Refinery Outages and Gas

[Red Harvest]

This is going to get worse in a hurry. The analysts are way behind the curve. I've been watching the prices move in Houston: from 2.45 (it had declined) to 2.65, to 2.78, and now 3.30. As each store refills the prices go up.

I don't think we've seen anything yet. There are 14 refineries effected as far as I've heard. 5 or 6 are only at reduced rates and should come back up fully (if they haven't already) but the other 8 or 9 have bigger issues...even if they had electricity, water, and other resources, they would most likely be quite short handed. I can't imagine that most of their employees are really available. Even then, cleaning up and recommissioning is going to take time (and it is labor intensive.) I haven't had direct contact with any of them so I'm just guestimating, but I expect some long outages.

[Don Corleone]

Here in North Carolina, Governor Easley has asked everyone not to drive unless it's essential. We haven't received refined gasoline since Sunday (when the storm hit) and they estimate that we'll be out of gas by Sunday afternoon (some places already are). Gas is currently $3.75/gallon and climbing steadily.

[Aenlic]

The problem isn't supply. The problem is refining can't keep up with demand. And since a large percentage of this country's refining takes place in and around the Louisiana and Mississippi Gulf coast, we're in a world of hurt. Opening up the SPR is a meaningless gesture. Saudi's saying they'll increase production is a meaningless gesture. The oil doesn't do any good until it is refined. Even refining it in other countries first and shipping it here as gasoline won't help. Guess where the United States receives such shipments of pre-refined petroleum products? Louisiana, just south of New Orleans.

A quick way to solve this country's insatiable appetite for gasoline is to issue shoot to kill orders for anyone seen driving their gas-guzzling SUVs. Anyone in a non-military Hummer, shoot to kill. Anyone in a Ford Excursion or a Lincoln Navigator. Shoot to kill. If they're seen driving to a store only a block from their house in such a vehicle shoot to kill and hunt down any remaining family members and sterilize them so the moron genes aren't passed along. Garage all limousines and make the self-important idiots carpool on pain of death. For good measure, any oil company execs seen being chauffeured around in a gas-guzzling armored limo will be shot on sight, their relatives and pets shot, their houses razed and the land sown with salt and their neighbors sterilized. ~D

And last, but not least, bring our troops home from Iraq, where they waste gas driving about imposing democracy on people who should decide for themselves whether or not they want it (or whatever the raison d'jour for the War is today). Use those troops to restore order on the Gulf Coast. Any idea how much of this country's refining capacity goes to support military operations in Iraq? Look it up. Consider it an object lesson. ~D

[Don Corleone]

Glad to see you're being fair, calm and reasonable about all of this, Aenlic. Shoot anyone that engages in policies you don't agree with. Hmm... :balloon2:

[drone]

President Bush has actually used the word "Conserve".

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/01/news/bush_gas.reut/index.htm

Now we know it's serious. ~;)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This goes right nack to the hypocisy thread. For ever thirty years the left has oppossed increased drilling and new refineries or atomic powerplants. For these same amount of years those of us on the right have been saying this could happen . Well now it has . Talk about not being prepared. All these years weve been operating at the limit of what was being produced yet made no real attempt to address the issue. In fact we did all we could to facilitate the problem. Releasing the strategic oil supply wont help as the refineries cant refine it. I swear I didnt no this was going to happen when I started that thread. ~D

How is it every gas station has jumped up 50 cents a gallon overnight? This is a supply and demand problem and always has been. The problem for the most part has been an artificial short supply. If we had built the refineries that we asked for and started drilling in the artic and off the coast we wouldnt have the problems we have today. But of course its all Bush's and the conservatives fault.

This is not directed at you Red I know you didnt bring politics into this.

[Red Harvest]

Yes, it does go back to hypocrisy, but not like you think. Where would you put a refinery? The oil is offshore. You are going to build anything new along the coast if you build it. And in fact, that is where capacity is being added. The refineries inland where the oil is depleted have mostly shut down or are not expanded.

So your are looking at a few regions along coasts doing the bulk of the refining and will still be if new ones are built. If any one of these regions takes a major hit, supply will be cut. That's how "market efficiencies" tend to work, gigantism and infrastructure is favored over dispersed production.

I will also point out Gawain, that refineries have not been the limit (until the storm) because crude prices and gas are *now* moving idependently. They were not before, which is economic proof of what I was saying. I'm not sure of the percentage of refining that is out (on a bbl/day basis) but is looks like over 10% to me.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

At least you can take solace in the fact that you still only pay about half as much as us Europeans.

[Aenlic]

Glad to see you're being fair, calm and reasonable about all of this, Aenlic. Shoot anyone that engages in policies you don't agree with. Hmm... :balloon2:

Thus the smilies, sport. Maybe you missed them. If you specify which threads you intend to misread, I'll gladly flash sarcasm warnings all over any posts I might make in such threads - just for you. I'm helpful that way. :bow:

[Aenlic]

For ever thirty years the left has oppossed increased drilling and new refineries or atomic powerplants. For these same amount of years those of us on the right have been saying this could happen .

What, exactly, does nuclear power have to do with a current gasoline shortage? Or drilling for that matter? Nothing. The only part of your statement that has any relevance to the issue was the part about refining capacity. And I agree with you on that part. You also failed to mention that the left has been screaming about the need for conservation and sensible consumption and reducing demand all that time as well. And the right has been sticking their collective head in the sand and ignoring the whole issue of consumption. Typical of supply-sider insanity, I suppose. ~D

Do you suppose, thinking about it just a little, that the fact that this country consumes more than twice what it produces has anything at all to do with the problem? That we consume more than three times more than the next highest oil consumer? That if we lowered our demand to just the same as the next highest consumer, then we'd actually produce a 25% surplus and be able to export oil and have a positive trade surplus?

Nah. It's much easier to blame it all on supply of oil. After all, the oil companies make their profits from our consumption, not our conservation. ~D

[Red Harvest]

President Bush has actually used the word "Conserve".

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/01/news/bush_gas.reut/index.htm

Now we know it's serious. ~;)

Yep, so much for "conservation is not the answer."

In fairness, refineries are going to try to run at 90% of capacity most of the time for competitiveness reason, and this is peak season which means it should be 95% plus. So any outage is going to effect the gas price. A big one will effect it more, especially after 9 weeks of inventory decline because it is peak season.

It is the disconnect between oil and gasoline price that illustrates *this* event as being a disaster induced refining limitation.

[Don Corleone]

Thus the smilies, sport. Maybe you missed them. If you specify which threads you intend to misread, I'll gladly flash sarcasm warnings all over any posts I might make in such threads - just for you. I'm helpful that way. :bow:

Oh, okay. You can make any over-the-top, offensive statements you like, so long as you put a smiley at the end of it. Gotcha. I missed that rule in the Forum Rules. Thanks for the update, sport.

[drone]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/01/news/economy/pipeline/index.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like Colonial Pipeline and Plantation Pipeline are slowly getting services back up, as the power gets restored. Don't know what good this is going to do once they have drained their existing stock, if the refineries can't resupply them.

[Red Harvest]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/01/news/economy/pipeline/index.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like Colonial Pipeline and Plantation Pipeline are slowly getting services back up, as the power gets restored. Don't know what good this is going to do once they have drained their existing stock, if the refineries can't resupply them.

It will relieve some of those areas that have lost all gas supply in the short term. So regionally it will help.

[ichi]

Clearly, this has demonstrated the need to drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

oh, wait, hmm.

OK, this has demonstrated the need to increase our refinery capacity in the ANWR

~:cheers:

[Papewaio]

Well you could fight obesity and save gas and walk or bicycle...

As gas prices have risen in Australia the amount of motorcycles has increased dramatically.

And while in Taiwan where gas is relatively expensive to wages the amount of motorcycles and in particular scooters is massive... I have seen mums and four kids on a single scooter.

[Red Harvest]

Well you could fight obesity and save gas and walk or bicycle...


That's even a problem in many places. Texas seems to be re-doing some intersections and stuff to allow pedestrian traffic, but there are few sidewalks in many towns, and I've heard many a coworker violently opposed to them. It is distinctly pedestrian unfriendly down here.

When school is out, driving to work is so much easier. In the places I've lived in Texas, folks all tried to drive their kids to school even when it was only a block or two. Of course with the lack of sidewalks, the kids had to walk in the street. Makes me want to start into my "walked 5 miles uphill in the snow, each way" speech.

No sidewalks = no long range planning (or they would rather their kids played/walked in the street.)

[Redleg]

Makes me want to start into my "walked 5 miles uphill in the snow, each way" speech.


Well my walk to the bus stop was only 500 yards - and we normally rode the horses bareback to the gate to limit the amount of walking we did. ~D

My mom of course road her horse 2 miles to her bus stop when she was a kid growing up outside of Roswell, New Mexico. Often riding both ways being chased by UFO's. ~:eek:

~D

[PanzerJaeger]

Did anyone catch that FX made for TV movie a few months ago about a hurricane knocking out New Orleans and terrorists destablizing Saudi Arabia. The results were widespread chaos in all of america do to the lack of fuel.

The movie was pretty crappy, but its wierd that it is basically playing out in real life, besides the terrorist part.

[Xiahou]

I'm with Gawain again. This shows how tight our refining capacity was in the US. With this many refineries offline we're in some serious trouble, considering that most were running near or at capacity before hand.

[Red Harvest]

I'm with Gawain again.


~:eek:




This shows how tight our refining capacity was in the US. With this many refineries offline we're in some serious trouble, considering that most were running near or at capacity before hand.

We already knew how tight it was in the U.S., it's been that way for awhile.

This event shows that refineries weren't the oil production restriction before, so it proved the exact opposite of the refinery limit hypothesis you both were touting. The refinery outages are now effecting gasoline, but not oil price. The oil price change is far smaller and due to a shorter term oil production disruption. Contrast this with Ivan that effected oil, but not refining.

More U.S. refining capacity will help reduce U.S. gasoline price spikes due to refining outages, but not reduce oil cost because U.S. oil refining capacity is not setting oil prices.

[Papewaio]

If the US refinieries cannot process as much... does that mean the demand for crude will be down and cheaper prices for the rest of the world?

Don't think so as the companies will gouge as much as possible...

[Xiahou]

If the US refinieries cannot process as much... does that mean the demand for crude will be down and cheaper prices for the rest of the world?

Don't think so as the companies will gouge as much as possible...
Well, then as now, oil futures speculation is a significant portion of both oil and gasoline prices. The debate is how much of a premium that speculation is causing. Many economists predict that the oil market is in a bubble- I heard one predict today on the radio that oil prices will drop back down to the $30-40/barrel range sometime in the near future. I find that a little optimistic myself. However, before Katrina, with growing inventories, I was expecting to see some significant drops in gas/oil prices after the holiday weekend- but with so many refineries out... the situation has obviously changed.

[Red Harvest]

If the US refinieries cannot process as much... does that mean the demand for crude will be down and cheaper prices for the rest of the world?

Don't think so as the companies will gouge as much as possible...

It could. There is a chance that this will start a recession in the U.S. with a ripple effect in China and elsewhere. It is hard to say. I'm not sure if we were really poised for a recession. If we were, then I would expect Katrina to drive it or ignite it. Recessions usually reduce the growth in oil demand, thereby stabilizing or reducing prices.

On the other hand Katrina just made the housing market much tighter in some of the weaker areas. And rebuilding will have some stimulatory aspects so that could offset some of the major negatives from disruptions. This might also impact confidence of outside borrowers of U.S. debt or equities, which would not be pleasant for us.

There are quite a few concerns about the U.S. economy, growing debt, both govt. and personal, home values far exceeding replacement cost in many areas (potential paper wealth that could blow off), energy prices, and massive trade deficits. So far the economy is shaking these off.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This event shows that refineries weren't the oil production restriction before, so it proved the exact opposite of the refinery limit hypothesis you both were touting. The refinery outages are now effecting gasoline, but not oil price. The oil price change is far smaller and due to a shorter term oil production disruption. Contrast this with Ivan that effected oil, but not refining.

Wow for a while there I thought yu knew what you were talking about. The price of oil and gas are tied to eachother. Again do you think there was a sudden drop in gas supplies overnight to cause a 50 cent jump in the price. No . Its because their looking at the future and a coming shortage due to the inability to refine crude. If we had buit more refineries and oil wells once more we wouldnt be in this situtation. You can run on such a small margin of error. You earlier claimed that refeineries were ONLY running at 95 to 98 percent capacity. This doesnt leave much room for disruption.

[Strike For The South]

3.30 in houston jeez its still only 2.69 here sad 10 years ago it was 99 cents :embarassed:

[Sjakihata]

here in denmark, gas prices are insanely steep: $1.85162 for 1 litre of gas. That's DKR 11.

[Red Harvest]

Wow for a while there I thought yu knew what you were talking about. The price of oil and gas are tied to eachother. Again do you think there was a sudden drop in gas supplies overnight to cause a 50 cent jump in the price. No . Its because their looking at the future and a coming shortage due to the inability to refine crude. If we had buit more refineries and oil wells once more we wouldnt be in this situtation. You can run on such a small margin of error. You earlier claimed that refeineries were ONLY running at 95 to 98 percent capacity. This doesnt leave much room for disruption.

Gawain, Read what you just wrote and think about it for awhile. As I said before the price of OIL was not being limited by refining. You bought the Saudi line. If we shut off refining in the U.S. enough, oil prices worldwide will fall, because we are an net importer, and this would reduce our need for imports. Myth Busted.

There is not a huge supply of gasoline just lying around in each region. If you want to weather spikes you will need to do something about that.

You can go on with the line about building refineries in the U.S., but it doesn't make economic sense to those running them. As they see the need for capacity they add it. If you can make a business case for big new refineries, be my guest... That isn't the way business works in this country, we've been increasing productivity to the nth degree or don't you remember? Just in time deliveries, decreasing inventory, maximizing capacity utilization. These are the market efficiencies business strives for. You want them to reverse course. GOOD LUCK!!!

[Don Corleone]

Red, I hear what you're saying, and you're making some good points. BUT (there's always one ~D ) you're not taking into account artificial market constraints. The people who run the refineries have been trying to build new refinery capacity for 15 years, and every time they do, the Audobon Society and the rest of the usual suspects gangs up to strongarm some judge into issuing a legal ruling to block the construction. Or the EPA yanks permits for no good reason. Or a bunch of other hamstring efforts. I agree with your reasoning, but you're overlooking some critical external factors that are preventing market forces from operating properly.

[Red Harvest]

3.30 in houston jeez its still only 2.69 here sad 10 years ago it was 99 cents :embarassed:

That 3.30 seems limited to a few stations now. The others are running about 2.79 to 3.00 at the moment. Houston tends to be a little higher than some areas, I think it is the required blends, but I'm not sure. The gasoline market is not my thing.

[English assassin]

Red, I hear what you're saying, and you're making some good points. BUT (there's always one ~D ) you're not taking into account artificial market constraints. The people who run the refineries have been trying to build new refinery capacity for 15 years, and every time they do, the Audobon Society and the rest of the usual suspects gangs up to strongarm some judge into issuing a legal ruling to block the construction. Or the EPA yanks permits for no good reason. Or a bunch of other hamstring efforts. I agree with your reasoning, but you're overlooking some critical external factors that are preventing market forces from operating properly.

For real? I was just going to do a post pointing out (well, repeating, really) that its most ecomonically efficient for a corporation to sweat its assets, so a free marketeer really shouldn't expect the USA to have, say, a spare 25% of capacity sitting idle just in case a once in 100 years storm hits. But if the refimeries were in fact pressing for more capacity before (presumably not in the gulf), I will shut up.

I doubt it will affect us much in the UK, since only about 20% of our petrol price is the cost of the actual petrol anyway. Whoop de whoop, for once paying high taxes is great. errr :dizzy2:

[Ser Clegane]

That 3.30 seems limited to a few stations now. The others are running about 2.79 to 3.00 at the moment. Houston tends to be a little higher than some areas, I think it is the required blends, but I'm not sure. The gasoline market is not my thing.

I talked to a colleague in North Carolina today and she mentioned that there were quite a number of gas stations actually running out of gas there ~:eek:

What share of the refinery capacity is currently effected?

I heard ballpark numbers in the range of 20% of capacity but that was rather hearsay...

I guess we will see quite some price peaks on the petrochemicals spot market as well over the next weeks/months

[Don Corleone]

I talked to a colleague in North Carolina today and she mentioned that there were quite a number of gas stations actually running out of gas there ~:eek:

What share of the refinery capacity is currently effected?

I heard ballpark numbers in the range of 20% of capacity but that was rather hearsay...

I guess we will see quite some price peaks on the petrochemicals spot market as well over the next weeks/months

Yep, half the stations in the city of Charlotte are out. Greensboro is out at about 1/3. The price has increased quite a bit, and the Governor has asked that all non-essential driving be cancelled.

We currently receive 90% of our refined gasoline from the gulf refineries, through a pipeline. Those pipelines are now pumping ~30% of what they were 5 days ago. At current rates, they expect the entire state to be dry by next Wednesday. South Carolina, Georgia, Tenessee, Florida, Alababama, and of course, Mississipi & Lousiana are in much of the same pickle.

[drone]

I talked to a colleague in North Carolina today and she mentioned that there were quite a number of gas stations actually running out of gas there ~:eek:

What share of the refinery capacity is currently effected?

I heard ballpark numbers in the range of 20% of capacity but that was rather hearsay...

I guess we will see quite some price peaks on the petrochemicals spot market as well over the next weeks/months
I just drove by a Shell station that had $5.99 a gallon on the sign. Sinice an Exxon Station down the road still had $3 a gallon, I'm assuming that Shell station is out, or close to it (or just gouging like mad).

[yesdachi]

Does anyone know what kind of preparations gas stations make to handle a situation where their regular gas distributor is unavailable? Most companies I work with have back-up vendors and some have back-ups to the back-ups. Can gas stations use other vendors for gas? A gas station cant make money without a product, as greedy as they seem to be I would think they would have a back-up to their back-up.

Perhaps if they have sold their entire supply at double the regular price they don’t care. ~:confused:

[Don Corleone]

The problem isn't the distributor, it's the source. If you follow the flow of refined gasoline around the country, it all flows through pipelines and rail cars from I believe 5 major refineries. They're not interconnected. If your backup, and your backup's backup, and so on are all connected to the same pipleline, there ain't much you can do.

[Red Harvest]

Yep, half the stations in the city of Charlotte are out. Greensboro is out at about 1/3. The price has increased quite a bit, and the Governor has asked that all non-essential driving be cancelled.

We currently receive 90% of our refined gasoline from the gulf refineries, through a pipeline. Those pipelines are now pumping ~30% of what they were 5 days ago. At current rates, they expect the entire state to be dry by next Wednesday. South Carolina, Georgia, Tenessee, Florida, Alababama, and of course, Mississipi & Lousiana are in much of the same pickle.

Yes, that was anticipated/feared early on, the pumping stations are coming back, but at reduced rates. Pipelines are very expensive to build and maintain (so we get back to the market forces part again.) Interconnection will be limited since most of the time it would not be useful. It is going to be a major crisis regionally. I'm sorry it is going to hit you guys so hard, I hope they figure out some sort of response. Some stations in rural areas here that had trouble arranging deliveries didn't raise their price outlandishly, instead they limited folks to ~10 gallons each.

This storm hit oil production, nat. gas production, refining, and distribution really hard. Nail the hub with something this big, and you have to expect major trouble.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, Read what you just wrote and think about it for awhile. As I said before the price of OIL was not being limited by refining. You bought the Saudi line. If we shut off refining in the U.S. enough, oil prices worldwide will fall, because we are an net importer, and this would reduce our need for imports. Myth Busted.

Thats what you claim I say the opposite. So your saying if we shut off refining here the price of oil worldwide will go down? Have you lost your mind? How will that make us need less gas. It means we will have to import all our oil and refined products instead of a bit more than half as we currently do now driving worldwide prices through the roof. Hell according to this logic we should have shut them down a longtime ago. Myth busted.

[Red Harvest]

Thats what you claim I say the opposite. So your saying if we shut off refining here the price of oil worldwide will go down? Have you lost your mind? How will that make us need less gas. It means we will have to import all our oil and refined products instead of a bit more than half as we currently do now driving worldwide prices through the roof. Hell according to this logic we should have shut them down a longtime ago. Myth busted.

Gawain, now I understand why you are having trouble with all this. If we shut down our refineries we will not be using nearly as much oil and gasoline because we would only be able to import some fraction. Locally, at home our prices would be astronomical. World prices would tumble because there would be global oversupply. We wouldn't benefit from it.

That would persist for some time until global demand caught up or we adjusted to importing gasoline (infrastructure changes for transport, etc.) It would persist longer since it would likely cause global recession. But the excess would be soaked up by the world eventually (on the scale of years) as demand grew.

You share a problem common to many other Americans: the inability to separate gasoline from oil in their minds. Yes, they are related, but they are not the same thing. The second prooblem you share with many others is that you cannot tell the difference between regional and global impacts/markets/driving forces.

[Xiahou]

Thats what you claim I say the opposite. So your saying if we shut off refining here the price of oil worldwide will go down?I bet prices on everything would go down- it'd be called a recession. ~;)

I don't know why someone would advocate that though...

[Steppe Merc]

It's over 3 dollars hear... and I thought 2.65 was nasty. And I was waiting for prices to go down to fill up my car (I don't drive much, but will once school starts), and I still have a half tank. Oh well.

[Xiahou]

It's over 3 dollars hear... and I thought 2.65 was nasty. And I was waiting for prices to go down to fill up my car (I don't drive much, but will once school starts), and I still have a half tank. Oh well.
Well, on the bright side- they're expecting the affected pipelines to be back to capacity by the end of the holiday weekend and many of the refineries are expected to be operating again within two weeks.

Combine that with the EPA fuel blend waiver and the end of the peak summer driving season and it's still reasonable to expect at least some price relief in the coming days. (prices are currently $3.19 here- from 2.53 tuesday)

edit: I'd be interested in hearing what backroom members think should be done about the high gas prices/shortages as a result of Katrina? Many politicians are beginning to talk about cutting fuel taxes temporarily or even legislating price controls. So as not to "poison the well" I'll hold my opinion for now. ~D

[Red Harvest]

edit: I'd be interested in hearing what backroom members think should be done about the high gas prices/shortages as a result of Katrina? Many politicians are beginning to talk about cutting fuel taxes temporarily or even legislating price controls. So as not to "poison the well" I'll hold my opinion for now. ~D

Price controls would create a greater shortage, since they would artificially sustain demand. They would be counterproductive to maintaining supply. Might not matter if supply is restored soon enough though.

Cutting fuel taxes would have a very small impact, prices have already risen more in the past 72 hours than the average total federal and state fuel taxes. It would also be counterproductive to maintaining supply.

This comes down to whether we want to treat the symptoms, or face the problem. The problem is a bonafide shortage due to distribution and refining. Price is not the source of the problem, it is a symptom. Most likely we will treat the regional symptoms and effectively cap the price short term. Unfortunately, that drives demand in the wrong direction for dealing with a shortage. Hopefully, with the distribution being restored, the spikes will halt.

It does illustrate how inelastic gasoline consumption is in the short and even mid term (as of course does the run up in prices over the past two years or so.) It takes a lot of price movement to change gasoline use substantially.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Wow for once I totaly agree with Red Harvest. One thing I heard the otherday disturbed me. It was that if we all switched to hybrid cars today in 5 years oil consuption would be right back where it is today.

[Steppe Merc]

Huh. Well while while that is not great, it is better than nothing. ~;)

But I agree, we can't expect to just adjust the prices. We need to begin the adjustment to alternative fuel source now, because we are already seeing how fickel the gas supply and prices can be.

edit: They are expecting the prices to go back down? Good, I can wait a while to buy any gas. I'll just bum rides off my parents. ~D

[Ser Clegane]

At the gas station in our street gas prices went from 1.27 EUR/liter last weekend to 1.47 today :help:

EDIT: But don't get me wrong - I am aware that these are currently rather petty problems...

[Kagemusha]

In Finland the gas price elevated into 1,5 euro/liter.Its alltime high in here.

[Steppe Merc]

What is that in American dollars? I know a euro is more than a dollar, but...


But don't get me wrong - I am aware that these are currently rather petty problems...
Yeah, I feel bad about complaining about gas prices when people are dying...

[Kagemusha]

What is that in American dollars? I know a euro is more than a dollar, but...

Euro is roughly 1,25 US dollars and one gallon is roughly 3,8 litres so in Finland one gallon of gasoline would be 7,13 dollars.If i got it right. ~;)

[Steppe Merc]

~:eek: Yikes.

[Kagemusha]

Tell me about it. ~:mecry:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The big difference is you people dont drive anywhere. ~D THe US is huge compared to most of your countries. We think nothing of driving 1000 miles. The automoblie is far more a part of our culture. Most of us would be lost without one.

[Kagemusha]

Gawain dont generalize.Finland has roughly the same amount of area as Germany and we have Five million people.If you ever pay a visit here i would be happy to drop you in the middle of Lapland and you can go find a busstop from there. ~D

[Ironside]

It's common to drive atleast 55km (34 miles) to daily work over there? And I'm living in the population dense area, so you can use public transportation with relative ease. ~;)
1.65 dollars/liter here

kagemusha
Don't be so evil, atleast give him a bike. ~;) I mean can the org survive without him for a month? ~D

[Red Harvest]

It's common to drive atleast 55km (34 miles) to daily work over there? And I'm living in the population dense area, so you can use public transportation with relative ease. ~;)
1.65 dollars/liter here

Yep, 34 miles *one way* is not uncommon. Urban sprawl is a big part of it. I had a coworker who used to drive 99 miles one way each day before we started working together--he and his wife worked in different cities.

Volume public transport in the U.S. is limited to a few cities.

[Ironside]

Yep, 34 miles *one way* is not uncommon. Urban sprawl is a big part of it. I had a coworker who used to drive 99 miles one way each day before we started working together--he and his wife worked in different cities.

Volume public transport in the U.S. is limited to a few cities.

Interesting. How many hours do those people spend on actually go to thier working place? (one way)

[Kagemusha]

You are right Ironside :bow: .We cant abandon the president of the conservative club into lapland.But if i give him a laptop and GPRS connection to the internet so he could post about our leftist public transportation on his personal experience. :evilgrin:

[Ironside]

You are right Ironside :bow: .We cant abandon the president of the conservative club into lapland.But if i give him a laptop and GPRS connection to the internet so he could post about our leftist public transportation on his personal experience. :evilgrin:

Trow in some extra batteries for the laptop and we got a deal. :deal2:

Gawain is an ex-marine so food shouldn't be a problem and even I can handle the water supplies in that area. ~;)

Uhm, Gawain feeling for a vacation in pleasant Scandinavia? Kagemucha and I can pay for it. ~:wave: :devilish:

[Kagemusha]

Trow in some extra batteries for the laptop and we got a deal. :deal2:

Gawain is an ex-marine so food shouldn't be a problem and even I can handle the water supplies in that area. ~;)

Uhm, Gawain feeling for a vacation in pleasant Scandinavia? Kagemucha and I can pay for it. ~:wave: :devilish:

I think i can get some batteries. ~;) Yes drinking water shouldnt be a problem just find a creek and drink and if you are afraid of germs boil the water before.Altough i would be worried about Gawains health when he would start to shoot raindeers.Saami people might get bit moody. :charge:

[Ironside]

I think i can get some batteries. ~;) Yes drinking water shouldnt be a problem just find a creek and drink and if you are afraid of germs boil the water before.Altough i would be worried about Gawains health when he would start to shoot raindeers.Saami people might get bit moody. :charge:

Well they haven't meet an ex-US marine before :rifle:

Ofcourse it's probably quite a few Saami with fjälljägarutbildning (equals about the best reglar units we have here and they are trained speciffically for the terrain we're talking about here)
:thinking2:


:idea:

I've gotten an idea for a new reality show here. ~:thumb:

[Kagemusha]

Great Idea. ~:cheers: I have always wondered why those "survivors" are always in some tropical Island.Lets put them into arctic forest.I prefer winter time. ~D

[Ironside]

Well if you take the average "survivor" cast, half of them would be dead after the first episode. ~D

Atleast surviving skills would be needed then... :sneaky:

[Kagemusha]

Yes the winter would be too hard for those poor buggers. ~;) But maybe at summertime.I go to Lapland almost every summer to fish with my mates.We have been walking down the rivers for over a week sometimes only food we carryied with us was dry dark bread, spam,salt and Vodka.The rivers are full of trouts and you can eat berryes if you want something sweet.My friend has a cottage in half way between Inari and Ivalo,which we have been used as base.

[Lemur]

Great Idea. ~:cheers: I have always wondered why those "survivors" are always in some tropical Island.Lets put them into arctic forest.I prefer winter time. ~D
It will never happen. How can they get lingering shots of men and women in semi-nude conditions in an arctic environment? Bare flesh is very important to the survival of Survivor.

[Kagemusha]

It will never happen. How can they get lingering shots of men and women in semi-nude conditions in an arctic environment? Bare flesh is very important to the survival of Survivor.

Its hot in Lapland at summer but if they would be semi-nude the mosquitos would eat them alive. :grin:

[Ironside]

Sounds nice kagemusha. :bow:
Not that much of an outdoor person myself, I prefer some civilisation when sleeping. Tent's aren't that fun. Haven't got much experience about fishing and hunting either.


Its hot in Lapland at summer but if they would be semi-nude the mosquitos would eat them alive.

But you could put them above the tree line. But then it's probably too cold again most of the time. :earmuffs:

[Kagemusha]

Thanks Ironside sama :bow: .Its nice to go hiking sometimes.When you get back home soft bed is like heaven after a week in tent or when the weather was nice we slept outside in sleeping bags. ~:)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Interesting. How many hours do those people spend on actually go to thier working place? (one way)

Around here if you work in NYC its usually about 3 or 4 hous a day. The average american now spends more time driving to work than going on vaction, over 100 hours a year.


On good days, it took Jen Wells 20 minutes to get to work, but the good days were rare. Usually, in fact, it took the 26-year-old art director up to an hour to get to her office in downtown Atlanta. Finally, she had had enough. So, like millions of Americans, Wells traded in the stress, tolls, and gas bills for a place in town and gave up the lousy commute. "It's the hassle factor," she says.

Traffic, everyone knows, is one of the bigger hassles of modern life. But just in time for Memorial Day, a blizzard of brand-new data confirms just how bad congestion has become. Since 1982, while the U.S. population has grown nearly 20 percent, the time Americans spend in traffic has jumped an amazing 236 percent. In major American cities, the length of the combined morning-evening rush hour has doubled, from under three hours in 1982 to almost six hours today. The result? The average driver now spends the equivalent of nearly a full workweek each year stuck in traffic.

.


Few political issues touch more Americans' daily lives than traffic. On a typical day, the average married mother with school-age children spends 66 minutes driving–taking more than five trips and covering 29 miles. Single moms like Linda Turner, of Chicago's South Side, spend even longer behind the wheel. Each day, Linda rouses her three children at 5 a.m. so she can leave the house by 7. The ride to school is only 15 miles, but it takes 45 minutes to an hour. Then it's on to her job, where she arrives at 8:30–totally wrung out. The return trip, especially if there are after-school activities to plan around, is usually worse. One night, Turner says, "I was coming home from work and every expressway I tried was jammed. Finally I was so angry, I rolled up the windows of the car and just screamed. I just let out a big 'uggghhh.' It didn't make me feel any better, and I was still sitting there."


Catch-22. Will building new highways help people who don't want to use mass transit or who can't afford to live where it's available? Not really. Consider what it would take just to accommodate the projected growth in traffic in San Diego over the next 20 years if auto dependency isn't reduced. San Diego is expected to grow by 1 million persons by 2020. If current patterns continue, that would mean an additional 685,000 cars. Today, there are five parking spaces available for every car in San Diego and parking is still a problem. To find sufficient parking spaces for another 685,000 cars, the city would need an additional 37 square miles of parking lots.


So, embrace change. A recent survey sponsored by Smart Growth America, a new coalition of public-interest groups, asked a cross section of Americans: "Which of the following proposals is the best long-term solution to reducing traffic in your state? Build new roads; improve public transportation, such as adding trains, buses and light rail; or develop communities where people do not have to drive long distances to work or shop." Three quarters of respondents called for either improving mass transit or developing less auto-dependent communities; just 21 percent called for building new roads. Talk about a tipping point. America's long love affair with the car, it seems, may have finally soured into a less healthy relationship, one based not on freedom but on its opposite.

You see its coming sooner than you think.

American Gridlock (http://www.bicyclecommuter.com/AmericanGridlock.htm)

Of course I live with the worst gridlock in the US if not the world. I average well over 100 miles a day in my car and probably 6 or 7 hours a day on the road. Now if I can just get a license.


Uhm, Gawain feeling for a vacation in pleasant Scandinavia? Kagemucha and I can pay for it.

Send me the airline tickets Ill be there with bells on.

[Kagemusha]

Gawain i dont think we have that much money with Ironside after our huge taxes. ~;) But if you ever happen to stumble here in Finland i would be honoured to grab a beer with you.I havent actually ever met a marine in person. :bow:

[Steppe Merc]

Just to add in, my dad has to drive a bunch to work everday. He sometimes takes the train (he still has to drive a half hour to get to the train station), but when he drives it's over two hours back and forth (I think).
The problem is urban sprawl. Few people live in the same place they work, because of the cars.

[Ironside]

Around here if you work in NYC its usually about 3 or 4 hous a day. The average american now spends more time driving to work than going on vaction, over 100 hours a year.

Hmm, about worst case scenario were I live. :thinking:

Less time getting to work, less workhours, much more vacation. Europe sound much nicer to me ~D

And Gawain I assume you got internet in the car right? ~;)

Bells on?? ~:confused: ~:confused:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And Gawain I assume you got internet in the car right?

No way. I have an old 1986 Honda Accord. Im gonna have to get something now with better gas milage. Too bad its a great old car.

[Ironside]

No way. I have an old 1986 Honda Accord. Im gonna have to get something now with better gas milage. Too bad its a great old car.

Were do you find the time to drive 6-7 hours a day, work and beat JAG in posting here at the forum? You do sleep right? ~D

And you still haven't said what you meant with those bells.


Send me the airline tickets Ill be there with bells on.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Were do you find the time to drive 6-7 hours a day, work and beat JAG in posting here at the forum? You do sleep right?

I do it in spurts. I work for myself. Im one of the last door to door salesmen around . Ill go out and drive around(work) for a few hours and then get on a comp somewhere for a bit and then go back out. And no I cant sleep for more than a few hours straight four at the most. Ill throw in a few posts and go back to sleep ~;)

[Aenlic]

And you still haven't said what you meant with those bells.

It's a common colloquial expression, Ironside. It's used to express eagerness to attend after an invitation.

From Word-Detective.com (http://www.word-detective.com/102603.html)


Dear Word Detective: You can make me look really smart if you know the origin of the phrase "with bells on." I know, why should you care about making me look smart? Still, it would be great to impress my friends. -- Michael Rafferty, via the internet.

We'll do our best. With his question Mr. Rafferty included an e-mail concerning a get-together of friends, one of whom encouraged the others to "be there with bells on." And indeed this phrase is used almost exclusively in the context of a social invitation, where the assurance that "I'll be there with bells on" means that one's attendance will be eager, enthusiastic and energetic.

The question, of course, is what bells have to do with showing up for a party or dinner date. The phrase "with bells on" seems to have first appeared in this sense in the early 20th century, and there are two theories about the bells. One is that the reference is to the costume of a court jester, including a fool's cap festooned with bells, thus perhaps alluding to the speaker's intention to appear "dressed to the nines" and ready to boogie. The other theory harks back to the days of horse-drawn carriages, when on special occasions the horse's harness might be decorated with festive bells.

Interesting enough, although "with bells on" is primarily heard today in the US, the British have a venerable equivalent in the expression "with knobs on," also meaning more generally "with embellishments" or simply expressing emphasis. So while you might hear a British friend agree to show up at your party "with knobs on," it's also not uncommon for someone who has borne the brunt of an insult to reply, "Same to you, with knobs on."

Just helping out Gawain, who appears to be suffering from a unique combination of sleep deprivation and travel fatigue which caused him to miss your question. ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Just helping out Gawain, who appears to be suffering from a unique combination of sleep deprivation and travel fatigue which caused him to miss your question.

Yeah I missed it the first time. You beat me to the punch and saved me the trouble on the second. Funny how you expect people to know such things . I thought everyone knew that expression. But then I never heard with knobs on before.

[Aenlic]

We use colloquial and idiomatic expressions every day without really thinking about them, in whatever language we call our own. They become more obvious here where we have so many people from all over the world sharing ideas.