? Would you prefer to run the simulation head-to-head (both teams act simultaneously), or causally? If a causal approach is taken, one team will have to start, which leaves the other team with the last decision (possibly).

Think of these two approaches as the difference between live play and penalty shots. The Simultaneous approach is like live play, where both teams struggle at the same time to gain the upper hand. The Causal approach is like penalty shots, where teams alternate actions in a much more controlled environment.

One call tell I play Dungeons and Dragons, eh?

Kraxis

12-12-2005, 23:56

The idea was for two teams to control their side, in this case the British and German navies. Then I would present them with their options and only post when both sides have made up their mind (so one side could be waiting for the other for a while).

So I'm thinking should the choices impact the other team right away or should it be delayed (as perhaps a similation of bad communication)... Bah, it will likely end up as a combination of both.

GoreBag

12-13-2005, 08:28

I think whether the impact is immediate or delayed should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

Kraxis

12-28-2005, 15:18

I have given this a lot of thoughts by now and I think I have come to a workable solution that wouldn't leave the 'game' closed to a lot of potential players.

One team would be here, and another be from another forum. I have two potential candidates for this. One is very much a naval grognard forum, the other is not too different from here. I will of course not mention them to you until it is over.

This way everybody here can chime in, and the same for the other team.

Also it is far too rigid to lay down rules on how chapters are done. Thinking over the options after various selections (I have already thought up a number of options and results) I have come to the realization that at time one team would need more chapters (and thus more options) than the other.

Franconicus

12-30-2005, 13:48

Kraxis

12-31-2005, 05:19

:scared: Another forum (I am the org, your forum! You shall not have other forii!)

Jokes aside! Sounds good! You think another forum can compete with this military focused one?

What will be the topic?:coffeenews:
Hehe... I'm uncertain about one, but they are not untested in the ways of war, in fact they pride themselves on tactics and strategy as well. They might, though, be a bit odd and have a tedency for jokes and wierds plays. I'm not certain they would be serious enough.

The other forum would be more than a match for you guys.
Since I have already made the setting Naval early 1918 (I have already desided that the org will be Germany), they would in the form of beign naval buffs have a good chance of putting up a very strong defense (or offense for that matter).