Weaken then finish off or retreat and counter attack?

[Graphic]

Last night I was playing Shogun for the first time in a while but this applies to MTW as well...

You got two boardering provinces with only a few units each. An enemy attacks one with about the amount of troops of both these provinces put together.

Do you:

A) Fight the invasion with your lesser force, cause them some losses, but lose the battle then attack again next turn with the rest.

or B) Retreat from the province then counter attack next turn full force?

[NodachiSam]

I usually do B.

This move on the AI's part doesn't really seem to smart since it leaves its other provinces unguarded but I guess it can then smack an enemies forces with a big army. I've never even considered doing it myself though since I would lose a province or two and get a few buildings razed/pillaged. Perhaps it is worth trying ~:confused:

[Joshwa]

Last night I was playing Shogun for the first time in a while but this applies to MTW as well...

You got two boardering provinces with only a few units each. An enemy attacks one with about the amount of troops of both these provinces put together.

Do you:

A) Fight the invasion with your lesser force, cause them some losses, but lose the battle then attack again next turn with the rest.

or B) Retreat from the province then counter attack next turn full force?

For me, it depends how many other troops i have available. If the AI has just taken advantage of one province that i have been lax about, but one that has a lot of troops nearby, i just try and take out as many of their men as possible, so i can counterattack en mass later and boot them out, as well as maybe trashing a few of their provinces too. As an added bonus, not many of my troops will survive the initial encounter, meaning it will take much longer to starve them out of the local fort.

As a little aside, I had to fight an action like this once, with 340 of my german troops against about a thousand french, hopelessly outnumbered, but two units of 20 swabian swordsmen ended up making a famous last stand that eventually killed their king and rounted their army! Good times...

[NodachiSam]

Very devious Joshua, I'm sure their families dissaprove, but for the empire! :charge:

Your swabian swordsmen tale reminds me of a time early in my career with the series :P In STW I once successfully defended an important border province I had unknowingly exposed with a single unit of 60 nodachi samurai against against 2 spear units and one archer unit. Perhaps a small feat in retrospect but I was dam proud of those swordsmen~D I would've put them in a place of honour with access to sake and geishas. ~:cheers:

[m52nickerson]

For me it depends on how many troops I have. If I have what I feel is enough I would fight and cause as much damage as possible, then counter attack. If my troop count is low I would retreat and gather my forces before countering.

[Roark]

It all depends on command stars and troop quality for me, plus whether I can tolerate the target province's production and income being halted for a year.

I highly prefer defending over attacking, when it comes to my own territory.

[Budwise]

For me it depends on how many troops I have. If I have what I feel is enough I would fight and cause as much damage as possible, then counter attack. If my troop count is low I would retreat and gather my forces before countering.

A lot of people feel this way but not me. Unless I was completely outnumbered (maybe 5 to 1) and have no archer types of any kind, I would try my best to take down a few men via arrow fire and withdraw. If I ever did retreat, its to the stronghold and not the other provence.

[bretwalda]

I almost always defend the province with whatever troops I have. Exceptions: No troops in the province (never happens), no fort in place (rare), the province is a buffer zone (often)

Defending is always easier than attack, you have a few troops to command, you can use terrain to your advantage. I even meet the invaders with one spearmen and two peasants units and try to go for the general (pin n' flank).

[Grey_Fox]

I would choose option (A) if I had a couple of cavalry units. In my current Turkish camapaign I had 4 Turcoman HA's, two AHC and an inbred prince with three stars and the pride vice attacked by a stack and a bit commanded by the Sicilian King. His army was comprised of Mtd Sergeants, FS, vanilla spearmen and FMAA. I won the battle, killing or capturing 3/4 of the enemy's army and losing 117 of my own men. The difficulty was hard.

[Eternal Champion]

I always fight just to weaken the buggers down and reduce the size of the castle garrison. Beside like Grey, you never know what might happen.

[ToranagaSama]

Last night I was playing Shogun for the first time in a while but this applies to MTW as well...

You got two boardering provinces with only a few units each. An enemy attacks one with about the amount of troops of both these provinces put together.

Do you:

A) Fight the invasion with your lesser force, cause them some losses, but lose the battle then attack again next turn with the rest.

or B) Retreat from the province then counter attack next turn full force?

Well, there is a C) option you didn't include.

It's really dependant upon the type and quality of your units, as well as the Terrain. Terrain is particularly consequent in STW.

If the battle is to occur on rather plain and flat terrain, with little height advantage available, and the enemey has Cav; then, you'll pretty much bite the dust. You could have a chance with some some pretty strong spears, or such.

Setting up and springing *Traps* is a way to even things out. Putting a unit(s) in a nearby stand of trees; or, *hiding* a unit(s) behind a hill. Surpise is a key!!

In such instances, you are often caught with an overabundence of 'Lessor" units. Peasants and Archers are good units to *hide and surpise*. See a far off stand of trees or hill, where the AI is unlikely to check. Use it!

The challenge then is to, TIMELY, get those units across the field to the battle---in perfect *flanking* postion---hitting the rear (or an L shaped ambush). Timing is critical.

Spring the surprise too soon, and the weak troops will just get slaughtered. Too late, and the weak troops, alone and by themselves, far out on the flank, will flee. With the correct timing they can be critical.

For example, say you got a single light (fast) Cav unit amoung your few troops. You could place a couple of units as I suggested. Hold back your Cav, and use the rest in a *holding* action (Hold Position, Hold Formation, even in Pyramid formation). The purpose is to keep the enemey occupied and do as much damage as possible, while attempting to spring your trap.

*Given the opportunity*, you then send the Cav round the lines to attack the AI General (Knight) frontally. Normally this is a suicide mission, BUT (with good timing) you bring the unit(s) in hiding aiming them squarely at the rear of the AI General. He's in a *sandwich*!!

In many (perhaps most) instances the AI General will turn and flee, IRREGARDLESS of the tide of battle. The AI could be winning, and the General will flee.

Often when this happens, so will the entire AI army.

If that doesn't happen, its ok, cause now you have two to three units in PERFECT flanking position to hit the AI army.

That's just a little example, there are several ways to beat a superior force. Particularly so, in STW whose maps are the most detailed and terrain effected. MTW not emulating Japan is slightly less so, but still a very *effected* game. Unlike that other game I won't mention, beginning with an "R".

---

Conversely, on certain of the STW maps with *mountainous* terrain, its a different story. You could set up where you can take great advantage of the height effect. Naginta (sp??) would be good front line units in this case; with some truly good Archers, and you'd have a fair chance.

Attacking Naginta *up hill/mountain* would be really tough for the AI; and two truly good Archers (player directed) can decimate 2 units or more, and instill the *fear* factor in the entire enemey army. If the AI general is in range put some fire his way too.

In my examples, 1 unit can beat 3, 4 can beat 8, and 8 can beat 16. It all depends....

The decision to Fight or not is dependant on whether you can afford to lose the buildings in that province. If not, fighting is your best option. Simply Gotta find a way to win!

Fortunately, Shogun: Total War and Medieval: Total War provide the Player with many Tactical options. Again, unlike that other game....

In STW and MTW, when outnumbered, you can still win. You've just got to learn and master all the game *effects*, Terrain, Morale, Fatuge, etc., all can be used to advantage. The goal is to narrow the margin between victory and defeat. Do it well enough and anything can happen.

I choose Option "C) Fight and Beat the Greater Force" ~D

~ToranagaSama

[NodachiSam]

Very good post ToranagaSama! I've never actually tried to hide behind a hill. Perhaps that is what that one general was doing in STW when he put most of his soldiers in a steep little valley...

[ichi]

You got two boardering provinces with only a few units each. An enemy attacks one with about the amount of troops of both these provinces put together.

Do you:

A) Fight the invasion with your lesser force, cause them some losses, but lose the battle then attack again next turn with the rest.

or B) Retreat from the province then counter attack next turn full force?

I look at the terrain, my units, his units, my units in other nearby provinces, enemy units in nearby provinces, my budget, my other fronts, his other fronts, and (in STW) the season.

I factor in all of the potential inputs and then defend the province. ~;)

ichi :bow:

[Matty]

If you give your enemy an easy victory, isn't there a chance of getting bad vices and also giving your opponent command stars from beating you?

Incidently, how do you manage to organise a 'controlled retreat' - you've whooped enough ass but your bowmen are out of ammo and you want to retire and come back another day - without getting the good runner vice?

[bretwalda]

If you give your enemy an easy victory, isn't there a chance of getting bad vices and also giving your opponent command stars from beating you?

Incidently, how do you manage to organise a 'controlled retreat' - you've whooped enough ass but your bowmen are out of ammo and you want to retire and come back another day - without getting the good runner vice?

There is a chance that your opponent gets command stars. But you WILL kill his commander in the next battle, right? I mean the next year when you counterattack that province... :wink:

The controlled retreat: you setup at the very end of the map on a steep hill. If you withdraw your general in an orderly fashion without anyone threatening him most likely he won't get vices. Anyway there is little chance that your über-general is at the command of such a poorly outfitted army that an enemy can just that easily beat. It is more likely that they surprised you with your pants down, right? With a not-so-shiny general in command...
Anyway you throw your junk units at the enemy while you withdraw your depleted archers and other valuable units. Peasant, spearmen can easily be replaced and they will cover your retreat and die doing so...

[yesdachi]

I will almost always stay and fight. If rather hopeless I will sometimes try and “hide” a unit in a forest or something until time runs out so I might keep the province even though I loose the battle. It’s worked a few times. ~:)
It is usually a moot point for I will crush them next turn anyhow! At least I hope. ~;)

[Ludens]

I usually go for B (which, by the way, is standard medieval strategical doctrine), but, like Ichi and TS said, it really depends on the exact circumstances.