Tolkien's Fantasy World Too True To be Fantasy ? [Archive]

Aenlic

09-04-2005, 22:03

Tolkien did indeed deny that his writings were in any way allegorical. He did admit that his experiences in war had a great effect on his stories, though. Many people have tried to claim some correspondence between the Lord of the Rings and WWII, particularly an imagined similarity between Hitler and Sauron. This is, of course, patently absurd. Tolkien began writing the stories during WWI, while serving in the trenches, including being sent to the horrors of the Somme. If any war affected the stories, it would be that war. Most of the basic foundations for his stories were laid long before WWII and the rise to power of Hitler.

QwertyMIDX

09-04-2005, 23:15

There is some serious Racism in there though, that's all real world inspiration.

Seamus Fermanagh

09-04-2005, 23:29

If you're looking for prime inspiration search the celtic lore of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Manx, and some of England's western stretches.

Influenced by the great conflicts of the early 20th, probably, though magic rings, famous swords, dragons and trolls are classical more than fascist. The Hobbits' collective isolationism and its inability to protect them probably reflects his own experience more than any other.

And don't discount his buddies down at the pub -- a fairly bright group despite all that English ancestry. ~;)

Seamus

Steppe Merc

09-05-2005, 00:53

econ21

09-05-2005, 00:59

There's a sort of affection for a fading rural England in some of the world - Saruman is ripping up trees to fuel his ironworks while the Shire could be any idealised English Home County.

It also seemed to me - not least from watching the films - was that the core message of the Lord of the Rings was the need to bravely fight evil. That message would seem very much of its time for an Englishman living in the shadow of two world wars.

AntiochusIII

09-05-2005, 01:47

Viewing from a pessimistic point of view, Tolkien's work can be recognize as racism, as well. With the "evils" in the "wild and unexplored lands of the East" or the Haradrim representing...others...

However, it is pointless, even stupid, to accuse Tolkien of racism, considering the age he lived in.

One would think Elendil's two kingdoms (Arnor and Gondor) are representatives of the two Roman empires.

Shire itself represents Tolkien's ideal "rural Britain." Carefree, ignorant, happy, fertile, but with hidden strength.

The lost Numenor is recognized by many (including Tolkien himself) as an Atlantis of Middle Earth.

Aenlic

09-05-2005, 02:33

Tolkien was an admitted anti-semite. It doesn't get talked about much because his works sort of overshadow his negative side. No one is perfect.

His love for and feeling of loss for the English countryside is real. He talked about it quite a bit in his later letters. He grew up in the West Midlands, in a little village just south of Birmingham. So he was exposed to the rampant industrial growth of Birmingham, as well as the rural life of the small villages and farms there. I think that juxtaposition, combined with the horrors of WWI (nearly every friend he had from school died in WWI) created the scene in his mind that became the backdrop of his written world. He composed most of what was later published as the "Lost Tales" while recovering from trench fever for the last two years of the war.

PanzerJaeger

09-05-2005, 03:04

Tolkien was an admitted anti-semite. It doesn't get talked about much because his works sort of overshadow his negative side. No one is perfect.

Hehe, its amazing what can be forgiven when you like the finished product.

I never understood the bid deal about the Lord of the Rings books. Pretty standard "quest" novels.. nothing particularly great about any of them in my opinion. Its a motif thats been done countless times. I think Star Wars did it much better. (And the movies were just stupid..)

Byzantine Prince

09-05-2005, 03:09

Fiction is always based on some fact. Even fantasy fiction.

I hate Star Wars. LOTR rewls!

Soulforged

09-05-2005, 03:20

If i'm correct the hobbits were based on reality. The inspiration came from the tipical englishman of the period, at least that's what he said.

Reverend Joe

09-05-2005, 04:10

PanzerJaeger- The distinctive factor in Lord of the Rings is the mythos and educated history behind them, not to mention excellent writing (except for the 5th book; it gets kinda thick around then.) Tolkien created an entire history behind the books, albeit inadvertantly (it's a long story)- and it is this entire backdrop that really makes the books stand out against the other quest/fantasy books of the time.

i never read the Star Wars books- and I had no motivation to, not after seeing the first 3 movies (meaning the early ones, not the ones that just came out. I hate having to explain that.)

Ironside

09-05-2005, 07:21

There are many rumors J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth being inspired by the real world. It is something impossible for a writer not to be effected by his/her reality but even every race is assigned to a real one by some people. Although I heard that Tolkien had denied the reality basis of his fantasy world, there are certain things you easily can relate to the reality.

Any info's / comments ?

Many of the stories in Silmarillon were found in the Lost Tales, were it was quite obvoius that the intent was that it had happened in England for a long time ago.

Del Arroyo

09-05-2005, 07:57

The Tolkien stories, IMO are most definitely allegorical.

The books are all about a struggle against the industrial revolution. It is clear to me from reading his books that he feels the dehumanizing elements of industrialization, and the low value of human life in "ant-like eastern races" represent the epitome of evil. That if we didn't wake up and fight back, crookedly-learned wisemen and their imported Chinese drones would turn the world into a smoking, filthy, industrial hell.

(It is also evident that while he in LOTR good triumphs, Tolkien believed the evils of industrialism to be damned near and probably totally unstoppable. Note the seductive evil power of the One Ring. If you eschew industrialism's power, you are powerless to fight it, but if you fight industrialism with industrialism, you will merely be consumed and assimilated into the black night of hell to come. In LOTR the only way to stop it was through trust in one small, pure-hearted Hobbit sent on an illogical and improbable mission-- but in the Real World there are no Cracks of Doom.)

At least that's my take on his message. Not saying I really agree with it, by the way. But if you consider his experiences, he had a valid viewpoint, and LOTR is a good piece of fiction, regardless.

DA

P.S.: As far as literary merit, I actually liked The Hobbit a bit better. LOTR is too dense, and has too much background, if we're talking straight literature. Though obviously it's those aspects that give it its niche.

ichi

09-05-2005, 09:08

Some concepts are universal to the human experience. The same issues of valor, domination, heroism, and the struggle between 'good' and 'evil' found in the trilogy are part of world history.

One of the best works in all of literature, BTW.

ichi :bow:

Ja'chyra

09-05-2005, 09:50

As much as I hate to say it I have to agree with PJ here.

While the books are good they are by no means the best, I know he must have put a lot of effort into them but so have many other fantasy writers, like George RR Martin, Steven Erikson and Robert Jordan, and some of them have come up with much more intricate, absorbing worlds in my opinion.

Also trying to draw parallels with the real world is like pissing in the wind, pointless and the odds are you'll just make a mess ~D , no-one knows or will ever know as he's dead. It's a pet peave of mine when you see people trying to give deeper meanings to things, like dirty bed sheets that some call art, and all they do is end up sounding pompous, slightly foolish and very annoying, not that any of you are like that ~:eek: ~:grouphug:

LeftEyeNine

09-05-2005, 10:16

Well, LOTR fiction was the first one that was a seriously fantasy story, wasn't it ?

The common imaginary races like Elves, Orcs and so on are brought to life by Tolkien, aren't they ?

That's what I hear from the fans of Tolkien. And if that's true, at least he deserves credit for creation that lasts for a long time and usually used.

The font style of the Elvish (there were two languages, I do not remember the particular name right now) is said to be inspired by the Arabic. And in newspapers, about a month ago or so, some British journalists (I think 3 of them) were answering questions from the readers. And some claimed that the Orc race was inspired by Turks.
Strange that we usually get "roasted" now we are claimed by some to be tasting worse than rubber.. Orc flesh? Yuck ! ~D

LeftEyeNine

09-05-2005, 11:21

Not the world's best author, perhaps. But the Wright Brothers were certainly not the world's best pilots, either.

That summarizes Tolkien's fame. Excellent..

Spetulhu

09-05-2005, 11:24

As Panzer said, the books are pretty sub-par compared to some of today's greater fantasy works. Wheel of Time, for example.

Jordan needs to get a real editor instead of going on and on and on and on... :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book:

Ja'chyra

09-05-2005, 11:30

Jordan needs to get a real editor instead of going on and on and on and on... :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book:

Very true, what we on now, 11 books and counting? I don't think he's got a clue about where he's going, I'm sure it was originally supposed to be 10 books with number nine billed as the penultimate. I'm seriously considering giving up on his series ~:eek:

Ser Clegane

09-05-2005, 12:12

I'm seriously considering giving up on his series ~:eek:

I did so after number 8 when it became increasingly clear to me that the story lost any pace - and as Jordan's writing style is far from stellar, there was not much left to enjoy after the plot stalled... ~:handball:

nokhor

09-05-2005, 14:58

Adrian II

09-05-2005, 15:04

one of my issues with the conventions of fantasy is that in every major work, the freedom-loving chivalric people with knights are always in the west, always bounded by a great western ocean, the 'boundless hordes' and darker skinned peoples are always in the east/south, the viking-esque peoples are always in the north. the steppe peoples are always in the east etc. which i just find silly.That is why I find nearly all fantasy so utterly boring. It isn't fantasy at all, just a watered-down version of some mediocre writer's idea of reality. Every dwarf, every robot, every elf is another testimony to the author's lack of talent and imagination.

Y'all may hang me now. ~:handball:

Azi Tohak

09-05-2005, 15:14

Maybe he's not as exciting as some modern writers, but he was the first to create a fantasy world. I think GC is right about his skills.

I've read his letter about how he despises allegory, and I must say I'm thrilled by it ~D I hate allegory too, and sure, while he had to have taken some of his own experiences and placed them in the book (WWI is too important to ignore), they aren't supposed to be 'true'. Their books and enjoy them (or hate them, whatever) as such.

Azi

Stefan the Berserker

09-05-2005, 16:14

Riders of Rohan are essentially Vikings on horses (Rus, I suppose). I know Tolkein was a proffesors of Norse and Saxon mytholgy and language.

Gondorians are a bit like late Romans, with really only one city, and only their past to keep them going.

Mostly. Tolkien was proffesor of Norse mytholgy and Linguistics.

The official claim of Tolkien was that he admired the celtic and germanic mythology and wanted to create an "English mythology" since his people, in his viewpoint, would not obtain an own mythology.

However they historically shared the norse mythology (Saxons) , during the both worldwars the English developed to denie their roots on the Continent since this would create a connection with their Enemy (Germans).

He wanted to create a mostly realistic mythology, so he mixed Elements of:

Celtic Mythology
Norse/Germanic Mythology
Dark Age European History
The old Testament/ The holy Bible

Which were sensefully factors which could have influenced he grew of an "English mythology".

So you will find an equivalent of Noah, with Elendil sailing with fellows to middlearth when Numenor sinks. Aswell as the Hamites-Haradrim, Odin-Gandalf or Fomorii-Orks.

However who is interessted in this should prefer the Book, since the Films are good but they change the shape of many aspects.

Steppe Merc

09-05-2005, 16:23

The books are great, and I love em. I like the newer series like Wheel of Time and GRR Martin's series, whatever it's called. But I guess it's sort of like the Beatles, as good as other bands, the Beatles were the first, so they're the best. ~D
The films are good, and while they do change stuff, it still seems the same world and story.

And WOT is a bit too long. It needs less of those scheming Aes Sedai, and more Borderlanders (preferably Saladean) versus Trollocs. :charge:
But I'm gonna read them all. Though Jordan could take hints from Martin when it comes to getting to the point.

edit: Stefan, thanks for correcting me, I knew it was Norse, but I wasn't sure what else he studied.

English assassin

09-05-2005, 17:06

If you ask me Tolkien is a grossly sub-par reworking of bits of Norse myth and that's it. Poems in Elvish, give me a break.

The Hobbits are obviously English though. Evidence:

(1) they like beer and specifically pubs (OK, they could be Scottish or Irish as well on that basis. But no one else)

(2) they like books full of things they already know, set out fair and square, with no contradictions. That rules out the Celts who are a notoriously brainy if highly strung bunch, therefore by a process of elimination Hobbits are English.

Quite why Tolkien felt the country needed a mythology in which it was depicted as irritating little midgets I do not know, in the same way I have some difficulty in seeing LOTR as an improvement on Beowulf. Obviously the world of fantasy must remain closed to me...

ShadesPanther

09-05-2005, 17:41

There was a website I read that was full of the mythology and all kinds of things regarding middle Earth. I'll see if I can find it

doc_bean

09-05-2005, 18:08

I really don't understand how people can say Jordan is a better writer than Tolkien, all his male and all his female characters are the same, his pacing is terrible and most of the book(s) are filled with silly detours. What happened at the end of book 3 was known to happen by the end of book 2 ! Every person in power is female and all males seem to be afraid of women (yeah, realistic for a medieval setting).

Still the worst fantasy I ever read (I swear I read better videogame fanfiction than that) was the first book in the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, it has to be read to be believed, but I won't recommend doing that to anyone.

The best fantasy book, imho, is Magician by Feist. It manages to be fun and entertaining throughout, and has very likable characters. His other work isn't at the same level, but this quite fun to read.

I do agree with AdrianII though, the fantasy genre is formulatic (sp?) and, taken as a whole, rather boring and predictable. I consider it pulp instead of literature. But pulp can be entertaining when you're in the right mood.

AntiochusIII

09-05-2005, 18:40

But Tolkien is the pioneer of the genre, is he not? I believe in games, books, and all sorts of fantasy stuff in the world carries resemblance to Tolkien's Middle Earth. Tolkien's elves influenced a lot of elven species. Even Morrowind's elves are similar to his. So it may be that the fantasy genre copies his works too many times that the original (more-or-less) becomes unoriginal in modern readers' minds.

At least the dragons are purely evil here and the "knights who fought the dragons" are dwarven armed forces, and that Rohan knights were by no means Arthurian knights (as in literature), but are just heavy "Sarmatian" horsemen with devastating charges. Oh, and no Medieval castles, either, but rather Gondorian strongholds.

Ser Clegane

09-05-2005, 21:30

Still the worst fantasy I ever read (I swear I read better videogame fanfiction than that) was the first book in the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, it has to be read to be believed, but I won't recommend doing that to anyone.

I guess you haven't read his last couple of books then ~D

I actually thought the first two books of the series were OK (although Goodkind seems to have a lot of - hopefully suprressed in real life - sadism).

Some of the later books in the series are actually just a 500+ page version of
"GAH! Communism! GAH!"

Martok

09-05-2005, 21:35

And in newspapers, about a month ago or so, some British journalists (I think 3 of them) were answering questions from the readers. And some claimed that the Orc race was inspired by Turks.
Strange that we usually get "roasted" now we are claimed by some to be tasting worse than rubber.. Orc flesh? Yuck ! ~D

I've never heard this before. On what did they base the idea that the Turks were Tolkien's inspiration for Orcs? Aside from both peoples living "in the East", I fail to see any parallel there.....

Oh, and about Tolkien: No, he was not the first author to write about elves, dragons, dwarves, and whatnot. But he was the first to weave all those elements into one grand tapestry to tell an epic story. The Lord of the Rings books were not the first works of fantasy fiction, but it is the benchmark against which all other fantasy pieces have since been measured.

ShadesPanther

09-05-2005, 22:07

Only the Bible has outsold it.
Sorta says something really. Move over bible. It is probably the greatest book of the 20th Century

Papewaio

09-05-2005, 22:07

I guess you haven't read his last couple of books then ~D

I actually thought the first two books of the series were OK (although Goodkind seems to have a lot of - hopefully suprressed in real life - sadism).

Some of the later books in the series are actually just a 500+ page version of
"GAH! Communism! GAH!"

I agree the last one might as well been Gah! Liberals and socialists can't see the evil so they are evil too! Gah!

I actually enjoy the series, but I read it for fun distraction from reading Cisco documentation :dizzy2:

octavian

09-06-2005, 01:43

That is why I find nearly all fantasy so utterly boring. It isn't fantasy at all, just a watered-down version of some mediocre writer's idea of reality. Every dwarf, every robot, every elf is another testimony to the author's lack of talent and imagination.

Y'all may hang me now. ~:handball:

keep in mind that Tolkien was not writing afaik a FANTASY book. rather he was trying to write something for the english people that was lacking in their history, that is, a mythological history filled with great deeds and legends.

also tolkien had a number of things in his life that affected his writing etc. one of these was a pet theory that is if the saxons had had horses they would not have lost the battle of hastings. therefore you have your saxon lookalikes (the Rohirrim) mounted on horses. you also have Tolkiens dream about a great wave washing over and sinking an island. this is referred to by numenor (read: atlantis) tolkien also had a theory that he was descended from some survivors (who had passed the dream down to him) of atlantis (read: gondorians). tolkien even references his dream directly in the LOTR with Faramir. (given in the movie to eowen). even shelob (etymological tangent she=female lob=spider not very creative really, but a very good feel and sound) had a real life counterpart, tolkien was severly frightened while he was a child in South Africa by a large spider (tarantula iirc).

thats all i can come up with off the top of my head i'll prolly post more later.

0ct

Papewaio

09-06-2005, 01:53

LeftEyeNine

09-06-2005, 03:46

Martok,

This is the news from one of the most well-known and respected papers of Turkey :

http://www.milliyet.com/2005/07/07/dunya/adun.html

The headline says "The Most Racist Resemblance"

The full translation is :

" It is claimed that J.R.R. Tolkien's eternal trilogy of which screen adoption was a huge success - Lord Of The Ring's land of evil is Turkey and the servants of the Sauron the lord Of darkness - the Orcs are the Turks. The British newspaper Daily Mail chose an allegoric way by headlining the claim about the Lord Of The Rings -of which first one of the series was published in 1951 - as "Tolkien's Orcish Delight" referred as Turkish Delight.

The claim was published in the paper's page where the readers' questions were replied, upon a question about where Mordor was located. Daily Mail journalists James Black and Charles Legge indicated that the word "Mordor" was formed from the old English word "morthor" which meant "fatal sin" or "murder". The reply included the following claims :

Mordor - Turkey : When you overlap Tolkien's Middle Earth map and the map of Europe, you can notice the very close similarities between the signs of climate, fauna and the zoology of the two. Mordor, the reign of the lord of the darkness Sauron is the equal of Turkey in both shapes and locations. The seas around three edges of Turkey are swapped as mountains around Mordor. Harad is the Arab lands.

Black Language - Turkish : Above the fact that Mordor being really similar to Turkey and the Anatolia, the Orcs' language - the black language - has similarities with Turkish. The enslaved people around the Nurnen Sea may be the Armenians and the Nurnen Sea being the Lake of Van.

Pelargir - Istanbul : Shire where the Hobbits reside may be the middle of England. Gondor may be located in Italy and Greece which have borders to Mediterranean Sea and Rohan be in the forests of Eastern Europe. Minas Tirith - the capital of Gondor may be replaced with Venice and Gondor's second biggest city Pelargir may be Istanbul..."

That is the extract from Milliyet dated July 07 2005.

P.S. If there are wrong translations with according to the proper nouns used in the book (i.e. is the Orcish language called black language really?) . I did not ever read the book.

LeftEyeNine

09-06-2005, 04:22

GC,

I did not cry out anything. In the first page I neutrally added in one of my posts about the news claiming Orcs being Turks - you may want to look at the topic again "Tolkien's Fantasy World Too True To be Fantasy ?"

I actually am totally indifferent with such things. Martok said that he did not see such news and I pointed the resource. That's all.

I should repeat that the topic's sole intention is only discussing about Tolkien's affections. Many dear patrons wrote down something - what he may have brought into action from reality. So that I wanted to add something by myself that was published in Turkey.

The probable affections of Tolkien presented by the patrons are quite interesting and I favor the idea that Tolkien is affected with the war times. The ring representing the Industrialization was a very good comment, for example.

You can not find me "demonizing" Tolkien's great piece of work in this topic. Here's what I said against some members thinking that Tolkien's works were sub-par :

Well, LOTR fiction was the first one that was a seriously fantasy story, wasn't it ?

The common imaginary races like Elves, Orcs and so on are brought to life by Tolkien, aren't they ?

That's what I hear from the fans of Tolkien. And if that's true, at least he deserves credit for creation that lasts for a long time and usually used.

If the news is true, only British friends can prove the news being true, then they are those journalists being pathetic, there is no need to demonize anyone. I must repeat, anyhow, I am indifferent with this news.

I sense no offense dear GC, but please distinguish me from nationalistic freaks who have no ground or idea for their cause. I am generally driven to explain intentions of every single one of my posts whether it is about Tolkien or about Islam. Please take my good temper in account from now on.

Regards..

Soulforged

09-06-2005, 05:10

Stefan the Berserker

09-06-2005, 09:53

-> Haradrim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haradrim) - real- Hamitic People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic)

Early interpretations of the Bible led many Western scholars to believe that all of humanity was descended from Noah. Chapters 9 and 10 of the Book of Genesis deal with the branching off and splitting up of Noah's sons into the world, this is open to interpretation, but the name of Cush, Ham's eldest son, means 'black' in Hebrew. Noah curses Ham and Canaan, Cush's brother, saying that he and his descendants would be a "servant of servants". Hebrew scholars used this passage to justify the Israelite subjugation of Canaan. These scholars, working around the 6th century AD, introduced the idea that the sons of Ham were marked by dark skin.

In the middle ages Christian scholars picked up on the idea. Again, the depiction of the "sons of Ham" as cursed, "blackened" by their sins suited the ideological interests of the European elite; especially as the principal enemy of Christendom was Islam, which dominated North Africa. Despite the fact that Islam originated with the Semitic Arabs, European imagery often stressed the blackness of the Islamic Moors and associated them with the 'cursed' sons of Ham. Later, with the emergence of the slave trade, it justified the exploitation of a ready supply of black African labour.

-> Orcs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc) - real - Grendel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel) / Fomorii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorian) / Tommies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommies)

In Beowulf, ll: 112,the zombie-like Grendel's race is described as Orc-néas, which seems to mean "corpses of Orcus." Orcus, in Roman mythology, was an alternative name for Pluto, Hades, or Dis Pater, god of the land of the dead. The name "Orcus" seems to have been given to his evil and punishing side, as the god who tormented evildoers in the afterlife. Like the name Hades (or the Northern Hel, for that matter), "Orcus" could also mean the land of the dead. Tolkien derived his 'Orcs' from this passage in Beowulf. (See below.)

With Grendel beeing the Prototype of the Orc as an individual, he created a whole species for the single Monster appearing in Beowulf. The society of Orcs is created by example of the Fomorians, as beeing hostile to the Gods and beeing organised in Armies to fight in Battles the second rally for Mag Tuireadh.

However with the social component of Orcs he created them after example of the Tommies. As beeing forced to keep up fighting and beeing somehow acting like Apparatschiki, he moved his negative impressions of the first worldwar into the Orcs.

"We were all orcs in the Great War"

Steppe Merc

09-06-2005, 14:17

Orcs can't be Turks. No horse archers. Their military is totally different from them, they suck at fighitng (thus can't be Turks), and I think that they represent far more the evils of any group of people, rolled into one.

P.S. If there are wrong translations with according to the proper nouns used in the book (i.e. is the Orcish language called black language really?) . I did not ever read the book.
Eh, it might be mentioned somewhere in the appendices. It's not officially called "The Black Language", though.

Spetulhu

09-06-2005, 21:02

P.S. If there are wrong translations with according to the proper nouns used in the book (i.e. is the Orcish language called black language really?) . I did not ever read the book.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

-Orkish
-The languages of the Orcs

A general term for the jumble of languages used by the Orcs, composed from corrupted borrowings from other languages of Middle-earth. The variations in Orkish between different tribes and types of Orc were so great that it was often useless for communication, and so a standard language was necessary. Sauron devised his Black Speech for this purpose in Mordor, but in practice the Common Tongue was more normally used.