Holy Roman Headache! [Archive]

EatYerGreens

09-07-2005, 03:39

Insigna,

I've not tried HRE for myself yet, at any level, but will attempt to reply based on things I've picked up from reading the threads on the forum. Thanks to all who thought these things up first. :bow:

1) At the faction choice screen, did you notice the comment it makes about HRE being equivalent to one level of difficulty higher than the one selected?

2) HRE probably has more neighbour factions than any other on the board, on turn one, so it's hard to NOT get sucked into wars you didn't really want. It also means lots of border provinces to guard simultaneously, which will demand lots of troops, or else try to make strategic gains which allow you to maintain a border with three decent armies instead of four slightly weak ones, for example.

3) Get used to excommunication. It happens to the HRE a lot! Wait for your Emperor, or the Pope, to die of old age and it'll go away. Weather the storm in the meantime. Later on, you can have assassins with which to bump off old Popey when he gets to be a nuisance.

4) Lose two provinces in one year and your king loses enough influence to drop generals' loyalties down to insurrection levels. If necessary, split all your stacks into single units so, if a high-starred general goes rebel, he doesn't take a whole stack of otherwise faithful troops with him, under his command.

5) Don't suggest or accept alliances at all. If they do all the requesting, it's because they fear attack by you and want to be left alone (at least for long enough that they can tech up and clobber you). You then cannot initiate attacks on them - breaking the alliance - without being dishonoured, again impacting your king's influence which, in turn, impacts on loyalty at home.

6) If you're the strongest faction in the game, then expect other factions to side with the one who initiates attacks on you. The little guys join together to take on the big guy.

7) The fact that the AI is attacking you is a sign that it fancies its chances and relative sizes of attacker force versus garrison size has a big part to play in this, IMO. To play 'defensive', you're going to need defensive garrisons which are sufficiently fearsome, in terms of either troop numbers, troop quality (tech level), or both, to inhibit the AI factions from even making an attempt. To do this, you're going to need a strong economy, to train and pay the upkeep on these troops, yet still have enough positive cashflow for continued building upgrades. Defend your richest provinces as strongly as possible in the first few turns (maybe at the expense of one crummy province, if need be) and get farm improvements going right away. You may need to spam peasants early on, to repel invasions in the initial few turns using weight of numbers but, when cashflow gets squeezed by garrison sizes even with the benefit of 40% farms, gradually disband the peasant units as and when your sword units (FMAA) become available. The AI's chronic inability to do likewise will work in your favour, especially if they tried to keep pace with your early peasant output by building matching numbers of their own.

8) Similarly in the interests of the economy, try to maintain at least one coastal province with tradeable goods and get some ships built. Later on, other factions won't be able to declare war on you without their own economy suffering from the effects of you blockading their ports.

9) With regard to knocking out Italy totally before excommunication, it is doable but not on the timescale you're looking for. Basically, the papal warning gives you two years in which to complete a provincial conflict. Regard year zero as the year of the won battle and the warning being issued; year 1 is the year you either lay siege or comply by pulling out, year 2 is your last opportunity to break the siege by assault (make sure you win!) but it's too late to pull out because, at the time you press 'End Year' the province is still held by you and the sally/siege break action by the other side causes the province to change hands in the third year of the papal time limit. If you've won the province within the time limit, you have to wait a further 10 years before you can attack that faction again without risking immediate excom and the 2 year completion rule comes into force again, followed by another 10 years and so on....
Yes it is slow going but every province you take off a neighbour faction inhibits their progress and enhances yours. While you're waiting, perhaps attack a second faction and get another warning - just keep track of all the various expiry dates!

10) Faction re-emergences can sometimes bring 4-5 stacks of troops well above the quality of what you last beat into the ground using an army no bigger than one stack. It can pay to leave a faction with one last province, like a protectorate under your wing and work on doing the same to other factions. Treat the protectorate's army as being an extra defensive army holding the faction on the opposite border at bay. Save the coup de grace battles for the end-game, with the Papal faction being last to be knocked out. Otherwise the re-emergence may happen just a few years after you've finished the Italians but before you've built sufficient new troops to take on the next faction you had in mind.

dgfred

09-07-2005, 14:51

Great post EYG ~:cheers: . As you know I love the HRE ~;) . Probably the
best bet for knocking the Italians off the continent is to prepare early. The
best method I have found is to smack someone else first (Danes or French
do nicely) and get your warning from the Pope- then tear into the Italians
without worry from the Pope ~D - this way you can take a couple of
important provinces from the French or Danes to secure some $, then rid
yourself of those pesky Italians. Just make sure you are in good defensive
position on your other fronts. Hope this helps.

danielrech

09-07-2005, 16:19

As the HRE (early/hard) I always attack the Italians first, even if I always get excommunicated. Never had much trouble with that. If you re unsure about loyalty, just wait until the pope is on his 50's.

yesdachi

09-07-2005, 16:39

Good info EYG. And dgfred, you added exactly what I was thinking. ~:cheers:

Here’s my little HRE story.

I recently finished my Spanish game, the toughest I ever played (self inflicted via stupidity :dizzy2: ), and thought if I can do that I might be ready for the HRE (everyone says they are difficult but fun). So I give it a try early/expert/GA. I immediately see that my money will not go far so I decide to turtle a little and try to fortify my position. After about 4 turns a different opponent attacks me almost every turn for several years until I get the “you have the largest military” notice and they leave me alone, phew. My money is real tight and I take the opportunity to take out the Italians and get some quick cash from Venice. I take two provinces and get warned from the pope. Then get the “you have the most money” notice and get attacked by everyone again. There was no way I could have kicked the Italians off the mainland now so 10 years waiting was no big deal. I took back a lost province or two and then when my time was up I “booted” the Italians out, got warned and then used the warning to my advantage to kick the crap out of the French (weakened by the English) and Danes. On the up side I have a pretty established and safe boarder now but I have done barley any building other than farms. I have some great generals but I might be in trouble from other tech-advanced factions (my most advanced unit is the FMA and only because a French province I took had a swordsmith). Fun and uniquely challenging but the constant fighting is definitely not my style. ~:)

Vladimir

09-07-2005, 17:13

I've only started with them successfully once, on expert. Keep your numbers up, learn small unit (army) tactics, and choose your battles. Sometimes you want them to invade so you can move an army to block their retreat and attack them in the same year. I grabbed a lot of land from France (I now border continental England) and wiped out Hungary quick when they attacked. When I last left the game I defeated a Danish invasion and the Poles attacked. Do what you can to shorten your front lines and make money in the core. Germany can be the beating heart of Europe with a little cardiovascular exercise ~;) .

lugh

09-07-2005, 17:34

I'm playing a HRE/Hard/Early at the moment.
The one thing you have to get used to is getting excommed and suffering a lot of religious revolts as a result (fanatics hurt like hell when you only have feudal troops) especially if you're playing GA. The pope keeps raiding the peninsula since I showved him into the Papal states and took the rest for myself.
One tactic that's borne fruit was building up a high valour emmisarry and assassin. The latter to kill the pope that excommed you and the former to speedily negotiate a ceasefire.
Plus, if you keep him sweet, he'll gift you with gold when you take Prussia early on, and the Drang nach Osten is a money spinner for me at the moment since I've no fleet and am crusading my way to Livonia! Lots of heretics killed is giving me a thousand bonus every second turn.

EatYerGreens

09-07-2005, 17:37

Thanks for the compliments, guys, but I did stress that was a 'digest' of stuff I've picked up from other forum regulars. They know who they are!

You were right to point out my mistake about Papal warnings. For the uninitiated, it's a minor glitch in the game that it can only keep track of one warning at a time. I forget if the pope warns you against attacking other Catholic factions, in general, or a named faction in particular.

In theory, you can attack an unthreatening faction, such as the Danes, maybe even pull out afterwards without completing the province conquest, get the warning, then leave them alone. They should be sufficiently damaged to be unable to strike back for longer than 10 years. Meanwhile, you can go for broke against the faction you really wanted to knock out.

With regard to item 8 on my list, I was forgetting that the AI is astonishingly bad at setting up its shipping routes, so you won't be blockading their trade as much as I suggested. You will, however, be in a position to prevent them making seaborne invasions and routine troop movements if they commence hostilities against you, by placing your ships in locations awkward for them.

Both HRE and the Byzantines regard themselves as rightful successors to the ancient Roman empire, which makes them natural rivals. You might wish to confine your alliances to factions which will keep the Byz busy, like the Sicilians (who WILL back-stab you eventually, often beginning with a naval attack), Turks and Egyptians.

After taking Venice, don't lay into the Hungarians too soon. You stand to gain many years' worth of trading income with them, as well as the Papal States and whoever holds Naples, using just one ship in the Adriatic. The extra income will allow you to steadily improve your farms in landlocked provinces and also kickstart your Baltic/North Sea trade routes, which will then enable you to invade Norway and Sweden without having to knock out the Danes first (remember what I said about tricky re-emergences?).

For a time, you may even be able to trade with the Byzantines too. Ships around their coasts will let you monitor their progress without risking your agents against their assassins. If naval conflict starts you can break all ship contact and link the Adriatic to North Africa instead. Crusade against the Byz through Hungary, with the Huns either neutral or allied to you.

I've been so preoccupied with multiplayer lately that my Byz campaign has ground to a halt. After dishing out all this advice, I'm sorely tempted to start a HRE campaign of my own, to see whether it's a workable strategy. Whether I'm up to scratch for "Hard+1" I don't know. Also I've yet to attempt GA, in either version of the game but it sounds entertaining and I might try that.

dgfred

09-07-2005, 17:38

dgfred

09-07-2005, 17:52

EYG- give the HRE a try on at least hard, maybe even expert ~;) -- we
would love to tag along. ~:cool: The Byzantines have been a major head-
ache for me in both my HRE game and my Egyptian game :furious3: , they
are quickly becoming my 'archrival' . In my HRE game I finally had to stomp
them in Const., destroy some stuff of theirs, withdraw and then invade
another nearby province such as Greece or Lesser Armenia. After about 10
years of this they are weakened to the point of not really being able to
defend themselves from others ~D . I'm still working on my Egyptian stategy
towards them :brood: .

yesdachi

09-07-2005, 19:38

@ yesdachi- Could you give us more details of your Spanish game? ~:cool:

Your HRE game sounds very interesting too. I foresee many tough battles
for you, especially with not much built. The constant fighting can be one
of the drawbacks of playing the Germans, it is not really my style either :dizzy2: .
About my Spanish game...
I may have mentioned it before but I basically had about 40% of the map and all was well then I got a lame king. The next in line was awesome so I sent my lame king to Ireland to “retire” he was captured and I refused the ransom and the awesome king took the crown. Sounds good so far ~:cheers: . Well refusing the kings ransom freaked my people out and nearly every one of my provinces generated 3 stacks of bandits! ~:eek: :dizzy2: ~:eek: I consolidated my forces into about 6 provinces and had to start taking back my land. I had lots of re-emerging factions late in the game too. The byz made a massive rally against me and with less than 20 years left I had the French, Danes and Hungarians all pop up.

Also in my HRE game I don’t see the Byz anywhere?!? But the Turks are covering the east side of the map. I’m kind of excited about a good face off with the Turks I rarely get to fight them. Hope I have more than FMA’s by the time it happens. ~;)

Roark

09-08-2005, 01:10

Yeah, considering EYG's observation of the Italian situation, it's probably not worth worrying about the Pope's edicts, and simply bum-rush the Italians down to Tuscany. Playing tippy-toe with excommunication may just stagnate the Empire, getting you nowhere. The influence gained from blitzkrieg conquest can serve to counteract the big knock you take from excommunication. If you choose this option, though, I would suggest attacking the Italians and ONLY the Italians, and to actually accept offers of alliance from other factions.

I guess what I'm saying, in a rambling kind of way, is any conflict with the Italians should be all-or-nothing.

Of course, this all goes out the window in those weird campaigns where they have that "special" relationship with the Pope, and he calls for crusades against you within 3 or 4 years of your first assault against Italy. Kiss your empire goodbye if anyone buys a ticket to THAT show.

antisocialmunky

09-08-2005, 12:08

Well, the HRE GA is to eventually conquer Rome. I'd attack through Italy and kill the Pope and then turn around and plow through the Italians again.

dgfred

09-08-2005, 16:12

Well, the HRE GA is to eventually conquer Rome. I'd attack through Italy and kill the Pope and then turn around and plow through the Italians again.

This is not too easy early in the game ~:confused: . I find it hard to fully
attack anyone with HRE except for Danes and maybe France in the very early
game, and still keep Poland, Hungary and Italians at bay :dizzy2: . I usually
try to leave the Pope alone for much of the game, by-passing his lands and
using the attack one/get warning/smash another trick ~;) to avoid
excommunication. The biggest problems I have with the Germans are:
loyalty issues, defense on several fronts and excommunication- avoiding these usually means a victory ~D .

antisocialmunky

09-08-2005, 21:25

What I'd meant is that in a GA game, when you invade Italy, you shouldn't stop in Italy. Just go through and kill the pope and establish your HRE in three turns.

EatYerGreens

09-11-2005, 16:24

What I'd meant is that in a GA game, when you invade Italy, you shouldn't stop in Italy. Just go through and kill the pope and establish your HRE in three turns.

I presume you mean three turns from start to finish, not turn three of the game?

I can't imagine what the effects of excom on turn two/three must be like when you have one (largely ineffectual) pez or UM unit per province, loyalty at 123%, with taxes already at Low or Very Low in most regions, most of your newest trained troops headed south for the fighting and your first new forts not yet completed!

As for three turns, I assume that turn one is a triple attack on Milan, Genoa and Venice, turn 2 is Tuscany/Papal States and turn 3 is Rome (and/or Naples)?

NodachiSam

09-11-2005, 17:11

I wonder if you can use the attack someone, get a warning, and then attack the real target trick to avoid excom with the Pope himself. Probably not but perhaps worth trying. When I play I would probably leave the papal states though, I hate Pope comeback tours.

EatYerGreens

09-11-2005, 17:13

HRE GA/Early/Hard/Default unit size

Firstly, a correction of a comment I made earlier. Perhaps I got the thing about 'one level harder' came from the description for the conquest game? Anyway, under GA, the description says that HRE is no harder or easier than the difficulty level chosen.

Firstly, get the lay of the land. In the incompleted campaigns before adding the VI package, none of the factions I'd played really got this far. I think I got the English to the border with Lorraine, my Almos got to southern France when the gamesave corrupted and my Byz campaigns headed off into Russia or Africa, rather than this direction. Even my agents rarely strayed far from ports to scout out the land.

Phew! A lot of provinces to be looked after and only three training centres to start with. A no-brainer to crank out archers from Switzerland, UMs from Franconia(?) and spears from Burgundy. Start distributing these around as best as possible.

The building program gets underway and the Emperor gets the much needed loyalty boost, from 'Builder' within about four turns. Tax rates begin to creep up but the income levels are still less than impressive, even with govs at Acumen 3 and 4. Troop buildup, as much as construction costs dips the treasury down from the opening 6000 down to 3-4000 and it continues to hover thereabouts with an annual profit of only 7-800, as of now.

I reached a point where all four Provinces bordering the French had identical forces (1 Archer, 1 UM, 1 Spear, 1 Pez) and I felt comfortable leaving like that. I'd intended to crank out further troops with which to take on Italy but was pre-empted by France attacking Lorraine. I'd forgotten just how useless a 0-valour force under a 0-star general can be. I could easily have handled the foot troops they brought but the slightest contact between their 2-star prince's Royal Knights and the peasants I'd placed in a small thicket gave mere seconds to get a spear unit around onto their flank but it was too little, too late, as they both broke and ran almost straight away, taking the rest of my force with them.

Lorraine revolted, ready for the following turn and I was pleasantly surprised to be presented with a free unit of archers, Feudal Sergeants (well ahead of the facilities to train them) and a unit I'd never seen before - Gothic Sergeants - as a 1-star general. Additional troops moving in from other provinces caused the French to abandon without a field battle, so I have yet to try out the mounted unit in a fight.

Lorraine gets the same treatment as many of my 'frontline' provinces - no fort, if I can avoid it. I really don't like the idea of a faction leader, prince or a good general getting trapped in a fort when I'm caught off-guard by an AI-initiated battle, outnumbered, or out-teched, or out-moraled and beaten. Yes, I do get beaten by the AI at times but it's more often due to strategic blunders like too small a garrison, or too few command stars on a general, than tactical disasters on the battlefield.

They attacked Friesland too, a while later but to their cost. They had to traverse a large wood to get to my troops. Having had problems in the past, trying to make out what the heck was going on, I actually placed my troops in the open but touching the treeline on my side of the wood. My archers went to the front face of the treeline, so as to skirmish backwards and draw them towards me.

I set a unit of UMs at right angles to my frontline and tried to get them to flank their RK's when they made contact with my spears. That was the last I saw of them, save for the routing symbol flashing on their icon. Evidently the RKs had set off in pursuit of them but this did me a big favour. The remainder of his force was about 4 lots of archers and one of peasants. I think I had 2 peasants (one had the general flag but more on that in a moment), 2 archers and 2 spears. I charged them all through the wood and out into the clearing on the other side. Out of contact with their prince, they broke and ran and never stopped running.

One of my spear units at the front treeline was shown as fighting something and it seems the Prince had come back for seconds. A half-broken unit or archers fired into the meleé but the spears were losing and clearly couldn't last forever. My pez general was safely out of trouble and I left him there. I'd lost sight of the other spears, which had lost a lot of men to who knows what and smaller than the one already losing. I dispatched them to the fight anyway, at maximum speed and managed to sandwich the Prince. Casualties mounted but soon he was the only man left and with only 40-odd men left between the two units, he was finally captured. Not a bad effort for a no-star general.

The UM unit showed on the casualty list as a 100% loss to killed/captured but I anticipated getting the prisoners back, having won the day. Curiously, it was the 40 returned UMs who had routed off the field who got credited with the general's promotion. On the field and in the results sheet, it was one of the peasant units who had the big flag. Perhaps that unit type is on the 'discouraged' list for generals?

EatYerGreens

09-11-2005, 18:22

continued...

Even with the first GA points year approaching, I made a silly blunder, redistributing troops around and probably reducing the Friesland garrison size by 60 or 100 men. I should have known this would set something off. Maybe I even took my eye off the ball and forgot to check what the French were up to across the border?

Perhaps I'd got it into my head that the 2222 florins they'd had to pay me to get their Prince back would have taught them a lesson? Nope, they went and attacked Friesland again.... in 1099! :wall:

My 3-star Emperor ('Drinker' from turn 1, giving -1 cmd) had guarded the place for a year or two but I'd just sent him to Lorraine, so that his younger son (4-star) could move to Burgundy. The recently promoted general had gone to look after Brandenburg (3/4 stack of Poles, with their king, had taken Pomerania), leaving another no-star general in charge. The French bring something like 5 archers, the Prince (v6), another 20 RK's, 1 UM and maybe 1 Pez. I envisaged lots of casualties to missiles and maybe enough morale hit to make mine break even before meleé started, so I cop out and retreat to the castle. Bang goes how ever many points apply to a Homeland lost. grrr

Of course, my king and a full stack reliee the siege and see them off without a proper fight but the damage is done and the lesson learned. Next points year expect attacks!

At the same time, I wonder why I'm making such a fuss over Friesland, which is worth barely 100 fl per turn anyway. I've ignored my own advice about maybe letting go of a cruddy province, to make the most of the rest and take it back in later years, when growth in other directions has strengthened the economy. For some reason, I'd decided to build my first port there (aiming at shipbuilding), rather than Saxony which still lacks even a fort. In fact, I've yet to commit to the port build until Friesland ceases to attract French attacks. I reckon I'll have to change tack and build it - and the ships -in Saxony. I'm safe from the Danes for the time being but they've already taken Sweden (hooray! they've attacked in the right direction at long last) and they will be raking in the cash before long. One war at a time, though.

It's now 1101 and I am really paying the price of inaction against Italy, in the earliest turns of the game. France has been a distraction, I admit. I got my Papal warning after they'd attacked me without provocation and I was over-cautious in not making punitive attacks on France, for fear of full-blown ex-com which I'm not quite ready for yet.

I had Toulouse in mind for a hit, which is disconnected from their northern provinces by a piece of English-held Anjou getting in the way. Attacking there gives them no path of retreat, meaning pillage AND a healthy bit of ransom. Trying to avoid ex-com means that they're now accumulating Hobilars down there, which will negate the power of my archers easily. To my dismay, I require a horse-breeder to get cav of any description and, even then, they'll be mounted x-bows, not 'proper' meleé light cav.

The big mistake is not capitalising on the Papal warning right away, opening up against Italy before they'd built up forces and leaving the French to keep their gains, if only for the length of time it took to finish the Italian campaign.

As for the Italians themselves, the puny stacks I had politely let be for the past decade have swelled to 3/4 stacks so rapidly, I wonder if I was paying proper attention or not. Admittedly it's mostly UMs but they have a healthy scattering of valour-1 units in there. I know about the stats differences, so it looks like I'm going to need better than 2:1 numerical advantage as well as efficient flanking moves to fight these with v0 UMs of my own.

Of course, the easy fix for that would be to get my King and Princes down there, to make the most of their valour bonuses but that leaves the door wide open to the French, who have a 5-star general (must check HEROES.TXT for him) kicking around on my western border as well as a party invite to Austria, for the Huns and the Poles, whose stacks now seem bigger than mine.

So, here's a brain-teaser for HRE experts out there, as well as being a generalised question about overall strategy.

Q. How willing are you and how advisable is it to take territory off one faction, when you know that it must come at the cost of a second faction taking a different set of lands off you, because you simply don't have enough troops to look after both jobs at once?

In my case, I see the Italian provinces as being better wealth-generators than the landlocked provinces bordering France. They also give me access to the Mediterranean, which I'll definitely need, come the time to Crusade. Furthermore, kicking the Italians off the mainland is a war that can be fought to completion (ending with no shared borders) within the lifetime of one Emperor, so any resultant excom will eventually end.

In conquest mode, I wouldn't have to worry about conceding ground to the French, so long as my gains are worth more, in the long-term, than what I lost. No doubt, I will gain sufficient strength to take them back and, who knows, I could even let the French spend cash on building stuff, which I can pillage or steal from them later on - so they could be doing me a favour!

In GA mode, however, it does mean losing homelands, so I have to wonder whether it may ultimately cost me the game, when the final totals are known, if I repeatedly failed to get them back in the relevant years.

MuseRulez

09-11-2005, 18:24

Lorraine revolted, ready for the following turn and I was pleasantly surprised to be presented with a free unit of archers, Feudal Sergeants (well ahead of the facilities to train them) and a unit I'd never seen before - Gothic Sergeants - as a 1-star general.

Nice! ~D Gothics are normally only buildable in Late.
Feudal sergeants.
Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence –1 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2 Cost 200 Support cost 62
Chivalric sergeants.
Charge 5 Attack –1 Defence 3 Armour 3 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 0 Cost 300 Support cost 62
Gothic sergeants.
Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence 5 Armour 5 Speed 4, 8, 9 Morale 2 Cost 350 Support cost 62
As you can see they are slow, but I use spear defensively so that isn't much of a problem.

EatYerGreens

09-11-2005, 19:50

My mistake with the unit name then, it was a 40-man, mounted unit. Apologies for the confusion.

Similar helmet shape to Feudal Knights ('tin can' with an eye-slit) on the info parchment. Stats look good, but a smidgin short of RK's, give or take the larger numbers.

Maybe I've got my Teutonics mixed up with my Gothics and it was Teutonic Sergeants?

Anyway, I'm not complaining at all. Any Cav is good cav just now. The Horse Breeder is underway but since I have Switzerland (@keep) heading down the militia line (towards Pikemen) and Swabia going for a Swordsmith (starting next year), the Horse Breeder is in Bavaria, which needs a keep & Spearmaker's workshop before I've got Mounted Sergeants. That's more than a decade away.

By the way, I've read about Swabian Swordsmen and can see an icon for them in the VI Armybuilder utility but the Swordsmith info parchment in Swabia only lists FMAA as buildable. The leaflet which comes with VI does say that Swordsmith in Swabia is the only requirement, so fingers crossed that it's just a matter of the parchment being generically worded and not customiseable province by province. Their stats look pretty impressive!

Del Arroyo

09-11-2005, 20:08

As far as defensive tactics, I've never felt that my border garrisons had any effect on an AI faction's decision of whether or not to attack. A bigger garrison makes them bring more troops, period. And if your garrison isn't big enough to defeat all the troops they bring, you have the option of either abandoning province or going into a crappy 1-year siege.

What I always do with my "cold" borders (and even my "hot" ones) is a leave a single unit or a depleted unit and upgrade the castle to its max. If the AI wants to invade, that's fine-- sometimes I'll even give them a small battle, near the edge of the battlemap, just to get my numbers down to durable levels.

Now, if I want the province right back, and I have the troops nearby to do it, I'll counterattack immediately. But if not, the enemy is stuck with a many-year siege, and often they'll assault. They'll lose 100-500 men total taking out 60 or fewer of mine, and be held up for years (the AI rarely pushes onward with a castle to siege).

Having large defensive garrisons on all borders IMO is inefficient. Though with the HRE's lack of water access, you probably do have to tie down more troops to specific regions.

DA

Roark

09-12-2005, 09:07

Q. How willing are you and how advisable is it to take territory off one faction, when you know that it must come at the cost of a second faction taking a different set of lands off you, because you simply don't have enough troops to look after both jobs at once?

I say loudly and proudly that Saxony and Friesland can get buggered. Spanning the length of the mainland is not all it's cracked up to be. The Danish get tired of waiting, and Olaf is a particularly virile man. He and his soccer team of sons can have Saxony. They rarely sink deeper inland anyway, so let him stretch his forces until you have the money to pump out unit after unit of Swiss halbs, then take the North in time for the Hanseatic alliance.

I am more and more convinced that killing the Italians and allying with the French (if possible) is the way to go. If and when the English start beating the snot out of them, I have found that they are fairly conducive to forming an alliance as well.

I'm always a bit hesitant about the Pope... :embarassed:

Vladimir

09-12-2005, 13:38

HRE, XL, Early, Expert

I got lucky in the opening game. The AI held off attacking long enough for me to make some small flexible armies. The French attacked first (of course) and I was able to take them down until I reached the English mainland border with no excom warning ~:confused: . The Hungarians were polite enough to wait until that war concluded to launch their attack and shortly (surprisingly) they were defeated. Then the Danes attacked and were beaten back the following year followed by an unsuccessful attack north (their infantry is too good early on with that bridge). So that army remains to defend against them. Then the Poles (a few years later) launched another attack and that's where I am. I tell you I've never had the AI be so polite before, it's quite refreshing.

dgfred

09-12-2005, 16:19

I'm no expert, but I do almost always play HRE. Every game, almost, I knock
out the Danes early, no backdoor problems there ~;) . Next I almost always
smack the French :smash: - getting Flanders, Champaign and Isl de France,
with plans for Toulouse. I like to leave Italy alone for a good while, mainly
because they usually don't attack unless you are undergarrisoned in
Tyrolia, Provence or Burgandy. They mostly worry about getting hit by
the Hungarians and Sicilians. I like to keep my eastern provinces well
defended with assorted troops and use Poland, Russia and sometimes
Byzantines as a buffer for the oncomimg Horde onslaught. My crusades are
used to capture Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine for points, and any other
provinces in that area that I want. After my homeland is secure, with nice
tidy borders- I decide what my next plan of action will be. For some reason
I can never get along with the Byz and usually have to weaken them in some
way or another. I decide Spain and Englands fate depending on how well
they are doing (pts) and their attitude to me in the early game :cool4: .

dgfred

09-12-2005, 16:22

Oh, I forgot to mention my THANKS to EYG for letting us lurk his HRE game.
~:cheers:

yesdachi

09-12-2005, 22:24

@ EYG – Sounds like a fun campaign you have going, cant wait to hear more! ~D
You mentioned not building a fort in a province to save a leader from being trapped, good enough reason. I build forts ASAP to try and boost population loyalty. Am I wasting my cash/time trying to build them so quick? I could wait a few years for interior/non boarder provinces.

ajaxfetish

09-13-2005, 02:24

Ah, the wild ride of the HRE in early! One of the funnest games I had was with the HRE, with each of my neighbors in turn deciding to break their alliances and attack me. I used the papal warning limit to my advantage and shifted my offensive war from one to the next until I got a new warning and managed to get through the entire affair without getting exed once.

For EYG, I would definitely recommend pumping out Swabians as soon as possible. If I remember right, they require a swordsmith's workshop, so they're a little further off, but I'd dedicate Swabia to doing nothing else till it techs up to that level and then mass-produce those killing machines. Combined with archers and a decent general, you really don't need anything else for your main army in the early German game. Just stretch 'em in a long line and advance on the enemy across the front. Unless they've got an awesome general or some specialized troops (as the Byzantines tend to) you should be able to sweep virtually anybody right off the field with limited casualties.

During Robert Guiscard's conquest of southern Italy he was faced with a combined offensive by the Pope and the Byzantines. At the battle of Civitate in 1053 he faced the Papal army, which included 700 mercenary Swabian infantry alongside thousands of Italian troops. Two thirds of the Norman army of 3000 knights were fought to a standstill by the Swabians (while the other 1000 defeated the rest of the Pope's army!) That's 2000 of the best heavy cavalry of the day unable to defeat a puny force of 700 swordsmen. While the game doesn't reflect quite this level of ability in the unit, these are still some serious bad*ss's. Make the most of them! (see Warfare in Feudal Europe, by John Beeler, for more info on the battle and many others)

EatYerGreens

09-13-2005, 06:21

For EYG, I would definitely recommend pumping out Swabians as soon as possible. If I remember right, they require a swordsmith's workshop, so they're a little further off, but I'd dedicate Swabia to doing nothing else till it techs up to that level and then mass-produce those killing machines.

Thanks for clearing that one up, ajax. I double checked the VI leaflet to be sure and it's not that I misread it the first time, just that I forgot the significance of the workshop part, meaning level two, meaning full castle first. More on that in a moment...

In the meantime, my recent foray into multiplayer has got me used to FMAA's, so I'm happy to pump these out for the time being, with MilSerges coming out of Switzerland, I can put together 'attack' stacks and 'defence' stacks to make the best of their respective good attributes. Fortunately, none of the neighbour factions has these yet, so I'm ahead on tech.

I am however, broke. Well, almost. Full story to follow.

I build forts ASAP to try and boost population loyalty. Am I wasting my cash/time trying to build them so quick? I could wait a few years for interior/non boarder provinces.

Hmm, possibly. I got a parchment right after the very first press of 'End Year' in the campaign, which warned me about low loyalty amongst my generals. I suppose that's pretty standard for HRE's opening position? I set about fixing that asap by a frantic building programme of border watch towers (no need for BFs just yet) and at least one 20% farms somewhere in every successive year. After about 4 years, the Emperor got 'Builder' which is +10% happiness in all provinces and +1 loyalty on all generals, so it's money well spent, IMO.

The other thing with my style is that there is a natural tendency to accumulate troops in the border provinces and this alone will boost loyalty enough to get taxes into the Very High range.

I say wait with the BF's because I know that when my Builder king snuffs it, there will be an instant drop in happiness and loyalty. I need to have cheap, quick items still on the building shopping list to get my new king his builder virtue in as short a time/least money as possible. BWTs will stave off (low valour) assassin threats well enough in the meantime.

By treating a province as a 'fighting zone' and by not building a fort, I know that, if I do happen to lose on the field, at least the survivors and the general are forced out completely, not trapped and thus they can play an immediate part in the counter offensive. At a pinch, repeated take-backs gains the gen his first couple of stars. Entrapment either has him starved to death, killed in the assault, or sent back to you for a hefty ransom, befitting his star rating.

I never seem to use forts in the way they're supposed to be used - small 'trip-wire' garrisons to hold up attackers at the border and a heavywieght stack placed someplace where it can strike in many directions, to retake the ground quickly. Much more efficient use of troops, as stated by someone previously.

My problem is that my early spending goes on farms and economic improvements and I cannot afford to do that AND build forts in 11 starting provinces, all at once, or however many it is the HRE get. The homelands list in GA mode shows 13 for HRE! The Byz start with 12 provinces but only one training centre, which is just as much of a headache.

In fact, it may be habitual Byz use which got me using this policy. Their starting generals are 6,7,8 star, so I'm a tad over-protective with them and daren't risk getting them snagged up in sieges.

Now I think about it again, I suppose the idea is that you just rally him out of the castle and he's the leader, so it matters not a bit that the relief stack has a no-star leader. Hmmm.

EatYerGreens

09-13-2005, 07:06

HRE GA/Early/Hard/Default size ...continued.

My overall state of mind at the moment is that this is one of the worst botch-jobs I've made of a campaign to date. However, I may be being a tad harsh on myself. I think this may be the first time I've actually played any campaign on the Hard setting. I think all my STW successes were played at Normal and my one go at Hard with that went so badly wrong I gave up in (self) disgust.

After putting VI in place, I did start a Byz campaign on expert, had moderate success with rushing the Turks but ended up packing all the gamesaves into a zipfile for a time when my expertise can cope. A huge HRE crusade had just blatted Bulgaria and was one move away from a thinly defended Capital ~:eek:

My ongoing Byz campaign was back at Normal level again and I have to say it was really bad preparation for what I'm in now, seeing as how the Byz uber-generals make all the difference to winning or losing, not actual player ability. I got a false impression of both unit type capabilities and my own level of tactical skill. This bit me in the backside, as you'll see below.

Back to the action...

Friesland was retaken and held for long enough for a fort to go up. The French stopped attacking it and a garrison of 200 appears to be enough to keep them at bay.

The bad news is that they eventually shoved two stacks into Lorraine and I let them have it without a fight. Those stacks have not moved, so I still haven't got it back yet. No matter, it let me focus my attention on matters down south.

The really wierd thing was that they were somehow able to offer a princess to me on the same turn. As per that screenie I posted up a while back, the icons flashed to indicate that the alliance offer was in conflict with an ongoing war situation. I wanted them off my back and knew a retake battle was not on the cards, so I accepted the offer. So they've gained a province from me and achieved alliance with me in the space of a single turn. This alliance only lasted a year, since I opened up against Italy, who was their ally. Not a problem for me as both sons are now married off and more heirs are being born already. ~;)

I attack Genoa and Milan on the same turn and they retreat to the keeps, which was a pity. Some troops have to go back to guard Provence and I withdraw my better troops from Milan, so only some peasants and UM will receive losses in the siege. Two large stacks of Italians are in Venice and I attack it out of Tyrolia, with backup from the Milan stack, so that they can't pull off a siege-lift.

This is the first of a string of embarrasing defeats. I begin in a gully, with a medium height hill to my right and snow-capped steep hills to my left. The Italians are off in the distance, on the flattish section. They have two RKs, the rest all UMs and reinforcements due. I have fewer men but I have 5 archers and intend to shoot them to bits, as they have no missile units to fire back with. I go at running speed to the hill on my right, to maximize firing range. Fast forward on the speed control for a bit and was so busy concentrating on my own position and facing that I fail to notice they've gone for the steep hills on the other side of the map. GAH! Looks like a mile of marching back down, across the gully and up the steep slope. Fast-forward again. After the climb, my men are down to two bars, so yet more FF to freshen them up.

All goes well at first. I send some archers forward, they send UMs piecemeal to chase them off, only to be cut down to 40 men, at which point they turn back and lose some more. My front line is on a 30deg slope and they charge at my right side, which is lower down. Good, more archers come into play and my spears are down that end. I pin, I flank but it must have been their bonus valour UMs which did this as they carved up my men a treat. The battle log showed something like 31 friendly kills by my archers, which must be a record for me and not something to be proud of either.

His RKs are on his right (my left) and one of the pair looks to have been shot up completely by my left-most archers, without it ever making the short dash required to send them packing. Good, I think that means a Prince of theirs is dead. Their other RK (king!!!) I find safely out of range on the downslope of the ridge they'd defended on. I don't think he played any part in the fighting.

The meleé action gets progressively more messy. I switch archer targeting constantly but this has them pursuing broken enemy UM units when I'm not looking and making my force spread everywhere. Archers are running out of ammo, my spears and UMs have vapourised down to 20 men each and archers are being called on to meleé. Half my units are routing at any given time.

Enemy peasants are coming up the gully, which means the reinforcements are here and I might just pull this off. My sole RK unit (Prince Conrad) has been sat back doing little, so far (daft to send him against AP units) and charges into the flank of some peasants just from sheer proximity, not an order of mine. He sets off in pursuit but I'm looking at 16 badly damaged units, half routing and unrallyable. Even peasants could mop them up as prisoners in this state and I consider pulling off a controlled withdrawal.

Before I could act on that thought the blasted battle ending screen reared it's ugly head. Dumbo, here, had left the battle time limit ON!! All that marching at the start used up half the clock by the time I'd marched twice and rested. The subsequent action kept me too busy to pay attention and it genuinely took me by surprise. Maybe I was going to lose anyway and it did me a favour?

EDIT: Typos...

EatYerGreens

09-13-2005, 08:19

..continued

The casualty bar was at the 50:50 mark at the end of all of that and it sunk home what a difference the Hard setting plus valour bonused Italian UMs can make. I had 86 prisoners and was mindful to execute them before pressing the proceed button. The ransom was small and affordable but, significantly, my 4-star Prince was now a three star.

On the upside, what was a pair of 3/4 stacks in Venice was now just a single, near full one and Milan was held for that year.

In the same turn came my second embarassing defeat. I'd left 1 archer, one v0 UM and two v1 (Provence's bonus) peasants to siege 2 v1 UMs and one of v0 peasants.

The swines only went and rallied out at me! A doddle, with the archers about, or so I thought.

I start on a low hill, they're on a higher one. They come down onto the flatland, I crab sideways, across a wide dip, hoping to get on top of the big hill they've just come down from, to use the height to fire down on them.

I left my archers in line formation, instead of setting them to square for the march. I put the 2 pez units on my left, my UM general on my right. A mis-click has my general moving by himself. I select all and move them together. I preview their arrangement at the first waypoint and fuss for a few seconds over the duff facing of the general's unit. A crucial few seconds, as it turned out.

Wherever they were initially headed to, the enemy units have turned to close with me, so they are more in column than in line. However, it does mean that, as I climb this hill I was so keen on, they're hitting my unit's flanks head on! Worse still, a couple of archers on the end of the line make a grazing contact with the front of their peasants. It's meleé icon comes on and they continue to climb, when this is all time wasted when they could have been keeping their distance and firing. Their pez follows through, causing one of my pez units to break and run. They refuse to rally and are chased into the distance. I turn and attack using the downslope. My archers are firing but against two UMs with boosted valour, it's hopeless. Instead of me being in their retreat path, they are in mine. Lots taken prisoner. Gah!

The force in Provence is large enough to retake Genoa in a later attack and the keep is reduced to a fort because they pulled out completely.

More wierdness now.

Milan has a stack of returned prisoners from the Venice battle and I cannot command them yet. I set the 3/4 stack of siegers to assault the fort. I only have one unit of archers and they fire-arrow a hole in the stockade. For some daft reason, instead of fighting through the breach, I use two peasant units on the left of my line to batter down another section of stockade and make it wider, while the archers use the 1/3 of ammo remaining on the UMs lurking on the other side. The pez must have tired themselves out doing this and the stockade failed to collapse on top of any enemy. A combination of bunching, being shot by the forts arrows and v1 UMs soon had them running. My own UMs fared no better once through the breach. Within a minute, they were coming out and chasing me all over the field. Later checks showed their general was valour 3!! I must have lost 400+ guys to very few of theirs. Another humiliating defeat and probably the only time I've ever stuffed up a simple fort assault.

The wierd bit is that, right after the defeat screen, I pay ransom again, return to the strat map and am told that Milan's castle has fallen to my troops! Whaat the...? The fort itself has been blasted off the map and the enemy troops are nowhere in sight. Evidently my stack of former prisoners was enough to keep the province in my hands. One wonders if the programmers stopped to think of this eventuality, unusual as it is?

So, back to the big picture. I've lost Lorraine but I've gained - and held onto - Milan and Genoa. In spite of this string of embarrasing defeats, no civil war has broken out and I have generals loyalties up at the high end, with the lowest maybe 4 on the scale.

I have this feeling that stagnation - no battles being fought - can breed low loyalty and loss of provinces whilst in that depressed state is what sets the civil wars off. I have just lost a string of battles and an unacceptably high number of men (likely more than 1000 in total) yet the constant activity has somehow kept my generals' loyalties up. Okay, I've lost one province and gained two, plus my borders are strongly guarded, maybe those factors help too?

The biggest issue now is that I've been cranking out troops non-stop, to replace all these losses and it has cost me dearly. My building programme has virtually ground to a halt. Cashflow was down to just 340 at one point and the Treasury has been floating around the 1500 level for the past three or four turns. I had just enough to rebuild Genoa's 20% farms and with two new govs in place, cashflow is back up to around 750 a year. However, I've been cranking out FMAA and MilSerges for several turns and the maintainance squeeze will force me to demobilise the weaker troops very soon.

Trade? Ports? Ships? You're kidding me. Not even a trading post setup anywhere yet - 800 is half of what I have in the bank. Swabian Swordsmen would be great but 2000 for a castle is pie in the sky for about another decade and a 12 year wait after that. And another 6 years for the workshop. (grumble, mumble).

Okay, so Tuscany is down to walkover garrison size and there's just that stack in Venice. I want Venice first but it'll take a few years to rebuild troop numbers. Oh, just to complicate matters, I think the time limit on the Papal warning dating back to France's first attack must have run out because, just as Genoa and Milan had been caoptured outright, Popey raises his ugly head, tells me to stop fighting the Italians and get out within two years. Hmm, so I'll have to wait a while anyway, or else test those loyalties with a slice of excom pie.

The Venice problem kind of sorted itself out but not in the way I would have hoped. Out of nowhere, the Byz decide to drop a stack on them. There's been some siegeing, rallying, Byz forces coming and going and, after about 4 or 5 years, it finally falls into their hands. They are still neutral but offered alliance a while back. I declined so that my emissary could score some valour out of striking the deal but he and two Princesses have had to chase him via Georgia, Khazar, Crimea (he moved out that turn), Kiev, Carpathia, Bulgaria (the swine won't keep still now I want him) and finally back to the big C, which was the Em's first port of call. C'mon guy, I want that princess married off before she gets to nunnery age!!

EDIT: If lack of agents means you don't know where the other faction leader is but you can see one of their emissaries, drop your Em on theirs and then look at your Em's info parchment. The mission details give the current location of their leader. In this case, it said Crimea for several turns in succession but the nearest ports were Georgia and Constantinople. Like I said, he gave my Em and Princess the slip, attacking Kiev in the turn they moved in, leaving them looking at a deserted province!

Churches are up in Switzerland and Swabia and I'm going to need the morale boost from them soon, by the look of things. I have a 3 star Emperor, a three star Prince (winning provinces without a proper field battle did not get him his fourth star back, it seems) and a four star Prince with mostly low-tech dross up against a 6-7 star Byz Prince and those juicy units of theirs. ~:eek:

Oh and my mismanagement of both the army and the economy means I'm broke, so there's not a lot I can do about it, if they come a-marching in. Fingers crossed that it'll be Tuscany that they go after next, rather than me.

My eastern border has pathetically small forces guarding it at the moment. The Poles and Huns ought to be having a feeding frenzy on me right now but haven't budged. Maybe there's some kind of mutual distrust between them, or they see nothing worth stealing yet, or they're more worried about the threat of the Byz??!!??

I can't say that I'm fully looking forward to what's to come but it certainly has been fun and interesting, so far. Like I said, it's all very well dishing out advice on strategy but actually pulling it off is another matter entirely. For now, it's a case of building up funds again to be able to put in place about half of the policies I suggested. I'll feel a bit more comfortable once I've got some traders in place and, money permitting, the port, keep and shipbuilder which I know I'm going to need to keep me financially afloat for the remainder of the game.

EDITS: Insert extra para and yet more typos!

bretwalda

09-13-2005, 11:38

I really enjoyed these stories so I started a HRE/Early/Hard campaign. This is living on the edge... I am attacked by every neighbour of mine except the Danes and Papacy (oh yeah, I kicked the Italians out of the mainland. I had to do it they managed to get Austria: If I have to be excommed for retaking it I might as well kick them out...)

Reduced the French to two separate provinces when the English attacked and fought them off in bridge battles. I really experience the might of the spearmen and mounted crossbowmen... they are battlewinning.

And amazing how much the v0 low moral spearmen can take. (I cannot afford many churches, nor any high tech buildings...) Princes with their royal knights can also start massrouting the enemy if they can flank. Cool.

However in the east the Hungarians and recently the Polish give trouble. Somehow it seems that nobody makes them busy on the other side of their border... If I could tech up I could roll over them but that does not seem too likely. Probably I try to reduce them and push them to be a buffer zone... Anyway: all plans are rewritten in each and every turn when something new turns up... I expect the Danes and the Papacy to turn on me and that is not gonna be nice... I want to get some ships in the water but they are so fragile and expensive... eh :wink: good game!

EatYerGreens

09-14-2005, 08:44

And amazing how much the v0 low moral spearmen can take. (I cannot afford many churches, nor any high tech buildings...) Princes with their royal knights can also start massrouting the enemy if they can flank. Cool.

Actually, I only have two keeps in all of my territory, which means just two churches - Swabia (FMAA production) and Switzerland (MilSerges). However, they both have archer and spear facilities, so when not busy churning new units, I can cycle old ones through there, to give them the morale bonus for no actual expense. It's a pity there's no indicator on the unit icon or its parchment to show this. Whilst one can generally keep track of how retraining is going during a series of turns, the next time I start a game session, I'll have lost track.

A better way would have been to wait until I had an armourer, get 2 upgrades in one go and a marker to show you've done it.

I'm steadily beginning to appreciate just how much discipline it takes to look after the HRE. Me and the Byz are taking turns at having the largest annual income and/or the biggest army but, in my case, big income is largely academic. So many troops are required to keep all the neighbours at bay that the economy is strangled by the maintainance costs. Worse yet, none of the provinces has an outstanding base-level crop yeild. It's a lot of cash to put in for what seems to be very little return and, of course, you never know whether you're going to be invaded right after you've splashed out half of your entire treasury on the next farm upgrade, or whatever.

I think a bank balance of around 1000 is about as low as I'll ever dare to go - that's enough to buy a bunch of troops for some dire emergency. I'm up to the year 1125 at the moment and my bank balance isn't a lot greater than that!!

So, running the HRE is rather like life. Bags of things you want/need but, instead of that, you end up spending on other stuff, simply because it's all you can afford. ~:handball:

If it wasn't for all the constant fighting they have to do and the troop replenishment which naturally follows, I'd have built quite a healthy infrastructure by now.

I'm seriously considering a radical, experimental approach, in my next attempt at starting HRE/Early (no plans to restart just yet). Basically pick 4 or 5 'core' provinces, withdraw the bulk of my troops to that area, leaving only token forces in the outlying provinces. Earn money from those for as long as they last. Let invaders take what they will but defend the core without fail. Let the other factions spend the money on developing what was my outer reaches. Meanwhile a small army and a good cashflow allows me to advance crops, castles and training facilities to the point where I can mobilise a tough force and start pushing them back. The money from pillage will feed further mobilisation and infrastructure repairs in reconquered lands. By this time, their should be some choice governor candidates available too.

It just might work!

EatYerGreens

09-14-2005, 10:06

I completely forgot to reply about spears. I've always found them to be useful and, since about 95% of my game experience has been in Early, I never really feel comfortable without at least two units of them in every border stack.

The French, in Toulouse, had built about 7 units of Hobilars, which I had constantly been expecting to attack and chop up the archers I'd built, to counter the 11 or so archer units the French had stacked in Lorraine. I decided I had to take Toulouse while it was still a no-retreat zone for them.

I know most people hate bridge battles but I hit upon a plan where I could actually use the bridge to my advantage. I attacked Toulouse from Provence, specifically to make it a river crossing. I was able to push across the bridge using just spears and the choke point meant that they couldn't properly flank me. Meanwhile, my archers can setup within range of them without fear of being charged at and pick off horses while the spears merely hold poition on the far end. By the time I'd got a third spear unit across, they'd wasted the better part of their horsemen on foolish attempts to beat me back. They had very few foot troops and would have been better off defending further back, or to one side, allowing me to cross and then using their speed and maneuverability to the maximum, to get around the flanks, behind me, cutting off my escape etc. Yeah, we all know how dumb the AI can be....

I had two FMAA with me but they didn't even start to cross until the bridgehead was established and most of their horsemen were impaled or shot. If I'd sent them first, they would have been arrow fodder and, if they had turned their backs on the horses, they would have been goners.

I should point out that my Emperor was in charge, with 3-stars (the prince who lost a star in the Venice battle; this time he got it back but he's now the Emperor), so these spears were boosted to v1 for the battle. Come to think of it, I don't think you get v1 spears fresh from training until you've built the master level spearmaker. ~:confused:

The real test of v0 spears came very soon afterwards. My Emperor moves back to Burgundy, leaving a 0-star FMAA in charge. I autocalced the siege, since it was a keep and I had no siege gear. Cheesy, I know but I won it and got a general's promotion out of it.

The Aragonese attack the following year with some RKs and a unit of archers. Two archers of mine were set in a tempting position and shoot up a good few RKs as the come up the slope but, when a pair of RKs charges together, one lot get chased away and severely carved up. The remaining RKs I take on using the trees at the map-edge to the utmost. The Aragonese king parks himself about 5 ranks' distance from my two spear units, in holdpos. Well, if he won't attack me, I'll oblige. I charge both simultaneously, to a position just behind him, rather than explicitly an attack instruction. Only one engages properly, the other has to about-face and come back but, as my FMAA general emerges from the treeline to join the fun, he makes a run for it before the about-face unit can properly hit from behind and trap him. Shame, I could have done with the cash.

So that general is now a 2-star. About time I had a general who wasn't a Royal unit.

Provence is no longer on the front line, so I leave only enough men to maintain the tax rates. Silly me - in come the Italians, by sea! I sally out and bring in troops from every conceivable direction. Naturally the Italians bring in follow up troops and I find myself attacking a 5-star general. Fortunately, they didn't bring nearly enough troops and the battle was mostly an exercise in groupings and maneuvers. I think they refused the ransom, so they really are on the ropes. Another victory for the Emperor.

Byz never did attack Tuscany in the end and I should have attacked their while the garrison was still puny. As of now, it's another full stack and I'm not quite ready to take it on yet. Papal warning for Italy expires soon, I hope.

Another warning came up after Toulouse and they retaliated by going into Friesland again. I lifted the siege immediately and got to use my three units of Vikings for the first time. Battle timer is still on and took about a quarter of the limit just to find out whereabouts in that huge patch of trees they were hiding. They would have fared much better out in the open, to use the four or five archers units they had to full effect. They can't seem to fire properly when deep in the trees themselves and I hit from two directions with pez and UMs. My men routed a bit but rallied and, once I had the rough location of the enemy, I set the Vikings loose, to comb through the woods and they were scattered all across the map. So much for hide-and-seek. That'll teach 'em ~D

The Vikings go back to Saxony and the shrunken garrison is visited again. Strangely they use 5 archer units and nothing else. Cool, I get to use 'rush' on the AI, at long last! Everything right up against the markers and only about 50 yards to dash. I think they got about three rounds off at me before they bolted. :charge:

I have a feeling this was a repeat of their previous effort to knock a homeland off me just in time for the points year and they even make allowances for siege duration in when to time the attack. Chasing off the archers was 1124 and no attack was made in 1125 itself, as this would have gained them little.

I am currently in second place, on 25 points (still 1 homeland down) previously something like 4th/5th, on 12 points, with the Almohads leading, on 26. Well chuffed, I was.

That reminds me. There seem to be two glitches in the GA points table. Firstly, it tells me I get one point for conquest 'for every 5 provinces taken' and retaking homelands doesn't count, apparently. I've only captured three so far yet it gave me a point anyway.

Secondly, the French have Antioch, Palestine and Tripoli listed as 'Homelands' and these are shown in grey lettering, for obvious reasons. Shurely shome mishtake??

Oh, a fun thing happened. I got an Emissary to Rome but abandoned ideas of requesting an alliance, since he's allied with Italy, who I'm at war with and Sicily, who will be next on the list - it seems they've poached Naples off the Byz, which explains why the Byz have three stacks in Venice and very lean armies everywhere else. Next thing I know, the pope requests an alliance with me! I just HAD to accept, didn't I? ~:cool:

I had a 1000 off him early in the game and could really use another dose right now. I only have two bishops but they're doing sterling work converting the pagans in Pomerania and Prussia (Poland's) right now. (grovel, grovel)

dgfred

09-14-2005, 16:44

Good stuff EYG! ~:cheers: Enjoying the lurking intently ~:cool: .

My biggest problem in my current HRE game has been Italians and Byzantines
invading from the sea :furious3: , until I built my Med. fleet up to snuff. Now
I have them outnumbered at sea and control most of the Med. Since most of
my ships are built from Denmark, Norway and Venice- it seems the are very
nasty 'battleships' indeed :evilgrin: . Before I gained control the Italians
would keep knocking at Provence and the Byzantines would keep trying for
Venice ~:eek: . Now I am returning the favor to the Byzs ~D .

ajaxfetish

09-15-2005, 01:57

Good to hear all the juicy details in the updates. I've got no idea on the explanation for conquest points, but I'm guessing the French homelands in the levant are because of the "Frankish" crusader states established there during the 1st crusade. I know the French begin with those territories during the high period, and I suppose they might as well consider them homelands during that era and get the points for keeping them-not necessarily an easy task.

OlafTheBrave

09-15-2005, 04:08

Reading this made me decide to reinstall MTW and give the HRE another go at GA. On the first turn I hit Denmark and Venice, Denmark is just something to focus the pope on because on Hard I dont see it happening. Italy retreats from Venice so it is just to good to resist, also by waiting a few turns they will have a inn up in Milan that can be used for mercs to drive them off the mainland. By producing spears, UM and archers out of my first production provinces I was able to keep France at bay. Not that they didnt attack repeatedly I was just able to hold them off. Also since Swabia had a chancelor I built a royal court there after upgrading to keep for some decent cavalry and while expensive the few RKs I have built have been worth their weight in gold.

Since Venice hada keep I built a church and chapter house there. While waiting for ships to reach the holyland I sent two crusades to Pommerania and Prussia. I built keeps in my two iron provinces for troop production. One is geared towards swords and the other currently mounted sargents. Around the early 1100s I had enough of France and since they were down to Champaign, Isle de France and Flanders bordering me it seemed like a good time to rid myself of them and their constant attacks. Also along in this time period I had built up enough troops to finaly take down Denmark.

With a line of ships across the med I launched two crusades that I beefed up with some Fuedal Seargents and archers and hit Plaestine for the big points and Tripoli since it is adjacent. I was contemplating the last two crusade goals or the HRE goal for 1150 when Sicily made up my mind. They broke an alliance and attacked my ships so they have just been smashed out of Naples. On their attempt to retake the province their king bit the dust with no heirs so good ridance. Its currently 1148 and I think I can wrangle the troops I need into Rome to take it without loosing Naples. The bummer of it all is my King Died breaking the excom I got off Sicily but since the pope is 60 I think I will proceed.

Poland and Hungary havent troubled me suprisingly as I am a bit weak on this side of the empire. Pommerania and Prussia do have the good troops left from two crusades so Poland can be delt with if they get upity. The English snipped one of my ships and lost their one ship and absolutly refuse a ceasfire, however with the troops they have they are of no concern at the moment. I wished I had remembered to pay attention to the hero years as both Albrecht de Bar and Henry the Lion are Fuedal Seargents.

dgfred

09-15-2005, 16:01

Nice playing Olaf! ~:cheers: Our playing styles are very similar, but I never
thought of sending Crusades to Prussia and Pommerania :embarassed: . Not
only did you get some excellent troops, but you captured Prussia much
sooner than I was able to ~:cool: .

yesdachi

09-16-2005, 19:28

Here is a little update on my HRE/early/expert game. It is about 1205 and I have been able to completely take over everything north and west of my original starting provinces, plus everything south to the pope. The poles and Hungarians have been a nice little buffer between the Turks and me (although they attack about every 5 years it is still nice to have them there to separate us). The Turks are still the main eastern power. After defeating the French and English (the English must have had massive loyalty as they kept popping in recently conquered provinces, with bills and longbows too), neither would stop attacking me, I thought I could have some peace with my new neighbors the Spanish and Arg. Nope, after sharing boarders for only a few years they both attack me, not at the same time, the Spanish just finished eliminating the Almos and had some nice sized armies. I was still lacking really good troops but I did finally have some decent cash flow so I built some mounted crossbows and royal knights from conquered provinces, and they really helped.

Not only a turn after I finish off the Spanish the Almos reappear in full force, 6 stacks, down in northern Africa, the province next to Morocco, and next to them to the east reappear the Egyptians, with 6 stacks. The Turks left their backdoor half open and the Egyptians will probably make some good ground in reclaiming their conquered lands. The Almos come after me right away and I hold them back in a costly battle (my 5 star general was 1 province away, darn it) in terms of numbers but they were outdated troops so I will mourn their lose but not their support costs as I create new and better units. I think I will spend some time getting my empire in order and watch what the Turks do when the Mongols show.

BTW the Sicilians rule the water and are at war with me after breaking our alliance. I never would have guessed… NOT!

EatYerGreens

09-17-2005, 08:47

Reading about everyone else's successes was, in parts, encouraging, in that it proves the HRE is capable of a lot but, at the same time, disheartening in that it only served to emphasise what a pig's ear I was making of my own effort! :embarassed:

I came within a hair's breadth of jacking in this campaign and restarting it along the lines I'd set out a few posts further back.

I'd kicked the French out of Toulouse but sent my Emperor away to look after the border with France again, Swabia being the province I absolutely must not lose.

While he heads north, a 0-star general performs an autocalc-ed castle assault and gains a star in the process. Soon after, he gets attacked by the Aragonese king and somehow carves a victory out of the situation. Given my dire financial situation, I was severely disappointed that their king escaped my spearmen's clutches but settled for merely getting a 2nd star on the gen and some valour boost. That province should at least be able to look after itself now.

Or so I thought. Not content with having 3 wars against me now (French, Italian and Aragonese), the AI decides it's time the English joined in. It wasn't immediately clear from the displayed AI moves on the strat map but the pre-battle screen showed I was 7-800 versus 1000+. Strangely, the English had less than 16 units showing and the description made no mention of an ally getting involved, on England's side, though it was obvious this was the case.

Instinct said to abandon the province and let them fight it out amongst themselves but I was up for an against-the-odds challenge and hoped my mounted crossbows could maybe take out the Aragonese king and swing things in my favour.

The English fought up-slope but were beating me in spite of that, the Aragonese came in on my flank at the same elevation as me and being engaged by both forces at once was simply impossible to withstand.

I was faced with a ransom of only 480 or so but, with the Treasury at barely 1200, this is a significant amount. I had the cursor hovering on the big 'X' for nearly a minute. Okay, so I needed the men to keep Provence secure, for one thing. He's now only a 1-star, potentially a good runner too but he's an FMAA and possibly still better to be in charge than the green UM general currently in place. So I go ahead and pay up, if only to see if there was any way I could recover from near bankruptcy. (This was the point at which I considered packing in the entire campaign).

I'm glad I didn't.

I think I was content to let the English take Toulouse, at least for the time being, as I was still concentrating my efforts on keeping the French at bay in the north and knocking the Italians off the mainland in the south. It also breaks my border with the Aragonese, which should mean that war comes to an end. I got myself allied to the Byz some time ago, so I can't take Venice. The alliance which the Pope made with me was flashing icons to show the conflicting allegiances and I got the 'Treaty Cancelled' (due to war with Italy) message the following turn, anyway.

Either on the same turn as the loss of Toulouse, or shortly afterward, I attack Tuscany. There is no field battle (I thought this would be compulsory when the defender has no path of retreat), just the message about 'decide they cannot win and are retreating'. As if by a miracle, there is no force left in the castle, no siege to settle. The 600-odd troops there have just vapourised! Pillage money boosts the treasury up to 2000+ florins.

I order some fresh troops and commit to 40% farms in Bavaria, since it's not on a border with any other faction and seemed a safe bet for gambling half my treasury on. I'm surprised to get the 'Insufficient funds!" message at End-Year but relieved to discover that it let me get all the troops I'd ordered and placed the farm upgrade on-hold.

The pushback from Toulouse let me redistribute stacks in such a way that I felt able to attack Lorraine and succeeded in winning against greater numbers. Slight cheating on my part though. Their main force was set wayyy back in the deployment area but the radar-map revealed a blue blob in some woods on the western edge of the map, very disconnected from their defence line and clearly intended to ambush-flank me. I move my whole force over to them, bed in my whole force off-centre and set my left flank to mash up 200 feudal sergeants. He then has to abandon his defence position to rescue the situation, so I can sit and let him come to me. We kind of broke through each others lines and the last of their units to be chased off were way back at the end of the map I was supposed to have entered from.

So now I'm starting to earn ransom money too.

My chronology is a bit out. After the victory, I actually destroyed the 60% farms they'd built (I'd only got Lorraine up to 20%, to give some idea how long they'd held it) partly to get some cash towards my 40% farms in Bavaria and partly to disincentivise the French from wanting to take Lorraine back again. I'll have plenty of time to rebuild it, assuming they play ball and don't attack until after I've shelled out for the repairs...

Lasty, I'd kept a strongish garrison in Genoa for a number of years but capturing Tuscany meant it was no longer under threat. I assumed that the vapourisation of the Italians in Tuscany would mean that a repeat of the Provence attack by sea was no longer on the cards. Foolish and wrong in every regard. Lack of agents on their remaining islands was also a bad idea.

Luckily, the bigger idiot of the two of us was the Italian Doge. He comes into Genoa by sea with 2 RK's, including his, one UM with 60 men, a UM with 1 man and some Genoese Sailors. I have but one unit of archers but they shoot down half of his RKs, who'd hlated to let the foot troops catch up. This provokes them to charge. I thought they'd fixed the 'suicidal Daimyos' problem but both RKs make straight for my spears and Militia Sergeants. Again, my gen and archers are on a hilltop and my defensive line slopes down to my right (it's a coast map). I have 200 peasants as 'surrogate cavalry', down on the flat and he should have seen those off first. They were intended to chase off his archers but they were too far back to be a threat at this point, so I swung them round to come into the rear of his RK's and UMs, already held in a spears sandwich. My MS's were down to 18 men and routed but I still had just enough other to hang on.

Joy unbounded, I get the message about enemy king being captured and what little is left of them makes a run for it. I only see 14 prisoners on the execute button and, tempting as it was to bump him off and get rid of their ships for good, my dire finances still held sway, so I let him live.

I get something over 10k for the silly beggar! I found myself with 12k in the bank and spent so long dithering over what to build now that I simply had to save the game off and get some much-needed sleep.

Struggling on gamely for years trying to recover from the poverty situation (Treasury 1200, profits ~350 pa) may have been highly educational for me but masochism has no place in something which is meant to be a game. One might be able to run a 1-province faction like Denmark or Aragon, sit tight and keep pressing end-year while funds slowly accumulate. I'm fighting battles practically every turn and what little money I make goes on replenishing troop numbers. Basically, I like building stuff ~D

Annnnyway, I'm now loaded :toff: and can set about building up some much-anticipated infrastructure, maybe get a fleet going in a decade or so's time and really get my teeth into this game. I haven't had a bash at crusades since an English campaign from months ago and that is now in the realms of affordability but some years of building and training still to come.

I got my excom at long last, after retaking Lorraine and forgetting the expiry date on the last warning but, sadly, the second Emperor in a row has died of natural causes in his fifties and the latest is only 17. Losing the first one's 'steward' bonus is what first drove the economy from 'healthy' to heading into the gutter in the first place. I simply couldn't afford any of the 40% improvements after he'd gone. They really ought to make that trait 'inheritable', don't you think?

Meanwhile, the Byz have lost some key homelands to the Turks but have run rampant everywhere else. I don't have agents in the right places but using the pick-up-and-hover-over trick, I can tell that much of southern Russia is theirs and the Huns have taken a beating. Venice is no longer an outpost of the Byz either ~:eek: since the Balkans are now theirs. The Turks have a good enough foothold to play a significant role in the later game.

What with all the battles needing to be fought, I'm only up as far as 1136, so this is still early days. For now, I'm off to decide how I'm going to use all that loot. ~:cool:

OlafTheBrave

09-17-2005, 10:16

Budwise

09-17-2005, 10:25

If its any consolation I have played the HRE more than once so I more or less know what to expect. I think the real key to them is quickly driving Italy off the mainland in the first 10 or so turns and concentrating on keeping France at bay. Also due to the size of the HRE if you can ever survive long enough to get your legs under you it easy to become a real powerhouse.

I"M SOLD, I thought my next game would be the French but I always had a thing for Germany. I have played too many games killing them (I also play First Person Shooters and Nazi Hunting Season was plentiful this year) and always wanted to play them. Now, I am good at this game, if I wasn't - I wouldn't be posting here. But I always was a little awkward with a two front empire. I guess thats why I love the Elmos, Danes and British. I guess I need a swift kick in the butt - the kind like seeing a warning next to your name for a stupid reason.

Well, I'm sold - I also want to say that when I watched the newer Gladiator movie. I SO WANTED THE GERMANS to win that opening battle. I mean come on, when the dude though the head I thought it was freaking sweet.

ajaxfetish

09-17-2005, 20:55

With that 12K I would be sure to get a castle started in Swabia, if you haven't already. Also, if you're still holding on militarily, it'd probably be a good idea to get some of those farms up a level to make higher income more than a one-time thing.

Congrats on pushing the Italians off the mainland and good luck vs. the English & French. Has anyone else gone to war with you or is that it? If so you can concentrate all your best troops on the one front and pray the Byzantines and Pope leave you alone long enough to be ready for them!

yesdachi

09-18-2005, 21:24

Glad you didn’t pack it in EYG! ~D It sounds like you may have just turned the corner on the starting pains with the ransom money you got from the Italians. (If you get the chance I would love to see a screen shot of where you are at) In my game I produced a lot of troops with some cash I received, not a hefty amount like you got but I got $2,000 for a French prince, and used it to push thru the rest of the French and English. I was able to get a nice solid boarder but my infrastructure suffered, seemed to be worth it in the long run.

OlafTheBrave is right on the money, once I got my legs under me I was a powerhouse and could defend pretty well.

Just out of curiosity where do you guys keep your king? I am manually controlling taxes and trying to keep everyone at normal but I am already seeing some bad $ vices. Would king placement help.

EatYerGreens

09-19-2005, 01:20

With that 12K I would be sure to get a castle started in Swabia, if you haven't already.

Done and it's now fully built. It's 1148 and I'd just set the Swordsmith's Workshop to be built at the point where I saved. It had been quite a long session and I decided to do a proper gamesave at that point but the darned thing crashed to desktop between pressing the escape key and arriving at the menu screen! Good job I always do a quick-save before exiting to the menu and fingers crossed that there's no file corruption with it.

Also, if you're still holding on militarily, it'd probably be a good idea to get some of those farms up a level to make higher income more than a one-time thing.

Bavaria is already up to 40% but it has recently completed a keep and I only need to develop the spearmaker workshop (from town watch up) to get decent cavalry at long last (the horde breeder is already in place but only one MXB has seen action, to date and only three have been built) so it's going to be busy for a few years yet. Milan has a high acumen governor, so it's been brought up to 40% to make the most of that. Provence would probably give the biggest boost at 40% but is on the frontline and I'm wondering if the build would simply make it more attractive to invaders. For the money, I'd rather buy troops and retake Toulouse first.

I've spent so much that I'm down to about 4k, which is all more or less spoken for in upcoming builds, one of which is repairing Genoa or Tuscany's fort back to keep level, plus trade post, with the port being added afterwards, so that I don't gift too much income to the Byz and Sicilian ships, currently offshore, too soon. Shipbuilder to follow...

Congrats on pushing the Italians off the mainland and good luck vs. the English & French. Has anyone else gone to war with you or is that it? If so you can concentrate all your best troops on the one front and pray the Byzantines and Pope leave you alone long enough to be ready for them!

Thanks. Well, the Pope is minding his own business and I'm not about to attack him. Meanwhile, I'm cycling my stocks of UM through Tuscany, for the valour upgrades, yet wondering if I'm wasting my time doing that, since I can have armoured MilSerges from Switzerland for the same maint costs. The only difference is that retraining is free and doesn't increase my maint costs total, whereas fresh MS will do.

The Byz cancelled their treaty with me thanks to the Danes attacking me in Saxony. They piled into Sardinia and wiped out the ex-Italian rebels with ease and, perhaps due to the lack of a fort on the island, the port wasn't smashed, which was disappointing.

It could be that I'm next on their menu and it suddenly occurred to me that I have never faced an AI-controlled Byz army, in any campaign! ~:eek: I've no idea how well the Cathy units hold up against BI, for instance. Never mind the 8-star jedi princes, I have so few star-rated generals to begin with and all of them are in the wrong place. Their 3-star gen in Venice could make a mess of my thinly held eastern front. The Poles have full stacks across the border, so I have no idea why they're not coming my way too. I need to get more agents out there, to work out what size of Byz forces they're defending against.

Oh, before the Danes hit Saxony, the English paid a couple of visits, by sea. They'd come in, beat me up, then my Emperor in Fraconia would take it back. I killed their king but they repaid the favour when I'd left a brand new prince in charge of the defence battle. He had the same star-rating as my emperor and the balance of forces looked favourable, so I went ahead. I swear the pre-battle screen had lied to me about the units they'd come with. Something like 2 units of hobilars appeared on the field which were not on their unit list. My archers skirmished away, drawing them onto my spears, which mauled them badly but took some losses themselves. The real pity was my spears were intended to be there to trap the single RK unit I'd been expecting (the gen, a Plantagenet ex-Prince) and never got the chance.

The battle was at a stage where it could have gone either way and, whatever it was I'd sent my prince to chase after, he got snagged on a unit I'd not aimed him at, possibly MilSerges, meaning good against armour.

I keep reading about 'charge, disengage, charge again' but I keep getting unit control icons greying out, so I can't disengage, even if I want to. He just kept on fighting until he got killed :embarassed: and that was the end of that.

I drove them out again with my Emperor, picked up more ransom, 900-odd, but by now most of my Vikings are gone and I can't adequately garrison Saxony without exposing Franconia to the French force in Friesland. This is the point where the Danes moved in. I think a fort was a year or two from completion when the Danes attacked, so that was 400 florins down the drain. On the other hand, we all know what the AI is like with ceasefire requests, so they may have saved me some money in that attempts to establish a Baltic trading fleet are now pointless, so they've saved me some investment costs up there and I can concentrate on the Med.

On the upside, I have the two 'hero' generals, Albrecht de Bar and Henry the Lion but, unfortunately, they've both come out as Militia Sergeants, when I'd rather they'd have been something stronger, or more mobile, like cav of some kind.

I forget which year but an extra GA goal has appeared on the list, which wasn't there at the beginning of the game. It's the one about 'The Holy Roman Empire', where Rome and the former Italian states are on the list. Fortunately, I've got two of the required provinces already, worth 3 pips and points year is only three turns away. The pope only has his RK unit in Rome and I could probably take it right now, using only UMs but a full castle means a long siege and I'm not ready for immediate excom on my young Emperor at the moment. :juggle2:

EDIT: Reason: Got Albrecht's name wrong.

EatYerGreens

09-19-2005, 01:38

Glad you didn’t pack it in EYG! ~D It sounds like you may have just turned the corner on the starting pains with the ransom money you got from the Italians. (If you get the chance I would love to see a screen shot of where you are at)

I could do that but not sure whether it would be better placed in the 'History and pics' thread. It's nothing spectacular at the moment anyway. Friesland is in French hands, Venice is held by the Byz and I've taken Genoa, Milan and Tuscany.

The French have just 4 UMs in Champagne, currently worth about 600 a year and I could have strided into there several turns ago but got distracted by all the action in Saxony and didn't wish to weaken my Lorraine garrison and risk losing both by moving too soon. Basically too few decent generals overall. Enough to hold what I have but not yet in a position to expand.

I suppose the idea is that I get a green general to earn some stars and this has been happening but they're getting clobbered by 5-star hero generals from the English and French and losing their stars just as fast. To get a green general to win, I'd need overwhelming numbers to do so and a cashflow around the 500 mark severely limits my ability to do that.

Fingers crossed that I can stay on good terms with the Byz and the Sicilians don't get any fancy ideas about seaborne invasions. If so, I can trade with them both and get up off my knees. The only alternative is to make a determined push for Flanders and not fuss if the Danes take Saxony. The French have two stacks in Brittany so, if I knock them out on my side of where the English are, then the two of us can squeeze the English off the continent before we meet again. The English are quite a threat at the moment but, as soon as I've got the Swabian swordsmen and some Mounted Sergeants, then I'm going after them :charge:

ajaxfetish

09-19-2005, 07:59

Of course your best defense against the Sicilians or anyone else with piratical invasion tendencies will be to get a ship or two in the med to patrol your shores. Fortunately that's also a prerequisite to bringing in trade income. You can use your next princess to try to reestablish good relations with Byzantium, but my success rate is pretty dismal with that tactic. I think you're right on track aiming for Flanders. It will soon become the most lucrative province in your Empire and also box the English homelands off from the continent.

Once you've got Swabians and MS's coming online, you can retire some of your outdated troops to other fronts (Denmark, Poland, Italy) where numbers may be enough to dissuade further aggression, and use your fancy new guys to crush France & Britain. If you throw in a few archers with your Swabians, MS's, and a decent general, you'll have a versatile powerhouse of an early army and accumulating stars shouldn't be as difficult anymore.

I'd also make it a priority when you can to get ahold of a brothel as well. A good spy network is invaluable in maintaining loyalty across a large realm and this tends to be a significant weakness for the likes of the Germans.

Schlagen Sie bitte die Franzosische gern!

EatYerGreens

09-20-2005, 06:07

Sound advice there, ajax.

Finances again ran low, at one point, which again delayed my construction plans, down south. Like I said, the keep (Genoa or Tuscany, when I make my mind up) will go in place before the port, so that the Byz don't make a mint out of additional trading with me, if I did it the other way around. Another 6 years(?) for the shipbuilder then 3 more for the first vessel to roll out. Sicily is likely to be my first trade partner or even Aragon. The loss of Toulouse to the English at least brought the war with Aragon to an end and they have a port just two ships away. Maybe the trickle of import income could help them out a little too?

Because of the Byz stack in Venice, I've had to keep stacks, of mainly militia, in Tyrolia, Milan and Genoa, the latter two being the bigger earners and now up to 40% farms. The Byz could also strike at Austria from there but haven't, seeing as I can retreat to the fort and strike back later. At some stage, I managed to restore the alliance with them but I'm on my guard, nonetheless.

Unless anyone knows different, I'm not expecting the Pope to strike at me. He keeps a near-full stack in Papal States and just his bodyguard in Rome. I held a stack in Tuscany for some years, mainly to assure loyalty after the takeover and was recently able to cut it down to a garrison of 240 without a drop in taxes. This allowed a chain of moves to cope with action in the north and east.

Yet another surprise attack by the English took Saxony from me, in 1148. This should have been predicted, given points year was approaching yet again. GA really seems to affect the way the AI behaves and it will go to any lengths to take points off you where better strategic targets may be available elsewhere. The loss of Saxony broke the border with Denmark, ending that war and enabling me to ally with the Byz again. The following year, the English king attacked Brandenburg and, being a river crossing, I opted to accept the battle but used a defence style I'd not tried before and made a hash of it. Just two RK's mashed up 2 full spear units and a UM when my three-direction sandwiching trick failed to work. Their 3 archer units stayed out of harm's way for much of the battle and it seems that their crossing the bridge and opening fire was what finally swung it. My 0-star UM general got "weak defender" for his troubles. I wonder if this is linked to the kills ratio as it was heavily in their favour at the end?

The Poles finally made a move, striking at Bohemia just in time for points year, so I was down by three homelands when the count came in. Thanks to the 3 points for the 'HRE' goal, I somehow contrived to sneak into a 2 points lead, in 1150.

All of this was what prompted the stack shuffling from Tuscany northwards. One of the Princes attacked out of Bavaria to lift the siege and the Poles withdrew without a fight. The Emperor lifted the siege in Brandenberg, similarly with no battle. Leaving a stronger garrison in place, he moves back to Franconia, so as to avoid the river crossing into Saxony and the general who lost Brandenberg has his unit disbanded. The Tavern is not yet complete, so he can consider himself lucky not to have suffered a worse fate.

Cashflow is slightly negative at this point and a certain amount of desperation calls for some bold moves. Flanders and Champagne have puny garrisons for some reason, whilst Isle de France and Friesland have the big ones. Henry the Lion takes a half stack into Champagne and a no-star general takes a similarly sized force into Flanders. Both retreat to their castles. A heavy counterstrike is expected but, craftily, I pull back both forces to Lorraine, to defend there and Lorraine's stack attacks Friesland. They used two large stacks to retake Flanders and, inexplicably, no garrison whatsoever was left in Friesland, so it was taken without resistance and about 1100 in pillage money was obtained. Unfortunately, the port and trade post got destroyed in the process, amongst other items.

In the same year, the Emperor strikes at Saxony and the English suffer a crushing defeat. Another English king plays the hero and gets himself killed. A pity, I'd rather have taken the money... again. ~;) Sir Henry Roos was captured, so the remaining prisoners fetched a handy 900+ florins and the treasury looks healthy again.

So all the homelands are restored and a bishop secures a ceasefire with the Polish. This might have something to do with the Danes having invaded Pomerania. Not sure when that happened but the brief English invasion was enough to break the border with the Danes, end that war, enabling the Byz alliance to be restored and the Poles' war with the Danes maybe helped make the idea of a ceasefire attractive. Stars to my Emissary and Bishop, so I'm happy. Slightly different timing and none of that would have worked.

The only fly in the ointment is an English crusade to the middle east, which looks to be taking a land route, right through the heart of my territory. Burgundy looks to be its next stop. I've frequently been getting lists of 10 fresh V&V's at a time and 'Fervent' is a popular one amongst my unit leaders. Zeal ranges from 60-85% in my lands, so I'm expecting a whole bunch of my men to get vacuumed up by this thing. I'm still years away from a chapter house and my first crusade and need to exploit this zeal factor while I still can. This is the second English crusade - their first one, to Livonia, failed but didn't trigger any troubles for them so I don't expect to gain anything by blocking this one's progress.

At some point, I accepted an alliance with the Egyptians, which now seems rather foolish, since 3 out of 4 of my GA crusade targets are in their hands. I don't like being the one who reneges on an alliance but that's the way it'll have to be, when the time comes.

An interesting side effect came from the attacks on the French. Champagne was earning them 648 per year and Flanders slightly over 1000. The sieges deprived them of this income for a full year but there was no way I had enough men to hold onto them. All the same, the enforced change of governors means that one of their guys, with Acumen 8, somehow found himself without a title, after they'd regained their lands but lost Friesland. Champagne is now worth only 300 per year and Flanders around 350. Presumably, the AI can't cope with title-stripping and re-assigning, so this is a permanent dent in their economy. If anything, I think their armies are oversized, relative to their land holdings. This should provoke them to attack me and defensive battles are what I'd prefer right now. If I can get them at war with the English too, then all the better.

I'm puzzled about the Papal warnings system at the moment. My attacks on France got me a fresh warning and I had thought one was already in place, which came after the Danes attacked me. Perhaps the fact that the Danish war ended, thanks to the English, in effect annulled that warning?

In any event, if I can't make any further inroads into the French for ten years, I can at least attack the English (Toulouse) while I wait. A pope recently died and my Emperor is still young. I'd like to avoid excom if at all possible as all the crusading activity needs to take place in the next 50 years or so.

The Swordsmith workshop in Swabia (with church for +1 morale!) is two years from completion and Mounted Sergeants are only a spearmaker's workshop away, so things are about to get interesting. Like ajaxfeish said, the older troop types can look after the south.

dgfred

09-20-2005, 16:02

Good playing and writing EYG! ~:cheers: Thanks for your time and effort.
Lurking forward to your next chapter ~D .

Deus Ex

09-20-2005, 16:41

I'm puzzled about the Papal warnings system at the moment. My attacks on France got me a fresh warning and I had thought one was already in place, which came after the Danes attacked me. Perhaps the fact that the Danish war ended, thanks to the English, in effect annulled that warning?

Actually I think you have the answer right here...

A pope recently died and my Emperor is still young. I'd like to avoid excom if at all possible as all the crusading activity needs to take place in the next 50 years or so.

I would guess the pope died prior to your attack of France. When he died, all ex-communications were annulled (and I assume warnings are as well). So your attack of France got you a warning because your earlier warning was gone with the dead pope - but I could be wrong... *grin*

DE

EatYerGreens

09-21-2005, 07:00

Schlagen Sie bitte die Franzosische gern!

Translation?

Please do ...something... to the French? Would this... :smash: ...be close?

~;)

EatYerGreens

09-21-2005, 07:08

I would guess the pope died prior to your attack of France. When he died, all ex-communications were annulled (and I assume warnings are as well). So your attack of France got you a warning because your earlier warning was gone with the dead pope - but I could be wrong... *grin*
DE

There's so much going on that I do sometimes get the exact sequence of events muddled up but my guess is you're right about this.

There was an excom against me earlier in the game but it didn't last that long. On this occasion, it was only a warning in force. The message about the death of the pope only mentions excoms being void and doesn't mention warnings being affected as well but here we have fairly conclusive proof that it does. Something to look out for, in future.

EatYerGreens

09-21-2005, 07:41

The story continues...

That English crusade was on its way to Tripoli and I fully expected Burgundy to be its next stop. To avoid troop 'suckage', I moved the Burgundy stack to Provence, brought in a seige-type garrison from Milan and used the Provence stack to attack Toulouse, hoping to inflict heavy casualties at the bridge, if not win outright.

The English confounded me by abandoning Toulouse with no battle, then the Crusade marched its way into Lorraine and hoovered up enough that 60 man units were down to below 40. Grrr.

I knew the English would strike back at Toulouse with anything up to two stacks and that I had to reverse my previous moves so that Provence and Burgundy both had full stacks once again. I made sure to destroy everything in Toulouse first, for the cash. A fort/motte, 20% farms, Horse Breeder and salt mine, most of which I think I built myself. No more hobilars from there for a while... I'll leave them be until they've used up some of their own dough on rebuilding the place, since they've been costing me a fair penny elsewhere...

For te second time, I attempt to put a fort in place in Saxony so that, if they do invade, they get no income from it and I can counterattack and take yet more prisoners. In the year where I start the build, they attack again, with superior numbers and I'm forced to abandon, losing another 400 florins. I should have spent 500 on the Chapter House, elsewhere, instead. Gah!

The first Swabian swords are rolling out and one is in Franconia, ready to go into the forthcoming battle.

My Bishops have been surveying the route to the Middle East and, in 1153, witnessed Constantinople being invaded by the Turks. The city is still under siege and 'about to fall'. The Byz Emperor watches, somewhat impotently with his half-stack in Greece. The lack of response is most curious since he has large stacks at his disposal, in the Balkans and recently wiped out the Hungarians. It was slightly amusing when I'd set an emissary to request an alliance with him but, by the end of the turn, he was trapped in his castle and politely stating that he didn't see the purpose of one at this time. (So much for stock replies!). ~;)

Meanwhile, much shuffling of troops while this crusade passed through my lands. I tried to get some of my peasant units to tag along and get soaked up, with some success. I should be disbanding them completely by now but preferred a gradual reduction in numbers, instead of large and sudden reductions in troop numbers. The crusade advanced into Hungary and saw the message that 'The Byzantines have decided they cannot win the battle and are retreating'. Evidently they were not happy to grant it freedom of passage. Strange choice, given this thing is probably going to meet a hostile reception in Constantinople and maybe even play a part in the relief of the city. We shall see.

The Poles retook Pemoerania and there's a large stack there glowering at Brandenberg. Only the river crossing stood to deter them but I did increase the garrison and put one of the hero generals in place on the last turn, although this had more to do with keeping the English shut into Saxony.

I'm still in two minds whether to take prisoners this time. I still really need the ransom money but common sense tells me that the only way to assure I'm left alone for enough time to get the fort in place is to inflict maximum casualties and cost them both time and money in assembling a force for another attack. Currently, there's just over 1000 of them in there.

My first asssassin is now on the loose (from Switzerland) and his first target was a 1-star French emissary, spying in Burgundy. Landlocked provinces are such fun. ~;) Scratch one emissary...

Roark

09-21-2005, 08:44

1. The Poles can keep Pomerania, IMHO... Are you allied to them, EYG?
2. Are the Danes looking like they're bankrupt, or are they a potential threat to the English?

EatYerGreens

09-21-2005, 11:03

1. The Poles can keep Pomerania, IMHO... Are you allied to them, EYG?
2. Are the Danes looking like they're bankrupt, or are they a potential threat to the English?

I'm not allied to the Poles at the moment, no. I forget if I was in the past. If anything they may have turned me down. They did recently attack and I got a star onto an emissary in arranging a ceasfire, so they have served a purpose. For now, I'm going to leave them alone as they seem to be the only thing keeping the Byz from running rampant up the western end of the Steppes. Mind you, the Byz now have a little, errr, problemette of their own, at home. I can't believe they let slip so much of their homelands - this is GA, after all.

The Poles are welcome to Pomerania. I'm not utterly broke but I need to concentrate developments in my core provinces and can't afford to develop any new lands I take, so I'm happy to let them spend their money on it and I can rob them when the time is right. ~D Also, if they and Denmark can keep squabbling over the place and this keeps both of them out of my hair, then I'm happy.

As for Danes' threat to the English? I need to recon more. Last I looked they hold Sweden and Norway, with Sweden's income in the 800-900 bracket, likely much more by now. No signs of any conflict with the English and I only wished I knew how to provoke wars between AI factions.

I've often speculated about the consequence of assassinating faction A's agent on faction B's home soil but getting past border forts to be able to pull this off is easier said than done. Some provinces lacking even BWT's do still exist but not in the right places, if you know what I mean (eg Venice -> Byz).

The Danish king offered me a daughter, which I happily accepted as no-one was taking any of mine lately. No guarantee of peace, I know, but it's a start.

I read another thread today where someone says you can gain influence by lifting sieges on behalf of your allies, so I'll look out for such opportunities now. Obviously, since the human player moves first, it's not possible to assist an ally in a straight battle, other than by pure fluke, because you can't predict what they're about to do.

I'm lucky the papal warning was about the French, as their two and a half stacks in Brittany plus the rest must be throttling their income after I pulled that switcheroo and messed up his governorships. Checking again, I see that Flanders income was the lower figure, 300-odd and Champagne 348. I've probably shaved 1000pa off their income and they don't seem to be mobilising anything on my side of the English holdings. A ten year wait before I take them on is no big deal. Besides, it's the English I need to be thwacking now and I can do this with impunity.

In truth, I'd rather not have any local conflict at all and get started on this Crusading business instead. Money, time, building requirements and how many troops can be spared to beef it up are the big concerns right now.

It's even a toss up where to place the darned Chapter House. Places with high zeal have minimal training facilites and no armourer (actually, no armour might be a good thing). Places with good facilites may not have the best zeal and I also want to avoid having training of things like sword units plugged shut for 4 years at a stretch. I'm raising fresh troops on every turn, to replace losses from all the constant fighting.

Getting this fort built in Saxony, once and for all, will be a great relief and give me more freedom of movement with my stacks. Put the meaty troops into Franconia and hit back at any lost (sieged, I mean) border areas from there.

Time to quit blabbing and get playing...

ajaxfetish

09-22-2005, 04:20

Translation?

Please do ...something... to the French? Would this... :smash: ...be close?

~;)

Very close ~;)

Schlagen-verb: to hit (imperative mood)
Sie-pronoun: you (formal) (subject)
bitte: please
die-article: the (feminine)
Franzosische (should be an umlaut over the o)-noun/adjective: French (direct object)
gern: with pleasure

all auf Deutsch since you're playing the HRE!

ps my German's a bit rusty by now so any German members may be cringing at my grammar, but I'm sure they get the drift.

OlafTheBrave

09-22-2005, 04:32

Just wanted to say that I think your after action reports of the battles are much better and more detailed than mine EYG. My Russian campaign is more of in a story format as your is a progress report type thing. Keep posting the updates because I am sure more than just me want to see if you can still pull a GA win out of this. The HRE can be difficult when all goes rather well so I can imagine the headaches you are having.

EatYerGreens

09-22-2005, 18:37

The HRE can be difficult when all goes rather well so I can imagine the headaches you are having.

I'm finding the whole thing highly educational, shall we say.

Technical troubles have kept me from ever finishing any campaign but my prior experience has been confined to the English, Byzantines and Almos, all in Early and only one English campaign got as far as High era before devloping a repeating glitch.

All of those can be said to have either kick-ass units in Early, uber-generals or capacity for sheer economic might, which keeps your tech at the cutting edge which does nothing but flatter the player into thinking they're a military genius.

The HRE has an unremarkable economic base, farm upgrades compete for funds with other demands and take an age to afford. Sea trade will come, in time but even that will require prolonged peace to make much gains from.

The unit roster is no better than any of the neighbours and the starred generals are thin on the ground, so you have to make the most of what you've got until unique units, like Swabian Swords, can be obtained - and there's a lot of investment required to get those.

I've suffered numerous defeats at the hands of the AI, which is sobering after past experiences of almost non-stop victories (as the other factions) but I generally manage to win back the lost ground by using the top generals.

The frequent casualties have slowed the infrastructure growth, on account of the need for constant mobilisation but, if anything, the only thing propping up the economy is all this constant battling and the ransom/pillage it has brought. Fighting at times not of my choosing was initially quite draining but it all builds experience of what battles are like at hard difficulty. Hopefully, it will hone my skills somewhat.

All in all, running the HRE needs much more discipline, careful management of the economy, decisive prioritising of infrastructure builds and overall strategy. Budwise's comment about the big difference of running a two-front empire are highly appropriate, in this regard.

My last shot at running the Byzantines (Normal difficulty) had got halfway across Africa and I've not gone back to it since starting this. Frankly I think I was getting bored with the interminable troop movements each turn entailed and it was looking increasingly like I was going to win but it would still take hours of slog to do so. It's the uncertainty about what might happen next which maintains my interest in the game and a predictable future makes me want to pack it in and start another one.

dgfred

09-22-2005, 20:20

An almost 'predictable future' is the reason I too hardly ever finish a game.

The HRE is more = never a dull moment :dizzy2: . I have also tried on expert
and the difference is less money, fewer (if you can believe that)
good acumen governors, and a more aggressive AI. Not as much fun to me
because of the lack of govs at the start. I like at least 4 quills for a gov.
Other factions are much easier on the harder levels, but that is why I like
to stay with HRE ~;) .

ajaxfetish

09-22-2005, 20:32

Frankly I think I was getting bored with the interminable troop movements each turn entailed and it was looking increasingly like I was going to win but it would still take hours of slog to do so. It's the uncertainty about what might happen next which maintains my interest in the game and a predictable future makes me want to pack it in and start another one.
Same here. I have yet to finish a game to 100% on the medieval map (a few times on Viking). Once my empire reaches a critical mass the chance of failure pretty much goes away, and so does the fun. It's a bummer because I like working up to some of the supercool late period troops (gothic knights, swiss armoured pikes, etc.), and by the time I get there there's nothing to challenge them. After a battle or two with a high-tech army everyone just withdraws to avoid you. I'd love to see AI factions fielding more of these types of guys.

EatYerGreens

09-23-2005, 15:51

I spent so much time on the forum yesterday that I didn't get any time to progress the game itself and I've kind of lost the thread of where I'd got to.

Here's the most recent map picture I took, which is already some years back.

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0226.jpg

I forget how many kings I've killed off so far, I think it must be three. After paying me 10k to get their king back and already three provinces down, it was almost understandable that the Italians sent their king and a prince by themselves and got them both killed. In a way, the AI is clever enough to suicide itself when deep in irreversible debt as at least there's a chance of re-emergence with a magically restored bank balance! Two English kings have also got themselves killed in Saxony.

In their latest invasion, they again arrived with overwhelming numbers and I abandoned the place without a fight, so as to be able to counterattack with a better choice of troops. This time their king stayed at home, so perhaps he's still young and has no heirs yet, so it's not taking any risks. Instead, he sends Nobles to look after business. Things must be getting desperate as he sent over no less than 4 governors too. Here's what became of them...

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0220.jpg

Haw, haw, haw. (Is that gloaty enough?) ~D

Oh, the best is yet to come. I don't know if you get to see this sort of thing often but here's what popped up right after that message.

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0221.jpg

And, just to cap it off, my leader gained a rank, following that battle, making him command 4. He started as rank 3, I checked the battle result screens and it is indeed his fourth victory (rank 3 = 4 wins, rank 4 = 8 wins). Luckily abandoning provinces without battle doesn't count against your tally but this can work against you when the AI pulls out without battle, preventing a green general, say, from gaining a star.

The timing of their excom couldn't have been any better. I'd got the Chapter House under way in Franconia and it wasn't long before I'd trained up my first crusade marker.

That last battle in Saxony hit the English hard. They'd had just over 1000 men there and none of them came home. The French also let me be for a change so a number of turns went by without any further attacks. I get the feeling that we've turned a corner and the AI factions no longer feel in a position to do us any mischief. At the third attempt (three times the expense, in other words), the fort in Saxony finally gets completed and, at last, I can leave it a small garrison and defend from Franconia, as before, only this time they get no income from there if they do invade.

Toulouse has nearly two stacks of English in it, so I launch my crusade at Anjou - it's got 80% farms and is worth 666 florins a year to them. The Pope fully approves and charges me nothing. Zeal in Franconia is something like 86% (I have a lot of 'Fervent' generals and 'Zealot' governors at the moment). In spite of that, I don't get the horde of fanatics I expected, just 1 unit of Gothic Knights and 2 of Gothic Sergeants. I have to stuff it with peasants and a big chunk of Lorraine's garrison to get it up to 1400 men, though I do bung a Swabian Swords unit in there to make sure it packs a punch. When it arrives at its destination the English retreat to the keep without any battle, which is a bit of a let-down. That's the point at which I saved the game. I expect to suffer some minor losses due to the siege but I can live with that. I did drop it on the castle to trigger an assault, then thought twice and cancelled it because it said the castle should fall in one year. As we all know, this usually means a handful of defenders will remain but I can autocalc an assault right after that, with good chance of success and only light casualties.

It was tempting to keep the crusade hanging around for a while because the suspension of maintainance costs caused my cashflow to shoot up to over 1000 per year (previously around 500) but I thought I might as well get on with it, get the next crusade trained and then set about getting the GA crusade goals while there's still time.

The crusade has already boosted my leader's influence up to 5 and heirs are being born at a steady rate, so they should benefit from that. A number of princes have recently come of age, mixture of 2 and 3 stars so they are spreading around the Empire to head up my principal stacks and I'm more comfortable about my chances in forthcoming battles.

Taking Anjou disconnects England's continental holdings, so I'm expecting to be attacked there on a regular basis and need to defend it well. If I'm lucky, it may force them to redistribute their ships, in order to move troops about and this should cut their trade with the Danes. If the two of them war, then it will need to keep its ships in the north to prevent invasion of the Isles, which only have tiny garrisons.

If I'm very lucky, they will use troops from Toulouse to recapture Anjou and the movement may give me an opportunity to take Toulouse once again.

The Poles recently sent forces into Saxony and Bohemia but, in spite of what looked like bigger stacks, decided they could not win both battles. May have been down to foul weather? Wait until GA points year approaches, I think I may pay Silesia a visit. :evilgrin:

dgfred

09-23-2005, 16:23

Nice work EYG ~:cheers: , you seem to be turning the corner of victory ~D .

Smack the Poles, they shouldn't give you too much trouble and that will be
the last problems you have with them. Are the Byzantines 'loyal' to you?
They seem to have a fixation with getting Venice in my games instead of
protecting/conquering eastward ~:confused: . Looking forward to your
updates ~:cool: .

EatYerGreens

09-23-2005, 18:34

Nice work EYG ~:cheers: , you seem to be turning the corner of victory ~D .

Well, the constant attacking seems to have abated, at least for now, so it does feel like turning a corner and some stablity has been reached. It's now my turn to take the initiative on who gets attacked and when.

Once the Anjou crusade finishes sieging and unlocks its troops, I'm hoping that province will focus the attentions of the English for long enough for me to get more infrastructure into Saxony. I won't mind if I ultimately lose Anjou again, as long as the fighting is there and not in the homelands.

In fact, it will be a while before more building in Saxony as Genoa now has its port and the shipbuilder starts on the next turn. The cost of the first pair of ships isn't great but the tresury is low enough that it will make a significant dent, so there are limits as to how many builds I can do at once. It simply requires some patience on my part but the ships have priority as that gives me the income to do other things. It only remains to be seen whether the Sicilian and Byz ships, off my southern coast, will even allow me to gain a foothold and trade at all, or whether they will fight and blockade right away.

Naples is an item on the HRE goals but Sicily holds it now and that will cost me trade and troop movement ability straight away. I think that's only worth one point too, making it seem more trouble than it's worth. Rome is 3 points on the HRE goal but that means instant excom, for attacking the papacy, doesn't it? Must get that assassin chap up to 4 star or better, for that eventuality ~;)

Smack the Poles, they shouldn't give you too much trouble and that will be the last problems you have with them. Are the Byzantines 'loyal' to you? They seem to have a fixation with getting Venice in my games instead of protecting/conquering eastward ~:confused: . Looking forward to your updates ~:cool: .

I have a feeling I may need to leave the Poles alone, until after the Crusade goals come to an end, in 1205. I doubt I can afford to direct troops in both roles at one time.

Besides, I'm more keen on going after the French holdings on my western border. I think the last Papal warning for attacking them is time expired so I may make a grab for Flanders, then wait another decade at a time until I've got all three provinces on this side of the English. Strange to see the two of them allied at all and I hope that being boxed into Brittany will provoke the French to fight their way out of that trap and set them at one another's throats.

Enough chatter, time to get back to the game!

EatYerGreens

09-24-2005, 12:50

Shortly after their aborted invasions, the Polish king died, without heirs, so they turned rebel. That happened just at the end of the previous game session but I forgot to mention it.

The Byzantines wasted no time in taking Poland, which was held by two 3/4-sized stacks but it looks like the Byz didn't even have to fight for it. The rebels merely retreating to the keep and the excess lost, with no path of retreat. They went on to attack Pomerania but, on at least two occasions, decided they could not win the battle and it is still in rebel hands.

I only needed to take a modest force into Silesia to win, autocalced the fort assault but destroyed no less than 7 facilities, most of which would have been very handy to have but I'll settle for the cash instead. I've bulked up the garrison and hope to make the most of the river crossing to keep the Byz at bay.

Anjou was a completely different story. The English and French attacked together and I should have simply abandoned the place but I was in an 'experimental' sort of mood and, with odds of 1600 to 4100, wanted to see if I could tough it out and hoped that this was the first stage of a conflict breaking out between the two them. No such luck. They both attacked in a coordinated manner and I'd fogotten about outnumbering penalties. My archers still had about 95% of their ammo by the time they ran and it was a mass rout, with over 800 casualties registered. I had to refuse ransom on nearly 500 taken prisoner, as it was more than I had in the treasury at the time. The crusader general got 'good runner' for his troubles.

I don't know if the retreated crusade marker instantly acquired more troops on its return but it appeared to be well up to strength in spite of the losses. Some minor topping up enabled it to attack again and there was no auto-retreat by the English, this time.

I used three units of peasants to chase off the 4 artillery crews which they'd left exposed by retreating their main force to a steep hill and also to harrass some of the archers they sent down the slope to fire at me. The rest of the archery duel went my way and I had time to withdraw mine to allow mounted crossbows to come on as reinforcements, though I don't recall them arriving in time for the victory. As their archers headed uphill, as if out of ammo, my infantry gave chase. Some hobilars had engaged one of my units but, by coincidence, my spears were in just the right part of my line to make a quick left turn and hit them from behind. I think the bulk of their force must have been archers as the meleé at the top of the hill was surprisingly brief. Some reinforcements of theirs appeared at the foot of the hill but they did an about turn before I could engage with them.

My 'Good Runner' general regained his second star and his success leaves me confused about whether the -3 morale penalty that vice gives affects just his unit, or the entire crusade stack.

A 'mock attack' on Toulouse did assist in this victory, by preventing additional forces being brought in. There were less than 100 prisoners but the English refused to ransom them and thus Prince John and a Noble met their end.

This crusade still isn't finished though. The pattern repeated, with a joint French/English attack, I retreat, attack again, win another battle and so on.

I send Herrmann II into Champagne and the French retreat to the fort. The pope issues a warning for attacking the French and I put 100 peasants in place to sit out the siege, fully expecting a sally from the 100 FS and 100 spears they have but it doesn't happen. My king's force moves back in, on the following turn but the fort falls (demolished) without the need for any assault.

In the meantime, the Pope goes and attacks Tuscany and I retreat to the fort. Perhaps foolishly, I send in the Genoa stack and he pulls out but it means instant excommunication for me, putting an end to my crusade plans, with only 34 years remaining before those goals expire. My emperor is 57 and the pope is in his 40s. I may need to assault Rome and demolish its border forts to make assassination feasible. Another two victims have brought my one and only executioner up to valour 3. I've been unable to train more because the tavern is in a province busy producing fresh troops.

It may be a coincidence but, after the Pope's attack, I checked my GA goals again and the one for 'Holy Roman Empire' (Naples, Rome, Tuscany, Milan) has gone completely. I don't remember it having a range of dates for completionor anything. Any ideas?

Anyway, here's the current state of play. For the record, the crusade was launched in 1164, in Franconia, making its first attack in 1166.

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0318.jpg

EDIT: Reason - fix problem with image size.

OlafTheBrave

09-24-2005, 17:17

The HRE goal is counted three times during the campaign. Personaly I would recomend taking Rome while excommed and leaving the Pope to stew in the Papal States as Rome Generally has excellent infrastructure while the Papal States does not. In one game The pope was allied with me I took Rome and a couple of turns latter asked for and got a cease fire. The next turn the pope allies back with me and all is back running nice and smoothly. With the Pope you can just never tell what is going to happen. The bigest problem I have found with being ex-commed is religous revolts and not being able to crusade. Crusades laaunched against you are generally made up of a bunch of rabble anyway so dont panick if one gets launched.

Also with the HRE the empire is already at the start very close to pushing the bloat factor. I have found that holding all the HRE goal and Drag Noch Osten goals with your homelands seems to be safe while anymore provinces seems to start up the negative Vices with your govenors.

EatYerGreens

09-25-2005, 11:12

The HRE goal is counted three times during the campaign.

Ah, okay. It took me by surprise when it first appeared and it disappeared similarly, without warning. Wondered what was going on. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on the goals page from now on. It flashes at you after you load a gamesave, or return from the gamesave menu but, if you play ten years in succession, it doesn't seem to notify you of changes like this.

Personaly I would recomend taking Rome while excommed and leaving the Pope to stew in the Papal States as Rome Generally has excellent infrastructure while the Papal States does not.

The pic above shows Rome has the more advanced castle. I find it odd that he gets all Guild level troop training centres but never bothers to build the port. Even more confusing is that he has no archers and just a selection of UM, spears and Milserges and only half of those with armour upgrade.

It's tempting to break in, build a port, let him take it back, get a ceasefire and then trade with him. ~:) On the other hand, it's equally tempting to just break in, smash everything up for cash to build equivalent goodies in the heartland, where I don't have to worry about the province being taken back. Furthermore, Rome borders onto the Sicilians, in Naples, which would nip my trade income in the bud if they got any fancy ideas about crossing the border.

The bigest problem I have found with being ex-commed is religous revolts and not being able to crusade. Crusades laaunched against you are generally made up of a bunch of rabble anyway so dont panick if one gets launched.

Yes, I'm rapidly running out of time for crusades to the middle east. I think the only realistic chance I have is to get there by ship and I've a lot of shiips to build yet. The overland route is just too slow, with too many losses to desertion and fighting. Only the English have attempted a crusade so far (Tripoli) and I last saw it in Greece, having had to fight its way through Byz territories, let alone any Muslim areas. I later stumbled across their returned prisoners, up in Scotland!

No sign of crusades coming my way either. The English are also excommed at the moment (how often do you see more than one faction x-ed at the same time?), the French probably don't have the money (negative cashflow after losing provinces) and a quick survey of Spain didn't find any chapter house, surprisingly. If one does come, I think I should be able to drum up enough troops to fend it off.

Also with the HRE the empire is already at the start very close to pushing the bloat factor. I have found that holding all the HRE goal and Drag Noch Osten goals with your homelands seems to be safe while anymore provinces seems to start up the negative Vices with your govenors.

Bloat factor? Ahh, too many provinces. I think it was actually 13 provinces on turn one, which is actually one more than the Byz start with, except not such great income, overall. With so many territories to look after, it is a tough job finding the excess troops to strike outward. I've spent much of the game so far simply dealing with incursions onto my homelands and, from observations of what happens to the HRE with the AI in charge, one gets the impression that the sole purpose of them in the game is space for the French, English, Danes and Italians to expand into!

By the way, what exactly is Drag Noch Osten? I've seen it spelt Drang Nach Osten, elsewhere but still don't know what it is.

EatYerGreens

09-25-2005, 12:11

Latest developments.

The Anjou crusade was pushed back from Anjou, for the umpteenth time, by an allied French/English attack, earning my unfortunate crusade general 'Eager to Retreat', to go with his 'Good Runner'. He was, nevertheless able to attack again the following year and the English-only garrison was smaller than in previous years, retreating to the keep without fighting. I was under the impression that auto-retrat type victories don't boost the general's command rating but, surprisingly, he earnt his third rank in doing this.

I was able to stop the French getting involved again by sending one of my younger princes into Flanders. One of the Isle de France stacks, which had been helping at Anjou, moved in to greet me and I called off the attack, having only brought enough to deal with the single UM unit on guard. I attacked again the next year, to ensure they stayed where they were and this time brought two Mounted Sergeants with me. They had a catapult and some ballistas, plus loads of archers (the reason I'd brought cav) so I edged my force forward step by step, until the artillery began firing. I lost 4 horsemen in one shot and initiated the charge. Keeping my main fighting troops well back, I charged 200 peasants at the other end of their line and, surprisingly, their archers decided to run for it, instead of skirmishing properly. Both generals were 2-star but my prince prevailed and scored such a high kill ratio that he was credited with 'skilled attacker' after this. There was nothing fancy about the maneuvers and tactics but two units of cav mop up an awful lot of archers (they brought 5 or 6 units) and I reckon it's purely the kills ratio which counts for this V&V.

I contemplated killing prisoners since I wanted to rid them of some of their huge pool of missile troops but they saved me the bother and would not pay ransom anyway. Two Nobles bit the dust.

This was a risky conquest, with points year so close but the idea was to stop them from striding into Friesland again. Confound it all! The English swoop on Friesland in the same year, by sea and all I can do is retreat to the fort. We're all square on homelands lost if I continue to hold Anjou, so this may not matter. I saved at 1174 so there is a chance to win it back on my next turn.

Interestingly, there was no attack on Anjou this year. This is the first time where siege casualties were inflicted instead. An encouraging sign that the crusade, still 900+ strong is close to properly completing its task. Sadly the Teutonic Knights went to waste, with only one man left and about half a unit of Teutonic Sergeants (the general). The only other 'freebie' troops were some mounted crossbows. I've used the temporary increase in cashflow to build things and train more troops, so I expect a maintainance hit when the crusade completes. Some units may have to be disbanded. If I hadn't been excommed, they could have been rapidly deposited into another crusade but I have neiether a marker trained yet, nor any worthwhile target to send it at.

On the other hand... the Danes went rebel when their king died heirless and there's lands just begging to be taken, up north. Ready-built dockyard in Denmark and the Danes' ships all gone - possibly what allowed the English to invade by sea as I think they'd gone to war previously.

However, I need to be quick about it, since the Poles have just re-emerged in Pomerania and are due to attack (their own former troops!) on the next turn. Silesia is a GA point goal for them but I think they'll be a year too late to attack me there in time and still get points. If not there, then Denmark would be a gift to them. Poland itself is out of the question, strongly held by Byz troops.

What prevented the English attacking Anjou this time was an additional headache for them. The Aragonese have captured Aquitaine! They have over 1000 troops in Toulouse but committing those would open the door for me to move in again. ~D

Things are getting interesting and I'm practically spoiled for choice in terms of directions to attack in. The only problem is I feel somewhat overstretched already. I may have to let go of Flanders in order to recover Friesland. Which is worth more - points or cash? Denmark is tempting but if I'd moved one turn too soon, I'd have left Saxony wide open to the newly restored Poles AND possibly another English sea attack. In the south, the Pope won't accept a ceasfire and this ties down troops which were supposed to be guarding Genoa from Sicilian/Byz interference. I only recently found out that the port was the key to unlocking Genoese sailors from here. I'm building a church first and, after that, it's just the bowyer's workshop. They will have to compete with ships for training slots though.

Speaking of which, my first ship has rolled out and didn't even have to move to initiate trade with the Byz in Corsica. One more to trade with Aragon. They are neutral to me but I've been knocking on the door for alliance and/or marriages for a few years, even before they made their latest move.

In the meantime, I reckon I should take Olaf's warning about bloat and try not to go overboard on conquests, sit back, defend what I've got, build infrastructure, ships and train a crusade marker for when the excom ends. My emperor is 57 so I may yet get a window of a decade or so in which to hit the Holy Land.

Oh, I did manage to build the Royal Court in the end, so I'm getting some RK's to make into future governors and/or slice up anyone who dares attack HRE lands. :charge: Unfortunately, Swabia was the only place I could construct it, without having to spend an extra 1000 on a Royal Palace as a prerequisite for it. This means that RK's, Swabian Swords and plain old FMAA (with armourer) are all competing for training places until I can afford a secondary swordsmith/armourer as well.

Geezer57

09-25-2005, 15:49

By the way, what exactly is Drag Noch Osten? I've seen it spelt Drang Nach Osten, elsewhere but still don't know what it is.
There are historical references for the phrase that predate WWII, but most commonly it refers to Operation Barbarossa - Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union. The phrase roughly translates as "Strike to the East" (also striving or penetration to the East). See the Wikipedia links here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

I stumbled upon it as a board wargamer in the 1970's - there was a monster game, with thousands of cardboard counters and a map covering a large dining room table, complete with a huge rulebook, that went by that name.

OlafTheBrave

09-25-2005, 17:37

In the game it is the push to the east by the Teutonic Crusaders into Silesia, Pommerania, Prussia and Livonia. Its another reason I sent the crusades after these provinces early before Poland could expand into them. Initially the y are held by some peaseant rebels so a few decent units added to a crusade will conquer them no problem. Livonia I would wait on as it is one of the most rebelious provinces in the game and will require a decent sized garison to hold. Bribing it can sometimes be a worthwile option deppending on its infrastructure and the troops there. If I recall correctly Drang Nach Osten is like the HRE goal in that it scores several times durring the campaign but not in sequential point counts. Remember there is nothing wrong with deciding to pull out of territories in favor of other territories, atleast in my mind. However I am one that likes to maintain a managable moderate sized empire and not some 1/4 or 1/2 the map sprawl. Also EYG I am sure you will play the HRE again it just always comes back nagging at you that you could have done better in those oh so hard yet crucial formative years.

yesdachi

09-25-2005, 19:08

Roark

09-26-2005, 02:28

$0.02:

I was inspired by this thread to create my own Early/Hard/HRE/GA, and it has been a total blast. EYG is spot on - discipline is key. There are so many potential "chinks" in the armour.

I've been at war with Hungary, France, Italy & the Papacy since 1093, and it is TOUGH. Hungary is really giving me curry, and France decided to ALLY with the Emglish from the beginning. Makes things really precarious when ya have enemies on all sides.

Still, I've overcome most of my problems except one...

CRAP HEIR SYNDROME!!!

It is really annoying the hell out of me, and all of my boys have been busily bloodying themselves since age 16... Still, they suck big time.

I also can't figure out how the hell I am going to get a big fat crusade to Palestine before the points get counted... Tried once already, with about 2600 stout Germans, but the desertion rate was phenomenal, despite my crusade leader's astronomical piety. -1 Influence for Ludwig, sadly...

One more afterthought:

Swabians... *drool*

These guys are probably the only thing keeping me alive and afloat. Kingslayers to a man. Charging them into the rear of engaged Royal units is more fun than shooting fish in a barrel.

lugh

09-26-2005, 11:46

EYG – I haven’t been able to play all week and your updates have been just enough to keep me from getting the shakes from withdrawal ~;) , thanks ~D . I would concern myself less with bloat than with expanding to natural bottlenecks so you can really focus on infrastructure. I know it’s a ways away but I can’t wait for you to start rolling out the gothic knights ~:cool: ! Wont happen until you can reach some relative peace and establish the trade network.
That's the problem with the HRE. If you pursue the GA goals ie, pushing up the Baltic as far as Livonia(?) and taking the Italian peninsula, it's difficult to shorten the borders unless you go on a mad warmongering binge all the way to Turkey. If I remember, 4 provinces is the shortest your western border can be until you get down towards Iberia, 5 on the Eastern but that involves going to war with Russia and Hungary and in Italy you'll always have the Pope waiting to pounce.

CountMRVHS

09-26-2005, 12:15

Me too, me too!

Like many others, I've been inspired by this thread to try (again) the HRE. I've tried a couple times in the past on Hard and never had any luck with them, but I figured it deserved another shot.

So I fired up an Early/Expert/GA HRE game.

First of all, I t u r t l e ; always have. My test this game will be to see if it's possible to do that successfully with the HRE (as I said, I've failed at least twice before). Generally, I also follow pretty close to the goals and don't conquer any other land unless I feel I need to.

OK, so the first turn saw my princess and emissary trying to round up some alliances: Emissary goes to France, princess to Poland. The Polish refuse my offer, but the French accept.

Over the next several turns I also net alliances with the English, the Aragonese, the Danes, the People of Novgorod, the Polish (they sent a princess to marry my heir), the Byzantines, and the Hungarians. Oh, and the Spanish. The Pope and the Sicilians, despite my repeated efforts, refuse. The Italians send an emissary but I refuse them, knowing the HRE goal is coming up.

The great thing about allying with the French and English is that you get to pick sides in their war. Well, this time the Aragonese made the first move and took Toulouse while it was still disconnected from the French realm. I kept my alliance with the French but once the war ended the next turn was able to re-ally with the Aragonese.

My first order of business was to build those Watchtowers and then decide on where my troop production was going to be. Following some of the great ideas on this thread ~:cheers: I dedicated Burgundy to Spears, Swabia to UMs, and Switzerland to Archers. I stocked up on my western border with decent forces (even threw in a few peasants from Provence) and let the easter border be: the Poles and Hungarians seemed to have other struggles of their own with Rebels, and I wanted to keep my income up around 1000/turn.

I also went straight for the Keep in Swabia so I could have the Swabian Swordsmen quick.

In the past, I've always went straight for the Chapter House in Austria so I could go after the Crusade goals. That never worked. This time, I decided To Hell with the Crusade goals. If it turned out I was in a great position in time, I'd go after them, but that hasn't happened yet. My bigger focus needed to be the homeland, staving off hungry neighbors, and getting ready to get the HRE goal.

Interestingly, the Pope granted me 2 gifts of 1000 fl. when we weren't allied. That was more than welcome, and I was soon over the 10,000 fl. mark. Nice to have a nest egg ~:cool: .

Meanwhile, the French had decided to attack the English; but without Toulouse the war went slower than usual for them. In fact, the English took Flanders and for a moment I thought the French were done for. I remained allied with them until the English offered a princess, and I went for it. As of now, the French hold Anjou, Champagne, Ile de France, Normandy and Brittany; the English hold Flanders and the Aragonese Toulouse and I think Aquitaine. I've decided that if the French gain another province I'll come out of my neutrality and attack them, even though it's not a goal. But they've been pestering me for an alliance for years now, so hopefully they'll stagnate.

By the time the HRE goal came up, I was able to train Swabians (with armor), FMAA, and Mounted Xbows. So far that's going well; grabbed Milan.

Gotta run to work; more later perhaps

CountMRVHS

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 12:39

I was just popping in to post another quick progress report but I just wanted to say that I'm knocked out by how my efforts have inpired others to have a go (or another go!) at HRE and that your having a blast too. ~:cool:

Lots of new posts on this thread, so I'll address those first. As soon as I've processed the latest screenies, I'll do another update.

In the meantime, it's interesting just how varied the game can be, between different players. I have the Byz on my Eastern front and the Huns got wiped out without ever troubling me, whilst Roark has been at war with Hungary. I have also faced an Anglo-French alliance but the Aragonese haven't had the same success as in Count's game.

It would be nice to also have Count's nest egg but maybe I have had it, only I spent it. ~D

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 13:08

Thanks to Geezer57 for those links. I'll check those out later.

Only a couple of turns after I posted that, it turned up in the game (HRE goal magically reappeared too) but it's only listing Prussia and Livonia as targets. I wonder if it varies from game to game?

EDIT: Correction, Silesia is on the list too but I already have it!

Anyway, it's an odd selection because, if you absolutely must have a contiguous empire, the player will need to take Lithuania as well. That's easier said than done since, IIRC, Lithuania cuts well inland and has a lot of borders from which it can be attacked.

Crusade would seem the logical way to take it, since you can move through other factions' holdings to reach it without necessarily having to conquer or hold onto all the provinces en route to there. With a big enough force, it can then be held as an outpost province for as long as it takes to get the points. Interestingly, in my game, the first English crusade was to Livonia, as if it was making conscious efforts to prevent the player achieving certain goals. At the time, I had no idea of the connection but it makes sense now. I had a bishop in place and managed to witness them failing to take their target. ~;)

If I recall correctly Drang Nach Osten is like the HRE goal in that it scores several times during the campaign but not in sequential point counts. Remember there is nothing wrong with deciding to pull out of territories in favor of other territories, atleast in my mind.

Yep, I was paying attention this time and notw how the HRE and DNO point count dates differ from the rest, with the latter not even starting until 1205 or 1206. At least they give you some advance warning to enable preparations.

Also EYG I am sure you will play the HRE again it just always comes back nagging at you that you could have done better in those oh so hard yet crucial formative years.

Yes, I'm only now starting to produce extra RK units. After all those years struggling with too few generals with any stars - and more than a few defeats as a consequence - I now find that the RKs solve the problem. The first two to roll out were a 2* and a 1*. Not utterly knockout ranks, admittedly but, psychologically, it would have helped calm things down in the nail-biting stage and only a little work would have had them gaining rank for a solid valour boost all round.

In some ways, all the losing of territory and winning it back again is what I feel the game should be all about - ebb and flow of the various empires until one prevails after many years of struggle. Not just a complete steamrollering of the world by armies that were always bigger, or better quality than their opponents.

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 14:01

EYG – I haven’t been able to play all week and your updates have been just enough to keep me from getting the shakes from withdrawal ~;) , thanks ~D .

No problem. I would never have guessed that 'secondhand campaigning' would be enough to satisfy those inevitable cravings but I ought to know better, since contemplating all the various possibilities absorbs enormous amounts of my own time as it is. That's where a lot of the enjoyment comes from, I think. I have to admit to being something of a plodder and, what with all the frequent strategic battles to look after, I'm managing only about 3 turns per game session - give or take breaks to watch something on TV and give my mind a rest! :dizzy2:

I would concern myself less with bloat than with expanding to natural bottlenecks so you can really focus on infrastructure.

Yes, the Pyrenees are a logical place to stop, in the west but it will be a few years yet before I reach that far. The English retook Aquitaine from the Aragonese and have close to three stacks with which to look after that and Toulouse. Attempting to take the pair of them would only expose me to attacks from both north (France) and south (Spain/Aragon). Hanging back in Provence means I can rely on a river defence against the English and then concentrate on the borders with the French. (I'll save the details for the next progress report).

I know it’s a ways away but I can’t wait for you to start rolling out the gothic knights ~:cool: ! Wont happen until you can reach some relative peace and establish the trade network.

I see the bonussed versions of these are from Saxony and the GFKs in Brandenburg but these are both relatively undeveloped at the moment - just Fort, Motte & Bailey, so the development path is both long and twofold. I'm wondering if I should save that for the distant future and concentrate on Swabia, where I'm already up to castle level? Given that I shouldn't require huge amounts of these knights and that even the costs of a citadel are well beyond the current treasury level, it would make sense to get one place at least building them, which is already halfway there, rather than fuss about a bonus province where the castle level is already 20 years behind. Not to mention that Saxony hasn't even started a town watch yet, let alone basic troop facilities.

The side benefit is that advanced armourer, master horse breeder etc is required for knights, so my Swabians and Mounted Sergeants (the latter coming, unarmoured, from Bavaria at present) will benefit during the period while development is in progress.

What generally happens for me is that I never have the funds available to simply go for it and meet all the build requirements for advanced units one right after another. I build things as and when they can be afforded, which means frequent gaps where no building occurs and usually with intermediate goals in mind. For instance, once Saxony gets its keep, I will detour the development path for a few years, to give it a port and shipbuilder, so that the long years of castle/citadel construction can be spent constructively on getting ships into the Baltic, earning the cash for the expensive builds and guarding my coast from further English seaborne invasions at the same time. Any ability to make high-tech units is arrived at by serendipity as much as anything else. I see a building on the list which can give me a useful new unit type, so I build it. If it gets me one step closer to the bonus unit, then all the better.

Obviously, I do look at the tech tree from time to time and I will keep the long-term construction goals in mind but I won't sacrifice other things I decide I need HERE, NOW, purely so as to afford the high-tech path somewhere else, where it might be too far away to make a difference at the trouble spot - eg the need to be able to train extra troops at short notice, in a province which an enemy troop movement has suddenly placed under threat, or quickly recoup losses after a defence was successful but with significant casualties.

Actually, that the old, over-cautious policy and perhaps it was frittering away money on lots of small builds (archer/spearmaker nearly everywhere). Better use of the 'hub defence' system, where you either abandon completely or retreat to the fort then gather troops and lift the siege with full strength would allow development to be more concentrated. Fewer training centres overall but better quality all round.
:thinking2:

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 14:36

That's the problem with the HRE. If you pursue the GA goals ie, pushing up the Baltic as far as Livonia(?) and taking the Italian peninsula, it's difficult to shorten the borders unless you go on a mad warmongering binge all the way to Turkey. If I remember, 4 provinces is the shortest your western border can be until you get down towards Iberia, 5 on the Eastern but that involves going to war with Russia and Hungary and in Italy you'll always have the Pope waiting to pounce.

Indeed so. The Pope has pounced only the once so far and won't accept a ceasefire. I picked up from some other thread that factions can be on their last province and still not accept ceasfire, with the speculation being that as long as any of their starting provinces are in enemy hands (not necessarily all in yours) it's kind of 'hard coded' that they will refuse all offers of ceasefire. Sounds silly at first but hope springs eternal for the AI and they behave as if they expect to be able to regain lost lands at all times, however hopeless the odds are, but this can't be done unless hostilities are kept ongoing.

Four provinces on the western front sounds right but don't forget that pushing into Flanders also brings Wessex into play - unless you're using a mod which removes the land bridge. (I was contemplating trying all factions in the default form of the game first but suspect that impatience to get rid of the land bridges will have me making the switch sooner rather than later).

On my eastern border, the Poles re-emerged and took Pomerania, the Byz have Poland (nice long border), Hungary, Serbia and Venice, so that's 4 provinces facing me but make it 5 if you count Denmark. It's now rebel so it doesn't really count as a potential source of attack though. My actual border is Saxony, Brandenburg, Silesia, Bohemia, Austria, so that's 5 needing to be defended.

The Byz also have Venice, which could be counted as eastern border but I've kept it separate because it can strike at three of my provinces - Tyrolia, Milan and Tuscany - which I prefer to regard as 'southern front'. However, their presence has served to keep the larger Papal stack pinned in Papal States. His Rome stack is beginning to grow, albeit slowly. I can outnumber him when I need to but a few more years and it will require a proper battle to push him out if he visits again. So he's already pinning down a garrison of my own, which was meant to be shuttling about between Milan/Tyrolia to keep the Byz at bay. I need to keep it in Tuscany if I have any hopes of getting a keep/second port/shipbuilder in place down there without interruptions and repeated expenditures in the build process.

It's the same story along all the borders. I need more keeps in place for the kind of training facilities I need, since the existing ones are fully occupied. Whilst I can actually afford these at the moment, the question is whether it is safe to commit to the build and will I remain unattacked for long enough to get them finished? The timing of the attacks on Saxony - two attempts at fort construction interrupted - were such that I wondered if the AI can somehow detect that you've started a fresh build.

To refer back to the original thread title, the HRE is indeed a headache. With many other factions, you always have provinces which are safely tucked away in places others can't get to, so you can build those up and get tougher troops with which to make the border zones safe from attacks and be sure of completing similar improvements there without the interruptions.

I think only the Poles and Hungarians have comparable 'sandwiched' starting positions where this problem would also occur but they have fewer provinces to be looked after until they've expanded somewhat. This makes the choices of what to develop and where simpler, initially. I'll have to try them sometime to see what their economic position is like.

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 15:02

Still, I've overcome most of my problems except one...

CRAP HEIR SYNDROME!!!

It is really annoying the hell out of me, and all of my boys have been busily bloodying themselves since age 16... Still, they suck big time.

Mine were a mixed bag. There's a 1* younger brother, a pair of 2*, a pair of 3* and the latest 16-year old came out at 4*. The emperor came to the throne at 3* but was only 17 then, which has given him plenty of time to get involved in occasional battles and siege-lifts, so he earned his way up to 4* and that might explain the progressive improvement in heirs. He has 6 sons and his "virility is legendary" as the caption puts it but I can't get a single one of them married off now, due to who I'm at war with and who they're allied to. I suppose the HRE do have a get-out in that they can elect their best general if heirlessness rears its head.

Do the HRE ever do that thing whereby the Emperor marries the daughter of a noble if he is unable to get a princess?

I also can't figure out how the hell I am going to get a big fat crusade to Palestine before the points get counted... Tried once already, with about 2600 stout Germans, but the desertion rate was phenomenal, despite my crusade leader's astronomical piety. -1 Influence for Ludwig, sadly...

Having seen an overland English crusade meet resistance from the Byz, who have been pushed westwards by the Turks' relentless expansion, failing far short of its target as a result, I see my only hope of meeting this resting on ability to build enough ships in the 30 years or so I have remaining and not having the Sicilians do their usual naval war antics.

It would be fun to use maybe just three ships and 'island hop' my way to the destination but I'm not sure wheter the game will permit such indirect routing. Chapter house is in Franconia and it might refuse to let me track south (port in Genoa) as this is 'further away', in terms of land moves, from Palestine. It can't see ship routes as being shorter and legitimate until they exist, I suppose.

Stopping in Malta (with Sicilian permission, if I can get it) and seeing if I can absorb some Templars whilst the ships reposition, would be rather fun. At last check, the Eggy's had pushed west as far as Tunisia so, maybe, break in through the back door, into a lightly guarded Cyrenacia and hope the path to Palestine is made easy because their strength is too far north, keeping the Turks back.

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able. I'm sure dgfred posted something about having to let yourself be sieged into the castle before the points registered. In any case, the European conflict has kept me preoccupied for so long that funds and facilites are limiting. I might have to launch the crusade then leave it sat in Franconia for a few years, just packing in unit after unit from all neighbouring provinces to get the numbers up (no maint costs woot, woot) before sending it on its merry way.

The big headache is, of course, the current excom status. Emperor is 58 and the Pope slightly younger, so the 30-year window may yet be enough to make it happen.

I was slightly underwhelmed by the performance of my first unit of Swabians, only 58 kills with 40+ losses but maybe I'd given them a tough task. Couldn't see what they were fighting as it was in woods. Units raised since then have never been in the right place to participate in any proper battles yet but their deterrent value seems to be good.

bretwalda

09-26-2005, 17:04

Sorry for the diversion: in my HRE game I don't seem to be getting Swabian Swordsmen: what are the building requirements - I can't find them anywhere...? I know that they are an early only unit.

OlafTheBrave

09-26-2005, 17:19

Ships are the best way to successfully launch crusades. If you cant make it all the way to Pallestine atleast go for somewher along the African coast and Iwould recomend a tag along army if at all possible. The points for crusades do not register until you are under siege in that province. That is another reason for having the tag along army is to secure the province next to the crusade goal so you can do the manipulation neccessary to gain the points.

With regard to keeps in border provinces, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate that whole reaction force deffense stratagey, if nothing else atleast for the provine you are building up. I would still recomend slapping the Pope out of Rome. If you dont leave him in the Papal States crush him and withdraw from the papal states but keep an adaquate garrison in Rome to deal with his re-emergence. Doing this will give you some time to develop that garrison and he will then be holed up in the Papal States with some expensive troops and litte or no infastructre. Supposedly you can seige him in the Papal States and withdraw on the last year and force a cease fire but I have never been so fortunate as he seems to get his fragile little but killed before the seige.

I havent played Hungry but Poland is fun. Its sort of like a mini-HRE, while you are bordered to the east by rebels once stirred up they tend to gang up on you. Poland also has some interesting GA goal as far as provinces to take especially if things fall just right in the campaign and for some reason you seem like even more of a crusade super highway than the HRE.

lugh

09-26-2005, 18:33

Indeed so. The Pope has pounced only the once so far and won't accept a ceasefire. I picked up from some other thread that factions can be on their last province and still not accept ceasfire, with the speculation being that as long as any of their starting provinces are in enemy hands (not necessarily all in yours) it's kind of 'hard coded' that they will refuse all offers of ceasefire. Sounds silly at first but hope springs eternal for the AI and they behave as if they expect to be able to regain lost lands at all times, however hopeless the odds are, but this can't be done unless hostilities are kept ongoing.

Assasinate him. Then his succesor. After that the new pope should be amenable to a ceasefire! It was working for me before my computer went caput.

It would be fun to use maybe just three ships and 'island hop' my way to the destination but I'm not sure wheter the game will permit such indirect routing. Chapter house is in Franconia and it might refuse to let me track south (port in Genoa) as this is 'further away', in terms of land moves, from Palestine. It can't see ship routes as being shorter and legitimate until they exist, I suppose.

This is one of my biggest peeves. The routes the Crusaders actually took were nuts, they backtracked, island-hopped etc etc. The pathfinding for the AI is brutal and it's stupid that the player is locked into it aswell.

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able.
How do you mean by this?

@bretwalda I can't remember if they're in vanilla VI, but it's a castle level, with Master swordsmith IIRC

mfberg

09-26-2005, 19:42

Swordsmith Workshop + Swabia are required to build.
(Fort, Town Watch, Spear/Archer, Keep, Swordsmith, Castle, Swordsmith Workshop ~38 years from nothing, 32 years from HRE start, available only in early)

mfberg

yesdachi

09-26-2005, 20:07

I see the bonussed versions of these are from Saxony and the GFKs in Brandenburg but these are both relatively undeveloped at the moment...
For me too, it has been difficult to develop much of anything in my game but hopefully I will be able to get a few turns in tonight. I just know my armies are waiting to face off with the Turks ~:cool: !

dgfred

09-26-2005, 20:09

@EYG- it was me who posted about the siege for crusade point deal ~;) .

It is not so hard to do in the time period, but I was playing on 'normal'
difficulty :embarassed: . In that game I sent consecutive crusades to
Antioch, Tripoli and then Palestine. The first is by far the hardest due to the
fact that you have to have enough troops to withdraw some to the castle,
and have enough to recapture the province. The others will be easier since
you will have strong forces nearby already. Another thing that might be
important is that all my crusades went by sea, I had ships in almost every
sea lane. I usually use over-land crusades only to weaken my neighbors (aka
Hungary or Italy) to knock down a point rival nation (aka Byzantines). I find
the AI totally unprepared in most cases to sea invasions, and use them to
throw the AI off balance ~D . I try to avoid X-comm at all cost, using the
attack two faction trick to get what I want. In games as the HRE when I did
get X-comm my loyalty fell drastically and I also had several rebellions if I did
not pay close attention- a true Holy Roman Headache!

Deus Ex

09-26-2005, 21:52

Is the "points for crusades do not register until you are under siege in that province" BUG only for HRE?

In my current game (Sicily/Hard/Early) I have successfully launched three of my four GA crusades, and I received points for each when I took over the province - no need to garrison or anything.

Just wondering...

MTW-VI 2.01 un-modded

DE

OlafTheBrave

09-26-2005, 22:30

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 22:37

Assasinate him. Then his succesor. After that the new pope should be amenable to a ceasefire! It was working for me before my computer went caput.

I have one assassin up to v3 but old popey has BF's in Rome, making this something of a one-shot deal and he's considered more valuable as the emperor's bodyguard just now. I have a second assassin up to v1 but there's not a hope of him getting through BF's at all. The tricky part is that the tavern went into Switzerland - because it could - but steady troop losses have kept it busy building replacements, leaving few opportunities for spamming killers. I have one castle and three keeps but will need another keep if I want a dedicated agent-producer.

The castle squeezed out an inquisitor a while ago and news of the Cathars got me producing a second but Swabia is already competing between Swabian swords, FMAA and now RK's on top. Now I learn that Swabian's are early-only, I consider that two training slots wasted. Inquie #1 declared his first three targets innocent, still has no stars and burns 1500 Genoans for me in the same turn that he moved there. Gah!

Crusade Routes:

This is one of my biggest peeves. The routes the Crusaders actually took were nuts, they backtracked, island-hopped etc etc. The pathfinding for the AI is brutal and it's stupid that the player is locked into it aswell.

In some parts of the readable files, the Province list is alphabetic but I thought I saw one where the list is kind of geographic - rows west to east then progressively southward, from the top edge. Imagine it set out on a spreadsheet. Wherever the origin and destination are, the allowable path is a mix of diagonals and straights but, having reduced the number of rows or columns between one and the other by making a move, you can't increase it again in a subsequent move.

So, if your target is in the east, at no time can you make a move which the game regards as being in a 'column' which is to the west, even if it doesn't appear to be obviously so, geographically speaking. If the target is generally south of your start point, at no time will it allow you to move north.

The exception is where ships reduce the number of moves, of course. Still, I wonder if the game can cope with a required move to the north, eg. from Franconia to Saxony to reach a port there and a ship chain through a dozen or so sea zones to the holy land? (Thinking about that, it's probably more sea zones than provinces in the overland route!!!)

I'm convinced someone, somewhere has pulled off the Palestine crusade in the time available so it's definitely do-able.

How do you mean by this?

I mean the crusade goals (all of them) must be achieved by 1205 in order to score any points for them.

Perhaps I have an exaggerated sense of there not being enough time to get it done because I'm up to the late 1170's and only have two ships in the med, so far. Still plenty of time, of course but the margin is tighter than I'd like. Constant conflict on the European fronts has used up men and money, so my economy isn't as developed as it might be (farm improvements) and the sensation of having 2-3000 troops 'to spare' for crusading just isn't there.

EatYerGreens

09-26-2005, 22:44

Are you certain you recieved the points Deus Ex? The partchemnt showing the points scored only occurs once you are sieged. This is true of all the crusade factions not just the HRE. This is deffinitly the case in MTW 1.1 and Ido not think it was fixed in VI or its patches because if I am not mistaken this bug has only recently been discovered.

Seems the proverbial mileage is varying.

Perhaps we should compare notes on versions.

There's no good reason why an edition manufactured in EU should be materially different (in software behaviour) from the the made in USA editions, or anywhere else, other than the US version perhaps releasing several weeks ahead of any other country, giving time for a bug to be discovered and fixed before manufacturing kicked off elsewhere. Nevertheless, it may be useful to state where your copy was made, just in case.

Mine is MTW:VI v2.01 plus "age 56 king-death" fix, no other mods, made in EU.

I will report on my experience of the points issue as and when I'm able to complete the GA goal.

ajaxfetish

09-26-2005, 22:46

Wow, this thread is getting huge!! EYG, you are the newest org celebrity. It's a blast reading your latest HRE exploits especially with every juicy detail included. In spite of some added stability it sounds like things haven't gotten any less interesting the last few years. A few thoughts:

Definitely take the opportunity to improve some of your farms (especially in safe interior provinces with decent base farming values) as this is your main source of income as the HRE and the investment will really start to pay off. You have enough provinces that the farming income can really start to add up once you get the farms up a ways.

If you can spare the troops I'd agree that shutting the Pope down (but not finishing him off) could help you feel much more secure on your southern border and possibly provide you with some very nice infrastructure in Rome.

Personally I think Flanders is more valuable than the homeland points from Friesland, especially since money has been one of your biggest setbacks and Flanders is one of the richest provinces in the entire game.

I have no good advice for crusades. When I'm fighting to survive I tend to relegate those to a lower priority. For me, crusading only happens when I'm in a secure position with troops and money to spare. So good luck in the levant.

Gothic knights aren't available till late (about 1350 or so IIRC), so you have plenty of time to tech up to them.

Keep an eye on the Byzantines. I don't trust them. :inquisitive:

So here's wishing you the best of fortune and hoping for further updates!

Roark

09-27-2005, 01:18

EYG is easily the most prolific writer in the MTW Org.

...and I have to say, this German campaign is the most complex and fun that I have ever experienced, and I'm a little ashamed that I dissed the HRE so much in the past.

I have been (involuntarily) at war with 3-4 factions since day one, with ceasefires being signed and cancelled like a game of musical chairs.

My relationship with the Papacy has been fraught with intrigue, and Hungary and France have been worthy adversaries (although France benefited enormously from an alliance with England).

Here's my current situation, which is ultra-precarious:

1. A green emperor of 3 influence who has just stepped into some big boots. The generals don't think much of him, and the HRE is one step away from civil war.
2. All of mainland France is under siege, with the English vacillating as to whether they should stick their necks out to save their allies. As soon as the French provinces fall, I will gain extra Influence, BUT....
3. I have a ragged crusader army of 500 in Lesser Armenia, staring down an army of 1200 Egyptian n00bs in the target province of Antioch. The desertion rate means that I cannot afford to wait. I have to try and take it next turn.

So, if I lose the Crusade, my well-established empire will be plunged into civil war. This will basically be an invitation for the Hungarians to break the frontier that I have established across Austria and Croatia.

EatYerGreens

09-27-2005, 02:14

Again, I've spent so much time posting today that the campaign didn't get a look in, but here's the stuff from the most recent session. Not as much detail as usual as it's late and I'm worn out!

Prince Conrad backtracked from Flanders, raised the siege in Friesland and trounced the English. An extra unit of theirs was seen to move in by sea but it was too little, too late. This battle was in 1175 itself, so I had the satisfaction of seeing this, for the first time...

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0359.jpg

Okay, you've probably all seen it before but did it say "13 points" on the bottom? (The thread goes wonky if I post images full size, so I shrink them to 75% at photobucket and the loss of quality makes the writing hard to make out on that one. I could use clickable links instead and re-upload the images to restore full quality).

A mere 100 spears and 100 peasants, left behind in Flanders, were not troubled by any attack, in spite of the trapped garrison easily having more men. After siege losses were counted, the forces were about equal but the return of Conrad's men, the following year, was enough to see the castle fall, with considerable pillage loot. Unfortunately, the port was amongst the items destroyed and, even with an Acumen 4 governor, income is only 400 and something, not the 1000+ the French were previously getting. I suspect the farms may have degraded, currently back at 20%.

In the meantime - and I can't be certain if memory serves - it may also be the first time I've seen this...

https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0350.jpg

Good to see it finally complete its task, after all that drama and the foolishness of facing up to an army nearly 4 times its size, routing before doing even slight damage and losing it's most powerful troops. So, yet more pillage to swell the coffers and luckily the 80% farms are captured undamaged.

The maintainance hit wasn't as bad as expected, cashflow stil in the 750 range. The fun was not to last, however. The French king saw his chance and burst forth from Brittany. I had dangled the bait of a small garrison for at least one year but the timing was such that the former crusaders were back in the province that year. Unfornunately, there is no 'both' choice when it comes to abandon province or retreat to stronghold. I certainly didn't want a full 420 troops in the keep but, again, no facility to pick how many men or one unit type over another. The numbers and troop mix were in their favour so I simply had to pull out. Cashflow now down to ~250, as I've been busy raising troops to defend the east in the meantime.

In various ways, I am content to let the French keep Anjou.
1) Large bulges on a front are generally a bad thing and beg to be attacked.
2) It's an English homeland and they may well fight to get it back, splitting the alliance between them which was so troublesome to me.
3) It allows the French to connect up with Isle de France, redistribute troops and maybe come after me again but I can then get the chance to destroy them in detail, instead of having to finish off a two-stack army in Brittany.
4) A risky option but I could let them expand and drive the English off the mainland whilst I conserve my men for crusading. When that's all done, my home troops should be advanced enough to push them into a corner once again.
5) Peace with France, if achieved, gives me another trade parter, close to home.
6) Disconnection from any border with England (eg temporary loss of Flanders) ends that war and I get another trade opportunity.
7) I now have an 'excess' stack. This can go into the next crusade or simply move to guard Milan, freeing up the Tuscany stack to attack the Pope right away. I don't know how it will pan out if he dies in battle but a siege in Rome is still ongoing when the new Pope gets elected - instant re-excom?

After much thought, I decided not to risk spending the recent booty on an extra keep just yet, using it instead on 40% farms in Provence - longggg overdue - with another farm upgrade to follow on my next turn after the latest save. Money first, upgrades later.

Another 1000 is going on another crusade marker, so as to be ready for imminent Papal doom, or the death of my Emperor, whichever comes first. He has skilled attacker, for 5 stars on attack, so maybe I should arrange a face-off? :devilish:

Saxony is a full stack and I've pumped troops into Brandenburg and Silesia so they're near-full as well and a half stack for a Bohemia-Austria 'shuttle'. All on account the Byz and re-emerged Poles. I was pleased to get an alliance with the Poles sorted out just as they'd completed their siege of the rebels. Judging by their remaining troop numbers and income, they'll be broke if they don't make another move soon, so I'm taking no chances and hope they head east.

Kings have been dying of illnesses at an alarming rate. I swear I saw two Byzantine emperors pass on in consecutive years. French and Spanish kings have gone, but no word on any of the Muslim leaders for more than a generation. Maybe border contact is required for the news to travel? (My agents aren't in the right places at the moment.

Last of all, a little aspirin for the HRE's headache. The Sicilian king dies off without heirs and his annoying little fleet is vapourised. With the Byz suitably allied, the sea route to the east should be trouble-free. A second ship is out, I'm trading with Aragon and a third is about to start construction. Things are looking up!

Completion of the crusade and other recent conquests has pushed Herrmann II's influence up from an opening 4 to a highly respectable 8. His youngest son has just come of age and starts with 4 stars. His dad had to earn his 4th and seems to have passed on his hard-won knowledge. ~;)

A second assassin has been unleashed, gaining a star in his first move, picking off a nosey English Emissary in Burgundy. I lost my second Bishop in Normandy and I think he was making an approach for a ceasefire at the time, so I feel the retaliation was entirely justified.

I have two Inquisitors now. The first of these did a short tour of other faction lands, released three targets in a row as innocent, gaining no stars. He spent a few years trying to boost zeal in Castile, to little effect. There is intense military activity in Spain and the Almohads must have smashed up their Chapter House some time ago - no whisper of Crusades by the Spaniards, to date. I recalled him and got a second trained when the Cathars raised their ugly heads. Toulouse, Provence, Genoa, Milan, Franconia and Bavaria are all affected. #2 takes care of the northern areas while #1 is reported 'out of control' in the same turn as when I moved him into Genoa and 1500 are burned after I leave him in place, the year after. Whoops!

There's no shortage of things to keep the HRE player occupied, then. I don't think any other faction gets as many potential sources of points as they do, so it's hard to imagine just how one can fall behind. (For the record, I now have a four point lead, over the Byz in second place but the Turks fast on their heels).

Then again, there are simply too many tasks to achieve everything simultaneously, short of treating it like a conquest game and blitzing everywhere in the first couple of decades, if that's even feasible. Personally, I've achieved parts of certain goals before I knew they were goals - disposing of the Italians, for instance, was something I did as advice suggested it was a prudent move. I even acted slightly late and their accumulated forces made it expensive in terms of money and casualties. Nevertheless, it got me 3 points from the HRE goal but that didn't appear until the provinces involved were already secure.

Latest state of play. (map) (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0383.jpg)

EatYerGreens

09-27-2005, 02:31

Well past bedtime but I couldn't resist holding back this one any longer.

It's funny how small little events, very early on can swing things for one player but won't happen in quite the same way in someone else's game.

Back in 1094, I lost Lorraine after a battle with the French and there was small revolt. 60 archers, 100 Feudal Sergeants, before their time and 40 Teutonic Segeants, a unit I'd not encountered before. As I said before, any cav was good Cav. The retake was straightforward but they came back with greater numbers. Lorraine was lost again and French-held for a number of years. The horsemen didn't go into action until 30 years later, against the Italians in Provence and defending a recaptured Lorraine. Then another gap of 20 years before they helped recover Saxony from the English, on three occasions and another 20 years before relieving Friesland and a defence of Flanders.

They kept cropping up on my battle screenshots, so I compiled a war record for them, which speaks for itself. I think they're worth more than their weight in gold - they've certainly earned me plenty. Outside of crusades, it appears they're not even buildable...

Totals to date
Battles: 8
K: 0+99+46+5+57+0+0+33 =240
C: 2+111+175+2+58+33+0+84 =465
L: 0+18+3+3+7+0+0+0 =31, 9 remaining
V: 0+2+1+0+1+0+0+0 =4 (not counting general's boost)

OlafTheBrave

09-27-2005, 02:58

That is exactly why I said I was glad I spent the money on the Royal Estate in Swabia. Since I dont have VI Swabians are of no concern. However having some strong mele calvalry that psossibly has a star or two can be absolutly lovely in thsoe crucial early years. Also it is nice having a general with some moral when you are faciing those French Hordes of Archers not to mention something to actually chase them off the field with.

CountMRVHS

09-27-2005, 03:57

Just finished a 9-turn gaming session that felt like 50...

My game definitely turned the "bad" corner, around 1130. That was roughly the time the HRE goal came up: before that, I was pleasantly allied with everyone around me (except the Italians), and not at war with anyone. As I'm turtling, I didn't even see a single battle until I attacked Milan.

I mentioned earlier that I decided in this game to totally forget about the Crusade goals. Too much hassle for too little gain. It should be theoretically possible to grab one of the Holy Land provinces before time's up, and I know in the past I've succeeded at getting Antioch & Edessa; but I wanted to focus this time on the main part of the empire, which is where everything always fell apart anyway.

So, as soon as I attacked the Italians the Eastern front began to look very scary: the Polish and Hungarians dropped their alliances with me. Austria is my only Eastern troop-producing province; I spent most of my energy in the West, which is where I've always gotten slapped in the past. Nonetheless, I was able to hold Milan & take Tuscany before the Hungarians made their attack on Bohemia.

One thing I'm realizing about the HRE (well, any faction really) is that, when things are desperate, you need to know when to retreat. I'm a slow, conservative player but when I'm in a battle I almost never withdraw my general or my troops -- nope, keep 'em in there til the bitter end. In the same way I almost never abandon a province when I can command the battle and take out a few of their guys. But sometimes you need to fall back and consolidate.

My king during this crisis was a 3-influence, 6-piety, 0-everything else inbred but apparently very inspiring (+5 morale overall) guy. I also happened to have, in Austria, leading a full stack of UMs, Spears, Archers, Slav Warriors & Javs, a 4-star prince: my best leader. So when the Hungarians attacked Bohemia, I could have moved north with Prince Rudolph and his stack and taken it back. Instead, I decided to gamble. A unit of spearmen was still in the keep in Bohemia and I'd built stone walls (always remember to build stone walls on your keep!), so it would probably hold for a bit. But the Hungarian king was in Hungary next door... so Rudolph moves east and in the meantime I start to gather some forces from the west side of my empire over to be ready to attack Bohemia in a few turns.

Well, Austria to Hungary is a 2-bridge battle. They brought a bunch of Szekely and Jobbagy led by a 4-star prince (their king had moved to Bohemia, the jerk) and about 30 minutes later, after grinding most of my army away against their forces, I pulled off a Pyrrhic victory, losing 2/3 of Rudolph's stack. :embarassed:

The problem now was there was a force still in the keep in Hungary, and plenty of forces nearby to counterattack next turn. I could withdraw my men back to Austria.... OR, strike SW to Croatia with Rudolph and hope to trash that province.

No such luck. Although I won that battle too, a remnant retreated to the fort.

Meanwhile I had counterattacked with my King into Bohemia and kicked the Hungarians out; they counterattacked in force into Hungary (which I had vacated), and then attacked Austria. A branch from this force attacked Bohemia again, and whenthe battle screen came up I saw it was the Hungarian king (4-stars) with a single unit of HAs against my 0-star king, 2 spearmen, and 1 UM. I went for it and managed to kill the king :charge: ... not that it mattered in the long run. Somewhere about this time my elderly king was excommunicated, I had to quickly drop taxes in some northern provinces to prevent rebellion, and I made a fatal decision with Prince Rudolph. Rather than move him safely from Croatia (which was under siege) to Austria (which the Hungarians had under siege), he assaulted the fort in Croatia, hoping the Hungarians wouldn't counterattack. Well, they did. And the Italians, their allies, came along for the ride. Bye bye Rudolph.

Since my emperor was excommed, I figured what the hell; let's go for Rome! The Pope was sitting there with a scant force of UMs and Spears and withdrew without a fight, leaving only Naples to complete my HRE goal and more than 20 years to get it. By this time Naples is held by the Sicilians, who just offered an alliance which I took gladly.

On my last turn this evening I sent the Emperor to Austria to finally get rid of the Hungarians there before the Keep fell. He succeeded and that's where things stand now: few allies, my cash is draining (around 8000 in the bank and only 100 or so income per turn), and an active war in the south and the east. The only good news is that the current emperor is old, so the excommunication will die with him; and Prince Otto just came of age with 3 stars, 3 quills of acumen, and Irritable plus Secret Pride virtues.

Hopefully I can keep this going until the High period... but it's 1139 now, and this is usually the time when things fall apart with my HRE campaigns. Give me a Welsh game any day! I must admit, though, that this has been quite fun (mostly due to the excellent posts here) and I'm glad I went back to it.

Ugh... bedtime..

CountMRVHS

lugh

09-27-2005, 11:43

I mean the crusade goals (all of them) must be achieved by 1205 in order to score any points for them.

Perhaps I have an exaggerated sense of there not being enough time to get it done because I'm up to the late 1170's and only have two ships in the med, so far. Still plenty of time, of course but the margin is tighter than I'd like. Constant conflict on the European fronts has used up men and money, so my economy isn't as developed as it might be (farm improvements) and the sensation of having 2-3000 troops 'to spare' for crusading just isn't there.

I do them as a matter of course..... I have 5 campaigns ongoing (I get bored once my Empire is getting comfortable) and in all the Catholic ones (France, Spain, HRE and Sicily) I made a point of capturing the Holy Lands to get the GA points, because I don't like rampaging across the globe indiscriminately. In French GA, you need Tripoli by at least 1150 because another GA goal is the Krak de Chevalier, or in other words, having a Citadel in Tripoli. I think I'm past 1205 in all those games but once my computer is back I'll dig through the savegame folder for some screenshots.

I have one assassin up to v3 but old popey has BF's in Rome, making this something of a one-shot deal and he's considered more valuable as the emperor's bodyguard just now.
IIRC, I was lucky enough to capture a 2* drinking den in Naples when I reforged the HRE GA goal. sat a few of them in Venice and they knocked off dignitaries for a decde or so before moving onto troublesome neighbouring generals and then my 6* was eventually perma-stationed in the Papal States!

For the record I don't remember having any problems with Crusade GA goals. To the best of my memory the GA goal completed banner always popped up after the "your brave crusaders .... church sanctioned target" banner.

dgfred

09-27-2005, 16:00

The crusade goal completed banner DOES pop up when you capture the
province, but NO points are awarded unless you are retreated to the
castle :dizzy2: . I have the basic game, no patches, no mods :embarassed:
so this might be the difference but I have noted this 'bug' every time.

In my HRE games I always get Denmark, Sweden, and Flanders ~:cool: to
have a solid economic base while in the very early game. I like to keep my
east wall solid, my south wall even with the Italians, and expand to the north
and west. I really like to also get Toulouse and the French capital province
to secure a nice tidy empire, but they are not a priority.

Keep the great post and pics coming you guys, this is really enjoyable. ~:cheers:

Roark

09-28-2005, 01:16

Similar to CountMRVHS, my campaign is starting to look shaky as I cross the 1130AD threshold.

Eastern Front - I thought the Hungarians would tire of having their young men butchered by my hand, but for some reason, they are even more bloodthirsty than before. They appear in greater numbers than ever, and I need to somehow take Hungary before they develop a metalsmith. An alliance has been formed between Hungary and Poland, and the normally-placid Poles have sent emissaries to inspect my defences. They are massing at the Austrian border. I don't think I can hold them back if they attack in concert with each other.

Western Front - I have purged the French from the mainland at a moderate cost to my own armies, but the English (who have been peacefully building their infrastructure and economy) have now decided to attack in force. They have FMAAs, Royals, Cats, and hordes of spear units. I suspect the English King is very rich and can last longer than me in this conflict. I have to conquer quickly and decisively

Northern Front - My repeated attempts to forge an alliance with Olaf of the Danes have failed. I suspect that the bridge at Saxony is the only thing keeping him from invading over land, but his longboats have begun to appear in the Northern waters and made assaults on my burgeoning Hansean alliance.

Southern Front - The Papacy are at war with me in earnest and seem intent on taking Venice.

I'm running out of money, and my empire still suffers from crap heir syndrome. I don't even know why the HRE bother having elections. They apparently always pick the guy who has the worst money management skills.

Still having lots of fun, but there are so many factors which might topple my empire in a second.

CountMRVHS

09-28-2005, 01:23

Just played about 10 more turns tonight in my Early/GA/Expert HRE game (and under the effects of novocaine too, and an emerging pain in my jaw ... @#$%$ dentist...) and I actually seem to have reversed my turn of bad luck.

This has been one of the most wildly swinging games I've had: one minute everything appears lost; the next minute you're pulling out a crazy victory.

In my last session I had screwed things up royally by going after the HRE goal, which lost me all my nearby allies and inspired the Hungarians to attack me. We had gone back and forth for a few turns but the drain on my treasury was beginning to tell.... no more nice nest egg!

So today I fired it up and surveyed the situation. The Italians were still around in Genoa and Venice (and various places overseas), but weren't being too aggressive. To the west, France was holding onto most of its provinces despite a rebel enclave in Aquitaine, the Aragonese in Toulouse, and the English in Flanders. To the north, the Danes had expanded into Sweden and stopped. To the east, Poland was grabbing the rebel provinces to the north while Hungary was waiting to make another move on me.

My king at the time was around 58; 0-stars but great morale virtues that have saved my butt in several battles against the Huns. I guess even an Inbred king can be inspiring, if he's Chivalric enough :charge: . His son, Otto, had just come of age as a 3-star, 3-acumen Irritable prince with Secret Pride. The Emperor himself was besieging the Huns in Croatia; Otto was cooling it in Austria with some troops I'd been moving there to counter the eastern threat.

The HRE is frustrating because it's so hard to move around, especially in the southern half of the empire. My major troop-production centers were all in the west: Burgundy, Swabia and Switzerland. I had built a keep and some facilities in Austria; but of course the problem there is that Austria itself is on the frontline and vulnerable to attack. When Austria was under siege in my last session, I really depended on shunting my guys the long way over from the west.

Anyway, this was my thought: the Huns had sufficient forces in Hungary to move and relieve the siege in Croatia. Their 4-star King was in Hungary as well, and I didn't relish the thought of a King to King showdown between those two. On the other hand, I had some Swabians with my Emperor and my Prince, and enough forces to make a decent stand. But the fort in Croatia wasn't going to fall until NEXT turn; so in order to trash that province, I needed to siege it now. With that in mind, I set my Emperor's army to assault the fort and moved Prince Otto's half-stack to Hungary, with the hopes that his forces would "pin" the AI there and prevent them from interfering with my assault.

OK, hit End Turn. The Hun King had moved on me, after all, and was moving into Croatia to relieve the province. However, he only brought a token force with him -- some Jobbagy, HAs, UMs and Spears. My forces in Croatia were likewise small, but of better quality even though they had crap valour: 2 Archers, 2 MXBows, 1 Swabians, and a few UMs and Feudal Seargents.

For the battle, we set up on a nice hill overlooking a treeless plain. When the enemy got roughly within arrow range, I sent a MXbow along either wing to start taking pot-shots at the Hun King. Insanely, he abandoned his army and went off on a hopeless chase of the MXbows. The rest of his army trundled along at the bottom of the slope, apparently wondering whether to stay with their King or initiate the uphill assault.

This is one of the few times I've forsaken the higher ground. Siezing their moment of indecision, while their King was far away & preoccupied with my MXbows, I charged my weaker front-line infantry down the hill :charge: , leaving my King, archers, and the heavy-hitters at the top. My spears engaged their spears and Jobbaggy; they traded routs until I sent down more UMs to seal the deal.

By that time, the King had realized his error and was working his way back to my hilltop position. I turned my men to face him and sent the Swabians charging. This guy was a monster: alone, he reduced my Swabians to 10 men and wreaked havoc with my few Sergeants and UMs I had left on the hill. I kept my weak Emperor out of the fray but closeby for the morale bonus (although as he had no Command, that might not have even helped, right?). Eventually their king went down and the fighting in the plain below turned into a general rout. ~:cheers:

The turn wasn't over. Prince Otto was invading Hungary, which now was defended by a 3-star Prince who led an army twice the size of Otto's. On closer inspection, the Hun army was made up of mostly Jobbagy, some HAs, Szekely and Horsemen; and the Prince unit consisted of only a couple RKs. I decided to go through with the attack.

Strange, though: last time attacking from Austria to Hungary, there was a 2-bridge battle. This time there was only 1 bridge. The Huns made it easier, however, by deciding THEY were going to do the attacking around here. I hastily pulled back my men to a more defensive position around the bridge and let them come. We routed the first unit of Spears and then the enemy Prince himself came on through, surrounded by a press of Jobbagy and other infantry, with their cavalry close behind. My end of the bridge turned into a mob, with my Swabians hacking their way through to the Hun Prince and my UMs barely holding their ground. Soon though the inevitable happened: either by a javelin or two-handed Swabian sword, the Hungarian Prince fell and his army scattered. There are few things more pleasing in this world than the sound of a large enemy army sounding the alarm, unit by unit, and scrambling to run back across the bridge away from your victorious killers ~:cool: .

As a wonderful outcome of my 2-province victory, Prince Otto gained Skilled Attacker to add to his virtues; and the Sicilians offered the hand of their Princess. Good thing: Emperor Ferdinand died that year in Croatia after winning his battle and the new Emperor Otto IV, at the age of 18, now had a wife. But probably the BEST result of all this was that the Hungarians, having lost 2 members of the royal family and as many provinces, split in a civil war: the besieged garrisons in Croatia and Hungary went rebel, and a stack led by a 3-star RK unit (probably an ex-heir) rebelled in Wallachia.

Knowing I couldn't keep Hungary or Croatia, I trashed Croatia next turn and pulled back out of Hungary. The rebel vacuum was swiftly filled by my allies, the Byzantines. With no shared borders, the German/Hungarian war ended, leaving the Italians and the Pope as the only outright enemies of the Empire.

As I said above, Genoa and Venice were still held by the Italians; my Germans held Milan, Tuscany, and Rome; the Pope was still in the Papal States and the Sicilians held Naples. Once Hungary was taken care of, I moved Otto IV against the Doge in Venice, who retreated with all his army to Serbia, giving up the province without a fight. Genoa received the same treatment. I usually like to play more strictly to the goals than this, but I decided that I simply needed that land; if I didn't take it the Italians would be a thorn in my side for years to come. Even if they never attacked me they would cause problems by simply being allied to other factions - such as the Poles and Danes - who wouldn't ally with ME because of the war between the HRE and Italians. So I've kicked the Italians out of Italy altogether, although they maintain a presence in Serbia and Croatia (which they took from rebels) as well as the islands of Corsica and Sardinia. Of course their fleet continues to be a nuisance, but with the takeover of Venice I've managed to get a Barque in the Adriatic that is preventing the easy maneuvring of their armies. Hopefully in the years to come there will at least be a cease fire; if not, I'll need to take stronger action against them.

The biggest surprise came at the end of my session, and I'll close with that. The Holy Father himself came out of the Papal States at the head of a ragtag army to challenge my authority in Venice. The Pope had 0-stars and led an army composed of UMs, Feudal Sergeants, Spears and Peasants; my army outnumbered his and was much more of a mixed force, with Archers, 2 Swabians, plenty of FS and UMs, and led by a MXbow governor. Needless to say, we made pretty short work of them, but the Pope himself got away, thus ending my hopes of getting out of the excommunication quickly. I thought my excom would end with the death of my last Emperor, but apparently not.... young Otto IV is still under the papal ban.

All in all it's been a successful decade for the HRE. The Polish have apparently turned on what's left of the Hungarians, their former allies, and the Byz are now a reasonable force in the Balkans. If only I could end the Italian war and have some peace; rebuild some alliances and start making money again (I have 3 trade fleets in the North Sea, Skagerrak, and the English Channel, but it's netting me a pathetic 60 Fl./turn.). Sadly, I don't see that happening very soon. At least things seem to be stabilizing again somewhat, and I'm leading in GA points. If I can hold on 'til High, I just might make it....

CountMRVHS

Roark

09-28-2005, 01:30

His Holiness is easily the most nimble and fleet-footed unit I have ever seen flee from a battlefield. I have NEVER, EVER managed to capture him for the purposes of ransom or execution...

Thus far I've had 3 failed opportunities in Venice (goading him to attack me, basically)...

Very frustrating.

yesdachi

09-28-2005, 05:45

@ Count - You probably could have gone another 10 turns in the time it took to type out all the events of your game. Thanks for sharing! ~:)

EatYerGreens

09-28-2005, 17:50

@ Count - You probably could have gone another 10 turns in the time it took to type out all the events of your game. Thanks for sharing! ~:)

I said this storytelling business is addictive! ~;)

Twice now I've spent so long on the forum (other threads, as well as this one) that I didn't get a single turn played in the day. It helps to take a break from it and come back later with fresh ideas in mind. Huge amounts of time goes into simply *thinking* about what to do next. The logistical problems then drag things out further... one unit in the wrong place or forgetting to move a key unit before pressing 'End Year' and you can find yourself delaying an attack until it catches up. Check and re-check everything.

In my game, Austria is relatively undeveloped (FM&B, Townwatch, 20%) and might be the reason I never had trouble from the Huns - they didn't think it was worth taking. They're long since gone but the Byz don't seem attracted by it either. Bohemia is developed likewise. I thought I was pushing my luck by building the silver mine but even that hasn't tempted anyone. The Poles did attack it once but withdrew without battle.

Bavaria has been sending a trickle of FS northeast to look after the river crossings but only one MtdSerges went east, as he had 3 stars (his name suggests he may be a 'hero' general), the rest spread about other fronts.

So my only eastern troop producer has been Silesia. I raised just one unit of Slav Warriors (only just better than pez!) to make up the numbers, then churned some woodsmen for a while. Partly for the novelty factor, mostly for 'cheapnis' but a pinch of AP ability at the bridges would be handy, I thought. Yeah, they'll probably just rout on me but you never know. They did come in handy a while later though.

I attacked the rebels in Denmark with a force which was only just bigger, hoping for a battle but they meekly retreated to their keep. My four star general may have had something to do with that. They had woodsmen too and I'd taken three units with me, in hope of matching them against one another. In any case, I swapped him, his FMAAs and archers out for some Saxony-raised v0 peasants, some spears, just in case, plus another couple of woodsmen and a 2* RK general in expectation of an assault (you can't move in and castle-assault on the same turn). This was all so that the trashy units took the worst of the siege losses and this amounted to just over 70 men, the equivalent of a whole unit gone but obviously spread out among all of them. I lacked siege gear so autocalced the keep assault battle (cheesy, sorry) and won without the keep being reduced to a fort. The port went but the Dockyard was left in place. Once the province is stabilised, I can start my northern fleet even though no trade income will start until the port is rebuilt.

An over-ambitious building/training program had seen my Treasury dip from 4000+ to around 900 florins around the time of the Denmark invasion. However, on the same turn as assaulting Roskilde castle, I invaded Rome.

This was slightly touch and go as, with impeccable timing, the Papal States stack attacked Tuscany as my expeditionary force left. Fortunately, the Tuscany battle was resolved first and also, instead of making my Rome invasion force oversized, I'd taken only enough to do the job, with the general's 3 stars giving me the edge. In Tuscany, their lack of archers was telling. They maneuvered hither and thither, trying to disguise where they were to strike my hilltop position. My archers were well forward and got numerous rounds away. I think some of the papal units must have crossed each other's path as my archers didn't seem to skirmish away from the units nearest them. I had set them on hold-form but not on hold-position. Nevertheless, one got slightly caught and all three had to be manually pulled to safety. Meanwhile, the bulk of their force was to my left and 1 FMAA, 2 MilSerges and two UMs from my right charged downhill, rescued the archers and soon set the opposition running. My RK general chased some of their UMs which routed forwards and I was careful to ensure the router pursuit was limited to the left hand edge of the map, as I knew they'd brought artillery. The kills ratio was close to 8:1 but no defender V&V was gained as a result. Perhaps the victory was a little too easy?

The Pope himself decided victory was not his but, mysteriously, chose not to retreat to his castle and evacuated the province. The resultant pillage was considerable but there are numerous juicy buildings still in place. Loyalty was in the red, since my force had been small. Tempting as a ready-made 1* assassin might have been, I raised some armoured FMAA instead, for what was to follow.

Just as in Count's game, the reverses of fortune are amazing. From 4000 florins down to 900 and then, with ransom and two doses of pillage, back up to 4000+ again in the space of two turns.

Somewhere in the midst of all this action, the magnificent emperor, Herrmann II, died of an illness whilst stationed in Lorraine. The new Emperor is [EDIT: Heinrich V], who had been in charge of Provence but is relocated to Swabia, since that is effectively the capital at present, leaving a 0-star, 1 loyalty, leader in Provence. Luckily, Herrmann had not acquired 'Steward' so there was no dramatic pinch on the economy with his passing. Recent boosts to funds and incomplete farms projects soon to complete may help Conrad get it instead.

In the meantime, I was pleased to obtain a ceasefire with the English, so Provence is not really threatened anymore, then the English went on to exterminate the Aragonese.

Sadly and mysteriously, I had the same problem as CountMRVHS. The excommunication persisted after Herrmann's death. Perhaps the ongoing war situation with the Papacy had something to do with this?

My frustration grew, rather than abating, when the Pope also died a few turns later, just after his evacuation from Rome. Yes, the excommunication is now annulled but a rebellion has risen in Rome - more than enough FMAAs to slaughter my mostly UM forces, as far north as Milan!

That's the point where I saved the game and had to make a reappearance on the forum. The loyalist revolt stack is on the board and it's a Papal army, not rebels. I think fighting it in a field battle will result in instant excom again and that wipes out my hopes of Crusading to the Holy Lands, which I really want to try out, if only to check for this points bug.

The question is, if I pull my force out of Rome and let them retake it without resistance, the territory changing hands still counts as 'hostilities in progress' and could mean excom all the same. I will have something like 2-3 FMAA in Tuscany, 2 RKs, both 3* generals, some MilSerges and 4-5 v1 (Tuscany-raised) UMs. In all, no match for the multiple FMAAs in the loyalist stack. I'll be lucky if, the turn after next, it doesn't split in two, or mix with the Papal States stack and come after me in Tuscany. Again, if the Pope attacks me, it's still instant excom.

I'm tempted to upload the gamesave because there are so many options for what buildings to destroy in Rome, for the cash, before I evacuate. The watchtowers need to go, in case an assassination opportinity arises. The Alehouse has to go, so he can't raise agents for a while. Swordsmith, Guild level spears, archer workshop, 20% farms.

Terribly, terribly tempting to smash the castle itself and build more crops or a keep at home but it's massively cheesy. With all the troops he has to maintain and pathetic income once I've torched Rome's farms, he will be lucky to get it back to fort level before the cash runs out. Something to trap him in, at a later date, could be useful. [EDIT: I've since learned that faction leaders evade castle entrapment when they have provinces to escape to instead.] Besides, that'll save me money on redevelopment if I retake Rome at a later date. The next points opportunity for it is a long way off.

Basically, my move into Rome couldn't have happened at a worse time. I'd sent a bishop to approach the old pope for a ceasefire *after* taking Rome but it was the new pope who refused him an audience. Remember it was the Papacy who initiated the war in the first place. Does he want us to crusade the Holy Lands, or doesn't he?

The game really ought to have been hard-coded to stop the Cathy factions from attacking one another before 1205, so that they could work together and all resources could have gone on Crusading. After 1205, all hell can break loose, afaic.

EDIT Reason: factual corrections and additional info.

dgfred

09-28-2005, 19:00

The massive problems conflict with the Pope causes is the main reason I tend
to leave the Pope be, and usually forget about that part of the GA points
unless something extraordinary happens to give me an opening. As for Austria I usually use it for priest/assassins/inquis/etc and alson build up the
mines. I like to use Franconia and Bohemia for units because of the iron
supplies there. With Switzerland, Burgandy, Swabia and sometimes Provence
producing my early units I can usually hang on until I'm able to produce some
of the stronger units.

Any pics available for us to gaze at EYG? Thanks for your efforts with this. ~:cheers:

yesdachi

09-28-2005, 19:47

I finally got to play yesterday/last night!!!!! (I have been working a lot)

Brief recap and then the action, HRE/early/expert I’m not sure what year it is but I just got the gunpowder notice and I am about 30 points ahead of others. I have taken over everything from the HRE’s original eastern front all the way west and down around to Egypt. I managed to get some priests built and moved them around to see what is going on in other areas. I was excited and surprised to see the Turks and Russians were combating with massive armies in the NE, I have never seen the Russians with such a large army (10 partial stacks in one province :knight: ). Also surprising was the fact there was no sign of the Mongols at all. I had good timing, because an interesting thing happened in the middle of the Turk/Russian battlefront, the Spanish reappear!! Not in Spanish territory but in one of the small NE provinces ~:eek: . They had 3 stacks with some pretty good troops but after a few turns were wiped out.

I was able to make it thru at least 25 turns without any war, which is crazy because I am at war with everyone except the Turks and Russians (there are still 7+ factions left). I was able to organize my troops into several armies, 2 in the north and one in the south, and one ready for crusade action. I also had the chance to build some buildings, farms, ships, not many troops, I’m trying to save my money for the better ones that I will have available soon.

One of the most surprising things to happen was that I have 6 heirs and all of them rock :grin: ! The worst of them is a 4* with Pride. The best is a 5* with 8 feathers!!!

The only downside is that I think I have conquered too much :shrug: and depending on how the war between the Turks and Russians goes I might be too powerful to be beaten. Perhaps I will stick to the HRE’s general area for my next game.

dgfred

09-28-2005, 20:30

CountMRVHS

09-28-2005, 23:49

@EYG:

RE: Papal abandonment of province. You'll see this happen with any AI "king" unit - Pope, King, Emperor, whatever. Basically, if you attack the province where their king is sitting, and if you bring a larger/more threatening army to that battle, the AI will withdraw out of the province altogether rather than allow their king to be trapped in the fort. As you know, when you choose to retreat to the fort the message says something like "your general will attempt to get the best men into the fort"; well, a king unit is always going to be shortlisted for that. It's kind of smart of the AI to do that, actually, to regroup with their royal family to a better position rather than let you assault & kill their king next turn.

Of course you can exploit this knowledge when you want to burn a province for some quick cash: attack wherever the king is, and bring a big army. The AI will abandon the province, and you can destroy and burn to your heart's delight. The problem here is that it's rather difficult to get the timing down: often you'll invade and the king will have moved out on the same turn, leaving you facing a battle you weren't expecting. It can be something of a shell game, pinning down that AI king.

RE: excomm. As I understand it, if the Pope is the initiator of a war with you, you don't necessarily get the instant excom that you would get if YOU started the war and attacked the Pope. Been awhile since I fought the Pope (I usually try to be a good Catholic turtle ~D ), but I'm pretty sure I've seen the pope attack me and I didn't get slapped. I think I remember other people mentioning the same thing. Now, I'm not sure to what extent you can fight BACK without getting hit, if at all...

CountMRVHS

Roark

09-29-2005, 01:16

@ yesdachi:

I'm extremely jealous of your heir situation. My Emperors have only managed 2-3 sons on a consistent basis, and none of my royal line has exceeded 3 stars or 6 influence, despite the fact that I now own everything from Brittany to Hungary!!! I've only had one failed crusade, but God seems to have cursed my Royal family as a result.

CountMRVHS

09-29-2005, 01:37

Just played another 9 turns and had some interesting developments, but will try to keep it brief.

My first order of business was to try and end the wars ongoing with the Papacy and Italy. In Italy, I held Milan, Tuscany, Venice, Genoa, and Rome; the Italians held Serbia and Croatia (king in Croatia) as well as Corsica and Sardinia; the Pope held the Papal States and the Sicilians held Naples.

So, I send a half-stack to take out the 0-star Pope. My general is an ex-heir RK with maybe 1 star, but when I got to the battle screen I saw that he must have been a Drunkard of some kind because his valour was at -1. Oh well; nothing in this papal army but 1 full RK, a catapult, a ballista, and some crap ragtag peasant/spear/UM partial units. I advance my army forward. As the enemy catapult fires for the first time I ponder the many times I've read here at the Org about generals in MTW having some sort of "big giant rock magnet" implanted in their skulls. Sure enough, the very first boulder smashes into my RK unit and squashes my general flat. Sober up, fella! Watch for falling rocks!

I have to stress that this catapult unit must have been 0-valour, as it was under the command of a no-star pope general. It got me thinking, though: might the negative valour of my general have somehow "drawn" the missile to him? Just curious. I've never seen that happen to me.

As it turns out it really had no effect on the battle. I killed all on the field; no one escaped to the Keep, and by the next turn the Papacy was wiped out and I burned the Papal States. I abandoned the province, hoping that when the Pope re-emerged, he would do it there and leave Rome alone.

Meanwhile, I had just trained Henry the Lion (4-star general) in Austria as a unit of FS, so I sent him to Croatia with a stack and some extra to push out the Italians. They left without a fight and next turn I cornered them in Croatia (my fleet blockaded theirs so there was no seaborne retreat this time!) and killed the king. The remainder of the garrison that escaped the battle turned rebel next turn, but the Italians remained on the islands.

My plan originally was to burn Serbia and withdraw back to Venice to regroup, but...... Serbia's pretty rich! At least for an HRE province. Having a Gold Mining Complex survive the siege didn't hurt either. So I'm keeping it, mostly to deny the Byz the chance of getting it: they hold pretty much everything else in the Balkans and, although we're allied, I fear the moment when they break that alliance.

Sadly, Italy maintained a fleet, so we were still at war; and Poland, their ally, wouldn't allywith me. I'd hate to see Poland attack me -- not that I wouldn't be able to handle it, but it might give their allies, the Byz, a chance to break their alliance with ME. So, I have to work on ending the war with Italy for good and getting back in Poland's good graces.

Spent a few turns just building and enjoying watching my income increase again; I'm back in the heady days of 2000/turn and hovering around 10,000 in the bank. Nice! ~:cool:

Not so nice: when I retreated from the Papal States, a tiny rebel force cropped up, and the Sicilians took advantage. Wouldn't you know it; the VERY YEAR the Sicilians make their move north, the Papacy returns...... and just guess which province?? (drum roll)......................

Rome!! :balloon2: ~:cheers: :balloon2:

It's a typical Papal reemergence; around 6 stacks of decent units. In other words, too much for me to handle at the moment. I move my army out of Rome but leave the buildings intact: hey, I want to get this place back eventually. Interestingly, before I even hit End Turn my diplomacy shows I'm at war with the Papacy again.... and when I hit End Turn and check the diplomacy again, after they officially take over the province, we're at peace. Huh. I'm sending an emissary to try to turn that into an alliance next turn.

I've certainly bought myself some elbow-room, but now I'm getting apprehensive about the next stage in the game, as various factions get stronger and start to get more aggressive. The French kicked the English out of Flanders and have been taking baby steps North; they now hold Wessex and have stopped for a few turns. The Aragonese continue to hold Toulouse and, astonishingly, 2 units of rebel Archers hold Aquitaine. Why doesn't the AI go after these tiny rebel forces? The Byz, as I said, are the major force to my immediate East, but Poland has just wiped out the Hungarians. The year is 1156.

CountMRVHS

EatYerGreens

09-29-2005, 02:04

@ dgfred No worthwhile pics at the moment, sorry.

@ CountMHRVS. Thanks for those Faction leader entrapment tips. That will come in handy in future. I've been known to abandon provinces purely to save a general with stars on him, let alone my faction leader, as I know I have enough forces within reach to quickly take it back. I can take the loss of income if it means I don't lose a decent leader to starvation in some dumb siege.

RE: excomm. As I understand it, if the Pope is the initiator of a war with you, you don't necessarily get the instant excom that you would get if YOU started the war and attacked the Pope. Been awhile since I fought the Pope (I usually try to be a good Catholic turtle ~D ), but I'm pretty sure I've seen the pope attack me and I didn't get slapped. I think I remember other people mentioning the same thing. Now, I'm not sure to what extent you can fight BACK without getting hit, if at all...

CountMRVHS

What complicated matters for me was that a Papal Warning, specifically for hostilities against the French, preceded the excommunication but there was also action against the excommed English (Crusade to Anjou) plus the Pope initiating war against me, all mixed up in a short space of time. The excom itself was a generalised "for aggression against fellow Christians" but my initial thought was that there was a direct link to the Pope's aggression against me. In other words, he can attack you and then use that as justification for instant excom. I'm glad to hear that this assumption is incorrect.

If I read you right, I should burn Rome, for whatever cash I desire (like you, I'm tempted to actually leave the castle in place, in case I get Rome back in the near future) and pull out in my next move? Unlike in your case, I expect the war to remain ongoing (mine does not involve a re-emergence) and if he gathers both stacks and attacks Tuscany the year after, am I supposed to pull out again and let him have it or do you still think I can fight him off and not risk excom? (Same war, new Pope, cos the old one died in the year of the loyalist uprising).

EatYerGreens

09-29-2005, 03:51

I don't often wind back and re-read old parts of a thread but, if I hadn't, I wouldn't have spotted this (below) at all. It didn't show up as 'latest post in this thread' so it must have gone in when I was drafting the one with the pics in it.

EYG is easily the most prolific writer in the MTW Org.

As they say about life, you have to put stuff into it, to get anything out of it!

It should be noted that a lot of things I've picked up, from reading this place, do get incorporated back into what I write, with or without my own 'spin' on things. However, my memory is terrible - I remember the facts but not where I read it or who said what and when. Apologies to all whom I'm 'derivative' of.

CountMRVHS

09-29-2005, 04:33

Well, the strange thing for me was the fact that, even though the Pope technically invaded "my" province (I still had ownership of Rome even though I'd moved all my troops out), we somehow didn't end up going to war. I fully expected, when I pulled out of Rome, that I'd be back at war with the pope, but that I would *not* be excommed as a result of this, because he was the aggressor.

Can anyone else confirm this, by the way? I'm going from memory here, but I'm 99% sure there have been times when the pope attacked me and I did not get the instant excom.

At any rate, it seems like in my case the pope didn't even realize he attacked me, so we're not at war. In your case, however, you're at war already. My *guess* here would be that, since you are at war with the Pope as is, any actions you take against him will be seen in the context of that war and will not lead to excom. Only a guess, though. Fortunately, it doesn't sound like you're planning on attacking; you're more interested in drawing a line somewhere in Italy beyond which the pope cannot go. I am much more confident that, if you fight a *defensive* battle, you won't get excommed. And Tuscany is a good bottleneck province to keep; if you give it up, he can strike at Genoa, Milan and Venice (depending on what you have).

Of course if I'm wrong here and you DO get excommed for just defending, all you have to do is meet the Pope barefoot in the snow and kneel at his feet and all will be forgiven. Oh, and don't make a fuss about holding the stirrup of his horse when he goes to dismount -- trust me. ~D

CountMRVHS

OlafTheBrave

09-29-2005, 04:49

Agression by the Pope does not ex-comm you. Deffending will not either. Re-taking a province or an attack will get ya the broken cross.

AntiochusIII

09-29-2005, 04:54

The pope attacking you unprovoked will not cause an instant excom. I remember I got a warning about it (being Italians, early, unintentionally baited him into Venice with low garrison ~;) how sad I couldn't capture him. I thought I was about to jump-start my economy), though I'm not sure that's always the case for the warning.

Also, when he reemerges, you can retreat all your forces from the provinces he reemerge from on that turn and it will not be considered war. I'm not sure if this is the case to all re-emergence or not, though I have a vague memory it should.

However, even though he attacks you first, any retaliation you take will instantly excommunicate you. I suggest that EYG should regroup, led the pope spread thinner into Southern Italy, take him again when he's thinly-spreaded (Rome, IMO, is essential for points...and Imperial ego ~;) ), and forces him into eternal "confinement" in the Papal States. Takes a lot of effort, but will save you the trouble for the rest of the game.

Otherwise, get the assassins going!

I remembered something about if you managed to secure a ceasefire (almost impossible) from the pope when you're ex-commed, you'll return to his good Catholic grace. Though it probably is a mistake/misunderstanding on my part. Can anyone shed light on this?

Really great thread, by the way. Makes me Nostalgic about MTW as a whole, and my black empires especially.

yesdachi

09-29-2005, 13:32

Good playing yesdachi ~:cheers: . How did you start out? I mean, what
were your builds/stategy/troop/etc..... and which factions caused you early
problems. On expert it is really hard for me to get the HRE going :embarassed: , you have made it look easy ~;) . Maybe when you
restart with them you can update us from the beginning.
This is actually the same game I started back in the 1st page of this thread. I just haven’t had the chance to play/update very often :embarassed: . I don’t know if I am getting to be a better player or if I have been very lucky this game. Maybe a little of both ~:) but I attribute most of the success of this game to playing, although in GA mode, with a “conquest” :charge: attitude. I think I may push forward a little and take the 60% win and start a new one with a “GA” attitude.

@ Roark – I have been very surprised at the quality of heirs too. I thought that since this was an expert game and I am doing well I thought I would be given the worst ones ever! The AI gods are probably saving them all for my next game ~;) .

ajaxfetish

09-29-2005, 16:26

I'll confirm Count's & Antiochus' statements. Defending against Papal aggression has not excommunicated me, though retreating to my stronghold in the face of his superior troops and then bringing in forces to retake my land the next turn has. IIRC, I have pulled completely out of provinces in the event of a reemergence (of any faction) and thus avoided going to war with them.

EYG-It may be awhile before you can take Rome back, and since the war is going to keep on going, I'd raze Rome to the ground (Vandal-style) and consolidate in Tuscany. That'll keep him from producing any more good troops and possibly bankrupt him. I wouldn't consider it too cheesy to tear down his keep. Why hand over a perfectly good defensive position to an enemy when you have it in your control and can leisurely take it apart brick by brick? Especially when you can then sell off all your new bricks and use the cash to improve some farmland? ~;) Anyway, if you can get enough good troops together in Tuscany and stay on the defensive, you should be able to keep the faith, maintaining a little more influence, troop loyalty, and the option to fulfill your crusading desires!

Good luck!

EatYerGreens

09-30-2005, 21:38

Well, I razed Rome but had to reload a gamesave and do it again because....

There's a slight problem involving the castle upgrade structures (so a slight tie-in with another recent thread). Basically, when I went to destroy his 'Ring Wall and Catapult towers', it only offered me 150 florins but the entire castle disappeared off the map at the same time!! ~:eek:

No 1000 florins on top for the castle destruction, so I reloaded and smashed everything except the castle upgrade. So, whilst it's unlikely the AI will ever employ that tactic, there is another motivation for building the upgrades.

It's easy to forget that the upgrades take the place of the base fort/keep/castle on the province's buildings window. Obviously some glitch in the destruction coding only gives you half the value of the upgrade, not the half-value of the whole structure.

I did toy with the idea of leaving a small garrison in the castle and having some fun watching them assault versus all these catapults on the walls but pulled out completely, instead. As per recent postings, there was no excom. He did attack me in Tuscany, only to lose and then refuse ransom, so he's definitely skint.

I only got my funds up to around 5000 or so and rather rapidly spent the lot. I got a Crusade marker trained, only to find that the ongoing war situation means that I get a message saying 'These lands are owned by the {faction} and the Pope forbids you to launch any crusades'. So I've wasted my money, basically.

I've advanced to 1192, still unable to crusade and just about broke. I had to demolish my own training buildings in certain provinces in order to raise enough to get a Trade Post into Flanders, a fort in Lorraine and a TP there as well - the only economic improvements I could afford. Also a port in Tuscany (as soon as considered safe from Papal attacks), so as to double the income of my four ships.

I had put a port in place in Denmark but the attack on a small force in Sweden failed dismally. On the strat map their general was 3-star but in the pre-battle screen he showed as 4-star (it lied...again!!). Later checks on his V&V's showed nothing giving an extra star on defence - contrarily, he had Poor Last Stand, -1 Cmd when faced by superior odds. I ploughed on when I shouldn't have - better valour on his troops. My general's RK's auto-charged and got carved up by 43 Vikings, leaving me with only 3 of them to face-off with the 8 knights their general had, v1 versus v4. All three of mine died on contact. I tried to shoot him down with mounted xbows but they ended up being charged and cut down to half strength. I had to withdraw in the end but the timer was running out anyway. Every enemy unit but their general had been routed but it was ultimately unwinnable with the rags I was left with.

Anyway, just after that, the Danes re-emerge with 4 stacks in Norway and the force which just beat me joins them, so I can't make a follow up attack unless I want BIG trouble! Give or take the duration of their Norway siege, the four stacks can be in Denmark before I complete a ship if I started it now. Assuming I can even afford one, that is!

The Sicilians also re-emerge, with about 5 stacks in Sardinia, with the rebels in Sicily, Naples and Malta joining their cause. My ships now link Genoa with Malta (I had half a plan for invading Malta which I'm glad never came to pass) so Genoa's trade is on the up. Then they spoil things slightly by attacking the Byz in Corsica, which will likely wreck that port as well as give me a tough choice over who to be allied with.

The Poles (allies) do put me on exactly this kind of spot by attacking the Byz (also allies) in Prussia. Instinct told me to be united with my Cathy chums, against the natural rival of the HRE's self-styled 'successor to ancient Rome' ideal but I was a 'cowardy custard' and chose to stick with the side who had been the longer-standing ally of the two and who'd left me alone for all this time.

Probably a poor choice though - the GA points screen tells me they've lost every single one of their former homelands and, to cap it all, a large force of Turks pokes a hole in the Byz front on my eastern border, taking over a ery well-developed Hungary (nice income level). I don't feel in a position to stop them, if they come any further. They have about 1500 men and a 5* commander, I have about 700 and a 2* one. Everyone else is 2-3 year's travel away and, if I should budge any of those, in come the French. Gulp.

In the meantime, the Spanish King got a bit over-ambitious in his attacks and got himself killed, wiping out his faction. In the last few turns, all of Spain has gone Almo and one of their >30 buildings goals is shown in green. Action in Spain (and the English taking Aragon) smashed the ports on its coast some time ago, hence my ships moving eastward.

Did I say I was broke? All the money from Rome was spent, I smashed some of my own buildings in desperation to increase income. I've demobilised several of my more trashy units but only managed to get cashflow just above 500 per turn. There's almost no troop movements I can make without some province dropping its income because the tax rate dips from Very High to High (autotax is on).

I have been passing the time by retraining some troops, to give them armour and, with my cash levels so low, I'm beginning to wonder if it is 'free' after all?

My final 'major investment' was splashing out 400 (about half my treasury) on a Horse Breeder in Swabia, the last item requied to make FK's. I don't think I can actually afford to train any but it's a small comfort to know I might be able to raise some after the next battle with heavy casualties ups my cashflow once more.

So, I'm stuck. All I can do now is sit back and wait to be attacked by whatever comes. The extended period of peace (excom gone) means no earnings from ransom and pillage. Basically my underlying economy was never healthy enough to support the size of army I've raised. Even these now look puny in the face of three nearby re-emergences (Poles, Danes, Sicilians), not to mention the Turks coming on the scene. The Sicilians obviously had a wad of starting cash as they have already got a ship into the med. We all KNOW what they like to do with those and they are my sole trading partner right now. Suddenly this game looks like no fun any more. :embarassed:

OlafTheBrave

09-30-2005, 22:40

EatYerGreens

09-30-2005, 23:27

Dont build for a few turns if necessary and consider a Drang Nach Osten crusade. You have it built so use it. Also the pope will not let you crusade against a faction he is allied with so keep an eye on that. I would also recomend taking auto tax off but keeping a close eye on the loyalty percentage. 98% would be well worth the risk for extra income.

Hmmm, my post was a bit long and rambling, so a crucial bit of what I was saying got buried.

The Pope will not let me launch this crusade at ANYWHERE!!

Rebel-held provinces were highlighted as potential targets but each time, I got the same message about him 'not permitting' any such activity. Interestingly, when I hovered it over the Levant targets, they came up in a deep red colour. Gah!

Another odd thing I've noticed, in a similar vein, is that Inquisitors would not light up in grey when I hovered them over rebel generals. When these joined the Sicilian re-emergence, suddenly they became legitimate targets. After surprisingly few inquests, I got one up to 4 stars (yum!) and another to two stars. Star rating of the target seems to make the Inquie's rank go up by leaps and bounds (e.g. first success and they go from nil stars to two, in one go).

I also fried the three/four star general who'd killed the commander of my Swedish invasion army but this only became possible after he'd joined the Danes' re-emergence. Still can't fry the Pope though (0% chance). :-(

I have one assassin now up to four stars, so I'm contemplating going rampant on my western front, obliterating the French to make some cash and not caring about the excom, then whack him so I can send this crusade off.

Actually, I think it's the war-footing with the Pope which is preventing Crusades (I'm not excommed yet), so it's looking like the only hope is to wipe him out completely, then evacuate when he re-emerges.

yesdachi

10-01-2005, 00:14

Actually, I think it's the war-footing with the Pope which is preventing Crusades (I'm not excommed yet), so it's looking like the only hope is to wipe him out completely, then evacuate when he re-emerges.
That's what I would do.:bow:

Geezer57

10-01-2005, 04:48

I also fried the three/four star general who'd killed the commander of my Swedish invasion army but this only became possible after he'd joined the Danes' re-emergence. Still can't fry the Pope though (0% chance). :-(

If you don't have any better immediate targets, go ahead and try the Pope with your Inquisitor. Keep it up long enough, and he'll start gaining negative vices (heresy, atheist, etc.). With enough of those, his piety should hit rock bottom and your Inquisitor will soon succeed.

yesdachi

10-02-2005, 04:12

Well after playing a few more turns of my HRE/early/expert/GA game I decided that I was unbeatable and called it quits. An interesting thing I did before quitting was attack the Turks just to have the chance to fight them. I made the mistake of not really checking out what their army was composed of, they kicked my @$$!~D They had a bunch of heavy calv, janisary’s and gulam bodyguards (sp? On all of them) I don’t typically cheer for my opponents but loosing to them was a blast. ~:cheers:
______________________________________________

I start another early/expert HRE game and this time I plan on following the GA goals and not conquering as much. Well here goes….

First turn I build watchtowers in every province. I am totally gong to need the builder virtue to boost happiness. I start troop production of everything I can.

Second turn I get the builder virtue and start a keep in Swabia and a few forts.

Third turn I move into position to attack Venice and in the fourth I do!! They run and I get warned by the Pope. Fifth turn I assault the castle and win, Venice is mine!~:cool: And the Pope asks me for an alliance, I accept. 4 forts are built. I get a heir, he’s just ok, 2* and a drunk. I didn’t mention it but my king is the typical starter, 3* often drunk (now also builder).

Sixth turn I get a marriage proposal from the Hungarians to my heir, I accept. I find a great gov. for Venice, 7 feathers after the title!!~:cool: I start construction on 3 more forts.

Turn seven and I complete a few more buildings, town watches, inn, and a bowyer, and get the great builder virtue, and the +1 loyalty is very welcome as many of my generals have only 2 or 3 loyalty. The Hungarians cancel their alliance and choose the Italians. And to round out the year I buy a Byz. Katank from my Inn and send him north, they should do well against all the Danes heirs. My plan is to conquer north and south (stopping at the Pope) so that I only need to defend on the east and west.

Turn eight brings me a new heir a 4* and on nine I marry off a princess to the Polish. I also accept an alliance with the English and Byz. The keep in Swabia is built and I start one in Province and a swordsmith in Swabia.

Turn ten I attack the Danes with my Katank, an archer, spear, and a bunch of UM’s. I also attack the Italians. The Spanish offer a daughter and I accept. This is the most daughter offers I have ever gotten!!:dizzy2:

Turn eleven shows my first major mistake, attacking the Italians. I am paying attention to the years and I still attack them, duh!:furious3: I’m excomed.:embarassed: And my coffers immediately show it as the auto-tax adjusts almost every province down to low or very low just to keep them from rebelling. I also had to move some troops around to keep a few over 100%. I am still attacking the Italians; I figure what the heck, I’m already excomed. The Danes are history!!

12th turn the Pope calls for everyone to crusade against me. But I don’t think anyone can yet. I score 14 GA points, a tie for 1st place with the Almos and I get another heir.

I keep fighting the Italians for a few years. I get the swordsmith but can’t afford to build any. My financial troubles are growing and I am -$1200 in the treasury and my next years projected income is -$200 then on my next turn I conquer Genoa and some $$ and Ransom an heir for $1250!! Not a money solution but it helped. The Italians are off the mainland and I set a ship in the production que in Venice, the Italians were nice enough to build a shipwright there for me~;) .

A few turns later the Hungarians attack Bohemia and are repelled. A few turns later they attack again and take it!:furious3: I didn’t have enough time to refortify. Next turn I take it back but they sacked some of my buildings. Get another Heir.

The best thing to happen to me in the game comes a few turns later as the Italians launch a sea attack into Genoa with their King and I kick the crap out of them and get an $8,552 ransom!!~D The next turn they do the same thing and I get $10,701 in ransom from them!!!~:cool: I am building all the stuff I wanted, farm improvements, a chapter house an armory for my swords and another shipwright in Denmark. The sad thing is that my King dies and I get a crappy one with only one feather.

Next turn Argon and the Sicilians offer daughters, more daughters!!:dizzy2:

Well that’s where I am, a few things I can note are that the English and French are not allied or at war but they both have built up some pretty impressive armies, a “cold war” perhaps? Other than that I really don’t know what is going on in the rest of the world but I plan on crusading soon so I will find out.~:)

EatYerGreens

10-02-2005, 18:54

If you don't have any better immediate targets, go ahead and try the Pope with your Inquisitor. Keep it up long enough, and he'll start gaining negative vices (heresy, atheist, etc.). With enough of those, his piety should hit rock bottom and your Inquisitor will soon succeed.

I would never have thought doing that. After all, if the first attempt fails, why on earth should anyone expect repeat attempts to do anything?

How do people find these little tricks out ayway? Perhaps somebody, somewhere has a persistent streak. ~;)

Pope's piety is about 6 crosses at the mo, so it will take a lot of goes but I now have one inquisitor at 5* (the first one I built keeps releasing people and is still only at 2* as a result) and will try my luck.

EatYerGreens

10-02-2005, 22:01

By way of a progress report, I've advanced as far as 1198, so points year is fast approaching. I got a ceasefire from the English so hopefully there will be no funny business in Friesland or Saxony, this round.

The Poles were silly enough to take on the Byz by trying to break out of Pomerania into Prussia and have paid for it big-style by getting themselves wiped out to a man. You can tell these re-emergences come with big wads of cash, since Pomerania is only worth 350-odd a year and, not content with the two stacks left after they'd seiged the rebels (former Polish troops!), they proceeded to build a pile of Archers, Slav Warriors and other stuff before their foolhardy expedition.

The Byz are leaving my eastern border alone, for now, so only the Turks are in a real position to hit my homelands points.

I managed to limp along on 500 per year cashflow, get trading posts into Flanders and Lorraine and have just squeezed out another ship, so ports in Genoa (and Tuscany too, now) will link to the Eggies in Tunisia and just about pay for themselves (maint on Gulf of Gabes ship will be about 100pa).

I counted only 9 units of Swabians, spread in various places and, since someone mentioned they are Early-only, I splashed out on a couple more, while time allows.

Although I ought to be gunning for the Pope (kill him to end the war, then let him re-emerge so I can crusade), I decided the French stacks have to be dealt with first. They're not particularly threatening in terms of troop types, due to considerable stuffing with pez, but the numbers could still overwhelm anywhere where I leave too small a garrison. I can't divert forces to deal with the Pope until I knock these out first. I invaded Isle de France but they went to the castle instead of battling. The Papal warning has been issued but I think I will go for excom now, since I'm going to get that, for attacks on Papacy lands, anyway.

So many French went into Paris castle (&ringwall) that it says it will fall in a year. The dilemma is that I used top-quality troops and not enough 'disposable' units are around to incur the siege casualties, yet still hold off a sally. That's the point where I saved and I'm contemplating moving the entire assault force into Anjou, to take on two stacks there and prevent them pulling off the siege-lift, plus cutting off the Isle de France retreat path. That will leave just the French king's RKs, in Brittany, which shouldn't be too hard to tackle, barring 10 years' worth of siege. The whole thing feels like a risky operation because the English are still allied to them and could jump to their aid at any moment, reopening hostilities just in time for points year trouble again. Maybe I moved too soon?

I did finally have enough funds to complete the Horse Breeder in Swabia but forgot I also need the Armourer Workshop to get Feudal Knights from the Royal Estate. If I start now, it will complete in 1204, so I hope FK's are not another early-only unit. Trouble is, the building ost is, again, about half of what I have in the bank. With luck, the latest ship will speed up affordability somewhat.

EatYerGreens

10-03-2005, 22:37

I'm not sure why, but I pulled out of Isle de France on the following turn. The plan had been to push on into Anjou and just leave a handful of junk troops to take the siege casualty hit. I then realised that, whatever the outcome of a battle in Anjou, the 500+ French in the Castle could sally forth and push out my besiegers, leaving both Champagne and Lorraine weakly defended, with points year fast approaching. Much shuffling of troops would be required if things went wrong in this way and I'd not be able to hold Anjou anyway.

Coincidentally, one English unit appeared to move into IdF but, again my plan to set the two of them at war failed and I'm now at war with the English again, causing the Danish to cancel our treaty. Great. :dunce:

I'm not concerend about excom so I attack IdF again, the following year. Once more, there is no battle and they're back in the castle again. The plan was to inflict casualties and get some valour on my troops but a bloodless victory is supposedly the best kind, so I'll settle for that.

There is still the siege to tackle but I better positioning of redundant units (pex, UMs, unupgraded spears) allows me to put them in IdF while the 2 stacks of 'proper' attack troops head into English held Normandy. This was a nice twist, the intention being to prevent a siege lift and I can escape to Flanders if things go wrong. I didn't properly count their troop numbers but it was a pair of 1/2 or 3/4 stacks and it should have been one 5* general versus another. Pieces have been shuttling between Normandy and Aquitaine lately and I'm not sure if their general escaped, or not, but again there was no field battle and they only had a keep to retreat to. It appears that any excess over the 420 capacity (give or take cav) were 'evaporated' by this non-battle. ~:cool:

Surprisingly, the payoff is even better than that - the French fail to sally and a mere 300 junk troops of mine see most of the 500 trapped French - and their 3* RK general who could have made a mess of my 0* rabble by himself - rediced to a remnant of about equal size, that year. I had no intention of sitting out a siege in Normandy as well, so the big force returns to IdF, in time to see the castle fall, the following year. It had a ringwall, which was lost to damage but it meant the castle, only the second in my domain, was captured intact and the pillage bumped the treasury from its doldrums (~650) back up to 2000 or so. Good thing too, as I was soon in need of replacing some lost troops...

I killed yet another English king in that year. This time they decided Denmark would be a good place to pull off a seaborne attack. As well as the RK unit, they'd brought 40 mounted Serges, some broken infantry (12 FS and 20 Fyrdmen) and the rest were all archers. These fanned out across the field, threatening to get two angles on my position (displaced to the left of the map, with the beach further to the left). My 38 Mounted Serges opened things up by hitting a pair of exposed units in front of me but took too long tackling one unit and I only just turned them about to collect the English MtSg about to charge them in the rear. Mine routed but theirs got caught up against my infantry, which I marched over to where the action was. It was only a short slope but my men were fighting uphill, with their king on the top of it. I had a 43 man spear unit holding posiion but a 100-man unit was on the end of the line, further right and free to move around to rear-charge both his horse units. My single unit of archers engaged two of theirs which were now to my right-rear and held out well and drew fire away from my spearmen.

Their king was captured and I chased archer units in all sorts of directions. Disappointingly, the loss of their king was not enough to provoke a total rout. I think the lack of retreat path for them gives them a morale boost. When I stopped chasing, they kept rallying and resumed firing, so my forces were scattered and exhausted by this time. I gathered everyone together and hunkered down in the trees to sit out the archer fire. More units of theirs, including their infantry emerged from hiding and, even with tree-shelter, losses mounted and units kept wavering. My general had routed at one point, luckily on their end of the field, so he could be rallied.

Strictly speaking, this was a loss but hopes of large ransom plus construction of ballista towers was due to complete that year, so I held out for the time-limit win. It turned out to be 30 mins but seemed like an age. There was a second rout of my men. Some didn't stop but enough held in a second patch of trees to see them run out of arrows and begin to move away as the last seconds ticked out.

It's surprising just how hardy plain archers can be against very tired meleé troops who've suffered over 50% casualties. Not great fighters, by any means, but outnumbering penalties can count for a lot and it's morale which really wins these battles. Even their fragmentary infantry units had been a nuisance - repeatedly running away to draw my men out from the trees to be shot at, only to quickly rally as soon as I called off the chase to return to position. 60 UMs reduced to about 24 (routed off), two units of Viking Landsmen (one the general) each reduced to low teens, one FMAA (+1A) reduced to 24 men, 60 archers reduced to 21, 43 spears down to 13 (+valour) and 100 spears to 40-odd (wavering). Altogether not enough to properly see off what must have been 180-200 archers, sans ammo, if there had been no time limit, perhaps?

Ultimately, the ransom was unpaid, so another English king bit the dust. Only 83 captured but all the rest were 'lost' . Cheesy, I know, but I didn't want the dockyard smashed, which it would have been if I'd let them take this province and I'd fought to get it back.

I think that, if sea invasions are allowed, then sea evacuations should also be allowed, if the assault fails. Whatever boats are required to land troops on the beach, surely they should be there to enable escape?

EatYerGreens

10-06-2005, 02:28

Everyone lost interest in this now? dgfred, have you gone on holiday, all of a sudden? I'll carry on anyway, just for the heck of it. ~;)

Emperor Heinrich V's mostly peaceful (by which I mean not nearly so many battles to be fought, recently) reign comes to an end, in 1202, after an illness and Ludwig IV takes over.

In the same year, Edmund III, of England lands in Denmark, outnumbering us by 9:5. The broken remnants of the previous fight and some last minute troops moved in were simply not enough. I wasn't exactly expecting them back in such a hurry and decide to abandon it. I sit tight and wait for the points year, fetching another 13 for retaining all my homelands, 3 points for HRE goal and only 1 for conquest. It had been 2 but the loss of Denmark knocked it back again. The crusade points are gone for good now :embarassed: and the Crusade marker still sits in Franconia, awaiting the Pope's acceptance of ceasfire (some chance of that). Annoying that my leader should die when he did, as this recommunicated me and I hadn't got around to polishing him off in time.

I attack Denmark but follishly used my 4*, 8 Acumen Margrave of Tuscany (early RKs), only recently made Imperial Chamberlain, in preference to the 3* Viking Landsmen general who'd just abandoned it. It wasn't until I had committed to proceed and at the pre-battle screen that I appreciated a subtle change in VI.

Namely, the faction leader's RK units are magically updated to the High era type RK's. I went ahead regardless, as I had 2 early RK's in my force and thought that they could cope. The battlefield was awkward, with a pond in the centre and I had to edge my way around it to get at them. The battle looked to be one, with all of his foot troops sliced and diced, or busy routing off the field and just his RKs and a scattering of archer units left. My mounted serges go after the archers and I commit both RK's to attack the King. With remnants of spear units to pin and mounted xbows to shoot his men, it should have been a doddle.

At the last second, I see my gen's RK's run into one foot unit I'd not spotted. Possibly Fyrdmen but basically a bad idea to be running into spears when he was supposed to be charging their general. The pond restricts my maneuvers somewhat but I basically have to trap him between their side of the pond and their escape path. I suspect my gen's unit lost half his men in this contact, as well as the charge order failing to reach the English king's unit. The infantry unit vanishes and, before I know it, my gen and the other RK's are engaging him, along with maybe 4 other unit remnants of mine.

Next thing I know, my general is reported killed. Gah! Some units rout, some merely waver but, luckily, the meleé continues and, a minute or two later, he finally routes - forwards (towards my end of the map). 5 RKs from the second unit give chase and catch him in a patch of woods, so he's captured and it's all over.

Was it worth the loss of that general? Probably not - Tuscany was my best earning province, 900+ and I doubt I'll have a comparable replacement. Heavy casualties too (K:564 C:229 L:583).

There was an upside, in that Edmund III, plus one other Noble, fetched 11,479 in ransom - well over a decade's worth of current cashflow levels, so maybe I got my money's worth for that general after all, with a nice little kickstart to High era tech?

Now here's a nice little dilemma. The pond map was an unexpected complication, forcing time-wasting maneuvres I could have done without and I did basically botch up the battle orders, getting my general into danger when I thought all enemy spears were gone and taking on High era RKs with a pair of early era ones that basically weren't up to the job. If I'd attacked a year or two earlier, it would have been like-for-like.

I have a gamesave from just one year earlier, with that general still alive but restarting from there means I won't have the 11k in the bank. What would you do?

I decide to press on and get busy building, using all that loot but, this time, I'm not going to splurge it all at once. With a new governer and Chamberlain, cashflow was restored to around the 1000pa mark and I'm careful to stagger things like crop improvements, so that I'm not actually spending more than my annual cashflow on improvements and around 10k can be kept in reserve so that, when I think a big spend (Castle, Citadel) is required, I can go right ahead, instead of 'saving up' again.

The English relieve the siege in Denmark, outnumbering me with 1800+ to under 500 of mine. They don't stop there either - pushing into Saxony the following year.

The fall of Paris had given me an Archery Guild and I'd started to crank out some arbalesters for my river crossings, as soon as HIgh started. One was actually on its way to Brandenburg but was only able to reach Franconia in time for this expected attack. It would have been ideal.

The battle was a real thriller. My 3* general was up against a larger force, led by a 6* Urban Militia (valour 8!!!!). I lose all sense of time in long battles but I'd opened with three units of archers and a catapult and enough time passed for them to run out of ammo, be sent off the field, 3 more archers come on and finish most of their ammo too. Their general FINALLY got killed but must have taken a good 5-10 mins for him to die (couldn't catapult him without taking out my own men). That was the turning point and I had to order my chasing FMAA to stop and come back, when their cat (valour 4) started returning fire. It was then just a matter of cycling through their reinforcements.

So the battle is basically won and I was twiddling my thumbs, no further fighting to do, just waiting. I double clicked on an archer unit icon because I thought I'd told it to withdraw but it's 'marching' indicator wasn't showing. The camera pans backwards to the rear end of the field and is pointing slightly up in the air. I click on the ground to pan down but the marker is red, so I'm right at the very edge.

Suddenly, the game quits to the *&^%*&& desktop, for no reason!! :furious3:

I think I've calmed down now but that was the end of the session for the night. I'm going to have to sit through the whole episode all over again - and there's no guarantee things will pan out in exactly the same way this time.

It's not like it was a 6-hour battle against the Horde which went tits-up but this general was a real menace to my entire northern region and I was very pleased to have bumped him off with my badly battered unit remnants and 3* versus 6* was taking a risk, to put it mildly. Chances are, next time, he'll get away. Grrr.

(I have the screenies but they need to be processed and uploaded, which may come later - casualties bar was about 2:1 in my favour).

Geezer57

10-06-2005, 02:53

Everyone lost interest in this now? dgfred, have you gone on holiday, all of a sudden? I'll carry on anyway, just for the heck of it. ~;)
Well, I'm one that hasn't lost interest in your narrative - please keep up with it (for my own enjoyment, if nothing else!).

Suddenly, the game quits to the *&^%*&& desktop, for no reason!! :furious3:

I find on my machine that this happens most often when I've left the machine on for several days without a reboot to freshen it up. Now, if I plan a long MTW session, I shut the machine down for a minute and cold-boot it. Seems to minimize the sudden CTD's.

EatYerGreens

10-06-2005, 03:25

Many thanks for your continued interest. Like I said, I was going to carry on, regardless. ~;)

With regard to the CTD, still unsure as to the cause. I was getting a lot of these earlier in the year but I tried taking the side-panel off (destop tower case) to get better ventilation, when the summer heat was beginning to take its toll. General PC overheat makes the fans rev up but, when that's not enough, it sets off the CPU-protection cut-out on the motherboard and causes a complete reboot of the machine. Annoying in mid-game but better than a dead PC, I suppose. With the side panel off, these stopped completely.

It's turned colder, of late, so I'd left the side panel on and, only when I was back at the desktop, I realised how fast the fans were running, again. I'm wondering if it was overheating localised to the gfx card but I think it unlikely as I have slot-mounted cooling fan right next to it.

The last time I had a mid-battle CTD/reboot it was again with the enemy king/general captured or dead, the battle mostly won and just tidying up, then I click on a unit icon to do something with it and <<boom>>!

So, the camera being practically off the edge of the map is the only clue I have for this latest one but the common feature seems to be clicking on unit icons. Could be one of those bugs that just doesn't happen often enough to have its cause tracked down.

I'm off to do 'take 2' on this battle. :duel: :charge:

ajaxfetish

10-06-2005, 04:22

I'm still listening, too. ~:)

I love the incredible level of detail in your narratives.

ajax

cegman

10-06-2005, 04:39

I am listening to you.

yesdachi

10-06-2005, 04:44

Everyone lost interest in this now?
No chance! Cant wait to see the screenies!~D

Roark

10-06-2005, 06:41

Still reading the thread with enthusiasm, guys. ~:cheers:

It just flows better when we don't interrupt with posts that say little more than "pwned!!" or "OMFG!!"....

dgfred

10-06-2005, 15:41

I've been here the entire time~;) , lurking closely~:cool: . I too would enjoy
some pics if possible.

I've also started a new HRE campaign/Hard/GA/Early and will let you know if
anything of interest comes up. Right now it is 1100 and the French are
getting on my last nerve, I have to keep a large garrison in Lorraine to keep
them off my back. Usually I knock out the Danes by now but the aggressive
French have not allowed my usual game play. I have keeps already in Switz,
Swabia and a couple more just about finished, one in Saxony. I'll let y'all
know what happens.

Ludens

10-06-2005, 17:14

I am reading too; please continue!

BTW, there is a known bug with troops getting stuck on the edge of the map while retreating (usually because of trees) but I have never seen it combine with a CTD. I am at a total loss what happened here.

Matty

10-07-2005, 08:34

You don't seem the kind of fellow seeking solace and comfort in a re-load EYG. Ban them and take your casualties like a man!

EatYerGreens

10-08-2005, 00:24

You don't seem the kind of fellow seeking solace and comfort in a re-load EYG. Ban them and take your casualties like a man!

I didn't get any choice about the reload - I'm talking about a crash to desktop before the battle was actually finished, so the result didn't register at all.

Just for the record, I did not make any additional troop moves into the province, now that I knew an attack was coming. Reloading AND adding extra defenders is pure cheese, IMHO.

Of course, in the retake, it gave me a different map - two bridges this time, causing me to change my initial deployment slightly - and they brought a larger number of troops.

Things didn't pan out so well, their Clansmen broke through the 'plug' defence this time, chasing some units off to well behind my main position until they were off the map and my reinforcements were mostly junk troops or ones with under 10 men, so not of much use. I started with 41 spears plugging the other bridge but the AI initially ignored that bridge and I called them over. Lo and behold, some RK's come on in their reinforcements and actually use the second bridge. They were on my side of the field before I spotted the threat. I polish them off with archers, mounted xbows and some half-size units of mounted sergeants but it distracted my attention and, before know it, my man are routing and they are over the bridge in force. We rally but more reinforcements are streaming in and the outnumbering is beginning to tell. My archers are out of ammo, theirs are still firing. My reinforcements waver and begin to rout just at the mere sight of the enemy. Gah!

Now I basically won this battle the first time around, so I feel entirely justified in reloading and doing it again until I get that result. The third time is a single bridge but yet another map (the first one allowed my catapult some height advantage, which wasn't in this one), lukily with a similar bend in the river, to the left of the bridge, giving a patch of ground handy for positioning achers on, so they're almost side-on to the bridge.

The enemy numbers were now more like what they used the first time (interesting that the AI doesn't make exactly the same moves, given identical conditions) and the 'right' result was ultimately achieved.

There was a fun part where they'd stopped attacking and their RK unit halted about 20 yards back, just where the downslope starts. Twenty or so archers stood in front of them and I heard arrow shooting noises but none of my units had an under-fire icon showing, so these were all missing. Seems they were actually waiting for more units to come up behind them and there was a brief charge but it never broke through my spears. In the meantime, my Mounted xbows had arrived and I sat them on the bulge in the riverbank and set them shooting the knights. They only killed about three but, once they turned and ran, being an elite unit, they carried away all the rabble behind them.

Earlier still, there was a point where there was fighting at my end of the bridge but a unit of my FS's had somehow pushed right through their frontline and were now halfway along the bridge, fighting about 5 lots of archers. Hope I took a screenie of that one and may post it later.

Once again, their 5* general got himself killed, so I was satisfied that a result similar to the original battle was achieved.

BTW, there is a known bug with troops getting stuck on the edge of the map while retreating (usually because of trees) but I have never seen it combine with a CTD. I am at a total loss what happened here.

This did happen again, funnily enough. It showed as 16 archers, with the movement arrow flashing on and off. I was concerened at first, thinking they'd been caught in meleé, or shot up without me realising but it was actually one I'd withdrawn and all 60 were present when back on the strategy map. I may have even done the same click to move camera trick as before but this time it didn't crash, when I realised in time what was happening and I clicked to view something else.

I guess it's intensely annoying to win a battle but be stuck in a loop like this - hitting the Esc key is counted as a defeat, isn't it? Normally, it should be okay because the unit gets into a routing state before it hits the map edge and, as long as all of a side's units are routing simultaneously, the battle is officially over. It's only when the AI has set the unit to withdraw and it gets stuck that it can happen.

Maybe if you can get enough men close enough (outnumbering penalty on morale has a range to it but you can only get your units so close to the edge, looking like 50 metres to me), or put it under missile fire to tip it over the edge into rout.

Lesson #27 - always keep at least one unit of archers in reserve, with 'fire at will' switched off until you find a worthwhile target.

EatYerGreens

10-08-2005, 02:22

Thanks for all the notes of appreciation. It's just that the thread suddenly went 'dead', even when I'd finished a post with a question, so I thought people had lost interest. I'm glad to hear otherwise.

By way of an update, much has happened, to the point where I'll have to flick through hundreds of screenies just to remind myself what happened when. (The sheer number of screenies I've taken is the reason why I never get around to posting them - it takes ages to pick one worth showing and I have to process an entire batch before I can upload anything. If I throw any away before I've converted the events into written form, I lose track of the story. This all takes a lot of time, which I'd rather spend playing the game itself).

In brief, the English defeat in Saxony saw them bring yet more troops into Denmark, uncluding their king at one point. Having lost several rulers and having to pay a fortune to get Edmund III back, this time they leave me be, for a change. My first unit of arbalesters (from Guild captured in Paris) only arrived the year after the battle but seemed to have the required deterrent effect. The remaining arbs carried on to the river crossings at Brandenberg and Silesia, as originally planned. Another two went to Burgundy and Provence, so I'm spoilt for river densive places at the moment.

However, not content with adding Denmark to their North Sea trading retinue, they got greedy and ploughed straight into Sweden. I had no agents there but I recalled that the Danish re-emergence army was not far away. Within a couple of turns, Denmark was back in the hands of its rightful owners and my chances to recapture that dockyard for my own North Sea fleet will have to wait for quite some time now. The port was smashed too, so I'll soon find out if they're broke, when it fails to be repaired. The Danes were neutral to me at this point. I have to maintain the large force in Saxony, against possible English sea invasions and also the large armies in Pomerania but the Danes also seemed to think better than to take me on at the river and settled for an alliance very quickly.

Things have been rather dynamic on the other side of the eastern border, with Byzantine and Turkish armies slugging it out. Some lands have changed hands four or five times now but, ultimately, the Turks got hold of everything as far north as Pomerania. My reconnaisance is a bit sketchy but Novgorod were cornered into Finland, initially by the Byz but I think all that is now in Turkish hands too. I have near full stacks facing them in Saxony, Brandenberg, Silesia and Bohemia but I keep a nervous watch on Austria, guarded by just 120 UM's in a fort. For whatever reason, they leave me alone - just looking at their armies tells me I'm going to get trampled if I so much as assist the Byz by lifting a siege or similar. Besides, my provinces are making 400-500 per year, whilst Poland and Hungary are generating 900+ each, not that they are wanting for cash right now. :dizzy2:

Meanwhile, I was unable to get to grips with the pope as I was tied down all along my west, facing the French and English. The French 5* general in Anjou could attack in various directions, so I couldn't adopt the 'hub defence' system properly and had to keep full stacks in every province. They simply had to be taken out. On the plus side, their troops were outdated and maybe 400 of their strength was peasants. I attacked at about 1000:1400+, confortable that this would be more like 1:1. The map starts with having to climb a steep hill, and they defended so far back that none of them showed on the 'radar' until I was up on the plateau. I had gone left and they were lurking in the right, making the most of the corner.

I turned my force to face them, then shuffled into position, such that a spear unit on the left of my main line was tucked into some trees and hidden. I'd brought 2 merc hobilars, 12 men and 7 men, 7 Mounted Sergeants and 1 Gothic Knight, all of which had racked up some valour. The French had a barrel load of archers so the idea was to make a probing attack with these broken horse units, chop up a few, maybe draw them out but basically get maximum mileage out of these horsemen before getting them off the map by being routed, killed or captured. I'd then roll in my reinforcements before engaging fully. I send them to nibble at the end of their archer line closest to the map edge, with remarkable effectiveness. One of the Hobilars at least routed the right way, back to my main line.

I'd only just marched my archers through my infantry line to begin firing back when I suddenly find some (mixed Early and High) RK's coming after them. My archers skirmish back and luckily, the knights crash into an exposed unit of spears, who hold well. The unit which was in the trees is now charged into their side. I don't know if all the knights were killed or not. If they routed, they would have carried away all the lesser troops to their rear. In any case, the Swabian Swords, on the right of my line had been able to charge forward unhindered by the knight meleé and chop up what little infantry they'd brought with them. The results later showed two units had killed over 100 men each but were reduced to less than 10 men themselves. (They're no longer trainable in High, so it's as well I stocked up in time).

My reinforcements had a long walk to reach the action, likely arriving too late to be involved. Even the 9 Teutonic Sergeants, leftover from a loyalist rebellion early in the game made a reappearance. I set them to chase some archers which had moved to a forward position to fire on my flanks. They didn't make contact but the archers found themselves set upon by foot units from 3 other directions instead. The mounted xbows were also fast enough to reach the far rear edge of the map where all the fighting had been but I couldn't find anything for them to fire at. I was expecting about 8 or 9 units or reinforcements to be dealt with but I reckon they never even appeared.

Not a good day for the French and not exactly a fair fight in terms of troop match-ups but, if you've got 8 archer units with you, to not take advantage of this huge slope I had to climb and shoot your attacker to bits before they're anywhere near inflicting any damage on you is a cardinal error. Corner-camping just won't cut it (if anything, the corner was in a slight hollow, so my men had a slight downhill advantage there).

Their 5* general is trapped in the keep, their 1* King has only a 3/4 stack in Brittany and, this time, the English don't lift a finger to raise the siege. Anjou is mine and I leave them to stew in Brittany for the rest of the game.

EDIT: Checked my screenies and the above paragraph has muddled the facts. I'd attacked a few years before, they rereated to the castle, trapping this general in the keep. They lifted the siege the following year (I moved my crack attack troops out and stuck spears, peasants and catapults in for the siege attrition phase, no match for a king and three other RK units, amongst about 1800 attackers) and this battle is one or two years later. END OF EDIT

Actually, the English were a bit preoccupied, further south. The re-emerged Spanish got themselves allied to me at some point. They ignored all my requests but eventually offered a princess, frustratingly just a couple of years after my emperor had done the 'marry the aristos daughter' trick. That was after they'd grabbed Aquitaine from the English. Before long, they'd been beaten back and finally eliminated. I did have plans to take lightly held (English) Normandy, after Anjou, but the English offered a ceasfire now the Danes were on my side and I accepted. They are now embroiled in some heavy fighting with the Almos and I think the Almos have taken Aquitaine themselves. This confines the English southern holdings to Aragon and Toulouse. Good luck to them.

All of this goings on has given me opportunity to rattle through a large number of turns in quick succession, with no battles to fight. I'd promised myself to keep 10,000 in reserve but it all got burnt. Of all things, it was the Children's Crusade which messed things up for me. It affects farm output in 'Germany and France', so basically all of my holdings. I'd literally just completed an extra two 40% farms, with 2 more to follow when this thing sent me from +900 per year, to -250 (in spite of the brand new farm improvements). I had to disband some of my 'trash troops' to get back to breakeven and eat into reserves to get more ships and farms rolled out. Things finally settle down at about 1000pa cashflow but, again, back to below 2000 in the bank. Come to think of it, this crisis was what galvanised me into taking Anjou, which helped bump the income back up.

So infrastructure is improving but far slower than I'd have liked. I did finally get a keep built in Saxony, so a port and shipbuilder should soon follow. Peace with the English at least gives good prospects for trade with just a single ship in the North Sea.

I've started another in Tuscany, which is already trading but a second shipbuilder in the Med is vital to survival if sea combat kicks off - replacing attrition and so forth. This also allows me to leave a small garrison in place once I'm ready - finally - to take on the Pope. Rather than mobilise for thi snow, I want to use the cashflow for infratrustructure, while I still can. Then another Emporer dies in his early 60's, after a short reign beginning at age 47. His replacement isn't even 20 and he'll be a long time excommed if he does anything now. Get the happiness virtues first, I think. ~;)

I finish the session with what might have been a stupid decision. The Turks offer me an alliance but this will declare my long-standing alliance with the Byzantines invalid. I've refused them a few times before but this time I accept, as the alternative seems to be to be crushed by the richest, most teched, largest armies faction in the game. The points for 1225 came in, with me still in the lead but the Turks only 4 points behind. If homelands go, that situation will rapidly reverse.

I'm asking for trouble since the Byz have several stacks in Venice. They could have trampled me at any time they liked but dutifully let me be and now I stab them in the back. ~:eek: I think a little pieve of me still wants to have a battle against them in this campaign, before they get themselves completely wiped out. Oddly enough, I have never gone up against the Byz in any campaign to date, so it would be a shame to miss the opportunity once more. Then again, I may have bitten off more than I can chew. My HRE could collapse at any moment, just as things were getting interesting, so stay tuned....

EDIT Reason:- Factual corrections, after rechecking screenies, posted in subsequent message, plus various spelling errors.

EatYerGreens

10-08-2005, 10:41

Time for some pics now. I've used URL links in the hope that the images can be viewed at full size and generally help the thread page load quickly, as there is quite a selection here.

Firstly, the Saxony battle which crashed to desktop.... note the numbers ratio and check out the valour level on their UM general!
Saxony Pre-Battle Screen (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0688.jpg)

Early stages of the battle. The jutting riverbank I tried to describe can be seen,to the left of the bridge.

View 1 (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0608.jpg)

A slightly different angle. The Enemy general is killed.
View 2 (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0609.jpg)

A reverse view, showing the positions of my units. The enemy are in flight and the kills ratio shows 3:2 in my favour. This was the last shot taken before the CTD, so there is no final result screen and the casualty count is unknown.

View 3 (i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0610.jpg)

Reloaded from last quicksave. I make no troop moves but the English bring more troops this time (I omitted to take a pre-battle screenshot, not expecting what happened next). Note the change in battle map, this time with two bridges. The AI sneaked some RK's over that second bridge... after I'd removed a half-unit of spears to help in the main fight.

Saxony Take 2 - Results view (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0612.jpg)

Reloaded again. Still no troop moves and this time the English bring similar numbers to the first time. Yet another map - one bridge but flatter terrain, giving my missiles less reach across the river. My catapult was placed on my right this time and I may have misjudged the range, as it was unable to target units on the far bank properly. It ended up shooting across the bridge, into the main meleé and missed most of the time, shots hitting the jutting part of the riverbank on my side. It even killed about 5 of my FMAA who were standing idle, yards from the fighting, to the right of my end of the bridge.

Once again, we trap and kill their general...

Saxony Take 3 - View 1 (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0618.jpg)

We watch the enemy turn tail and run. Under the min-map speed bar, you can just see my 15 Mounted crossbows (another 22 at extreme left) and 5 dead knights lie on the bridge, part of their last-ditch push. The unit of 16 archers in the icon strip is actually a full unit of 60, stuck whilst withdrawing.

Take 3 View 2 (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0619.jpg)

The final results. Nice to see a vanilla archer unit rack up 100 kills, for no losses but, oddly, got no valour boost out of it.

Take 3 - View 3 (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0620.jpg)

EDIT: New posting interface has a glitch - 'Insert link' no longer offers a description prompt and manual editing of the URL code entry did not work either.
EDIT 2: The part of the URL code entry inside inverted commas (which I'd meddled with) is the link itself and what looks like a duplicate of it is what you should edit to make the description part. Links to images should now work.

EatYerGreens

10-08-2005, 11:09

Ahh, so this is how you make link descriptions work! (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0741.jpg)

Current state of the GA points and the Hanseatic league goal is shown, along with its description. It shows all 6 pips lit up for me (in the right hand parchment but not the one on the left) but I don't know why - I have no north sea ports yet but I do have trading posts in the appropriate coastal provinces.
GA Points (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0741.jpg)

State of the Empire, taken a few years back.

The Empire groweth.... (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0715.jpg)

Mug-shot of the Emperor, taken a while back. He came to the throne at age 16 and is now Influence 6. The Treasury is low but cashflow is enough to get significant builds started every year. Attacks have abated, so no troops have had to be mobilised for quite some time.

The Inn in Bavaria only ever got us two units of Rus spears which seemed to give deterrent value on the eastern front but otherwise saw no action. Having burnt a hole in the pocket for a century or so, they were disbanded after the cashflow dipped steeply, after the Children's Crusade and replaced with Feudal Sergeants. Peace or neutrality at a border leaves Inns rather empty. The Inn in Tuscany, by contrast, is packed with goodies as soon as it's built, as we are on a war footing with the Pope, over the border. This shot shows one of the two Organ guns we've picked up. Can't wait to try these out, especially as gunpowder has yet to be invented. Arquebusiers were available too but that borders on cheesy and, besides, I like to fight against archer-heavy armies in the rain, when I can...

Herrmann the Gerrmann (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0729.jpg)

EatYerGreens

10-08-2005, 11:28

Invasion of Anjou, Pre-Battle Screen (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0688.jpg)

In this one, you should be able to make things out from the 'radar-map', where we were allowed to climb the steep slope unopposed, up the left side of the map, then turned to face them, skulking in the upper right corner.

The Scene of the French Knights demise and their General just had to stick his oar (polearm) in. (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0689.jpg)

The final result...

And the winner is.... (https://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Macrembolitissa/GerH60_0690.jpg)

That Teutonic Sergeants unit has been kicking around since appearing in a Loyalist revolt in Lorraine, in 1096. There were 9 of them after the most recent battle before this and I don't remember how they went down to 8, other than maybe the unit leader died of old age (he had V&Vs on him) or they were at a siege. This is possibly their third blank sheet but they successfully scared off the last of the French archers here. Their grand tally is K:240 C:465 L:31, in 9 battles. Not bad for a 'freebie' unit.

yesdachi

10-08-2005, 16:08

Great stuff EYG,thanks! i want to comment on a few things but dont have the time right now, i will later but thanks for the great update!~:)

yesdachi

10-11-2005, 19:31

Hey EYG, I finally got a few minutes to respond. This will be in no particular order.

FK are available in all time periods. Not sure why thou they are a bit obsolete after a while.

You mentioned “bloodless victory” do you know if it counts as a victory for # of victories to reach another promotion in rank/*’s?

I am sure it’s my video card but I crash to desktop after or during battles about 25% of the time, I totally sympathize with your crash situation. Its one of the reasons I autocalc a lot, but I do fight the ones I think will be fun or critical and re-fight them if I crash.

Have you been producing much siege equipment? It is always a weakness in my armies, just wondering if you use them much?

Having the Byz sitting there in Venice with 3 stacks is a bit scary but I find that they fall asleep after early, I am curious to see what they do, if anything. Maybe they will just sit tight until you have those sweet Goth units and can boot them out.~:cool:

Hats off for the way you seem to be managing your cash. :bow: You seem to be keeping things pretty balanced with troops and infrastructure. The children’s crusade caught me sleeping in my game. I always see it happen but as I am never the HRE I don’t usually take it into consideration until now. It was kind of interesting that there was an event that had a major impact and I was not expecting it, not like the coming of the Mongols.

Nice images, that overall empire one is my fav! ~:cheers:

lugh

10-12-2005, 12:03

@eyg Good stuff! It's about keeping me from chewing fingers off from MTW-withdrawal. (comp still in the repair shop :furious3: )

FK are available in all time periods. Not sure why thou they are a bit obsolete after a while.
Heh, keep an eye on them throughout the High era, get 'em nicely valoured up and they'll still munch an awful lot of stuff up. Same thing for FMAA.-

Current state of the GA points and the Hanseatic league goal is shown, along with its description. It shows all 6 pips lit up for me (in the right hand parchment but not the one on the left) but I don't know why - I have no north sea ports yet but I do have trading posts in the appropriate coastal provinces.
It's control of the trade not neccacarily trading exclusively. I'd guess if the other northern powers are forced to trade to you (by not having extensive trading links) then you still effectively control the trade.
just my E0.02

EatYerGreens

10-12-2005, 14:44

Apologies to all and sundry for the lack of updates. I saved at 1229 a few days ago and you know what comes next, heh heh. I think the previous report covers everything up to that save point.

Every now and then I reach a 'crunch' point, where I know something significant needs to be done on the next turn, like a huge battle but I have to leave it until later. Many's the battle I've totally botched up by pressing on but being too tired to concentrate. I wasn't that clear-headed the following day, either, so I let myself get distracted, didn't I? (as my stack of postings in the modding forum will testify) :sneaky:

Fear not, I shall get back to this game soon. I've been having a giggle running my modded game to check for crashes. (Sahara has been enabled and I gave it to the Almos, to have a corner to back into, like Arabia for the Eggies.

Anyway, it ran reliably from early right up to the late 1200's, with me stopping it every so often to tinker with the build/train queues of a faction and then fast-forwarding again. I kept swapping sides and when I got to the Byz, they had cash in the bank, decent castles everywhere but only 20% farms in some places and a disjointed ship network. I soon sorted that out but was delighted to find a nice selection of valoured up spies and assassins for me to do some mishchief with. (Border Forts given Marshal's Palace as a pre-requisite, LOL)

It did finally CTD on me though. It kept clustering its ships (as if in self-defence) but breaking the ship lanes and cutting it's income in half. I picked one ship up to move it and still had the mouse button pressed when it went boom.

I'll save the details of this mod for another thread but I put it together to generally experiment with stuff. I must say the autobuild & autotrain units/agents doesn't do as bad a job as I thought but, in the early years, it runs the treasury down into the low hundreds and some factions go deep into the red building keeps and ignoring the income side. That was partly down to me - as well as adding Sahara, I implemented the way farm upgrades are set out on the tech tree so that you can't advance to the next level of farms until the next size castle is built.

Novgorod got big (but I'd given them land access from Finland into Sweden) until the Horde barged in, naturally. The Horde waxed and waned, currently back down to three provs. The Byz are the richest and most teched but the Hungarians have the biggest military might. They're squeezing France right now. HRE is in pieces. Spain have reconquista'd but are now province swapping with the Almos, who bounced back from Spain's crusade (which I saw come through Byz-held Georgia, Syria, Palestine, then went west - destination Algeria! How the heck did they manage that???) Egypt alive but crushed, as are Poland, Italy and the Pope. England is still going (Flanders/Wessex bridge is closed) but both they and the Danes have been in unbelievable debt... since about 1120. ~:eek:

You mentioned “bloodless victory” do you know if it counts as a victory for # of victories to reach another promotion in rank/*’s?

A one-star general ought to go to up to two stars on their second victory (1,2,4,8,16 etc) but I saw an example of this not happening (HRE campaign) when the other side auto-retreated, or went to the castle. In Shogun, each general has a tally (Fought, won, lost, rank) on their info parchment and they did get due credit for winning a province, even though no battle was fought. The emphasis seems to be the other way around in this game.

Re: Feudal Knights.

Heh, keep an eye on them throughout the High era, get 'em nicely valoured up and they'll still munch an awful lot of stuff up. Same thing for FMAA.-

I haven't actually trained any yet. I know them well, from multiplayer but don't think I've ever used them in a campaign before. The maintainance is rather steep though. I reckon four units would wipe out my entire cashflow, unless I get my fleets growing soon.

Watching this high-speed campaign has whtted the taste buds again, so I hope to have more to report soon.