Pentagon 9-11

[barocca]

could someone be so kind as to explain these two sites to me

a boeing? what boeing? (view the flash presentation) (http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/)

and

the invisible boeing (http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm)

can anyone provide photo's to refute the allegations on these sites?

this is in the news here in Oz, local muslim leaders have called into question what really happened at the Pentagon, and by inference are wondering were all the events of 9-11-2001 staged?

I do not for one second imagine US would launch such an attack on itself,
i think the attacks happened almost the way we have been told,
but i think the pentagon was kamikaze'd by a US air force fighter and the Gov. will not admit it simply because that would be devestating to morale,
so did flight 77 really exist?
and if so what happened to it? because, so far as i can find, it sure dont look like a 757 hit the Pentagon.


so what really happened?

B.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Please smack anyone who suggests September 11 was staged for me.

Where would the fighter jet have gone, too?

And wouldn't it have left a bigger mark, if it was going at even a decent speed?

(If it was staged:) why the Pentagon? A really important building? Why not something less vital?

And of course, can you trust the websites making these claims?

[Strike For The South]

Here is some linkage that should clear it up LINKAGE (http://snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm)

[Ser Clegane]

Here is Snopes' take on the issue (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm).

EDIT: I need to type more quickly ~;) GAH!

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Please smack anyone who suggests September 11 was staged for me.

Where would the fighter jet have gone, too?

And wouldn't it have left a bigger mark, if it was going at even a decent speed?

(If it was staged:) why the Pentagon? A really important building? Why not something less vital?

And of course, can you trust the websites making these claims?
Enough said.

[Don Corleone]

could someone be so kind as to explain these two sites to me

a boeing? what boeing? (view the flash presentation) (http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/)

and

the invisible boeing (http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm)

can anyone provide photo's to refute the allegations on these sites?

this is in the news here in Oz, local muslim leaders have called into question what really happened at the Pentagon, and by inference are wondering were all the events of 9-11-2001 staged?

I do not for one second imagine US would launch such an attack on itself,
i think the attacks happened almost the way we have been told,
but i think the pentagon was kamikaze'd by a US air force fighter and the Gov. will not admit it simply because that would be devestating to morale,
so did flight 77 really exist?
and if so what happened to it? because, so far as i can find, it sure dont look like a 757 hit the Pentagon.


so what really happened?

B.

I understand that there's a large population of people out there that so hate the United States, they'll do anything, say anything they can to make certain that they have a way to blame the United States for whatever happened. It's sad to see that they're in Australia and here in the Backroom. As Ser Clegnane has said, this theory has been out since 9/11 and has been debunked many, many times. Despite the wonderful background music & the underplay of Hitler's speeches in the soundtrack, it's a damnable lie created by people that hate the US. In propagating it, you show yourself to count among them. Regardless of your thoughts on Bush, the US government, or Americans in general, don't you think that as the administrator for this site, you owe it to at least publish credible lies?

[Shottie]

Read this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566565529/qid=1126369801/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-5639666-5425615?v=glance&s=books



This opened my eyes to what really happened. I'm not saying I agree with it because if there is a problem I agree to both sides but it really does question what really happened that day.

[Zharakov]

Ha ha... The Pentagone was hit by a Soviet ICBM... ~D

[barocca]

I understand that there's a large population of people out there that so hate the United States, they'll do anything, say anything they can to make certain that they have a way to blame the United States for whatever happened. It's sad to see that they're in Australia and here in the Backroom. As Ser Clegnane has said, this theory has been out since 9/11 and has been debunked many, many times. Despite the wonderful background music & the underplay of Hitler's speeches in the soundtrack, it's a damnable lie created by people that hate the US. In propagating it, you show yourself to count among them. Regardless of your thoughts on Bush, the US government, or Americans in general, don't you think that as the administrator for this site, you owe it to at least publish credible lies?i think you can imagine where i would tell you to put that attitude, and if not Then i will gladly provide a torch (suitably lubriucated) so you can look for the location.
I do not for one second imagine US would launch such an attack on itself
can anyone provide photo's to refute the allegations on these sites?Try READING my post please before you launch into a self righteous crusade and make allegations against me that are clearly FALSE.


the sites i linked to are in the news HERE AND NOW in Oz

the links you guys are providing ARE NOT in the news

keep giving me links to debunk the theory and i WILL pass them on to the newspapers here that are mentioning this conspiracy theory,

my speculations, well, they are just my speculations on the stuff we have seen here so far

this is the backroom,
it's where we air junk like this and NOTE : i did ask for people to debunk it for me

B.

[Don Corleone]

What evidence, besides the Hitler speech soundtrack, do your sites offer that haven't been presented and refuted earlier? Just because it's been republished someplace new doesn't make it any more true, or any less hateful.

[Adrian II]

What evidence, besides the Hitler speech soundtrack, do your sites offer that haven't been presented and refuted earlier? Just because it's been republished someplace new doesn't make it any more true, or any less hateful.Don, will you stop this please? Barocca is asking for information on a subject he has only just been confronted with, and he makes it clear that he doesn't buy nonsense about the U.S. government orchestrating the thing. Can you just give him a break? We can't all be as brilliantly informed on current affairs as you are, so please forgive us mortals would you?

[Don Corleone]

Sure Adrian. Whatever you say. If you guys want to engage in half-baked conspiracy theories that consider "who was behind 9/11", be my guest. I went through both of his sites, which was where the crack that I made about the Hitler speeches came from. Yes, it's really the soundtrack to that flash video. None of the so called 'evidence' presented is new, it all comes from Thierry Meyssan. It's just presented by new people with new soundtracks. I have nothing else to say other than I have a lot less respect for you all than I did an hour ago.

[CBR]

Barocca why do you hate America?


CBR

[Adrian II]

If you guys want to engage in half-baked conspiracy theories that consider "who was behind 9/11", be my guest.Just read Barocca's post, Don. He is asking if anybody out here can tell him where to find the best antidote to the disease, and all you do is accuse him of spreading the disease. And now I'm guilty of that too?

[AntiochusIII]

Barocca is just asking for information, is he not?

He said there's an Aussie media (or more?) that is/are showing it, publishing it, etc.

He said he doesn't buy that at all, but still want some more information about it and therefore post a thread in the backroom.

What are you angry about? ~:confused:

[Adrian II]

Barocca why do you hate America?


CBRHello, what is it with you, my friends? Is it something in the water? Barocca is asking us how best to debunk a conspiracy. Instead of getting some useful answers he is being accused of promoting it. You guys are 'seeing things', I tell you.
:dizzy2:

[CBR]

Sorry I forgot the ~;)


CBR

[Adrian II]

Sorry I forgot the ~;)


CBR :bow:

[Proletariat]

How stupid do you have to be to believe this non-sense?

We can't even evacuate a city that was about to get a dose from Mother Nature, yet our Govt is savvy enough to pull this off?

Serious. I think you'd have to be about three genes from being a monkey to give this a second thought.

Please let us know about what kind of responses you receive (if any) from the papers about this, barroca. I'm pretty curious. I wouldn't wrap a goldfish in anything that actually propagated this pure idiocy.

(Don, lighten up! From post one he disassociated himself from the nutjobs that are spreading this foolishness.)

[Don Corleone]

Maybe I can use another touchy subject to express to you why this has me so offended...

What follows is satire. I in no way espouse the theories mentioned and find them offensive and dangerous. I am attempting to describe how these 9/11 consipiracies come across to me in terms you might actually understand

Hey guys, I was just surfing around the web, and I found this interesting new website. I'd heard about it in the news, and apparently, it's got quite a following.

Anyway, there's this Brittish author, David Irving, who wrote an important book. In it, he shows that while yes, some Germans did kill some Jews, this whole notion that there was an organized campaign by the Nazis to kill Jews has been deliberately overblown, to make the case for the creation of Israel.

Now, I have no issues with Jews. I don't think they invented the holocaust, but Irving raises some good points that I haven't heard answered yet. Does anyone want to join me in a rational discussion about how the Jews didn't really suffer all that bad during the holocaust?

[Adrian II]

Does anyone want to join me in a rational discussion about how the Jews didn't really suffer all that bad during the holocaust? [/I]You are misstating Barocca's question. He doesn't want a discussion of whether the U.S. was really hit on 9/11. He wants to know if anyone can help him find out about the details. Not you, apparently.

[Redleg]

Ser Clegane has already provided the link to Snoopes

barocca The video in your first link is just a new package on the same old conspricary about the United States Government causing the crash that hit the pentagon. Snoopes take on it is still valid.


Same thing as your second link - all the information in both links were circulated across the internet within 3 monthes of the 9-11 attacks. It seems that some knuckleheads in your part of the world have decided to resurface it.

It should be discounted as the progaganda that it obviousily is.

[Don Corleone]

Excuse me Adrian. Allow me to alter the last line of my satire.

Now, many people are claiming that the Jews did die in large numbers, but they were killed by their own leadership. I don't believe that, I figure there must have been some crazed jew who went among them and killed them off. Maybe I'm even wrong and it just might have been the Nazis. Anyone care to discuss it?

[Adrian II]

Excuse me Adrian. Allow me to alter the last line of my satire.You better swallow it whole, Don. You have yet to prove that Barocca is spreading lies. If you can't, you had better apologise.

[Redleg]

Don

As a person who also tends to over-react to certain statements - let me state while I to found it offensive that some knucklehead in Australia was again spreading the same bad propaganda about the Pentagon that has been debunk numerous times - you are indeed over-reacting to barroca's question.

He did ask this question

can anyone provide photo's to refute the allegations on these sites?

now he should be able to ask such a question without getting attack. If he wishes to discount the information provided by Ser Clegane with his link to Snoopes - well then shame on him to falling for old proganda in a brand new wrapping. But barroca has said he discounted the information - only that it was not making the news in his area of the world.

Cut him some slack - and if you can not apologize for over-reacting (which I would not find fault with you at all for) at least stop taking insult at his question.

[Don Corleone]

I thought the Snopes website did just that. If you really expect me to go through that piece of filth video with the Hitler speeches and document each claim they make and refute them one by one, you've got another thing coming.

Baroca's whole point was "well, these websites just made the news in Australia. In them, they claim the American government staged the Pentagon attack. Barocca then said:
but i think the pentagon was kamikaze'd by a US air force fighter and the Gov. will not admit it simply because that would be devestating to morale

The 'evidence' offered on those sites is borrowed (most likely without permission) from Thierry Mayssen. Whether you accept their explanation or Barocca's in either case, you're accepting that it wasn't the terrorists (who, for the record have claimed responsibility and left behind documents in Afghanistan showing how they planned the whole affair). This leads us, naturally, to the 'theory' that it wasn't Islamic terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers. Msr. Mayssen claims that was the work of the CIA and Mossad, working in conjunction. I don't know who Barocca ascribes that part of the puzzle to, and frankly, I don't care.

I can refute these claims until I'm blue in the face, as they've already been refuted, numerous times. It won't matter. Conspiracy theories flourish because they can never be 100% disproved. You can prove that I "did" take a crap this morning, but you cannot prove that I did not (you can only offer much more likely alternatives). What's more, I may have flown off the handle at Barocca some, but whenever I see this garbage, I always ask myself "Why would somebody entertain these notions that 1) are highly, highly speculative and 2) a brief search of the web will show to be concocted ex post facto". It's the 'why' that makes me so angry. Why do people insist that it was the CIA and Mossad that blew up the WTC, Adrian? Hmm?

[Adrian II]

Why do people insist that it was the CIA and Mossad that blew up the WTC, Adrian? Hmm?Do you want the real answer to that or the fashionable one? The fashionable one would be that Arabs and muslims are so stupid they believe any propaganda about the CIA and the Mossad. The real answer, my friend, is far more disturbing. Mmany Arabs and muslims (but Arabs in particular) have such a dim view of themselves and their culture's accomplishments that they think Arabs would be too stupid to pull off a '9/11'. Go figure.

I first read this at the end of 2001 in an article by Pakistani leftwing writer and journalist Tariq Ali, who was constantly confronted by what he called 'our people' (mostly subcontinental muslims) with questions about the CIA's and the Mossad's involvement in 9/11. He always countered the question and asked them why they thought the perpetrators could not have been Muslims? The answer was invariably that 'our people' had such a low self-esteem that they didn't think any of them could pull it off.

[Proletariat]

The answer was invariably that 'our people' had such a low self-esteem that they didn't think any of them could pull it off.

Do you believe this?

[Don Corleone]

Thiery Maysson is no Arab or Pakastani, and neither is a large portion of the folks who advocate these theories. They're Europeans. There's plenty of American scum that are out there tossing this manure around too. None of whom have self-esteem issues. The one thing they all DO have in common is that they hate the US so much, they cannot accept the fact that event happened that might generate sympathy for America and they will do whatever they can to change that.

It has a nice emotional appeal "oh, poor arabs, they think so little of themselves" but honestly, that sounds like a whitewash job to me. Do they claim that Jews are a hybrid and pig out of low-self esteem too? Did Mr. Ali offer any sort of full interviews or population data to base his theory of the 'lowly Arab can't believe it's that capable', or is it just speculation based on a couple of conversations he's had?

[Adrian II]

Do you believe this?Judging by what I have seen and heard in various countries, yes, I think it is very plausible. It helps if you pour a couple (illicit) drinks in someone to loosen their tongue. You'd be surprised at their candour. Arab populations are used to holding the Mossad responsible for the most incredible little things because they have such a low image of themselves and their nation. Maybe you have a hard time to imagine the despair in some regions and parts of the population.

Allow me to digress, as well as introduce a bit of hyperbole (but only a little bit). Did you know why so many Algerians voted for the FIS in 1991? Because in that year, the state-owned matchbox factory produced loads of matches that wouldn't light. 'So what?' I hear you say. But what if there are no other matches on the (monopolised) market? Imagine being a poor Algerian in a country where no bus ever runs on time, no office ever does what it was set up to do, no house is adequate to live in, no roof does not have at least one leak, no hospital really takes care of the sick, no school teaches your kids what they need to know, no job ever pays enough to help you make it through the week or the month, and then your darned goverment is not even able to produce something as simple as a match that actually lights when you strike it. You'd be ready for change, any change, as long as somebody somewhere takes charge.

[Big_John]

i didn't watch that video, but i briefly scanned that second link.. it's funny, that 5th picture set (question #5 or whatever) seems to show very clearly that it was a plane about the size of the superimposed silhouette that made the impact. considering the weight-distribution of the plane, and the physics of the impact, the damage represented seems about what i'd expect from the 757 (or whatever it was). that's just eye-balling it, of course.

i have anecdotal evidence that i trust even more.. i lived just north of DC at the time of the attack. my (at-the-time) girlfriend's mother worked in a building near the pentagon that had a clear view of it. she didn't see it, but several of her co-workers told her they saw a passenger jet impact the pentagon. there are a crap-load of eye witnesses that claim the same. considering there is video of passenger jets hitting the wtc, why would anyone assume otherwise for the pentagon? if anything, the imagery only reinforces that it was a 757.

i would subit the imagery on that site itself as counter-evidence for conspiracy theories.

[discovery1]

Anyone have pics of the engines?

[Adrian II]

Anyone have pics of the engines?What Really Happened (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html)

Photos Of Flt 77 Wreckage Inside The Pentagon (http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm)

[PanzerJaeger]

This theory doubts the existence of an entire flight?

Presumably there were people on the flight.. are they now gone? Are their records of their lifes before they died? Parents, spouses, friends - entire lives - would all have to be created for these people.. :dizzy2:

[Divinus Arma]

I think I can shed a little light on this from my unique position as a collision investigator and reconstructionist.

When I first saw this video a few years back, I thought: "where are the wings?"

Well, after years or training and experience in collision dynamics, I now have the answer.

Here is basically what happened from a simple dynamics analysis based on the evidence (the images of the plane and the pentagon are both taken from 2500 ft aerial view:

Here is the Pentagon.
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8120/pentagon1kl.th.jpg (https://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon1kl.jpg)

Here comes the plane:
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/3458/pentagon29sd.th.jpg (https://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon29sd.jpg)

The plane is about to strike the pentagon:
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/380/pentagon37lt.th.jpg (https://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon37lt.jpg)

All of the energy from the plane is goin into the direction of the arrows:
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6475/pentagon44hb.th.jpg (https://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon44hb.jpg)

Here is the part that matters. This is the first event in the collision system. As the front of the plane strikes and enters the building, the force of the collision begins the explosion. Simulataneuosly, the heat of the explosion and vehicle momentum disrupt the integrity of the structure, forcing it to buckle inwards.
https://img387.imageshack.us/img387/3921/pentagon52wv.th.jpg (https://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon52wv.jpg)

Once the cabin of the plane where the wings meet collide with the building, a new event in the collision system occurs. The wings begin to fold in while simulataneously erupting in explosion. Because the momentum of the craft is so great, this event occurs almost concurrently. If the craft were slower, the wings would simply explode. (imagine non-motion: just plain boom. Now imagine all motion with no explosion: folding only.)The faster the craft travels, the greater the probablity that the wings will break and fold before the fuel disintegrates them.
https://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4825/pentagon67eo.th.jpg (https://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon67eo.jpg)

In the end, the entire vehicle is essentially forced into the point of impact. It is the exact opposite of a vaccum. Instead of the building sucking in the plane, the plane is forcing itself into a hole that it created through heat and momentum.
https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/4429/pentagon71nu.th.jpg (https://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pentagon71nu.jpg)

So where are the wings? They were forced into this superheated hole! Good bye wings, hello urban legend!

I will be happy to elaborate or explain my credentials if anyone cares.

[Divinus Arma]

And since I can't edit, sorry about the spelling errors.

[Devastatin Dave]

Excellent post Divinus.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would doubt that what happened on 9-11 was faked. In fact, the very fact that people doubt the authenticity of that day shows either a unbelievable hatred for anything American or a disturbing lack of compassion for the victoms of that day. :shame:

[Devastatin Dave]

Excellent post Divinus.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would doubt that what happened on 9-11 was faked. In fact, the very fact that people doubt the authenticity of that day shows either a unbelievable hatred for anything American or a disturbing lack of compassion for the victoms of that day. :shame:

Since I can't edit, let me rephrase my first sentence in my last post.

"I can't believe that anyone would think that what happened on 9-11 was faked."

[Redleg]

In essence it seems you are saying Divinus Arma because of the speed of the plane - it was more like the speeding bullet - little hole going in because of speed - more damage inside because the building began to absorb the impact.

If one understands how the sabot anti-tank rounds work - it would also seem to explain why little aircraft residue was found outside of the building.

Planes are designed to be aerodymanic (cant spell worth a damn myself) if I remember correctly.

[Azi Tohak]

Sweet! Thanks Divinus. That was very good.

Azi

[Proletariat]

Judging by what I have seen and heard in various countries, yes, I think it is very plausible.

Do you find the following plausible? I don't, although there's room for truth in it.



One of the very best books I read this summer, The American Enemy: The History of French Anti-Americanism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226723682/ref%3Dnosim/nationalreviewon/002-7035644-5916024) by Philippe Roger, makes the point that the French have never been very interested in the United States. When they talk about America, they are always talking about themselves--and it is precisely when they are most uneasy about themselves that they are most inclined to lash out at the United States.

And right now, the French are uneasy indeed. Adam Gopnik had a piece in The New Yorker about three weeks ago about the all-pervasiveness of the sense of crisis in France. Any doubts I had as to the accuracy of his perceptions have been dispelled today. I have been on French soil now for less than 12 hours, stumbling along in my miserable high-school French--and in that short space of time, three different French people--one a defense intellectual, one a teacher and translator, and one a café owner who brought me a glass of wine and plate of cheese on my way to look at the town museum--initiated conversations about the utter hopelessness of France’s condition.

The only available consolation seems to be the hope that maybe things are even worse somewhere else--and it is on that hope that French television pundits make their careers. It’s irritating at first. But on second thought, it’s rather sad.

http://frum.nationalreview.com/

[Adrian II]

Do you find the following plausible? I don't, although there's room for truth in it.There is certainly room for truth in it. According to the French middle classes their country has been going to the dogs since Clovis. Crying imbécile is a way of life for the French for as long as I frequent them (which is at least once a year since 1969, and sometimes for months). And they are inward-looking just like all great nations, the Americans, Chinese, Brits, Russians, Brazilians. Much of their criticism or adoration of other countries is a reflection of their own national preoccupations.

[kiwitt]

Divinus: An excellent presentation.

This does not only make it plausible, it disproves any of those Urban legends in laymens terms.

Conspiracy Theories, be damned. This goes to proves that conspiracy theories are based on conjecture and half-truths. I think instead of becoming a "Conspiracy Theorist", that I felt was developing into,( until I joined in discussions here), I should look for real reasons for events; (i.e. become a "debunker" of these theories.)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

If I said the britsh government staged the IRA attacks I'd most likely be banned...weird.

[Divinus Arma]

Just so everyone knows, in the Marine Corps, I am a Collision Reconstructionist, which is a step more complex than traffic accident investigation. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours of formal training from the Department of Defense and from State Certified local Law Enforcement Agencies. :book:

I'll be attending one of the countries top reconstruction courses in Florida in October, and after that I will be pursueing my ACTAR accreditation. :balloon2:

The point of this is to further bust the myth by explaining that I am not just "guessing".

[Devastatin Dave]

If I said the britsh government staged the IRA attacks I'd most likely be banned...weird.

So true...

[Strike For The South]

So true...

Thats right were white christian americans we shouldn't have to put up with this bull

[Xiahou]

Anything that has to use so much music and imagery to make it's point is pretty much always devoid of anything resembling fact. The ominous music and fancy animations just try to cover for how base the peice really is...
It was like that schlock "The Power of Nightmares" that people were saying we "needed" to see in the Backroom not too long ago. The saddest thing about it is that you realize you'll never get back those minutes that you wasted watching it.

It's also sad to see that people dislike the US enough to believe we're capable of anything- just so long as it's bad. :no:

This should be all the refutation anyone needs:

CREW

Charles Burlingame, captain; David Charlebois, first officer; Michele Heidenberger; Jennifer Lewis; Kenneth Lewis; Renee May;


PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose; Yeneneh Betru; M.J. Booth; Bernard Brown; Suzanne Calley; William Caswell; Sarah Clark; Asia Cottom; James Debeuneure; Rodney Dickens; Eddie Dillard; Charles Droz; Barbara Edwards; Charles S. Falkenberg; Zoe Falkenberg; Dana Falkenberg; Joe Ferguson; Wilson "Bud" Flagg; Dee Flagg; Richard Gabriel; Ian Gray; Stanley Hall; Bryan Jack; Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby; Ann Judge; Yvonne Kennedy; Norma Khan; Karen A. Kincaid; Norma Langsteuerle; Dong Lee; Dora Menchaca; Christopher Newton; Barbara Olson; Ruben Ornedo; Robert Penniger; Lisa Raines; Todd Reuben; John Sammartino; Diane Simmons; George Simmons; Mari-Rae Sopper; Bob Speisman; Hilda Taylor; Leonard Taylor; Leslie A. Whittington; John Yamnicky; Vicki Yancey; Shuyin Yang; Yuguag Zheng;

[lars573]

The only people who could believe that a plane never hit the pentagon have 0 understanding of physics. While in high school they obviously though it was for losers. That despit the size of a passenger air craft it's basically made out of aluminium and plastic. That once you compromise it structure it goes to pieces, fast. Planes are not durable at all when you consider the speeds they move at. They wouldn't be able to fly if they were.

[Papewaio]

True for its size a aeroplane is less strong then a coke can... and see what happends when you stomp on one of those.

[Divinus Arma]

The only people who could believe that a plane never hit the pentagon have 0 understanding of physics. While in high school they obviously though it was for losers. That despit the size of a passenger air craft it's basically made out of aluminium and plastic. That once you compromise it structure it goes to pieces, fast. Planes are not durable at all when you consider the speeds they move at. They wouldn't be able to fly if they were.

You are exactly correct. It's just simple physics. As for the wings, they were just reacting to the forces placed upon them.


And thanks for the kudos folks. ~:cheers:

[Papewaio]

So DA do you have a physics background?

[ICantSpellDawg]

So DA do you have a physics background?


Pape, what is your background?

[Papewaio]

I have a fairly convulted career path but the short version:

BSs in Multidisciplinary Science, Majors in Applied Physic & Exploration Geophysics... minor in Astrophysics. Worked in gold exploration in Indonesia and Aus, then working in IT and moved to Telephony Servers... so tech based. :smart:

[ICantSpellDawg]

I have a fairly convulted career path but the short version:

BSs in Multidisciplinary Science, Majors in Applied Physic & Exploration Geophysics... minor in Astrophysics. Worked in gold exploration in Indonesia and Aus, then working in IT and moved to Telephony Servers... so tech based. :smart:


and what is your opinion of this conspiracy theory?

[Papewaio]

Bogus with a capital B.

Barocca is doing the right thing in getting as much ammo as possible to shoot this theory full of holes... he is doing some Mythbusting.

With the likes of DA here it seems we have some really good data.

I don't think consipracy theories hold much water... it would only take a single tiny leak to spring them apart... then view how little cohesion government agencies have when dealing with problems... if the government cannot act as a team in an emergency over a hurricane, I very much doubt it could do the scale of coverup required for a consipracy theory of this magnitude.

In short the incompetence of governments of the worlds is proof enought that consipiracy theories are not worth the paper they are printed on.

[Divinus Arma]

So DA do you have a physics background?

Collision reconstruction is pretty physics intensive. I don't have a degree in physics, I have ceertifications in collision investigation.

The principles of angular and collinear momentum in collision recomstruction, for example, involve breaking the entire collision system down into energy from momentum. Momentum, as I'm sure you know, is a vector quanitity, being assigned a scalar value as well as direction. The energy entering a collision always equals the energy expended in a collision.

We apply newton's laws of physics, especially the second law (on inertia), to account for all of the lost energy in a collision. By accounting for the expended energy, we can account for the initial energy. The whole point in a reconstruction is to analyze the evidence and determine what transpired, second by second, all the way back to the point of possible perception and first harmful event. In this way, I can assign fault in an accident.

For example, Vehicle #1 is traveling North towards an intersection and observes Vehicle #2 entering the intersection from the East. Driver of Vehicle #1 executes maximum braking, but is unable to avoid Vehicle #2. As a result, the front end of Vehicle #1 strikes the left front door of Vehicle #2.

If both drivers were killed, and there are no witnesses, how do we determine who is at fault? Was Vehicle #1 driving too fast? Did Vehicle #2 unsafely enter the intersection?

We use math (algebra, some right angle trig, and calculus) to figure it out.

An example of how we do this would be as follows:

This is a basic speed (in mph) from locked wheel skid formula, where:

S = the square root of 30df [sorry no square root synbol and I don't fee like uploading a picture]

Speed = S [this is the total minimum speed
Friction (the coefficient of friction, or how "sticky" the road is in relation to that specific vehicle in those specific conditions) = f
the number 30 is a constant, which was developed from a relationship between variables that I don't have the ability to derivate right at this moment.

So, if I vehicle leaves 100 feet of locked wheel skid and has a coefficient of friction of .7 in that length, we know that S=square root of 30(100)(.7), or about 14.5 mph or so. I am doing this without a calculator, so someone can feel free to correct me.

So, if some guy is driving through a neighborhood and sees a little kid run into the street and slams on his brakes, but hit the kid anyway, with this formula I can now determine:

a. Whether he was speeding
b. Where the kid was when he saw the kid
c. How far away he was when he saw the kid.

Because Velocity in Feet per second is S1.467, I can say he was going 21.27feet per second when he first hit the brakes. Since we it takes 1.5 seconds just to react (According to studies) and hit the brakes, he traveled 21.27(1.5) = 31.9 feet in his reaction, which means he was 131.9 feet away when he actually the kid. :charge:

You get my point. Yes I know I am taking about Papewaio.

And there is no way I am going to break down angular momentum in formula and procedure here since it takes no less than 240 hours of classroom time to learn. I am not going into the quadratic equation, crush analysis, et al. If you want to see a reconstruction, look into the recent works on Princess Dianna's traffic accident. I am sure you can find out what I'm talking about by looking at the fancy videos they'll show you. :book:

My Degree is actually in Business Management.

I hope this helped. :balloon2:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Bogus with a capital B.

Barocca is doing the right thing in getting as much ammo as possible to shoot this theory full of holes... he is doing some Mythbusting.

With the likes of DA here it seems we have some really good data.

I don't think consipracy theories hold much water... it would only take a single tiny leak to spring them apart... then view how little cohesion government agencies have when dealing with problems... if the government cannot act as a team in an emergency over a hurricane, I very much doubt it could do the scale of coverup required for a consipracy theory of this magnitude.

In short the incompetence of governments of the worlds is proof enought that consipiracy theories are not worth the paper they are printed on.

Without a physics degree or a proficiency in impact assessment, I concur with every single word.

[Divinus Arma]

And damn I wish I had my edit button back to fix all those errors. I also had to break out the calculator for that last part. ~D

[Papewaio]

I figured you knew what you were talking about... I was wondering if you got into that area through Physics, Medical, Enginnering, Forensics or other science... Business Management was not my first guess. ~:cheers:

BTW I have seen ^ used as power. So square root would be ^0.5

So (30df)^0.5

[Xiahou]

In short the incompetence of governments of the worlds is proof enought that consipiracy theories are not worth the paper they are printed on.See sig. ~D

[Divinus Arma]

I figured you knew what you were talking about... I was wondering if you got into that area through Physics, Medical, Enginnering, Forensics or other science... Business Management was not my first guess. ~:cheers:

BTW I have seen ^ used as power. So square root would be ^0.5

So (30df)^0.5


I got into this area from Law Enforcement, not Business Management. After being a K9 handler and doing high-speed exciting things, I reenlisted into a position with a little civilian potential. I am hoping to get into an Insurance job while I apply for positions in the Fire Department of local Police agencies. :balloon2:

[Don Corleone]

I would like to take a moment and reflect on my comments in this thread earlier this week. I find 9/11 conspiracy theories offensive, because in my mind, they imply that only the United States itself is capable of such malevolence.

That being said, there is a world of difference between taking offense at a theory (and Thiery Masson) and taking offense at a person who brings it up for conversation's sake. Barocca, I was out of line and apologize. I still have serious issues with the ideas you were presenting as credible for discussion, but my expression of that was out of line.

[econ21]

Well said, Don. I've always admired your even-handedness and so I was surprised at your earlier posts, but your apology only reinforces my initial high regard. :bow:

As it happens, like you, I also saw red when I first read Barocca's initial post. However, when I saw everyone's responses and went back to re-read the post carefully, I realised I had misjudged it.

[Adrian II]

Barocca, I was out of line and apologize. I still have serious issues with the ideas you were presenting as credible for discussion, but my expression of that was out of line.You are a gentleman, Don.:bow:




Sso.. let's roll! :duel: ~D

[Crazed Rabbit]

In short the incompetence of governments of the worlds is proof enought that consipiracy theories are not worth the paper they are printed on.

Unless its a massive comspiracy to lull us serfs into thinking they wouldn't be capable of doing such things. ~:eek:

Crazed Rabbit