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View Full Version : Countdown to Open Beta - SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS



khelvan
09-10-2005, 21:17
Salvete fans of Evropa Barbarorvm!

We know some of you might be anxious for this one, but we must spend a moment to thank many people first. As you can see below, this faction owes much of its existence to the one and only Prometheus. There's not much else we can say except thanks for all the units you see below, though he's had some help along the way. Our faction coordinator VandalCarthage hasn't been on the job that long, but he's doing a bang-up job keeping the ball rolling. The units have also passed through the capable hands of our captain, Aymar de Bois Mauri with Urnamma as his historical consultant. Dux Corvanus is the artist behind our faction icon and Seydlitz has made the transition from concept artist to pontifex maximus with the Roman religious buildings, and working together Legio XX Valeria Victrix and VandalCarthage have provided you with more information about Roman history than you might be able to handle in one night's sitting. Seydlitz and Teleklos Archelaou pitched in with the faction description, and TA also put together the buildings below. cunctator provided the unit descriptions and kayapó helped by pushing the preview out the door. You should know by now the traits are the result of Malrubius' hard work. We have to mention that therother, our Traitmaster, wrote our Catvlvs description, among others, and QwertyMIDX did the ones for Cato and Plavtvs. And, of course, without the script team, the glory of the triumph would not exist. TA, as you probably know by now, helped with just about everything. He is behind the writing of the Latin specific traits and helped correct most of the other texts. Feel the love!

So without further ado, here is what you've been waiting for:

This week the Evropa Barbarorvm team is proud to present...


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We have never yet feared anything in the realm of men. But the divine, Fortuna herself, we always hold dread of her as faithless and inconstant; and, for the very reason that in war she has been as a favourable gale in all our affairs to this point, and we still expect some change and reflux. We never act without first taking the auspices, in public and private matters, and with crimsoned hands and smoke from the altars in our eyes we give the utmost importance to the omens our augurs take from them, just as Romulus himself did, on the first day of our city’s existence. Even after successful auspices and a victorious campaign, secure and free from the danger of a now defeated enemy, we dread the change of the goddess at sea or entering a narrow mountain pass, whilst conveying home our victorious army, vast spoils, and a captive king. Nay, indeed, after we return and see the city full of joy, congratulating, and sacrifices, yet still we distrust, well knowing that Fortuna never conferred any great benefits that were unmixed and unattended with probabilities of reverse. Therefore it is not in the auspices alone that we place all of our trust, but we also put our faith into the customs of our fathers, and in the steel we fashion into the bane of our enemies. The chief glory and mainstay of our Res Publica, preserved intact and safe up to the present time with salutary steadfastness, is the tenacious bond of military discipline, and it is the gods themselves who have vouched that military discipline jealously conserved will win over the leadership of the whole of Italia; rule over many cities, great kings, mighty nations, the jaws of the Euxine, the shattered barriers of the Alpes and Tauri, all from our origin in Romulus’ little cottage. Our scars have scarcely healed from our last campaign, and they will never disappear, but we remain victorious and unconquered, as yet small, but trusting in the gods and in Fortuna as well as we might. The Conscript Fathers and our Res Publica, the Senatus Populusque Romanus and our gods, our brothers and fathers, we all carry down the mos maiorium for our sons and descendants and even for the great city itself. We trust in our past and with Fortuna’s good blessings and courage and arms, and a devotion to the gods, we trust in our glorious future as well.

Our soldiers are drawn from the various classes of our society. Some of the general multitude serve as skirmishers in the ranks of the Acensii, Roarii and Leves; after that is the heart of the Roman army, our heavy infantry. The Hastatii, the Principes and the Triarii are the backbone of any force we bring to the field of battle. Our cavalry, few in number but brave, are composed of the richest class, the Equites. This force is bolstered by many of our new allies, such as the Samnitii and the other tribes who have wisely succumbed to our protection. It is the sacred responsibility of all those under the rule of the Res Publica in time of war to rise up to defend Roma and her allies, and this they do with vigor. While they are not as fearsome or bred exclusively for war as the Gallus, or as professional as the mercenary employed by the Graeci or the Carthaginienses, each one knows what fate should befall their families and the Roman populace were they to suffer defeat in battle. Our advantage over the enemy lies not only in the determination of our citizens, but on the superior flexibility in battle of our legions. No foreigner shall ever enter as a conqueror into Rome, as long as her citizens draw breath!

As powerful as our armies have thus far proven themselves to be, the Senate is constantly aware of the numerous threats that conspire to overwhelm our strengths, and we advise you to take heed of our advice on these issues in particular. Our expansion in Italia has provided us with some measure of protection to the northeast, but barbarian tribes to the north constantly harry our cities and conquered territories in the north of the peninsula. The Gallic nations covet the best farmland south of the Alpes, and it is from their grasp that the Padus Valley must be taken if we hope to secure the entire peninsula. They are pressed by the Germani tribes farther to the north and by peoples to their west and northwest as well, and it would be wise for us to gain further information on their domains and activities for the time being. We are thankful that the Samnites are at long last defeated and the Lucani and Bruttii will not last long alone. You understand that our hands are now full with the conquest of the remainder of Italia, but we must not allow the Celtae peoples to advance unchecked any further south of their present territories. This time a year ago, the two most dire threats to the well being of the Res Publica existed in the person of Pyrrhus and the people of Carthago. But now we are thankful that his armies have been crushed and we have received word of late that his royal person is embarrassed to no longer be in possession of his own head. The eyes of Carthago look upon the full of Sicilia now that Pyrrhus is removed, and our interests would best be served ensuring that the mainland sees no Carthaginian intervention or expansion. If the gods so desire it, we will face them at sea one day, but for now it seems best to increase our power here. Finally, our agreements with certain cities have benefited us in trade, but if we wish to protect them and ultimately our own interests, we must have men enough to send to their aid, and risk the full anger of the Galli, Iberes, Carthaginians, or even the other Graeci. Make no treaties with foreign peoples unless the most dire consequences threaten and do not trust the Graeci in any fashion, even those Macedones in Aegyptus who sent an ambassador to us less than a year ago. Trust in the ways of your father and his ancestors, and our gods, and you will be successful if they so will it.



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Historical Situation of the Senatvs Popvlvsque Romanvs in 272 B.C.:


The origins of Roman civilization are shrouded in mystery. The Romans themselves had several myths to explain their beginnings. Many believed that the origin of Rome lies with a mysterious set of twins named Romulus and Remus. According to legend, around the year 753 BC, the twins were abandoned by their mother, Rhea Silvia, and were floated down the Tiber River, to the place where Rome was founded, and were raised by a she-wolf. Ultimately, Romulus would kill his brother Remus, and would become the first great king of Rome. Another myth, told by Virgil in the Aeneid, traces Roman origins back even farther, to the time of Achilles and Hector and the fall of Troy. In this version of the story, a young Trojan boy named Aeneas escapes the sack of Troy, and over the course of many years travels the Mediterranean in search of a new home for the displaced Trojans. Aeneas, after many adventures, settles along the Tiber River, and it is asserted by Virgil that Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas. Neither of these myths can be substantiated by any physical evidence, and the existence of all three mythical characters is highly doubtful.

What can be substantiated is that the site of the city of Rome was settled around the time that Romulus and Remus are recorded as having founded the city. The original settlement was nothing more than a series of primitive huts, and who the original Romans actually were is also very mysterious. Most of the earliest settlements are found on the Capitoline Hill (Collis Capitolinus), one of the seven main hills located in Rome. It is from these origins that the Roman Monarchy begins.

Rome under the rule of the monarchs was still in its fledgling infancy, and was in many ways dominated by the great Etruscan civilization to the north. Almost all of its kings, though many are possibly fictional, took Etruscan names. The Roman kings, in order, are Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, Servius Tullius, and Lucius Tarquinius Superbus. The monarchs of Rome were not the supreme rulers that many associate with absolute monarchy. Even at this early stage there was a Senate, which held in check the powers of the king. Kingship in Rome was not a hereditary institution. Traditionally, Roman kings were succeeded by their sons-in-law, that is the men who married into their families by wedding their daughters. This process could be interrupted, however, as the Senate could nominate an interrex, of intermediary monarch who would then nominate someone for the position of king. This nominee was submitted to the Comitia Curiata, an assembly of the people who would vote and then pass their findings on to the Senate, whose vote on the nominee would decide whether he would become king. The process was not always as lawful as this, however. Several times in early Roman history, kings were overthrown, and replaced by new kings.

The greatest achievements of the kings were the expansion of Roman hegemony to the outlying areas of the city, and the draining of the swamplands that surrounded the hills of Rome. The city expanded and grew in influence under their guidance. The final Roman king, Tarquin II, or Tarquin “the Superb,” was responsible for the construction of the Cloaca Maxima, or Great Sewer. This sewage system would remain functional well beyond the fall of the Western Empire almost 1000 years later.

Tarquin II was a despotic king, however. He had used violence and treachery to gain the throne, and subsequently rescinded a constitutional law by the Senate to obtain more power for himself. His son’s rape of a prominent Roman noblewoman, Lucretia, lead to a popular revolt against the Tarquins, and their exile to Etruria. This ended the monarchy in Roman history, and ushered in the new era of Roman civilization, the Republic!

The new Republican government was the result of vast political changes in Roman life. First and most importantly, the position of king was entirely abandoned, and the power in Rome was now vested in the Senate. The Senate had several key positions of power, the foremost of which being the consulship. The Senate followed the practices of annuality, or rather the stipulation that the position of consul be obtained by one man for only a one year term, and collegiality, which stated that there must be two consuls who would have equal veto rights over the decisions of the other consul. This prevented the power from becoming too concentrated into one man’s hands. During military operations, both consuls would exercise command of the army, alternating days on which they were in overall command. As the Senate matured, other positions of lesser power began to emerge. The Praetorship, for example, was begin in 356 BC, and was originally a sort of third consulship. Ultimately, by the late Republic, the Senate would have 8 Praetors, and over 20 Quaestors. Early in the history of the Republic, the office of dictator was created, to be filled only in times of military emergencies. The dictator could either be a consul himself, or someone that one of the consuls nominated and was approved by the Senate. The dictator served for a period of six months, and had supreme command of the Roman army. There could only be one dictator at a time, and he had to abide by his term of six months.

The original Senate was comprised entirely of the Roman noble class, commonly known as patricians. These patricians formed the Roman elite, and ruled with little regard for the lower classes of Romans, or plebians. The Roman class structure was ancestral and it was inherited through the generations. Conflict between the two classes was commonplace in the early days of the Republic, sometimes growing so heated that the entire plebian class would pack up and move outside the city until the Senate or patricians bowed to their demands. A series of clashes between the patricians and plebians would lead to the plebians gaining control of much of Roman legislation. They originally elected two Tribunes, or plebian officers, who would be sacred to the plebians and would speak for them in the Senate. Later, there came to be ten Tribunes. Finally, after many secessions, the patricians awarded them the Concilium Plebis, or Council of the Plebians, which had the power to bind laws to both the patricians and the plebs. Thus, the plebians had found power in the Roman Republic.

Until the 4th Century BC, Rome remained a small, if influential, city state, almost exclusively limited to the land surrounding the city, and leading west towards the port of Ostia on the Tyrrhenian Sea. The Romans saw their first limited expansion at the expense of the neighboring city-state of Veii, who they defeated in a lengthy war in 396 BC. Six short years later, however, Rome suffered a disaster that in many ways shapes the historical record of Rome prior to that event. In 390 BC, a Gallic chieftain by the name of Brennus made his way south and attacked the Romans along the Allia River, north of Rome. This battle was a disaster of unmitigated proportions for the Romans, whose army gave way when the young men on their right flank routed under the Gallic attack. The Gauls then easily sacked the defenseless city of Rome, and destroyed all Roman records, among other things. This in large part explains why Roman history prior to 390 remains so mysterious to scholars. Brennus occupied the city for a lengthy period of time, ultimately leaving after taking 1,000 pounds of gold and suffering from a plague as a result of not burying the dead of the campaign. He was also harried away from the city by a relief army under Marcus Furius Camillus.

As a result of this disaster, the city of Rome was fortified with much thicker and sturdier walls. Roman military organization would undergo rapid and radical reforms. The phalanx would eventually be abandoned once and for all, and new armor and weapons adopted for the legions. The typical deployment of a Roman legion would be altered to become what we know it as today; the young men, or Hastati, in front; the principes, or older men, in a second supporting line, and finally the elder veterans, or Triarii, in a reserve line. Rome would not be sacked by invaders again for almost a millennia.

The Roman response to the Gallic attack was remarkable, and before long they were once again fighting to expand their nascent Republic. Wars with the Latins and Sabines neighboring Rome were not uncommon. Towards the middle of the 4th Century, Rome faced a new enemy, this time to the south: the Samnites. The Samnites were a confederation of four central Italic tribes, the Pentri, the Caraceni, the Caudini, and the Hirpini. They were viciously effective warriors, and at their greatest expanse they occupied land on both coasts of the Italian Peninsula. Their first treaty with Rome came in 354 BC, but tensions soon arose as Rome continually expanded southward. Rome fought three great wars against the Samnites, the first one beginning in 343 BC as a result of Roman alliance with the city of Capua. The war lasted until 341, with neither side gaining any noticeable advantage.

The Second Samnite War was a long and bloody struggle fought over three decades, from 327 to 304 BC. It began when the Romans established a colony at Fregellae, in Samnite controlled territory. This increased tensions, so that when Rome declared war on the Greek colony of Neapolis, the Samnites came to the assistance of the Greek colonists. The war was evenly fought until Rome suffered another fateful reverse on the battlefield. This reverse was dealt by a Samnite army under Gaius Pontius at what is known as the Battle of Caudine Forks. The Samnite commander, Pontius, succeeded in tricking the Roman army into marching through a narrow pass at Caudine where escape was possible through only two narrow defiles. When the Romans passed through one of the defiles, they quickly found the next defile blocked by Samnite warriors, and turned around to discover more Samnites had trapped them in by blocking the other defile. A crisis then arose as to what the Samnites should do to these trapped Romans. Pontius was given advice by several others, some of whom argued for him to free all the Romans, others for him to slaughter them to a man. Pontius chose the middle route, and offered the Romans a humiliating offer of surrender, which the Romans accepted. The Romans marched in shame back to Rome, but by 316 they were back campaigning against the Samnites. By 304, yearly invasions of Samnium were commonplace, and Rome was gaining the advantage in the Romano-Samnite conflict. Peace arrived that year, but it was a peace both sides knew would not last.

The inter-war period between the Second and Third Samnite Wars were a time where Roman expansion began to have effect on the complexities and routines of Roman life. During this six year period, the first Roman aqueduct, the aqua Appia, was constructed. This is clear evidence that the population of Rome had grown too large to be accommodated by the local water resources. Another great public works project was begun, the famous Via Appia, or Appian Way, the great Roman road that would eventually transverse most of Italy. In its original state, the Via Appia was meant to be a military highway, used to move troops efficiently towards the Samnite front. Also during this period, Rome flexed her military muscles and showed that she had the capacity to wage wars on two fronts and against many enemies. Roman armies sacked many Etruscan towns in this age, reaching as far north as Arretium. To the south and east, the Romans annihilated the local Aequi and Hernici tribes. Everywhere was evidenced the fact that Rome was in the ascendant.

The final showdown with the Samnites would begin in 298. Hostilities began this time as a result of Roman actions in Lucania, and the Samnites this time had many allies to support them, as a result of Roman expansion in the region. The Samnites had a confederation of Etruscans, Gauls, and Umbrians to support them in this war, unlike the previous wars which had been exclusively Roman versus Samnite affairs. As a result of this confederation, the stakes in this war had been raised to most of central Italy. The war went well for Rome right from the start. In 295, the consuls defeated the allied forces at Sentium in Umbria. This loss proved catastrophic, and Rome went on to finish off the Samnites at Aquilonia in 291. The war ended in 290 with Rome either controlling all of central Italy, or ruling it through proxy by allied states now under Roman military occupation.

This Roman dominance of the peninsula lead to their increased attention in areas surrounding those they already controlled. Rome’s greatest challenge yet would be found as a result of their aspirations for dominance of southern Italy, specifically the city of Tarentum. Tarentum was a city of Greek colonial origin, and in the late 4th Century it was experiencing some diplomatic issues with its northern neighbors, the Romans. As a result of the falling out of Tarentum from Roman favor, the Tarentines enlisted the aid of the King of Epirus: Pyrrhus Aikedes. Pyrrhus was widely considered to be the greatest military genius of his day, and he sailed to Italy in 280 with a vast army of 26,000 men, including 19 war elephants.

The Pyrrhic war would ultimately bring Rome to the world stage by 272 BC, but in 280, they still had a long way to go to get there. In 280, the Romans amassed 80,000 men in legionary and auxiliary forces and separated them into four armies to confront the new threats. One army would occupy Samnium, since there was great threat that the Samnites would move to join Pyrrhus. Another army was sent directly to intercept Pyrrhus in southern Italy, and the other two armies marched against the Etruscans and secured Rome, respectively. The army under Publius Laevinus, a consul that year, that had been sent to intercept Pyrrhus, was badly beaten at the battle of Heraclea. The battle began well enough for the Romans, but when Pyrrhus committed his war elephants and his elite Thessalian cavalrymen to the battle, the Romans gave way. Pyrrhus then marched almost all the way to Rome, pillaging as he went, and was finally met by another Roman army two days march from the city itself. In the face of this threat, he withdrew.

The Romans pursued him south into Campania and Samnium the next year, and the two forces met once again at Asculum. Both Pyrrhus and the Romans had about 40,000 soldiers, but Pyrrhus had the advantage in cavalry, as well as his war elephants. By this time, the Romans had devised some methods of anti-elephant warfare, and were eager to test them against the elephants that had caused so much destruction at Heraclea. Also at this battle, Pyrrhus had managed to gain some Italian Greek and Samnite auxiliaries to his army, and would deploy them in light formations so as to balance the inflexibility of his phalanx against the flexibility of the legions. The first day of battle consisted mostly of light infantry contact with the Epirotes and Greeks pushing the Romans back into a steep wooded hill by dusk. Once again, Pyrrhus’ elephants had been crucial. The second day of battle saw a battle very similar to that at Heraclea: an even fight between the infantry of both sides, but the war elephants yet again being the crucial deciding factor, followed up by a cavalry charge that broke the Roman formations. The victory, as at Heraclea, had been tough to bear for Pyrrhus, who is reputed to have said “One more such victory and we are finished.” Following his “Pyrrhic victory” he withdrew south, and no more battles were fought with the Romans until 275.

Growing weary of the war in Italy, Pyrrhus fought one last battle against the persistent Romans at Beneventum. This battle was fought in a manner strikingly similar to those he had fought before against the Romans, but this time, he lacked his Samnite and Greek allies, and his elephants were turned against him by Roman anti-elephant tactics. Despite the battle ultimately ending in a draw, he decided that the time had come for him to leave Italy, and in so doing he surrendered the fates of Southern Italians to be conquered by the Romans.


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Thus, by 272, Rome is just entering her prime. She has just completed the conquest of large portions of the Italian peninsula. She has survived a disaster most other city-states would have succumbed to in 390. She fought three long and bloody wars against a tough and determined Italian enemy for a half century. Finally, she had defeated in a war of attrition perhaps the greatest general the world had seen since the time of Alexander. She now stood astride the Italian peninsula and for the first time, looked outward upon the vastness of the Mediterranean, and saw a world that she would one day rule. Within a decade, she would be at war with the greatest enemy she would perhaps ever face: Carthage. The wars she had just fought with the Samnites and with Pyrrhus would prove that she was ready for that war.

Though Carthage had been brought to cow, and her resources taxed to their limits to satisfy Roman indemnities, Hamilcar Barca single-handedly revived its spirit. Independent of the Carthaginian Senate, Hamilcar had moved into Iberia, conquering much of Southern Iberia. With Hamilcar's death in combat, his son-in-law Hasdrubal the Handsome would take up where he left off, furthering Carthaginian interests in the peninsula enormously. Despite establishing a stable relationship with most of Carthage's client Iberian tribes, and expanding the territory under its direct administration, Hasdrubal was ill equipped to resist the assassin's blade when it found him in his capital at Cartagena.

With Hasdrubal the Handsome dead, the eldest natural son of Hamilcar inherited the vast Barca fortune in Iberia as well as his brother-in-law's command of the Carthaginian army, through the almost unanimous acclamation of the army itself. Having secured the support of his brother's forces and the blessing of the Carthaginian Senate, Hannibal began his career by consolidating his people's holdings in Iberia - with great success. When Hannibal first moved against Rome, all of Iberia South of the River Ebro, and much of it to the North, was in Carthaginian hands.

In Rome, the Senate was overly ambivalent to the events in Iberia, and when Hannibal attacked her allies in Saguntum... no military response was sent. Rome was once more at war with the Carthaginian trading empire, and not a single legion was on foot even in the same continent. Though Rome had learned a lesson from Regulus' gamble in North Africa, they would need to reorder their thoughts to secure Carthage's defeat. For the moment though, no such thing occurred, and Hannibal's march towards Italy was entirely unopposed by Roman arms.

Response to Hannibal's march came late, only challenging him at the River Ticinus, where his greatly reduced army of now 26,000 Iberians and Africans defeated the Romans. Falling back from this relative skirmish, the Roman Consular Army under the direct command of the two Senate Consuls was lured into combat, and defeated yet again - this time with enormous casualties, which would include the two Consuls. With a significant victory over a better equipped Roman army to his name, Hannibal gained the support of 24,000 Gauls and rebellious Italians in the North.

To deal with the defeat, the Roman Senate elected Gaius Flaminius as Consul, and dispatched him to ambush Hannibal. The Carthaginian general was warned of the ambush, however, and marched completely around the new Consular army. Giving chase to Hannibal, Flaminius' forces were completely destroyed in what is historically regarded as one of the most amazing ambushes of all time, at the Battle of Lake Tresimene. This defeat brought a great deal of concern to Rome, and the newly appointed dictator resolved on a new approach to defeating the Carthaginian army, namely one of non-engagement. The dictator Fabius believed that if he avoided direct engagements with Hannibal, that he could eventually contain and starve out his army, which he nearly succeeded at doing. Unfortunately for the Roman armies, the Senate demanded swifter results, and two new Consuls were elected to command a massive army of nearly 100,000 soldiers. When these two Consuls met Hannibal on the field at Cannae, he encircled their troops, and destroyed all but a few thousand of them.

Realizing their precarious situation in Italy itself, Rome was content to renew the war on their own terms in Iberia - which was initially done with great success. General Gnaeus Scipio had presently won a great many victories in the peninsula, depriving Carthage of many of their local allies and resources. Despite this great initial success, Scipio's army was completely routed by Hannibal's brothers in Iberia. Regardless of this defeat, Rome believed that victory lay in Iberia, so Scipio's son Publius was dispatched there to take up his campaigns. Within a year of his arrival in Iberia, Scipio had conquered Carthage's capital there, leading Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal to attempt a union with him in Italy. Hasdrubal attempted to emulate Hannibal in his march through the North, an effort in which he was successful, but his eventually defeat in the Po Valley was as devastating as any of his elder brother's victories.

With Carthaginian power in Iberia broken, and the Roman Senate unwilling to engage Hannibal in Italy, Scipio was permitted to raise an army in the newly acquired Sicilian territories for a direct engagement on Carthaginian soil. With his armies well equipped and trained, Scipio moved swiftly into Carthage where he quickly laid siege to Utica - defeating two Carthaginian armies put on foot to oppose him. In response to the Carthaginian Senate's plea for aid, Hannibal quickly returned in a launching that is known in and of itself for its incredible speed and efficiency. Arriving in Carthage, Hannibal received some new elephants and infantry to supplement his largely Gallic and Italian army. When Scipio met Hannibal at the Battle of Zama, his heavier infantry and new wing of Numidian cavalry destroyed the outclassed Carthaginians. Having destroyed the most fearsome opponent Rome had ever faced, the Senate was only too happy to impose enormous war indemnities on the suffering Empire, restricting its territory and forbidding it to make war independently.

Rome had conquered the oldest West Mediterranean Empire, as well as the Illyrians and Macedonians, and finally moved into Asia Minor. This swift series of conquests placed Rome in the most secure position in its early history, doubling its territory in the process, and creating numerous new provinces. With such a list of victories to their name, the Romans would forever be addicted to conquest. Before they could proceed on their greatest ventures of conquest however, Rome would face her first civil war.

In Gaul, the campaigns of Julius Caesar had destroyed Vercingetorix's massive tribal alliance, bringing a vast new track of territory into Roman control and a valuable political coin into Caesar's hands. To secure his power and prestige before his assault on Gaul, Caesar had formed the first triumvirate in Roman history, with the wealthy and locally influential Crassus, and the popular general Pompey. When Caesar returned from his conquest, Crassus had been defeated and killed during a campaign in Parthia, and Pompey had raised an army with the Senate to oppose the entrance of the ambitious Caesar. Pompey and the Senate army were defeated, and the general fled the peninsula, and would eventually die at the hands of a Ptolemaic King offering him refuge.

When Caesar returned to Rome after chasing Pompey across the Mediterranean, he was "pressed" into serving as the Roman dictator for life. Believing that he would abolish the Senate and oppress the Roman people, a coalition of Senators assassinated him on the Senate floor. With Caesar dead, two of the Senators, Cassius and Brutus, fled to Philipi in Asia Minor with their personal armies to oppose Caesar's friend Marc Antony and his adopted son Octavian. In the ensuing battle, both of the Senatorial faction leaders were killed, leaving Octavian to dominate Roman politics and Marc Antony to flee to Egypt in fear of them - despite their former alliance. Octavian quickly defeated the Egyptian fleet, and invaded their mainland, leading the Egyptian Queen Cleopatra, and her new lover Marc Antony, to commit suicide. After Antony's death, the age of the Roman empire began, when Octatvian was renamed Augustus and declared Imperator.

Under the rule of Augustus Caesar, Roman power was secured completely in Iberia, Gaul, Egypt, Germania, and Dacia. When Augustus died, he was succeeded by the variously incompetent, shortsighted, or insane Emperors Tiberus, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. After these men had been rapidly deposed in succession, the Emperor Vespasian came to rule, following his quick defeat of weak rivals in Italy. His rule led to a solid reform of the empire's finances and an even greater reform of the military, that spread the legionary auxiliaries of different Roman provinces across the entire breadth of the Empire - to discourage aid to local rebellions that had previously plagued the Eastern provinces prior to his ascendancy. Despite his vigorous reforms, Vespasian was an older man, and he left the empire to his son Titus after only ten years on the throne.

Titus' rule was even shorter though, and after two years of rebuilding Rome from the disastrous fire under his distant predecessors, he died mysteriously at the age of 41 - to be succeeded by his brother Domitian. Domitian's unfortunately long rule of 15 years was characterized by popular bribery with great civic spectacles, and later incredible paranoia, as well as illegal arrests and executions. Fortunately his rule was cut short, when a conspiracy amongst his family and advisors led to his murder.

After Domitian's death, the next century was one of incredible prosperity in Rome and one of unusually smooth Imperial successions. Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antonius, and Marcus Aurelius all succeeded to the throne within their successor's lifetimes and reigned over the largest extent of Rome's borders in its entire history. Despite growth, prosperity, and a reinvigorated military institution, when Marcus Aurelius' son Commodus began his reign, it began its collapse. Under Commodus, most institutions were renamed for him, and after a fortunately short rule of little more then a decade, he was strangled to death in his sleep.

Commodus' death ushered in a new and unstable dynasty of rulers that would preside over the eventual collapse of the Romans. The founder of the new dynasty was Septimus Severus, a leading nobleman from the Roman city of Leptis Magna on the Libyan coast, who rose to prominence through a family marriage to a prominent Syrian family. After Septimus' death, the only other notable Severian Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus took the throne, and granted Roman citizenship to all peoples of the provinces, effectively equalizing the ethnic classes within the Empire. Antoninus was succeeded rapidly by Macrinus, Elagabalus, and Alexander Severus whose cumulative reigns lasted less then a decade.

When Alexander Severus died, the Roman Empire nearly collapsed, during a period in which more then three dozen Emperors reigned in various different parts of the Empire. Each one rose into the ascendancy through local political prominence, and fell out of it after singular defeat in battle or the minor political machinations of their superior rivals. After this year long period, the Emperor Diocletian was briefly the single Emperor of the Romans, but wouldn't retain the position for long. Realizing that the Empire was effectively ungovernable as a single unit, with so many enemies on so many fronts, he divided the Empire and placed his long time friend Maxinian as the Emperor of the East. After a few years of rule, Maxinian abdicated to a relative Galerius, and Diocletian to Maxentius - though the later was now at odds with the other Roman Empire. In the confusion leading up to the final rule of Lucinius in the West, Carthage was ruled as an independent empire under Domitius Alexander, whose son had been threatened by the challenged West Roman Emperor.

Now, amidst ever growing confusion, Maxinius become the sole ruler of the East when Galerius died, and Constantine first emerges on the scene. Constantine having been previously in the Britons with his father's army, moved into Europe where he defeated Maxinius and allied with Lucinius. His victory over Maxinius and his eventual defeat of Licinius after his betrayal led Constantine to continue on towards a central position in the Eastern Empire, where he established his new capital at Byzantium, naming it Nea Roma and Constantinople. After the reign of more then four dozen emperors, in a span of only decades, Constantine was the ruler of a united empire. Constantine's rule brought great prosperity to the East, but more important to the course of history, he brought Christianity to the whole of the Empire in thanks for what he claimed was heavenly intervention in one of his key victories.

Regardless of Constantine's efforts, however, the Empire would erupt into civil war shortly after his death, with his three sons contending for rule. After a series of battles, Constantine II would begin his rule over the Empire and maintain it for around a decade, before his death and Julian's succession. Julian's rule was ended quickly, however, when his army was defeated in the East, forcing the remainder of his forces to nominate an officer named Jovian to replace him as Emperor. After Jovian's ignamonious return to Rome, another officer named Valentinian came to power, and immediately divided the Empire with his half-brother Valens - who would rule in the East.

Valentinian was succeeded by his son Gratian, who would ruler of a gradually declining Western Empire, during a time of increasing rivalry with the East. When he died, leaving his own son Valentinian II to rule the Western Empire, his supporters were few enough that one of his more popular generals managed to seize the imperial throne. The new Eastern Emperor, however, helped Valentinian regain the throne, but forced him to adopt Christianity completely in the West. Shortly after his successful return, Valentinian II was assassinated by pagan partisans, and another officer named Eugenius ruled briefly in his place - before being deposed by Theodosius in the East. Once more the Empire was united, but it would only be for a year, before Theodosius died.

With Theodosius dead, all sympathetics in the East fell away, and the West was left to the rule of Honorius. Though he would rule successfully for decades until his death, Honorious was incapable of preventing Visigothic invasions in the far West and Vandal incursions all throughout North Africa. In 410, under Honorious, Rome was sacked. Though his rule would last another 13 years, and Latins would remain in power for that time, after his death the rule of Romans over the West Roman Empire was ended. After 423, the only true Romans to continue in their commands, or to eventually rule as kings, were in small pockets of Gaul and the Britons. The Roman Empire, as an ethnically Latin ruled power, was forever ended in the world.


Suggested Reading:

Titus Livius, Ab urbe condita
Polybius, Historiae
Dionysius Halicarnassensis, Rhomaikes Archaiologias
Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War
Adrian Goldsworthy, The Complete Roman Army
Lawrence Keppie, The Making of the Roman Army: From Republic to Empire
Adrian Goldsworthy, Roman Warfare
R.H. Barrows, The Romans

and some worthy links:

Nova Roma (http://www.novaroma.org/calendar/index.html)
Roman Legions (http://web.archive.org/web/20040204225424/webpages.charter.net/brueggeman/table-of-contents.html)


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-Unit Descriptions-


Pre-Marian

Camillian infantry:
The Roman Army at the beginning of the 3rd century BC was the result of the past struggle in which their hegemony over Italy was achieved. In the 4th century BC defeats by invading Celtic tribes, and primarily the long and hard wars with the Samnites, forced the Romans to abandon their former classic hoplite army. To counter the more flexible Samnite infantry in the rough terrain of central Italy, the Romans reformed their army to fight in a similar manipular formation and reequipped the bulk of their infantry. At this time many of the weapons later seen as typically Roman, like the scutum and the pilum, were adopted from other Italian tribes.

Traditionally the early 4th century BC statesman Marvs Fvrivs Camillivs is credited with the introduction of manipular warfare.

Every male roman had the duty to serve in the infantry for 16 years, or 20 years in the case of national emergency, until he had completed his 46th year of life. Excepting those rated high enough by the censor to be members of the ordo equester. Normally every roman must have served at least ten years in the military before he was permitted to hold any political office.

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Accensi: (Reserves)

Accensi are light reserve troops placed behind the Triarii and Rorarii in the legions battle formation. They are too poor to have any real equipment besides a sling, and in most cases too old or not experienced or skilled enough to use this effectively. Still, they are better than nothing.

Historically, the roman infantry of the late 4th and early 3rd century BC was divided by wealth in two groups. Those with the lowest property classification for military service were fighting as light infantry, separated by fighting ability into the Leves, Roarii and Accensi. The second, more wealthy group consisted of those fighting as heavy infantry, separated by their age and fighting ability into Hastati, Principes, and Triarii.

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Rorarii: (Skirmishers)

Rorarii are reserve skirmishers that are placed behind the Triarii in the legions battle formation. They can be used to fill gaps and support wavering lines but they can’t be expected to hold whole sections of the battle line by themselves.

The Rorarii are armed with a hasta spear, javelins of the light Iberian gaesum type, and carry an early version of the scutum. They do not wear armour, but wear a helmet.

Historically, the roman infantry of the late 4th and early 3rd century BC was divided by wealth in two groups. Those with the lowest property classification for military service were fighting as light infantry, separated by fighting ability into the Leves, Roarii and Accensi. The second, more wealthy group consisted of those fighting as heavy infantry, separated by their age and fighting ability into Hastati, Principes, and Triarii.


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Hastati (Early):

The Hastati are the youngest soldiers that wear a full panoply and form the first of the three lines of the battle formation of legionary heavy infantry. They are expected to weaken and tire the enemy, if they cannot break him, before the next line, the Principes, engages. The strict discipline in the Roman army has become one of their keys to success.


Armed with two early Etruscan pila and an Italian short sword, Hastati are protected by an early version of the scutum, a bronze helmet and a single bronze greave on the leading leg. As soon as the enemy comes in range they will throw their pila to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters.

Historically, the legion's Hastati were organised into 15 manipuli, the basic tactical unit of the Roman army. Normally the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.


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Principes (Early):

The principes are disciplined soldiers in the prime of their life and form the second line in a legions battle formation. They engage if the Hastati are unable to break the enemy formation. Having large reserves of fresh troops available on the battlefield to engage in critical moments is one of Roman army’s keys to success, besides the strict discipline.

Armed with a pilum, the hasta thrusting spear, and an Italian short sword, Principes are protected by an early version of the scutum, a bronze helmet, a bronze greave on the leading leg and a small square chestplate, called pectorale, or "heart protector." As soon as the enemy comes in range they will throw their pilum to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters.

Historically, the Principes of a legion were organised in 15 manipuli, the basic tactical unit of the Roman army. Normally the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.


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Triarii (Early):

The Triarii are the oldest and most experienced soldiers of a legion, and formed the third line of heavy infantry. Most often during battle they are kept in reserve, resting on one knee under cover of their shields to stay fresh and protected until they are needed. They are the rock of the legion, covering a "rearward advance" if the heavy infantry assault failed, and an old Roman adage came of their use: "to have come to the Triarii" meant that the situation was dire, indeed.

The early Triarii are equipped in full Greek panoply. They wear a muscled cuirass, a bronze greave on the leading leg, carry a greek clipeus shield, a hoplite sword, and the hasta thrusting spear.

The Triarii still continue to fight like the classical hoplite of the 5th and 4th century BC Etruscan Roman armies. After the Hastati and Principes have retreated through their line, they will form a single massive block and fight in phalanx formation, more suited to stop the enemy and stabilise the line when all hope rest on them.

Historically, the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.


Polybian infantry:
The Romans always had the reputation to be more willing than others to adopt new customs and techniques if they proved useful. Over another century of warfare against more diverse enemies they had optimized the manipular legion and adopted new equipment, and so formed the classical republican army described by the Greek historian Polybios in his Histories.

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Velites: (Fast Skirmishers)

Velites are the legions light infantry. In a pitched battle they will screen the legions main battle line during the advance and harass the enemy. Before the heavy infantry engages trumpeters signal them to retreat through the gaps in the Roman line and reform behind the Triarii, or on the wings with the cavalry. Sometimes they are also directly used to support the cavalry.

The Velites are armed with javelins, a short sword and a small, but strong round shield. They wear no armour besides a plain helmet covered with an animal's (mostly a wolfs) skin. This is mainly used for identification, and to make individuals recognizable to the centurions and tribunes over great distances.

Historically, the Velites were the men who were either too young to fight as Hastati or to poor to pay for equipment. They are all what had remained from the various Roman light infantry classes of the late 4th and early 3rd century BC, replacing the function of the Leves. The roughly 1200 Velites in a legion were not organised in their own manipuli with own officers, instead 20 of them were attached to each manipuli of the other infantry classes.


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Hastati (Late):

The Hastati are the youngest soldiers that wear a full panoply and form the first of the three lines in a legions battle formation. They are expected to weaken and tire the enemy if they cannot break him, before the next line of the Principes engages.

Armed with two pila and a gladius, Hastati are protected by a scutum, a bronze Montefortino helmet, a bronze greave on the leading leg and a mostly square chestplate, called pectorale or "heart protector." As soon as the enemy comes in range they will throw their pila to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters.

The high quality equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman infantry, besides their strict discipline. The scutum is an oval, canvas covered, plywood shield, around 1.2m high, that offers excellent protection against most weapons. The gladius hispaniensis, adapted during the late 3rd century BC conflicts, is a great weapon for fighting in close formations. Its strong, unbending blade has a sharp point to penetrate heavy armour and can deal an effective blow with both edges. So it can be used for stabbing or slashing as well. The pilum, the heavy Roman javelin, is designed to bend after impact so that it is worthless for the enemy and is difficult to remove from shields. Its weight also gives the weapon great penetration capability.

Historically, the legions 1200 Hastati were organised in ten manipuli, the basic tactical unit of the Roman army. Normally the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.

Over many centuries the Romans had the reputation to be more willing than others to adopt new customs and techniques if they proved useful. This was seen as one of their greatest strengths. The Montefortino Helmet was probably of Celtic origin and was adapted during the 3rd Century BC conflicts.


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Principes (Late):

The Principes are the soldiers in the prime of their life and form the second line in a legion's battle formation. They will engage if the Hastati were unable to break the enemy formations. Having large reserves of fresh troops available on the battlefield to engage in critical moments is one of the Roman army’s keys to success.

Armed with two pila and a gladius, the Principes are protected by a scutum, a bronze Montefortino helmet, a bronze greave on the leading leg and now mostly by a coat of lorica hamata (chain mail). As soon as the enemy comes in range they will throw their pila to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters.

The high quality equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman infantry, besides their strict discipline. The scutum is an oval, canvas covered, plywood shield, around 1.2m high, that offers excellent protection against most weapons. The gladius hispaniensis, adapted during the late 3rd century BC conflicts, is a great weapon for fighting in close formations. Its strong, unbending blade has a sharp point to penetrate heavy armour and can deal an effective blow with both edges. So it can be used for stabbing or slashing as well. The pilum, the heavy Roman javelin, is designed to bend after impact so that it is worthless for the enemy and is difficult to remove from shields. Its weight also gives the weapon great penetration capability.

Historically, the legions 1200 Principes were organised in ten manipuli, the basic tactical unit of the Roman army. Normally the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.

Over many centuries the Romans had the reputation to be more willing than others to adopt new customs and techniques if they proved useful. This was seen as one of their greatest strengths. The Montefortino Helmet was probably of Celtic origin and was adapted during the 3rd Century BC conflicts.


https://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6274/romanpremarianlatetriarii5g9zt.th.jpg (https://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romanpremarianlatetriarii5g9zt.jpg)
Triarii (Late):

The 600 Triarii are the oldest and most experienced soldiers of the legion, forming its last reserve, the third line. Most often during battle they rest in reserve on one knee, under cover of their shields, to stay fresh and protected until they are needed. They are the rock of the legion, covering a "rearward advance" if the heavy infantry assault fails, and an old Roman adage came of their use: "to have come to the Triarii" meant that the situation was dire, indeed.

Armed with a hasta thrusting spear and a gladius, Triarii are protected by a scutum, a bronze Montefortino helmet, a bronze greave on the leading leg and now mostly by a coat of lorica hamata (chain mail). They continue to fight with long hasta spears in a close formation more suited to stop the enemy and stabilise the line if all hope rest on them.

The high quality equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman infantry, besides their strict discipline. The scutum is an oval, canvas covered, plywood shield, around 1.2m high, that offers excellent protection against most weapons. The gladius hispaniensis, adapted during the late 3rd century BC conflicts, is a great weapon for fighting in close formations. Its strong, unbending blade has a sharp point to penetrate heavy armour and can deal an effective blow with both edges. So it can be used for stabbing or slashing as well. The pilum, the heavy Roman javelin, is designed to bend after impact so that it is worthless for the enemy and is difficult to remove from shields. Its weight also gives the weapon great penetration capability.

Historically the Triarii were also divided into ten maniples with half the size of those of the Hastati or Principes. Normally the legion advanced in the famous, chessboard like, quinqunx formation. Three lines of heavy infantry with broad gaps between the single manipuli covered by the next lines displaced marching units. This practice gave the Roman army a higher manoeuvrability on the battlefield and made it less dependant upon the terrain than the Greek phalanx. During the battle the gaps allowed beaten or retreating units as well as fresh troops to move through the lines.

Over many centuries the Romans had the reputation to be more willing than others to adopt new customs and techniques if they proved useful. This was seen as one of their greatest strengths. The Montefortino Helmet was probably of Celtic origin and was adapted during the 3rd Century BC conflicts.


Pre-Marian Cavalry

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Eqvites Consvlares: (Consular Cavaly)

Consuls, and other high Roman officials, are escorted by small mounted bodyguards. Most of these horsemen share a similar background and strong social ties with their general, and loyally fight with him as heavy cavalry.

Magnificent, prestigious Greek armour is predominantly used by the Equites Consulares. Most of them wear shining bronze muscle cuirasses, Corinthian helmets, and greaves on both legs. Besides the traditional Roman round parma equestris shield they carry a hasta lance and swords as weapons. Each eques has at least three horses and is accompanied by two grooms.


Historically, during campaigns, the consuls and other leading men of the res publica were accompanied by a group of voluntarii. Personal friends, veterans of former commands or clients, most of them also from the higher classes of Roman society, acting as a bodyguard in the field. The equites were the members of the ordo equester and the sons of the families of the ordo senatorius, the two classes of the Roman nobility, the wealthiest and most influential men. These proud horsemen were the future leading men of Roma.

Normally every Roman must have served at least ten years in the military before he was permitted to hold any political office. The eques had the duty to serve ten years, the infantryman 16 or 20 years in the case of national emergency, until he has completed his 46th year of life.


Post-Marian

Late Republican Infantry
The problem of the late republic to find enough men who fulfilled the property requirements to serve as heavy infantry in the many and continuous wars the masters of the Mediterranean world now had to fight was one of the main reasons that reforms in the army had become inevitable. Earlier attempts to increase to the number of suitable small farmers through land reforms by the gracchi were blocked by senate, as many senators owned great latifundia now sprawling over Italy, by themselves. So all property requirements were given up and volunteers from all social classes were welcomed as well as the conscripts, while the state or their generals paid for their equipment. The senate had refused to bear the incalculable able costs for the veterans so that the generals had to take care of them. The loyalty of these men shifted more and more to charismatic leaders , they were now depending on, preparing the ground for many bloody civil wars of the 1st century BC.


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Cohors Reformata:(Reformed Cohort)

Roman legionaries are now uniformly equipped with two pila, a gladius, and an oval scutum around 1.28m high. Their main armour still remains a coat of lorica hamata (chain mail) and a Montefortino helmet. The high quality of the legions equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman infantry, besides their strict discipline. In battle they will throw their pila as soon as the enemy comes in range to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters.

Historically, the organization of the legion changed at the end of the 1st century BC and all but the heavy infantry disappeared. The Hastati, Principes and Triarii were now all equipped in the same manner and only their names remained. Three of their maniples, each increased in size to 160 men, now formed one cohort, the new main tactical unit of the Roman infantry, besides the now 80 men strong centuria. However, in most times the late republican legions did not reach their theoretical strength, and around 400 men per cohort was far more common. These changes offered much more tactical flexibility to the legion. Instead of being limited to a three line battle formation, the soldiers could be positioned as easily in one, two, or even more lines. A cohort was big enough to operate separated from the main army, to perform smaller tasks independently.

To reduce the legion's vulnerable baggage train and increase the mobility of the troops, the legionaries now had to carry as much of their equipment as possible by themselves. They received the nickname “mules mariani”, the "mules of Marius," for the nearly 50 Kg they carried. The long time they normally had to serve made it possible to train all soldiers to an equally high standard in the whole army. This, and the heavy load they have to carry, gave them their unrivalled endurance. Experts in siege warfare, artillery, and other engineering tasks could be found in the ranks of the legion, and all contubernia, the eight men strong basic logistical unit of the army, were equipped with tools and valli for the fast construction of field fortifications.

After these changes the Roman legionnaires could easily be considered the most disciplined and most versatile heavy infantry in the world.


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Cohors Evocata: (Veterans Cohort)

Cohors Evocata consist of former legionaries that have reenlisted again, forming now a veteran corps within the army. They are liberated from the many routine duties of a normal soldier and their weapons and armour are of high quality. Besides a half ovular scutum, Evocati wear a suit of lorica hamata (chain mail), the new Imperial Gallic iron helmet and two greaves for protection and are fighting like normal legionaries with a gladius and pila.

Historically, the Evocati were a privileged group of former legionaries who volunteered to serve in the army again after being recalled by a general, sometimes years later. They were part of every important army and their number could reach several thousand if a famous and beloved former commander asked for his veterans. Evocati held a higher rank than the ordinary legionary and many of them even had their own horses. Often they were trusted with minor command duties and their chances for promotion to the rank of centurion were excellent.


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Antesignani:

Antesignani are elite legionaries trained to fight outside the heavy infantry’s battle formation. Armed with spears, several light javelins, and a gladius they are more lightly armoured with a simple bronze breastplate instead of lorica hamata, an iron helmet, and carry smaller oval shields instead the heavy scuta to increase their agility. On march the duties of the Antesignani are to cover the columns as well as to scout and secure the area in front of the army. In a battle they can be used to screen the legions advance, to counter enemy skirmishers, or to support the cavalry if no specialised auxiliaries are available.

Historically, the organization of the legion changed at the end of the 1st century BC and all but the heavy infantry disappeared. The Hastati, Principes and Triarii were now all equipped in the same manner and only their names remained. Three of their maniples, each increased in size to 160 men, now formed one cohort, the new main tactical unit of the Roman infantry, besides the now 80 men strong centuria. These changes offered much more tactical flexibility to the legion. Instead of being limited to a three line battle formation, the soldiers could be positioned as easily in one, two or even more lines. A cohort was big enough to operate separated from the main army, to perform smaller tasks independently.

After the social war the former socii received Roman citizenship and were now recruited into the legions. However, the disappearance of the Velites and Pedites Extraordinarii reduced the legion's abilities and made it dependent upon external light infantry support. In the 1st century BC it became common to train some elite legionaries as Antesignani to fill this gap.


Early Imperial Infantry

During the decades of his rule following the end of the civil war, Augustus reformed the imperial army significantly. In many fields a systematic approach replaced the improvisation of the late republican era. Most important was that the auxilia, with its indispensable cavalry and archer units, became a regular arm of the professional army and its second base.

The length of service for all soldiers was finally set to 26 years for fleet soldiers, 25 years for soldiers of the auxilia, 20 years for legionaries, and 16 years for praetorians. After their discharge they received a cash bonus, the praemia militare, or a small piece of land. The veterans from the auxilia and the fleet were rewarded with Roman citizenship, and a diploma to prove it. Also, medical treatment was improved and all units were now supplied with physicians.


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Vigiles: (Town Watch)

Vigiles are paramilitary units that mostly act as fire fighters and night watches, and sometimes have additional police duties. Most of them are lightly armed with a spear and a gladius and carry an ovular shield and a bronze Montefortino helmet for protection. With this equipment they can be used as an emergency defence, but these men are not soldiers and they should not be expected to defeat real warriors on even terms.

Historically, Augustus established the lightly armed cohortes vigilum, commanded by the praefectus vigilum, an equestrian officer, in Roma as fire-fighters in the late 1st century BC. They replaced privately organized units of slaves that fulfilled their job since the late republic. The finally seven roughly 500 men strong cohorts oft vigiles mostly consisted of freedmen, and later in 26 AD these received citizenship after six years of service. Every cohort had to take care of two of Romas 14 districts. They mainly patrolled at night through the streets to look out for unsupervised fires and other unpleasant things.

Other cities of all sizes in the empire had their own small forces of vigiles. In places with no military garrison they also served as a kind of police, a rare institution in the ancient world.


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Cohors Imperatoria: (Imperial Cohort)

Legionary infantry is still the backbone of the imperial army and it is now easily considered as the most disciplined and most versatile heavy infantry in the world. Their broad training and famous discipline offers them many tactical possibilities in battle, but normally legionaries will fight in the traditional way: throw their pila as soon as the enemy comes in range to soften his formation and then engage at close quarters. While not designed to do so, the pilum can be used like a normal spear as well to make it possible for the legionaries to defend themselves more readily against heavy cavalry attacks.

The legion's high quality equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman infantry, besides their strict discipline. Legionaires are now equipped with Imperial gallic iron helmets, mostly lorica hamata and a now a half ovular scutum. They are armed with a type mainz gladius, two pila and a short dagger called a pugio.

Historically, experts in siege warfare, artillery, and other engineering tasks could be found in the ranks of the legion, and all contubernia, the eight men strong basic logistical units of the army, were equipped with tools and valli for the fast construction of field fortifications. To reduce the legion's vulnerable baggage train and increase the mobility of the troops, the legionnaires had to carry as much of their equipment as possible by themselves; nearly 50 Kg. As a welcomed side effect this gave them, combined with their regular training, an unrivalled endurance.

In the early principate the organisation of the legion slightly changed by attaching a small group of 120 horsemen. They operated as scouts and messengers, screened the legion on the march and some of them formed the bodyguard for the legatus legionis, the legions senatorial commander.


https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1758/romanpostmariancohorspraeto9zr.th.jpg (https://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romanpostmariancohorspraeto9zr.jpg)
Cohors Praetoriana: (Praetorian Cohort)

The Cohortes Praetoriae are the highest ranked units in the whole imperial army. Their infantry is the core of the Emperor's Guard in Roma and is considered the best in the empire. Praetorians are equipped as, and fight in, the same manner as the normal legionaries, but their look is often somewhat more magnificent. Their lack of experience in actual combat is compensated by excellent, continuous training, and capable officers. High quality equipment has become one of the great strengths of the Roman heavy infantry, besides their strict discipline. The soldiers of the cohortes praetoriae wear coats of lorica hamata, greaves on both legs, imperial Gallic iron helmets and half ovalur scuta for protection. Their weapons, the same as in contemporary legions, are a type mainz gladius, two pila and a short dagger called the pugio.

Historically, generals in the late republic began to form cohorts of elite legionaries for their own protection, and as an elite tactical reserve. They were called praetorians for guarding the "Praetorium," the tent or house of a Roman Army commanding officer. After the civil war Augustus reformed his praetorians into a permanent guard with nine cohorts of 500 infantry and 90 cavalry. Each of them was organized independently and commanded by an equestrian tribune. Three were stationed in Roma, the others in surrounding towns in Latium and Umbria.

In the early Principate, Praetorians were mostly recruited in central Italy and had to serve 16 years under excellent conditions and better pay compared to the frontier legions. After their discharge they received a high cash bonus, the praemia militare, or a small piece of land. Later, during Augustus' reign, the praetorian guard was commanded by two, and finally one praefect of equestrian rank, soon one of the most powerful men in the empire. In 23 AD, Tiberius, influenced by his praetorian prefect Seianus, concentrated all cohorts in a single fort in Roma on the Viminal hill.


Post-Marian Cavalry

https://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3949/romanpremarianequitessingul9fy.th.jpg (https://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romanpremarianequitessingul9fy.jpg)
Eqvites Singvlares: (General Bodyguards)

Equites Singulares are provincial horse guards formed with the best horsemen a regional army has to offer. They accompany commanders of regional armies into battle. These units are mostly equipped and fight in the manner as normal Roman cavalry. However sometimes more magnificent armour, like muscled cuirasses is worn. Besides the cuirasses their riders wear greaves, iron helmets and long hexagonal shields for protection, while armed with a spatha long sword and a hasta lance. Like most of the imperial army’s cavalry, they use the famous four horned saddle, which enables a firm seat in almost all occasions. In battle the equites singulares often proved to be one of the most powerful units. When a capable general leads them personally they can turn the fight in critical moments.

Historically, from the early principate onwards, imperial governors, who normally also commanded all the military stationed in their province, were protected by their own horse guards, mostly raised from the regular alae units in the local army. Contrary to the men selected for the later equites singulares augusti, these picked horsemen remained in the lists of their original units and were only temporary transferred to the guards.

Trained to similar high standards as the legions they should cooperate with, this units were organized and equipped in a roman manner and commanded by former legion centurions and later mostly equestrian officers. Their soldiers were recruited among the peregrines, free provincials without roman citizenship, who were either volunteers or drafted. However the transformation of the auxilia did not happen over night and the irregular contingents supplied by allied tribes and vassal states did not disappear at once. While the large majority of the alae, pure cavalry units where the need for regular forces was more urgent, were reorganized during Augustus reign the infantry followed slower until the midst of the 1st century AD.


And a few screenshots of the Romani in action:

Punic Wars:

https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7544/punicwars11pd.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punicwars11pd.jpg)https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/926/punicwars29qb.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punicwars29qb.jpg)https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7047/punicwars37bd.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punicwars37bd.jpg)

Gallic Wars:

https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6548/romegaul14lc.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romegaul14lc.jpg)https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3720/romegaul27pq.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romegaul27pq.jpg)https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3212/romegaul35ju.th.jpg (https://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romegaul35ju.jpg)



https://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6133/dividerrome4cf.jpg

Religio Romana

Religion was one of the most important things in life for the Romans. In fact, religion as we now know and call it comes to us from the Romans themselves, being one of the first people to have a word for all the aspects of worshipping any number of gods. This was the word Religio, a word with no equivalent in the Hellenistic world or any of the “civilized” nations of the Mediterranean.

Every Roman was extremely religious, from the lowest plebe to the greatest senators, kings, and emperors. It was even believed that the public worship represented the Roman state itself. And of course to make the state great, the gods had to be respected both publicly and privately. In Rome, this was known as the pax deorum, or the ‘pact’ or ‘peace’ with the gods. This pact entailed that the gods should always be respected; Whoever failed to respect the pact would incur the wrath of the Gods.

For the Romans to understand the will of the gods there was a whole system in place of various priestly colleges, such as the pontiffs, flamines, aruspici, auguri, and many others. The head of this system was the Pontifex Maximus, originally the king, then a powerful Roman in the republic and eventually the Emperor. The pontiffs where those just under the Pontifex Maximus. The Flamines where each devoted to a certain deity, and would hold the public rites on the day of veneration of that deity. The aruspici were the priests who specialized in reading the intestines of the sacrificed animals to discover the will of the gods. The auguri would observe natural phenomena, such as the flight of birds, or the striking of lighting, and from that draw their auspici, or omens. Before anything important was carried out, from battle to marriage, Romans would always consult the auguri and auspici for favourable omens. If these omens where bad, terrible things could happen. For example, Crassus in 53 AD ignored an omen before the battle at Carrhae; An old woman offered him figs, or Cauneas in Latin. Or was she telling him Cave ne as, “Be careful, do not go”? Either way, Crassus went to battle and died in one of the most disastrous defeats in Roman history. In extreme cases, such as the famine in 496 BC, a series of prophetic writings known as the Sibylline books would be consulted for advice on what to do (In this case, it was advised to adopt the Greek goddess Demeter, known to the Romans as Ceres), but, unlike the Greeks, oracles would never be consulted.

The Romans were quite open to the gods of other nations, often adopting them into the official state religion, or letting other religions practice freely under Roman rule (As long as they were not a threat to Roman dominance, of course). In fact, there would even be a festival in Rome periodically known as the evocatio, where the Romans invited over the gods of hostile cities, and tried to convince them to abandon their subjects. They themselves worshipped twelve main gods, known as the dii consentes (Iuppiter, Mars, Iuno, Ceres, Neptunus, Vulcanus, Vesta, Diana, Mercurius, Apollo, Venus and Minerva), and at the height of Rome there were about 30 thousand gods in the Religio Romana! Initially, these gods were just numina; a will, or divine manifestation, with no physical representation. Only after prolonged contact with the Greeks and Etruscans did the gods slowly adopt a physical form. Numina continued to exist throughout the history of Rome, though, and it was the numina which the augurs and aruspici tried to interpret by watching the flight of the birds, or the layout of the intestine of a sacrificed goat.

Another important aspect of Roman religion was the domestic worship of the Lares and Penates. The Lares and Penates were the family ancestors, and it was they who watched over the property and the well being of the family. The Lares were the family ghosts who protected, and were the rightful owners of, the family's land. Trespassing into a neighbors land was therefore not only wrong, but it was also sacrilege. And who knows what the ancestral ghosts could do to the trespasser? Losing the lands of one’s ancestors to someone stronger would also mean shame and dishonour on the family, and the expulsion of the Lares from their lands. The Penates, on the other hand, were responsible for keeping the hearth lit, keeping the families food stores safe, and making sure the cooking of the food went well. Every day it was the responsibility of the pater familias to make a small sacrifice of food or flowers on the altar of the family gods, to assure their benevolence and continued vigilance of the family.

So make sure the omens are favourable, and conquer the world for the glory of Roma!

Roman Gods

Iuppiter
Iuppiter the heavenly, the thunderer; Iuppiter, the King of the Gods. It is he who presides over the fate of the Romans, who is father of all laws and social order. As the tutelary God of Rome, he was known as Iuppiter Optimus Maximus. As a warrior, he was Iuppiter Stator, who protected the city, the state, and exhorted Rome’s soldiers on to victory.

It was believed that Iuppiter had caused a shield to fall from the skies as a talisman of Roman power, which was kept with 11 other copies in the Regia, the office of the Pontifex Maximus, the head of the state religion.

To him was dedicated the Roman Month of Quincitilis, the fifth month of the Roman year.

Mars
Mars, the son of Iuno and Iuppiter. Mars was the Roman god of battle. He was said to be the protector of the soldier on the battlefield, and was also the most widely worshipped Roman god, since he was said to have fathered Romulus and Remus.

Legend has it that Mars came to the Vestal Virgin Rhea Silvia, forced into that position by her uncle Numitor, who had overthrown her father Amulius, the King of Alba Long. From Mars, Rhea Silvia bore the twins Romulus and Remus. Numitor ordered a servant to kill the twins, but out of mercy the servant put the twins in a basket and placed them on the Tiber, where the River God took pity on them and gave them to a she-wolf. The she-wolf raised the twins, until they were found by a couple of farmers. When they reached adulthood, they reinstated Amulius as the King of Alba Longa, and went on to found a settlement on the Palatine hill on the 21st of April, 753BC. One day Remus jumped the citiy's unfinished walls, which was considered an omen of ill fortune, and Romulus instinctively killed him. He then proclaimed himself King, and named the city Rome.

Rome was also where the lances of Mars, the hastae Martiae, were kept. Legend had it that any movement of the lances meant war, and traditionally before declaring war there was a ritual moving of the lances.

Tradition also had it that before marching to war, the army would assemble at the temple of Mars Gradius (He who proceeds the army into battle).

To Mars was dedicated the first month of the Roman year, the month of Marti, as well as the month of October, the 8th month of the Roman year.

Vesta
Vesta was one of the sisters of Zeus, the virgin goddess of the hearth and family affairs. Both Neptune and Apollo had asked for her hand in marriage, but she refused them both, preferring to stay virgin. The symbol of her virginity was also the symbol she was associated with; the eternal flame tended by the Vestales, her virgin priestesses. Vesta watched over and protected the state, the family, and was also known as the godess of the earth.

Vesta was one of the earliest Roman gods, possibly adopted by the Romans from their Sabine neighbors. She was later to be associated with the Greek goddess Hestia, although unlike Hestia Vesta was rarely, almost never, represented in human form; Something which the Romans had taken from the Greeks, since before the Roman Gods had no personal history or traits, they were just divinities.

The most sacred days to Vesta were on the 1st of Martius, the first day in the old Roman year and the day her eternal flame was renewed, and also from Junius 7th to the 15th. On the 7th, the curtains of her temple in Rome were opened, and it was the only time women were allowed to perform sacrifices at her temple.

The Roman month sacred to Vesta was December, the tenth month in the Roman year.

Ceres
Ceres was the Roman goddess of growing plants and motherly love. She was assisted in her agricultural duties by twelve smaller deities, one for each major aspect of the harvest. Ceres, by Jupiter, was the mother of Prosperina, the wife of Pluto who spent half the year with Pluto in the underworld, and whose return for the other half of the year heralded the coming of Spring. Ceres was also the Patron god of Sicily, and she begged Jupiter to put Sicily in the heavens, resulting in the constellation of Sicilia (Modern constellation of Triangulum).

Ceres was not an original Roman God, being adopted by the Romans on advice from the Sibylline Books during a devastating famine in 496 BC. She was adopted directly from the Greek Pantheon, being the Roman equivalent to Demeter.

Ceres was usually considered a god of the plebes, due to her extensive worship among farmers. Her primary festival was held from 12th Aprilis to 19th Aprilis, and known as the Cerealia. One of the most peculiar forms of religious rituals was practiced for her favour as well: This consisted in tying burning rags to the tails of foxes, and letting them loose in the Circus Maximus.

The month sacred to Ceres was Sextilis, the sixth month in the Roman year.

Iuno
Ivno was sister and wife to Jupiter, and principally the goddess who took care of the family and childbirth. As Ivno Regina, she was the Queen of the gods; As Juno Moneta, the protector of Roman finances; And as Ivno Lucina, she performed the aforementioned task of protecting the family and childbirth.

It was said that in the Gallic sack of Roman in the year 390 BC, the Gauls attempted to scale the citadel, but the Geese at Iuno’s temple began squawking, waking the Roman defenders. From then on, Ivno was seen as the protector of Rome, and the Roman Mint was actually attached to her temple. Many Roman coins bear her face on one side. Of course, the truth about the Gallic sack is that the Romans were completely defeated, and since the Gauls had no interest in ruling the city, they left after taking all they could carry. (Gallic legend has it that they left due to the lack of cleanliness of the city, being unable to bear the stench)

On the first day of March, the Matronalia was celebrated in honour of Iuno. There would have been much feasting and dancing, and husbands would give gifts to their wives. The wives traditionally wore their hair down on this day, and also nothing with a knot in it, to symbolize nothing heeding safe childbirth.

The Roman month sacred to Ivno was Ivnivs, the fourth month in the Roman year, as well as Februarius, the last Roman month. Ivnivs was also considered the best month to marry, and for many people June is still the best time in the year to get married.

Minerva
Minerva was one of Ivppiter's daughters, as well as one of the earliest Roman goddesses. She was the patron of the arts, the inventor of music, and also the goddess of military prowess, doctors, and medicine.

Minerva was originally an Etruscan goddess who was assimilated by the Romans. Later, she would be associated with the Greek goddess Athena, and took on much of Athena’s history and personality. Like Athena, she was born from the head of Ivppiter (Or Zeus in Athena’s case). Her mother was the Titan goddess of wisdom Metis, who Iuppiter turned into a fly and swallowed. Metis lived in his head, and there forged Minerva’s weapons and armour, all the while giving Ivppiter a rather nasty headache. Eventually, from Ivppiters head sprang a fully grown and clothed Minerva.

In 207 BC, a guild of poets and actors was created to make votive offerings to Minerva at her temple on the Aventine hill.

Minerva was celebrated on March 19, during a series of known as the Quinquatria.


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These are some of the sights you might find while you are in the neighborhood of the Romani:

https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/246/romebuild18rc.th.jpg (https://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romebuild18rc.jpg)https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3632/romebuild21rb.th.jpg (https://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romebuild21rb.jpg)https://img308.imageshack.us/img308/6185/romani55db.th.jpg (https://img308.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romani55db.jpg)https://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2726/romebuild48zg.th.jpg (https://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romebuild48zg.jpg)


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Here is a little special treat from the traiters team ~;) :

https://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1912/dentatus5jf.th.jpg (https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dentatus5jf.jpg)https://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1815/catouticensis8it.th.jpg (https://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catouticensis8it.jpg)https://img374.imageshack.us/img374/8731/catulus6js.th.jpg (https://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catulus6js.jpg)https://img71.imageshack.us/img71/9098/atrox5ly.th.jpg (https://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atrox5ly.jpg)https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/10/rome4heir4qp.th.jpg (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rome4heir4qp.jpg)

Some of you might also want to look back at our Features and Gameplay (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=889192&postcount=1) preview, to see some of the surprises we are preparing regarding Roman triumphs.


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Plus, the campaign map with factions released so far:
https://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1696/mapfactionsreleasedsofar0lq.th.jpg (https://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapfactionsreleasedsofar0lq.jpg)


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And we can’t forget the small .sig to prove your renewed allegiance to EB:

https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6421/logoromans1small5wg.jpg

We heartily invite our fans to use these sigs. They’re here for you, and we delight to see them be used by our great fans!


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We hope you’ve enjoyed this week’s update!

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Evropa Barbarorvm ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Evropa Barbarorvm TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.


Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Evropa Barbarorvm team.

cdbavg400
09-10-2005, 21:20
wow

Steppe Merc
09-10-2005, 21:22
Hah, my feeling exactly. Welcome to the forum, cdbavg400. ~:grouphug:

jerby
09-10-2005, 21:22
good god!

Krusader
09-10-2005, 21:32
Anyone calling Evropa Barbarorvm a barbarian-centric MOD from now on, will be a troll ~:)

khelvan
09-10-2005, 21:33
Anyone calling Evropa Barbarorvm a barbarian-centric MOD from now on, will be a troll ~:)Oh, anyone calling EB a barbarian-centric mod were always trolls; now this is merely self-evident. ~:cool:

Fabolous
09-10-2005, 21:36
This is so good I feel the need to say so on two forums. Beautiful work all around. The best faction so far, imo. This is showing how good EB will be.
Side note, this preview took my 56k forever to load.

Spitful
09-10-2005, 21:38
Halleluiah, it ahs finally happened!!!!!!!!!!

spirit_of_rob
09-10-2005, 21:40
holy fjhgihgert mother of gjhguhfgf

i want it now!

khelvan
09-10-2005, 21:43
As an aside, this faction is taking up more than double the model slots of any other faction, close to triple, as well as three separate reform events, and numerous other specials that no other faction will have. The military of ancient Rome takes extra space to show properly, and while there have been a few grumblings here or there at the number of models that Rome gets compared to other factions, we have always been committed to present it properly.

Rome will be shown in her full glory, as we have always intended, from the very beginning. Let there be no doubt that our intentions, from the very start, were to show all factions and cultures as they should be shown. That we had to sacrifice units elsewhere to show Rome should only underline how dedicated we are to a proper representation of all factions.

Ignoramus
09-10-2005, 21:45
Amazing, simply amazing!

Steppe Merc
09-10-2005, 21:46
The military of ancient Rome takes extra space to show properly, and while there have been a few grumblings here or there at the number of models that Rome gets compared to other factions, we have always been committed to present it properly.
~D
Now looking at these units, my old objections do seem quite weak, however. ~;)

Han
09-10-2005, 21:56
~:eek: dang nice infantry. one of the best designed infantry. 5 thumbs up ~:cool:

Bouchious
09-10-2005, 22:09
beautiful man! 3 times amount of units to any other factions and 3 reforms! ~:eek:

kayapó
09-10-2005, 22:09
This is so good I feel the need to say so on two forums. Beautiful work all around. The best faction so far, imo. This is showing how good EB will be.
Side note, this preview took my 56k forever to load.

We actually had to choose some screenshots to take out. We had reached the board limits for images in a single post. ~;)

Hope you all like this one... ~:cheers:

jerby
09-10-2005, 22:10
I just love the equites-singulares.

btw. how did you pull of the polybain reform?

altough i dont get the timeline. will the Cammillian infantry be in the campaign?
what's the trigger for the reforms?

khelvan
09-10-2005, 22:11
For now, the triggers are simply dates.

jerby
09-10-2005, 22:12
wich dates?

as a side-note: the cavalry you see in the third-pic of the 'punic wars' the white one wiht teh 2h-lance and a strapped shield: you might wanna change the place the shield is held, because right now it 'collides' when the animation is used. the shield is pointlessly resting on the horse. just to help.

VandalCarthage
09-10-2005, 22:18
I love that you have to scoll 9 tenths of the way down the page to reach comments ~D

khelvan
09-10-2005, 22:28
wich dates?

as a side-note: the cavalry you see in the third-pic of the 'punic wars' the white one wiht teh 2h-lance and a strapped shield: you might wanna change the place the shield is held, because right now it 'collides' when the animation is used. the shield is pointlessly resting on the horse. just to help.Well, for instance, we're using 107 BC for the Marian Reforms at the moment. Later we'll change these to be triggers based on factors that led to the army historically reforming.

Some sacrifices must be made to make the two-handed animations, there is no getting around this, and one of these is shield clipping.

jerby
09-10-2005, 22:30
yeah..and there are only 4 comments ~;)

further Q's:
here's the pic:
https://img380.imageshack.us/img380/9335/things9vq.th.jpg (https://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=things9vq.jpg)
1: what's with teh shield?
2: what that golden blob next to the horse's head
3: will you be redoing generals as well??

khelvan
09-10-2005, 22:33
1: what's with teh shield?
2: what that golden blob next to the horse's head
3: will you be redoing generals as well??1) As I said, clipping is an unfortunate sacrifice we make to create our two-handed animations.

2) It is a gold plate on the horse's forehead.

3) Yes, generals are the lowest priority of all units.

jerby
09-10-2005, 22:46
sorry for double posting 1 Q.
why can't you chnage the holding position of teh shield? right now it's "strapped" around the wrist. why not strap it above the elbow?
mayube historical accuracy will be "less" but at least it wont clip.

Marinakis
09-10-2005, 23:21
Is it just me or the Itallians and Greeks a little to white, they look almost nortic.

Shouldnt they be a mix beween how they are now and the libyan-phoenicians


P.S. 10/10 on the romans, 20/10 on EB as a whole so far

Divinus Arma
09-10-2005, 23:22
~:cheers: :balloon2: ~:cheers: :balloon2:

yaaayyyyyy!!!!!


Looks great!

I can't help but notice the biography... Is that going to be on a few starting characters, or will that pop up later too?

Great job! I also want it now. ~D

Marinakis
09-10-2005, 23:23
~:cheers: :balloon2: ~:cheers: :balloon2:

yaaayyyyyy!!!!!


Looks great!

I can't help but notice the biography... Is that going to be on a few starting characters, or will that pop up later too?

Great job! I also want it now. ~D
oo good question, i second that

econ21
09-10-2005, 23:35
Brilliant stuff. I am very happy to see you've put some Imperial units in. I'm not sure I'll ever make it to the required date, but it's nice to see some iconic legions and Praetorians. Plus some other units I'd never heard of, as usual! I can't wait, but then again - we're running out of factions to preview, so hopefully we don't have to wait much longer. ~:cheers:

vizigothe
09-10-2005, 23:45
i have been waiting for this!
3 reforms! simply awesome

DemonArchangel
09-10-2005, 23:56
~:eek: Oh
My
.....

......
.....
...God

AggonyDuck
09-11-2005, 00:45
Those Cohors Evocata look so wonderful. I've found myself a new fav unit. Will be fun to use them in campaign too. ~:)

Han
09-11-2005, 00:59
ya I gotta admit they are all missing the redness I usually see in Roman armies ~:confused: looks mad white lol ~D but the Cohorts looks hot man... ~:eek:

Steppe Merc
09-11-2005, 01:05
Jerby, rember that most two handed lancers won't have this problem. Few bothered with shields.

Big_John
09-11-2005, 01:10
Well, for instance, we're using 107 BC for the Marian Reforms at the moment. Later we'll change these to be triggers based on factors that led to the army historically reforming.can the triggers have multiple conditions? and can there be multiple instances of trigger conditions for a given event?

Malrubius
09-11-2005, 01:18
I can't help but notice the biography... Is that going to be on a few starting characters, or will that pop up later too?

We would like to do it for every general present at the start of the game, but we don't have enough information for all of them to merit a full biography. Later generals will have names randomly given to them by the game engine, so they wouldn't match historical figures.

octavian
09-11-2005, 01:20
looks awesome guys!! :D


just a note on one of the traits... "-1 to unrest (has a negative effect on public order)" now correct me if im wrong but shouldn't it either be, "+1 to unrest" or "has a postive effect on public order"

0ct

RandyKapp
09-11-2005, 01:30
Sweet

Also notice how one of the occultus sigs has turned into a roman sig.

Reverend Joe
09-11-2005, 01:30
"Tell me, is something eluding you, sunshine- is this not what you expected to see?" ~D

Beautiful job with the Romans. Ave Khelvan, moritvri te salvtamvs! (the only thing I remember from latin class)

Malrubius
09-11-2005, 01:34
just a note on one of the traits... "-1 to unrest (has a negative effect on pubic order)" now correct me if im wrong but shouldn't it either be, "+1 to unrest" or "has a postive effect on public order"

Yeah, you're right, thanks for pointing that out. It should be "+1 to unrest (has a negative effect on public order)." Oops, can't blame anybody for that one but myself. :embarassed:

Shigawire
09-11-2005, 01:36
Octavian: pubic order? What's that, meticulous combing of the pubic hair into a quincunx?
~D

Ok.. ok.. sorry for the primitive humor.. carry on.. :book:

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 02:36
We would like to do it for every general present at the start of the game, but we don't have enough information for all of them to merit a full biography. Later generals will have names randomly given to them by the game engine, so they wouldn't match historical figures.

Thanks for answering my question Malrubius! So, if I understand correctly, you will have a few biographies written for various characters at the start of the game. Is that correct?

By the way, I am totally intrigued by the trait system you guys talked about in the "features and gameplay" preview. Specifically:


To accomplish this, a new system was developed, where each general has a set of Ability and Personality stats, similar to what you might find in a role-playing game. These 6 primary traits are the backbone of the EB system, and they affect the acquisition of many of the other traits and even ancillaries.

I am dying to know more. 6 primary traits? Can you please elaborate?

Also, I think you are a genius man! Thanks for joining EB! Is your trait mod compatible with RTR6? I am playing that until EB hits the shelves.


Oh, and one more note: Khelvan, these previews will go great in a downloadable read-me attachment. If you could throw it on PDF and make it "pretty", it would put Prima's little guide to shame! Do you have someone on this or could I contribute in some way putting stuff together? I'll be happy to elaborate on my qualifications as an asynchronous distance technology-centric project coordinator if you need me to. Yes, I have a life other than alcohol and TW. ~D

VandalCarthage
09-11-2005, 02:38
asynchronous distance technology-centric project coordinator

Isn't that like 'telecommunications foreign marketing director of technology and development?' A title for a job that doesn't really do or mean anything ~D

Alexander the Pretty Good
09-11-2005, 02:40
asldkfjl...

asdjf;aksjdflha...

a;lkdjr;lawheraa23423JUSDF...

:help: ~:eek:

What was that sound? Oh, yeah - the dropping of jaws across the globe.

CA, a "dozen" modders just made you look like crap. :no:

~:eek:

~:eek:

~:eek:

:book:

Holy Roma Preview, Batman!

~:eek:

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 02:52
Isn't that like 'telecommunications foreign marketing director of technology and development?' A title for a job that doesn't really do or mean anything ~D


hahahahahahhahahahahaha

no



~D

Malrubius
09-11-2005, 03:31
Thanks for answering my question Malrubius! So, if I understand correctly, you will have a few biographies written for various characters at the start of the game. Is that correct?

Yep, you're correct. After that point, you'll just have to make your own history ~;)




I am dying to know more. 6 primary traits? Can you please elaborate?

As you may have seen in the screenshots of generals, we have measurements of things like intelligence, charisma, selfishness, etc. An intelligent general is more likely to make a good mathematician, for example.



Also, I think you are a genius man! Thanks for joining EB! Is your trait mod compatible with RTR6? I am playing that until EB hits the shelves.


No genius here, it's more like building something with Lego blocks. I have certain types of blocks I can put together to build something that someone like Teleklos or Ranika (to name a couple among many) has described for me. Anybody who has the time to waste could do the same things I've done.

I'm happy to be doing this for EB, and I'm glad they invited me to join. ~D




Check the GAFHMod thread for compatibility issues: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=872216&postcount=23

Shigawire
09-11-2005, 03:40
We're happy to have you aboard!

Danest
09-11-2005, 03:40
Hmm, interesting. So if I understand, the Triarii "upgrade" from breastplates to chainmail. This might be the first time I've got a real chance to actually learn things from a viceo game that I haven't seen in too many books (I'm sure they're out there though, obviously). The breastplates were bronze, right, and that was the "problem with them I assume? Middle ages/rennaisance actually went the opposite, moving from chain to solid armor, yes? - but then both were probably iron. Oh, and man, those poor early hastati must have suffered horrible casualties if they were sent in first against a heavy phalanx.

kayapó
09-11-2005, 03:49
No genius here, it's more like building something with Lego blocks. I have certain types of blocks I can put together to build something that someone like Teleklos or Ranika (to name a couple among many) has described for me. Anybody who has the time to waste could do the same things I've done. I'm happy to be doing this for EB, and I'm glad they invited me to join. ~D

He is being modest...

And I can say that I'm happy to help him out with this stuff. ~:cheers:

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 04:43
As you may have seen in the screenshots of generals, we have measurements of things like intelligence, charisma, selfishness, etc. An intelligent general is more likely to make a good mathematician, for example.



Okay. I saw on each of the characters here (And on the features/gameplay preview) the following two traits:

1. Unselfish/Optimistic/Loyal
2. Intelligent/Charismatic/Vigorous

So, I am assuming that each new character is born with two traits that determine everything else, and that these two traits are selected at random from a number of other traits, each of which is incompatible with a trait in the same category.

In other words, there are two base trait strings that are compatible with each other. The first trait string determines selfishness, life outlook, and loyalty while the second trait string determines intelligence, charisma, and vitality.

As an example, a character can be born with the traits:

Unselfish/Optimistic/Loyal and Intelligent/Charismatic/Vigorous

but not

Unselfish/charismatic/Loyal and Intelligent/optimistic/vigorous


I also noticed that these traits are generally one or the other. A character is either selfish or unselfish, charismatic or uncharismatic, loyal or unloyal.

This leads me to guess that there are

0/0/0, 1/0/0, 0/1/0, 0/0/1, 1/1/0, 0/1/1, 1/1/1, 1/0/1 = Eight possibilities for each trait category. Combines this with a second base trait category and you have either Eight x 2 = 16 or probably, if you want to be really complicated (which I suspect since this EB):

000000, 100000, 010000, 001000, 000100, 000010, 000001, 110000, 101000, 100100, 100010, 100001, 111000, 110100, 110010, 110001, 111100, 111010, 111001, 111110, 111101, 111111, 011111, 101111, 110111, and so on... wow!!

Many base trait options. Is that right?

From here, one of these many base trait possibilities will allow or restrict the emergence of attribute-conferring trait strings and ancilliaries.

So an intelligent character may gain ancilliaries like "brilliant inventor" and trait strings like bureaucrat-good bureaucrat-and so on.

I am also assuming that the base traits are always born traits, confer little by way of attributes themselves, and do not change or develop like a string.


Am I on the right path at least a little?

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 04:51
Oh and my math is rusty. Wouldn't it be 8x8 = 64 possible base trait combinations? Or 6x6? :dizzy2:

Either way it's alot. ~:eek: And I don't have an edit button.

TheBagelmeister
09-11-2005, 04:52
Wow, I've been waiting for awhile. Neato. Each new thing (including this) makes me can't wait until EB is ready, atleast for the Open Beta.

I do like how now Rome is in a single faction, as the multi-faction thing doesn't quite work out so great in some ways. Especially that instead of focusing on a single area, Rome will need to be treated like any other faction, multiple fronts. ~;)

Hm, how are the faction leaders going to work? The traditional family system in the game won't work now quite as well, unless Rome is starting out as a kingdom. ~:confused:

Malrubius
09-11-2005, 04:53
Am I on the right path at least a little?


Yes, you are. But we actually have 6 "primary" traits, and we just use 2 traits to display the different combinations. They take up less space that way. Although I've seen that you can have at least 64 traits displayed, it gets annoying to have to keep scrolling down to see them all. :wink:

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 04:57
Yes, you are. But we actually have 6 "primary" traits, and we just use 2 traits to display the different combinations. They take up less space that way. Although I've seen that you can have at least 64 traits displayed, it gets annoying to have to keep scrolling down to see them all. :wink:

I see. That makes sense. So they are "on" or "off", huh? Intelligent or unintelligent, rather than: complete idiot, dull bulb, less than average, average, intelligent, gifted, genius?

khelvan
09-11-2005, 05:15
Hmm, interesting. So if I understand, the Triarii "upgrade" from breastplates to chainmail. This might be the first time I've got a real chance to actually learn things from a viceo game that I haven't seen in too many books (I'm sure they're out there though, obviously). The breastplates were bronze, right, and that was the "problem with them I assume? Middle ages/rennaisance actually went the opposite, moving from chain to solid armor, yes? - but then both were probably iron. Oh, and man, those poor early hastati must have suffered horrible casualties if they were sent in first against a heavy phalanx.
Well, keep in mind, we're trying to describe the evolution of warfare from the Etrusco-Roman army of the 6th century BC into the Imperial legion everyone knows and loves. The muscled cuirass was a product of hoplite warfare, which generally involved inflexible formations duking it out. The change in equipment followed hand in hand with a change in tactics, to make the Roman army more flexible and maneuverable.

I am sure that others can more fully explain the advantages and disadvantages of the Celtic-style chain mail that, for quite some time, became the standard armor of the Roman legion.

The timing of this change can be (and is, if you check our TWC thread) debated, but what is for sure is that the Servian army where the first class fought as hoplites eventually evolved into the Polybian legion with the Hastati-Principes-Triarii/Velites combination everyone knows and loves.

Malrubius
09-11-2005, 05:16
Hm, how are the faction leaders going to work? The traditional family system in the game won't work now quite as well, unless Rome is starting out as a kingdom. ~:confused:

Well, the 3-family system was ahistorical, and Rome wasn't the only one of our factions that had something other than dynastic monarchy, but we're limited by the game itself in what we can do to portray this accurately. Rome's definitely not starting as a kingdom or an empire. ~D



I see. That makes sense. So they are "on" or "off", huh? Intelligent or unintelligent, rather than: complete idiot, dull bulb, less than average, average, intelligent, gifted, genius?

No, there are actually 5-6 levels for each of those primary traits, from idiot to genius, like you describe.

GoreBag
09-11-2005, 05:38
Looks great. I hope the traits for the other factions are just as superb.

metatron
09-11-2005, 05:52
I say this not to be an jerk, but in all honesty... the shields look a bit wide and the capes are ugly :-/ (not that I could do a better job, I'm an imbecile). Speaking of the capes, where did you get your info that they wore them in battle? Every thing I've seen indicates that they didn't.

Also, I saw a signifier (and I think an aquilfer earlier); are there Centurions? An optio? A cornicen? A tesserarius? Vexillarii? Will you be adding crests to the legionaire's helmet?

Sorry for the criticism, but as my sig attest, I love Roma. You're doing a fine job, I'm just really, really picky. :(

khelvan
09-11-2005, 06:02
The shields went through a period of evolution; the early scutum was much different from the later scutum that you are used to seeing.

Officers and standard bearers will be added, of course. These are low on the priority list.

Divinus Arma
09-11-2005, 06:35
No, there are actually 5-6 levels for each of those primary traits, from idiot to genius, like you describe.

That's even better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like... a whole lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: ~:cheers:

Seriously though, I really do think that is better than just "on" or "off". I was impressed before, but now I am REALLY impressed. This really is amazing.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I could be mush more impressed. I went around running and screaming when the EB team first announced they had devised a methodology for implementing choices of government. Yep. I pretty much just wet myself with anticipation now. Thanks alot.

I hope you guys can fix this building complex problem. Glad to hear the end is in sight. That is promising. :balloon2: ~:cheers: ~D :balloon2: :charge:

metatron
09-11-2005, 06:58
The shields went through a period of evolution; the early scutum was much different from the later scutum that you are used to seeing.

Officers and standard bearers will be added, of course. These are low on the priority list.Actually, I made a mistake; the Reformed Cohort appears to be using the earlier shields, where the veterans appear to be using the prototype of the imperial shield. So, I commend you for what appears to be a difference between the veterans and the regular cohorts in their scutum, reflecting that the veterans probably did carry the shorter, but lighter shield.

But about the capes and the crests...

Temple
09-11-2005, 08:16
This... IS AWESOME!!

But, seeing as you now have a unified Rome.. Does this mean that you have freed up two Faction slots? And does THAT mean that there will be two more factions?

*not daring to hope*

Productivity
09-11-2005, 08:48
From everything I've read, while it does free two faction slots, those two faction slots are strongly bound to the roman faction, so from a gameplay PoV can't be used. ie. you can't break their shared line of site etc.

metatron
09-11-2005, 09:16
From everything I've read, while it does free two faction slots, those two faction slots are strongly bound to the roman faction, so from a gameplay PoV can't be used. ie. you can't break their shared line of site etc.If they're at war they can, IIRC.

Rodion Romanovich
09-11-2005, 09:23
Yehaa! All I can say is thanks EB for giving me the R:TW I originally wanted! Now it'll finally be possible to enjoy the punic and gallic wars the way it wasn't possible in vanilla R:TW. BTW, this leaves some questions - if there's only one roman faction, then there are 3 unused, right? One of those - the SPQR - would be required in order to get rid of the hardcoded senate system. This means a total of 4 factions are left. Dacia will most certainly be included. About Thrace I don't know. But if there are 3 more apart from Dacia, then the other major gallic faction, Illyria and Numidia come to mind as possibilities.

Urnamma
09-11-2005, 09:55
You will most certainly NOT see Illyria in EB. They were not a united people whatsoever in the period. Their fighting style is unique, in reality. Everyone seems to think they'd have all these hoplites and what not, but they're thinking 500 B.C., not 270 ~;)

O_Stratigos
09-11-2005, 10:51
Damn you EB :furious3: now I HAVE to play the Romans for the first time ever!! ~:eek: ~D

O_Stratigos :bow:

the_handsome_viking
09-11-2005, 11:00
In all honesty, this mod not only could probably work as an educational tool, but it is also quite clearly a true work of art.

What drew me to this mod was the desire to see historically accurate celtic and germanic units but now im really quite interested in playing rome.

you can now really see the little latini tribe rise up from obscurity to become the worlds first superpower.

this mod is really amazing.

all of you guys should pat yourself on the back =)

great work 11 out of 10 an extra point added for the sheer sexiness of these units

The_Mark
09-11-2005, 11:13
great work 11 out of 10 an extra point added for the sheer sexiness of these units
You should see the newest artwork by webbird* :grin:

*not (yet) released for public viewing

Sorry webbird, I couldn't resist :tiny:

the_handsome_viking
09-11-2005, 11:53
Is it just me or the Itallians and Greeks a little to white, they look almost nortic.

Shouldnt they be a mix beween how they are now and the libyan-phoenicians


P.S. 10/10 on the romans, 20/10 on EB as a whole so far

ive got a friend whos mother is lebanese(phoenician) and she has light skin, green eyes and brown hair.
and apparently its quite common in lebanon.http://www.stylemodeling.com/index1.htm

which makes me wonder if its accurate to depict the carthaginians as dark as they are in those pictures above.

either way it doesnt really matter, i could always just justify the darkness as "they got a suntan from drilling all day in the sun"

im british and im pretty sure that if i was hanging around doing military drills in tunisia to this day, id get a tan too.

also i've also met loads and loads of light skinned greeks and southern italians.
(I say southern italians because northern italians tend to come from the lombards)

the_handsome_viking
09-11-2005, 11:54
You should see the newest artwork by webbird* :grin:

*not (yet) released for public viewing

more gallic winky boys? *shudders*

Geoffrey S
09-11-2005, 12:05
I'd been intending most definitely not to start playing EB as the Romans, to sample some of the less well-known factions. But as with all other factions the Romans look exceptional and intriguing to play as; you're definitely making it a challenge to choose a favourite. Should certainly stop those complaining about a biased portrayel. Congratulations on a job well done!

Spendios
09-11-2005, 12:21
Rome in all her glory ! Brilliant preview, the units are awesome and the amount of informations on the Romans is really impressive.
Congratulations!

Productivity
09-11-2005, 12:42
If they're at war they can, IIRC.

Yes, but from memory, they can't start at war - thus no matter what you do, if you use those slots you are going to have a power bloc - something which is unrealistic and thus horrifying to the EB crew.

Biffy
09-11-2005, 12:44
I must say with the other faction previews, I'd skim through the paragraphs of the factions' historical information and background to get to the units and other features. After reading all the paragraphs about the development of rome, which included tons of information that I was never taught at school, I'm going to go back to the other previews and find the time to read them. Since I joined this forum, my interest in the ancient civilizations has been re-established and is greater than before. There is just an epic amount of information on a vast array of different factions of the time I didnt know existed. History at school was crap, all we were taught about was on a little bit of Rome, and what the romans did for us, and how big the empire was, and some stuff about their army. The only other civilization we looked at was ancient greece, which was a brief look at some of the legends. I think that schools should focus more on ancient history, as opposed to shite like 'medicine through time'. Not only will EB be a joy to play because of my urge to play this game with the highest of historical realism, but it will be great to learn about these ancient nations, cultures, the places, the people, wars, religions etc. How great would it be to have a history teacher whack this game on a big screen infront of a class and take them on a tour through the ancient world, as opposed to reading dull passages in a knackered-out text book.

I love the evolution of the roman army it's great, and the look of it, from a hellenic-like army to the roman legions everyone thinks of today.

Great job everyone at EB ~:)

Biffy
09-11-2005, 12:46
P.S. Anyone know why I have an angry face by the topic of my reply?

Biffy
09-11-2005, 12:55
Oh, the icons, i thought they would show up as they are when you select them.

Geoffrey S
09-11-2005, 13:12
A quick question about politics: how are the various offices going to be represented in EB (consul, praetor, the like), and the standing of various generals in the senate? And are there going to be documents included with EB to indicate how armies of the various nations were formed, as some kind of houserules/guidelines so players can attempt to play in authentic ways?

BTW, I love the work on the various characters, both in the ancillaries and trait format. Very indepth.

KingOfTheIsles
09-11-2005, 13:24
Yes, but from memory, they can't start at war - thus no matter what you do, if you use those slots you are going to have a power bloc - something which is unrealistic and thus horrifying to the EB crew.

I believe that they can start at war (although I'm not entirely sure), but even if they can, it may not be in the team's interest to do so. If they use the Roman slots for, for example, three Gallic factions, they may be able to include a script to use an event to force war between the factions (and thus break line of sight problems).

Sheep
09-11-2005, 14:16
One idea (not that it is what is going to happen) would be to use Parthia/Bactria/Seleucids as the three Roman factions since they start off as all part of the Seleucid Empire and then have an event where Parthia and Bactria break off. I am not sure what complications this would produce however.

VandalCarthage
09-11-2005, 14:54
I must say with the other faction previews, I'd skim through the paragraphs of the factions' historical information and background to get to the units and other features. After reading all the paragraphs about the development of rome, which included tons of information that I was never taught at school, I'm going to go back to the other previews and find the time to read them.


Rome in all her glory ! Brilliant preview, the units are awesome and the amount of informations on the Romans is really impressive.

It's nice to know that some people are at least skimming my and Legio's 11 page history ~D Thanks though guys.

@ Biffy: once you really delve into some of this information, it's incredibly interesting, and staggering compared to what you might hear in school. There's obviously not enough time for individual teachers to go into as much depth as you can with specific historical works, but it's really great when you can enlighten yourself as to the smaller details ~:)

Geoffrey S
09-11-2005, 15:10
Once you really delve into some of this information, it's incredibly interesting, and staggering compared to what you might hear in school. There's obviously not enough time for individual teachers to go into as much depth as you can with specific historical works, but it's really great when you can enlighten yourself as to the smaller details.
It certainly is. It's been very interesting to read the detailed descriptions, and the texts have frequently moved me to look up more information in the recommended reading. It's all been most inspiring.

Chester
09-11-2005, 15:50
Fucking Brilliant. I tip my hat to EB.

Ludens
09-11-2005, 15:50
Beautifull work, truly. I cannot wait to play this. Unfortunately, I will have to wait.

Have mercy EB: please hurry up ~D .

Steppe Merc
09-11-2005, 16:38
You should see the newest artwork by webbird* :grin:

*not (yet) released for public viewing

Sorry webbird, I couldn't resist :tiny:
~D


One idea (not that it is what is going to happen) would be to use Parthia/Bactria/Seleucids as the three Roman factions since they start off as all part of the Seleucid Empire and then have an event where Parthia and Bactria break off. I am not sure what complications this would produce however.
At the beggining of the game, the Parni were not under Selecuid control. Parthia was, but not the people who became the Parthians, they were still on the steppe.

alman7272
09-11-2005, 16:48
About Thrace I don't know. But if there are 3 more apart from Dacia, then the other major gallic faction, Illyria and Numidia come to mind as possibilities.

I wouldn't mind if they cut Thrace, but for the other three slots I certainly would prefer to have at least one Arab faction like Nabataea or Saba (or maybe even the Garamantians and whatnot). Arabia gets so little coverage in ancient times. For the other two, perhaps Arverni and Numidia or two kickass factions we'd never think of.~;)

Turin
09-11-2005, 16:53
Well done, well done!

One thing though, not sure if this was intentional or not but...

The conical helms on the principes and hastati seem... non-conically. There is no smooth curve around the helm. It almost looks like 8 triangles stitched around each other.

Moros
09-11-2005, 17:58
omg this is...omg...

:jawdrop:

btw: in the last battle screenshot there is an unpreviewed gallic unit, what unit is it?

Birka Viking
09-11-2005, 18:58
Wow....This preview is awesome....EB you are my heroes...... ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Taffy_is_a_Taff
09-11-2005, 19:09
I cry for the forthcoming death of my social life.

Nice job.

KSEG
09-11-2005, 19:51
It looks absolutely stunning...

But just 1 little thing.
Why V is used instead of U in SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS?
Latin language didn't had U?

metatron
09-11-2005, 19:55
^They had the sound, but not the letter.

Shigawire
09-11-2005, 20:31
They didn't have J nor U.. and up until 312 BC, they didn't have a G.
The creation of G was attributed by Plutarch to have been created by the grammarian Spurius Carvilius Ruga in the 3rd century BC. Both the K-sound and the G-sound were heard in different words when using the letter C. Thus, the letter C had two distinct sounds. Ruga split the C into the two respective sounds by creating the G, which he did by adding a little line to the C.

In 312 BC, the Censor Appius Claudius Caecus passed the motion in the Senate to make the letter official. Though he was still quite adamant not to adopt the greek Z, because the sound looked like the "curling lips on a dead man's mouth"..

Ab Urbe Condita
09-11-2005, 20:51
Well done, well done!

One thing though, not sure if this was intentional or not but...

The conical helms on the principes and hastati seem... non-conically. There is no smooth curve around the helm. It almost looks like 8 triangles stitched around each other.

That is also my only complaint about this preview; the relatively low polygon count in the premarian helmets.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
09-11-2005, 21:01
That is also my only complaint about this preview; the relatively low polygon count in the premarian helmets.Many people have complained that the models seemed to have too many polygons and therefore were system intensive. Now you two say they have too few polygons... ~:confused:

caesar44
09-11-2005, 21:21
Looks good !
Why are you using the Varonian chronology ?

Marinakis
09-11-2005, 22:04
ive got a friend whos mother is lebanese(phoenician) and she has light skin, green eyes and brown hair.
and apparently its quite common in lebanon.http://www.stylemodeling.com/index1.htm

which makes me wonder if its accurate to depict the carthaginians as dark as they are in those pictures above.

either way it doesnt really matter, i could always just justify the darkness as "they got a suntan from drilling all day in the sun"

im british and im pretty sure that if i was hanging around doing military drills in tunisia to this day, id get a tan too.

also i've also met loads and loads of light skinned greeks and southern italians.
(I say southern italians because northern italians tend to come from the lombards)

Well Northern greeks tend to be more white, and southern italy is heavily greek (aka Epirus, northern greece)

About the Phoenicians in the game being to dark you have to remember they are mixed with Libyan, numbians, and other africans in carthage.

Seeing how the greek world was dominated by Northern greek peoples at this time i guess its the beter compromise to pick the more Nortic look.

However, Italians, true italians (cantral italy) are quite Darkly tanned peoples.




P.S. Lebenon is not Phoenician. Acording to their own nations stats they are

- Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

The "white" look is most likely their armenian side, half my family is Armenian and they look european.

SwordsMaster
09-11-2005, 22:17
Thanks, EB for complying with my request. Only one thing to say: cool ~:cheers:

Steppe Merc
09-11-2005, 23:12
A general comment on skin coloring: it is difficult to know the exact coloring of all the people in any place. It is even more difficult to show when the peoples were quite varied, like the Parthians, who varied from the dark to quite fair.
So we try and go for a compromise. But I don't know much about the Romans in particular.

khelvan
09-11-2005, 23:18
He was talking about the skin color of some Carthaginians. Remember that our Carthage has Phoenician people, Libyans, Ethiopians, and others, so some units will be darker than others. In addition, some Carthaginians were created darker than they should have been, and will be fixed. However, we would need to know which unit you are talking about, in particular, to discuss the reasons for choice of skin color.

Steppe Merc
09-11-2005, 23:21
He was? Damn. Well it still applies. ~;)

aleh
09-11-2005, 23:40
Great!!! I was leaning towards trying Macedonia first, but now for sure te Roman first, and who can blame me for putting off resurrecting ole Alex' dream , eh? But I have a question, and this is because of my extreme rustiness. I know how to switch from melee to ranged weapons, but how can I switch from the spear for the Early Principes to their short-swords, or can it even be done for that matter. Might just be a cool, but relatively useless sword, yes?

khelvan
09-11-2005, 23:57
Using ALT-click, I believe, will force the unit to attack with its secondary weapon. Or CTRL-click...one or the other.

econ21
09-12-2005, 01:11
Well, for instance, we're using 107 BC for the Marian Reforms at the moment.

Will anyone ever see these reforms? If EB has four turns per year (one for each seasons) and starts at 280BC, that means we have to play 692 turns to get to the Marian reforms. I don't think anyone is going to play that long. And goodness knows how long it would take to get Imperial reforms.

Am I missing anything? (e.g. variable start dates for campaigns? Like the early/high/late in MTW?).

One problem I have with RTR is that they have rather dragged out the campaign. And again, I am not sure anyone has seen Marian reforms with RTR 6.0. One of the main improvements of RTW over MTW and STW was that it made it easier to actually finish a campaign.

the_handsome_viking
09-12-2005, 01:16
Well Northern greeks tend to be more white, and southern italy is heavily greek (aka Epirus, northern greece)

About the Phoenicians in the game being to dark you have to remember they are mixed with Libyan, numbians, and other africans in carthage.

Seeing how the greek world was dominated by Northern greek peoples at this time i guess its the beter compromise to pick the more Nortic look.

However, Italians, true italians (cantral italy) are quite Darkly tanned peoples.




P.S. Lebenon is not Phoenician. Acording to their own nations stats they are

- Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

The "white" look is most likely their armenian side, half my family is Armenian and they look european.


However, Italians, true italians (cantral italy) are quite Darkly tanned peoples.

what do you mean by true italians? Etruscans? latins?


About the Phoenicians in the game being to dark you have to remember they are mixed with Libyan, numbians, and other africans in carthage.

though I have no doubt in my mind that the mixed apperence of modern day tunisians as well as other north africans has come from racial mixing, I do think that historically they may not have been so dark.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/Ancient_lybian.jpg
thats a lybian from the book of gates, not very dark looking. you can compare to the other peoples here .
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Tomb_of_Ramesses.jpg

I see no real reason to think that other berber groups(numidians for example) would look any different unless they had and influx of sub saharan dna.


P.S. Lebenon is not Phoenician. Acording to their own nations stats they are

- Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

The "white" look is most likely their armenian side, half my family is Armenian and they look european.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lebanon

"The Lebanese Maronite Christians are descendants of the Phoenicians/Canaanis (30%)."

my friends mother is maronite.

There was also a program on tv, I think the discovery channel that ended with genetic test results proving thatthe lebanese were the descendents of the Phoenicians also, which I think explains the lighter appearance of the christian maronites in lebanon.
that said, im sure the armenian blood will also be part of the reason why you have white people in lebanon also.
I've seen a lot of white armenians too.

either way , weither they had dark skin or not, it doesnt matter, when i play this mod ill just say "they got a sun tan"

I'll be happy either way, unless of course they make the generals look like denzel washington... that would make me cry.

GoreBag
09-12-2005, 01:20
Yeah, Denzel Washington would be silly. Samuel L. Jackson would be okay, though... he can do anything.

Marinakis
09-12-2005, 02:50
yeah i agree with most everything u said Handsome Viking

just to clerify when i say True Italians i mean the non greeks of the south, and the non guals from the north. So Umbra, Compania, Latium, Etruria, etc


And about Lebenon, I have never been there, and im sure there is some minority of people connected to the Phoenicians but they are not the majority, there are armenians there as well so does that make it an Armenian nation? Same thing applys with Kurds in Turkey, i can assure you Turkey is not a Kurdish nation. Lebenon is Arab. Dont get me wrong i think the Phoenicians were in the upper echelon of great peoples, along with Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and Greece

I dont know where Wikipeda got those numbers, but here are some numbers from the United States C.I.A.


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

They have the same numbers i said before, Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

khelvan
09-12-2005, 04:58
Will anyone ever see these reforms? If EB has four turns per year (one for each seasons) and starts at 280BC, that means we have to play 692 turns to get to the Marian reforms. I don't think anyone is going to play that long. And goodness knows how long it would take to get Imperial reforms.We've had test games that went longer, but not to worry. This is just a stopgap until we have the time to put together real triggers for them. We'll examine what conflicts with which type of cultures would lead to such reforms, and then when such things happen in the game, there will be a chance for the reforms to happen.

Just like what we're doing with the Seleukid Kataphraktoi reforms, but more complicated.

Urnamma
09-12-2005, 05:19
yeah i agree with most everything u said Handsome Viking

just to clerify when i say True Italians i mean the non greeks of the south, and the non guals from the north. So Umbra, Compania, Latium, Etruria, etc


And about Lebenon, I have never been there, and im sure there is some minority of people connected to the Phoenicians but they are not the majority, there are armenians there as well so does that make it an Armenian nation? Same thing applys with Kurds in Turkey, i can assure you Turkey is not a Kurdish nation. Lebenon is Arab. Dont get me wrong i think the Phoenicians were in the upper echelon of great peoples, along with Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and Greece

I dont know where Wikipeda got those numbers, but here are some numbers from the United States C.I.A.


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

They have the same numbers i said before, Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

This is an asinine discussion. But remember who controls the country, and you'll see why they list it as Arab. It is worthy to note that syrians also have light skin tones, but what the hell does it matter? Some of it is Greek, Assyrian, Syrian, Phoenician etc influences, but you're stereotyping all arabs as darkish people, which they aren't.

Fenrhyl
09-12-2005, 11:08
To Marikanis :

I'd like to point out the many imprecision about "racial" differences in your text but i dont have neioter the time nor the will to do so.

I'll go the shortest way : as an antrhopologist i perfectly know that races do N O T exist. This goes to the extent that a people is now defined by an unity of customs and language rather than from their ascendency.

What exist is the great population groups sharing some common traits (but not much) like indo-european folks or semitic ones. Iranians, armenians, turks, hinds, europeans and so on are indo-europeans while arabs, hebraics, phoenicians and north africans are semitic.

What you point out about skin tones is irrelevant. When two different folks come into contact a slow process of blending takes place, a first the physical differences issued by very slightly different gene pools are strong but from the mment they meet they are to mix, exchange genes through marriage and some generations later the blend takes root and expand. Thay's why inhabitants of the middle-east and near east are a mosaic of people and physical types. They mixed so lon ago and so well that you can meet arabs with blond hair and blue eyes or with perfect armenian or iranian features.

PS : you can't tell a sun exposed woman from southern France from a maghrebin one living in the north. That's because skin tone has a lot to do with sun exposure. Peole have a tendency to forget this point.


About the preview :

It is great, this will make up perfect romans to crush.

the_handsome_viking
09-12-2005, 12:20
yeah i agree with most everything u said Handsome Viking

just to clerify when i say True Italians i mean the non greeks of the south, and the non guals from the north. So Umbra, Compania, Latium, Etruria, etc


And about Lebenon, I have never been there, and im sure there is some minority of people connected to the Phoenicians but they are not the majority, there are armenians there as well so does that make it an Armenian nation? Same thing applys with Kurds in Turkey, i can assure you Turkey is not a Kurdish nation. Lebenon is Arab. Dont get me wrong i think the Phoenicians were in the upper echelon of great peoples, along with Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and Greece

I dont know where Wikipeda got those numbers, but here are some numbers from the United States C.I.A.


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html

They have the same numbers i said before, Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

I was more basing my comment on things my friend had told me, in his words, you can walk down the street of a maronite neighbourhood and be surrounded by light skinned people with hair that ranges from blonde to brown and eyes that range from light brown to blue to green etc and then when you leave you will be surrounded by dark haired people with black eyes and black hair oh a more mixed complexion.

though I will point out that arabic is a fairly ill defined group and is based on a language and a culture rather than a race of people, you can have arabs of all races.

http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F36V.html
http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F38R.html
http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F22R.html
personally I think this is a great picture for looking at the racial differences of the arabs.http://history.missouristate.edu/jchuchiak/Crusades6.jpg

so in short arab could be anything.

but yeah, as I said in my previous post, its the christian maronites that are the ones that are supposed to be the decendants of the phoenicians and tend to be the lighter people in general.

Steppe Merc
09-12-2005, 18:02
I've seen a lot of white armenians too..
Because Armenians are white, or at least were. Armenians were Iranians, like the Scythians, Persians, Parthians and Sarmatians.

Alexanderofmacedon
09-12-2005, 19:26
So what's the countdown now?

Marinakis
09-12-2005, 19:52
Because Armenians are white, or at least were. Armenians were Iranians, like the Scythians, Persians, Parthians and Sarmatians.

Can u prove that with facts? Im not saying it isnt true.I just never realised my ancestry can be traced back to Iran

I thought Armenians were from the Hittites

VandalCarthage
09-12-2005, 22:13
Armenia was traditionally settled by Noah's grandson Haik, which was why it was originally called the 'land of Haik' in the original semitic language. That in mind, I'd always been unders the impression that Armenians were at least in part semitic in origin, despite some later Persian based nomenclature.

Steppe Merc probably knows the subject better though, so I wont commit to my older opinion ~D

Steppe Merc
09-13-2005, 00:48
Well, I just know that Armenia had great amounts of Iranian culture at this time. They were controlled by first Persia, then the Parthians and Sassanians, and were fought in practically the same manner.
I always thought they were Iranian peoples, but I may be wrong.

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 00:53
I always thought they were from a separate denomination of Indo-Europeans, but have learned really nothing about them to explain this inkling.

Marinakis
09-13-2005, 00:55
Well, I just know that Armenia had great amounts of Iranian culture at this time. They were controlled by first Persia, then the Parthians and Sassanians, and were fought in practically the same manner.
I always thought they were Iranian peoples, but I may be wrong.
I think they come from the Hittites and share VERY close ties with the Assyrians

Yes they shared alot of Iranian influence but when greece controled them they shared a LOT of greek influence as well so thats not a good reason to connect them to the Iranians

Herodotus claimed that the Armenians came from Thrace, along with the Phrygians, and the Armenians spoke a similar language. Those that moved eastward eventually became the Armenians

They are Indo-European peoples

VandalCarthage
09-13-2005, 00:59
The Iranian base of their later name, and the general proximity, is however a fairly good reason for the connection.

Like I said though, Armenia was traditionally settled/founded by Noah's grandson Haik, so I'm inclined to agree with you Marinakis - that it was of Semitic origin, though I'm not knowledgable enough to isolate the period to any particular Hittite dynasty.

Marinakis
09-13-2005, 01:04
intresting conversation ~:)

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 01:04
The Iranian base of their later name, and the general proximity, is however a fairly good reason for the connection.

Like I said though, Armenia was traditionally settled/founded by Noah's grandson Haik, so I'm inclined to agree with you Marinakis - that it was of Semitic origin, though I'm not knowledgable enough to isolate the period to any particular Hittite dynasty.

Traditionally, some Biblical figure also came into contact with Scotland's Stone of Destiny... you can do better than that. ~;)

Malrubius
09-13-2005, 01:54
Looks great. I hope the traits for the other factions are just as superb.

I'm pretty proud of what we've done for the Hellenistic factions and the western barbarians, as well. ~D


A quick question about politics: how are the various offices going to be represented in EB (consul, praetor, the like), and the standing of various generals in the senate? And are there going to be documents included with EB to indicate how armies of the various nations were formed, as some kind of houserules/guidelines so players can attempt to play in authentic ways?

BTW, I love the work on the various characters, both in the ancillaries and trait format. Very indepth.

I have done some work to restore the Cursus Honorum, but there are significant limitations on what we can do (like making sure there are the correct number of office-holders for each office), and balance issues have to be considered. I guess you can imagine that there are various men, outside your family tree, who hold some of the offices.

I like the "house rules" idea, like maybe only consuls can lead armies or something. Might be too much of a handicap, who knows? ~;)

VandalCarthage
09-13-2005, 02:41
Traditionally, some Biblical figure also came into contact with Scotland's Stone of Destiny... you can do better than that

Jesus' uncle traded tin in Southern England, and stranger things have happened.

Also keep in mind the ratio of the distance between the Persian Gulf and Britian and the Persian Gulf and Armenia is something like 3:1.

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 03:38
Jesus' uncle traded tin in Southern England, and stranger things have happened.

Also keep in mind the ratio of the distance between the Persian Gulf and Britian and the Persian Gulf and Armenia is something like 3:1.

You missed the point.

Forgus
09-13-2005, 10:10
Guys, this is pointless. Start a new thread if you like, but this is really not the place...

the_handsome_viking
09-13-2005, 15:42
Because Armenians are white, or at least were. Armenians were Iranians, like the Scythians, Persians, Parthians and Sarmatians.

i know.

Geoffrey S
09-13-2005, 16:10
I have done some work to restore the Cursus Honorum, but there are significant limitations on what we can do (like making sure there are the correct number of office-holders for each office), and balance issues have to be considered. I guess you can imagine that there are various men, outside your family tree, who hold some of the offices.

I like the "house rules" idea, like maybe only consuls can lead armies or something. Might be too much of a handicap, who knows? ~;)
Cheers, that's pretty much what I was wondering. Do offices confer a bonus on a general? That was something that annoyed me in RTW, because aside from influence I'd have assumed a general wouldn't become more adept at the various skills simply by getting elected; in theory he should have those skills already, atlhough he might be more experienced after his period in office at managing things.

The houserules I was thinking could be voluntary; as you suggest things like only having the appropriate general leading larger armies or offensives, or a realistic consular army. Such rules for each faction could certainly make playing as different factions more diverse, adding even more historical spice.

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 16:43
Cheers, that's pretty much what I was wondering. Do offices confer a bonus on a general? That was something that annoyed me in RTW, because aside from influence I'd have assumed a general wouldn't become more adept at the various skills simply by getting elected; in theory he should have those skills already, atlhough he might be more experienced after his period in office at managing things.

The houserules I was thinking could be voluntary; as you suggest things like only having the appropriate general leading larger armies or offensives, or a realistic consular army. Such rules for each faction could certainly make playing as different factions more diverse, adding even more historical spice.

I always thought that holding an office, like in MTW, granted the character more power and acumen or command ability through his new collection of retainers assumed to come with the position.

Malrubius
09-13-2005, 23:14
I didn't adjust the values, so they may need some tweaking. However, Neon is right that he would benefit from having additional assistants to help him perform his tasks. Note that these benefits diminish when he leaves the office.

the_handsome_viking
09-14-2005, 00:35
man... how the hell are sweboz gonna go up against these guys without the aid of extremely vicious ambushes?

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 03:05
I think extremely vicious ambushes are the best way to go anyway...


I didn't adjust the values, so they may need some tweaking. However, Neon is right that he would benefit from having additional assistants to help him perform his tasks. Note that these benefits diminish when he leaves the office.

~D

Divinus Arma
09-14-2005, 05:41
I think extremely vicious ambushes are the best way to go anyway...



~D


Is there a way to make ambushing easier? Or confer penalties upon the victims of ambushes? The odds of actrually ambushing anyone suck as it is. I have been involved in only two or three ambushes since owning this game. And I play for sometimes 12-16 hoiurs in a strecth.

khelvan
09-14-2005, 05:53
Is there a way to make ambushing easier? Or confer penalties upon the victims of ambushes? The odds of actrually ambushing anyone suck as it is. I have been involved in only two or three ambushes since owning this game. And I play for sometimes 12-16 hoiurs in a strecth.The area around the Sweboz is full of forest. Attackers will be ambushed much more often than in vanilla RTW. Even on the british isles, as the Casse, I have been ambushed by the AI quite often. More forest means more ambushes.

Divinus Arma
09-14-2005, 05:53
Here's a question... What will prevent the player from skipping hastati entirely? Why would I even use Hastati unless it gives me an advtage?

For example, it would be tactically best to use hastati if they made stat sense. To clarify, if hastati had a stat that made them good attackers, then they would be best used in the front. For example, the hastati could have a 17att/09def, while principes could have a 14att/13def, and the triarii would have a 12att/17def.

Does this make sense? The hastati are attackers for that "initial shock" and to counter the enemy's intial attack, the pricipes are balanced to survive and do damage for the bulk of the battle, and the triarii are defensive to hang in there at the end when survivability is most important.

Comments, EB? I'm very curious how you worked this out.

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 06:07
I was under the impression that balance, in this case, would be fiscal issue.

Divinus Arma
09-14-2005, 06:09
The area around the Sweboz is full of forest. Attackers will be ambushed much more often than in vanilla RTW. Even on the british isles, as the Casse, I have been ambushed by the AI quite often. More forest means more ambushes.


good news! Thanx. :balloon2: ~:cheers:

khelvan
09-14-2005, 06:27
Unit costs are derived using a formula based on the same criteria that give us unit stats in a formula. So as the effectiveness of the unit increases, so does the cost. You may skip hastati if you wish, but you may get more bang for your buck there.

There is, unfortunately, no practical way for us to force either the player or the AI to use an historical Roman legion, from any of the periods we're depicting.

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 06:37
Well, would forcing a player to use a certain structure really be positive anyway?

LorDBulA
09-14-2005, 06:55
What will prevent the player from skipping hastati entirely?

I would say common sense.

If you dont want to use Hastati you dont have to but its better to use them.
Why? Gauls/Sweboz have now lots of precursor weapons.
This means that there will be hail of javelins at the begining of encounter.
Why loose your better and more expensive Principes when you can use cheeper Hastati as moving targets for the enemy. It doesnt mater if you are a levy or a veteran both dies as easy from missile fire.
Its just more cost effective to put your Hastati in the first line. Plus they will also absorb initial enemy charge witch always couse additional casualties.
Then you can bring your fresh full streanght charging principes to the fight.
Much better tactic if you ask me. Damn those Romans where really smart.

Wikingus
09-14-2005, 11:13
Superb! Nothing more I can say really. ~:)

the_handsome_viking
09-14-2005, 11:33
I would say common sense.

If you dont want to use Hastati you dont have to but its better to use them.
Why? Gauls/Sweboz have now lots of precursor weapons.
This means that there will be hail of javelins at the begining of encounter.
Why loose your better and more expensive Principes when you can use cheeper Hastati as moving targets for the enemy. It doesnt mater if you are a levy or a veteran both dies as easy from missile fire.
Its just more cost effective to put your Hastati in the first line. Plus they will also absorb initial enemy charge witch always couse additional casualties.
Then you can bring your fresh full streanght charging principes to the fight.
Much better tactic if you ask me. Damn those Romans where really smart.

imagine being one of those poor front line guys though =(

SaFe
09-14-2005, 13:56
imagine being one of those poor front line guys though =(


perhaps the liked it to come first in contact with naked celts or a lot larger germanics.
But to be honest - the haststi job is not a easy one:-)

zemaniak
09-14-2005, 17:41
comparativley easier to be a velite

BDC
09-14-2005, 17:57
perhaps the liked it to come first in contact with naked celts or a lot larger germanics.
But to be honest - the haststi job is not a easy one:-)
If you survive though lots of chance for plunder...

Anyway how many big battles would you realistically see in your career? Three or four? Over 26 years?

Iskandr
09-14-2005, 22:29
If you survive though lots of chance for plunder...

Anyway how many big battles would you realistically see in your career? Three or four? Over 26 years?

Actually, during most of the period when EB represents, I think the length of service was only 16 total years, and normally only 6 consecutive (though I am getting this information from a secondary source quoting Polybius, it's the genreally accurate Keppie's "The making of the Roman Army").

I do know that during the Imperial era, much longer service was required, but this varied from 16-25 years, and unofficially some soldiers were kept even longer (or at least, claimed they had been). And depending on the period, some legions saw 3-4 battles a YEAR during major wars- look at the Legio X Equestris or Legio V Alaudae during the Gallic and Civil Wars for an example of units that probably had 3 gold chevrons by the end = P. During the Republic this was presumably less the case, but still, the Legions were in theory only enlisted to fight a war, not constitute a standing army, and there appear to be very few years between 280 BC and 1 AD that the Roman Army wasn't on active campaign.

Iskandr

metatron
09-14-2005, 23:04
Let us hope that this question does not meet the fate of my last...

Will you be implementing the various crowns for the Romans, and if so, how?

Malrubius
09-14-2005, 23:18
Which crowns are those? Like titles for the ruler of the empire, or something else? I'm not a historian, so help me out here. ~;)

metatron
09-14-2005, 23:59
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Corona.html

Jebus
09-15-2005, 01:23
I have a feeling you just set back the work on Traits & Ancilliaries another few weeks.

metatron
09-15-2005, 01:51
I have a feeling you just set back the work on Traits & Ancilliaries another few weeks.I gladly wait. :D

kayapó
09-15-2005, 02:37
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Corona.html

hmmm...

I guess most of these more evident, and relevant to RTW, events are already covered by our current system of traits and events scripts.

It might be interesting to add them to our text descriptions though, if someone can point out that they were indeed a common pratice during the time period we are covering.


I have a feeling you just set back the work on Traits & Ancilliaries another few weeks.

Impossible, as there is no end in sight right now... ~D

k

Divinus Arma
09-15-2005, 02:40
Actually, during most of the period when EB represents, I think the length of service was only 16 total years, and normally only 6 consecutive (though I am getting this information from a secondary source quoting Polybius, it's the genreally accurate Keppie's "The making of the Roman Army").

I do know that during the Imperial era, much longer service was required, but this varied from 16-25 years, and unofficially some soldiers were kept even longer (or at least, claimed they had been). And depending on the period, some legions saw 3-4 battles a YEAR during major wars- look at the Legio X Equestris or Legio V Alaudae during the Gallic and Civil Wars for an example of units that probably had 3 gold chevrons by the end = P. During the Republic this was presumably less the case, but still, the Legions were in theory only enlisted to fight a war, not constitute a standing army, and there appear to be very few years between 280 BC and 1 AD that the Roman Army wasn't on active campaign.

Iskandr

I read that a few months ago. Keppie is one of the foremost Authorities on his area of study. Great book. A little dry, but it is all based upon the equipment and development of the Roman Army. He does a lot more than quote Polybius. He is quite involved in the archeology side of his studies.

metatron
09-15-2005, 03:02
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Crown

If I were on the team, I would make all the crown winners ancillaries, and those that could be won by generals as traits also.

monkian
09-16-2005, 09:11
Hi there, congrats on amazing progress !


Im just wondering, maybe after one of the Roman's reforms if their stamina could improve.

I belive the Roman cohorts used to cycle the ranks of its troops to keep the front line fresh, improving their stamnina could reflect this in-game maybe.

Cheers ~D

Simetrical
09-16-2005, 20:13
We're very limited in our ability to adjust stamina, unfortunately.

jerby
09-17-2005, 16:02
yeah, you got: regular stamina, good stamina, excellent stamina. for all i know.
regular men get normal, and some got a 'good stamina'. excellent is mostly for horses. but that's all vanilla...

Copperhaired Berserker!
09-18-2005, 00:16
Wow WOw WOW WOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!11 I'm drooling, Amazing perview!

Ypoknons
09-18-2005, 06:22
Forgive my ignorance, but does the word Hastati have anything to do with the word Hasta? This isn't a dig at your historical accuracy of course, but I was just wondeirng why Hastati have has gladii.

khelvan
09-18-2005, 07:43
According to some scholars, the word hastati was originally derived from the hasta, yes, but within the timeframe of our mod the hastati are not armed with spears.

Malrubius
09-18-2005, 12:52
In a similar fashion, modern armor units are referred to as cavalry, even though they've traded their horses for tanks. American Marines do a lot more than guard boats, etc. The name survives long after the reason for the name.

Byzantine Mercenary
09-20-2005, 15:34
wow! i thought rome would be a boring faction, infantry all looking the same, not much variety, not much cav but it looks great, with the size of map and the number of reforms EB's campaign will be epic

jerby
09-24-2005, 21:33
wow! i thought rome would be a boring faction, infantry all looking the same, not much variety, not much cav but it looks great, with the size of map and the number of reforms EB's campaign will be epic
yeah.. i didn't know what to expect...
after vanilla accounts of peopel saying 'their roman heavy cav is destroying the barbarians' i tought that EB would seriously hamper Rome and make it an almost complete inf-faction, wich it was...and that's a pitty..i love cav..and i still like rome, if only for teh reforms..i like reforms..

edyzmedieval
09-24-2005, 21:40
Wow. Really impressing.

When can you put info about Carthage?!

Ludens
09-25-2005, 00:23
Wow. Really impressing.

When can you put info about Carthage?!
See this thread: Countdown to Open Beat - Tsorim (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47008). Do keep in mind that this is a rather old thread and by now the Tsorim faction has been renamed Karthadastim.

infierno
10-04-2005, 07:03
this is realism thumbs up, or OLE as we say in spain ;)


so, this roman legionary should take place in the time period of BI right??

http://www.vroma.org/images/bonvallet_images/bonvallet4-18.jpg

QwertyMIDX
10-04-2005, 08:01
He should be common place around the time of the Dacian Wars, between the end of RTW and the beginning of BI.

infierno
10-05-2005, 03:56
lol! and, if you work in BI time period, in which would you include it guys??

think about it, if you include it in BI, at start of the game we will have the strongest unit!!

but, would be cool to make like a "marian reform" but just the opposite, the end of good legionaries and start with the bad guys

Ludens
10-06-2005, 16:22
so, this roman legionary should take place in the time period of BI right??
I think you misunderstood QwertyMIDX's answer: the legionary you show, with the square shield and the banded armour, is of the time period between R:TW and BI: the height of the Roman empire. By BI's time, the power of the legions had severly dimished, as had the quality of their equipment. The "Roman" legionaries of the BI period were clad in chainmail and trousers, carried oval shields and longer swords (but not the deadly gladius and pilum combination) and were quite often Germans.

CA representation of them (the comitatenes) is actually quite good.

infierno
10-06-2005, 17:48
yeah all clear

but now i wonder in what game you would include it:

this legionary is not in rtw EB

and in rtw BI EB you it wont be...

he is in the limbo

QwertyMIDX
10-06-2005, 18:32
That legionnaire isn't, but the roman legionaire with segmata armor really wasn't the most important (for lack of a better word, prevalent mabye), the one clad in chain (who is in EB, both the Marian and Early Imperial) is what people should think of when they think of the Roman Military. I guess segmata is just more unique and makes more of an impression...

jerby
10-06-2005, 20:54
That legionnaire isn't, but the roman legionaire with segmata armor really wasn't the most important (for lack of a better word, prevalent mabye), the one clad in chain (who is in EB, both the Marian and Early Imperial) is what people should think of when they think of the Roman Military. I guess segmata is just more unique and makes more of an impression...
mainly because of some little bloke with a winged helm, and a very big dude with a blue-striped pants and a huge belly...tough there also was a little puppy..what were their names again~;)?

so why did these units drop the chainmail?

infierno
10-06-2005, 22:09
well, but instead being recluted normally, they could be a gift i.e. when the city reachs xxx.000 population, the city could get 1 unit or, i dont know... but could be a great eye candy to see him

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-06-2005, 22:33
so why did these units drop the chainmail?Due to the fact that segmentata was cheaper and faster to produce than hamata (mail) or squamata (scale).

Sarcasm
10-07-2005, 00:19
Was it?

Aymar de Bois Mauri
10-07-2005, 00:45
Was it?Yes. It was also easier to fix after a battle.

QwertyMIDX
10-07-2005, 05:36
Think about how many rings go in a chainmail shirt, now count the pieces in segmata armor...Yup, it was far faster to produce as well as easier to repair, and the protection it offered wasn't much worse (it was better against somethings in fact). Still, despite what TV tells us the hamata clad legionaire was the more common one, was used for a longer period of time, and was the one who fought in most of Rome's conquests (after the reforms of Marius).

GeWee
10-07-2005, 17:20
I marvelled for a while over the nice units and then came to think of something..

Three reforms? Does that mean the Romans will have to scrap three generations of probably elite units or have you resolved the issue of not being able to retrain pre-reform units?
Maybe by somehow transforming your gold chevron Early Hastati into gold chevron Late Hastati and the like? I'd rather have instant transformation of entire armies instead of having to replace my elites for rookies three times over during a game...

Ludens
10-08-2005, 13:45
well, but instead being recluted normally, they could be a gift i.e. when the city reachs xxx.000 population, the city could get 1 unit or, i dont know... but could be a great eye candy to see him
I am afraid they won't be included. EB is all about historical accuracy, and adding an unhistorical unit rather defeats this point. Also, since there is a limit on the number of unit models avaible, adding an Imperial Legionary means dropping another unit. I doubt they would do that for a "gimmick unit" even if it was historically accuracte.

(I realize that Lorica Segmentata was already known in Augustus' time, so it isn't that inaccurate, but from what I have heard it was not in common use.)


That legionnaire isn't, but the roman legionaire with segmata armor really wasn't the most important (for lack of a better word, prevalent mabye), the one clad in chain (who is in EB, both the Marian and Early Imperial) is what people should think of when they think of the Roman Military. I guess segmata is just more unique and makes more of an impression...
I know. I merely meant that it was the legionary used by the Roman Empire at the height of its power. Whether they were truly as effective as the troops Ceasar and Pompey commanded is questionable.


I marvelled for a while over the nice units and then came to think of something..

Three reforms? Does that mean the Romans will have to scrap three generations of probably elite units or have you resolved the issue of not being able to retrain pre-reform units?
Maybe by somehow transforming your gold chevron Early Hastati into gold chevron Late Hastati and the like? I'd rather have instant transformation of entire armies instead of having to replace my elites for rookies three times over during a game...
I never thought of that, but it is an interesting question. What is the chance we will still have Camillian units when we reach the Marian reforms? And are these units still useful or do we have to disband them after some time?

jerby
10-08-2005, 14:12
well. the AI isn't such a walkover i guess, woith a morale boost you will definatly loose troops. and wiht teh upped maintaining costs you'll be disbanding units regularly..
but there is a chance..

Moros
10-08-2005, 15:09
yes, you'll be disbanding units if you don't really need them automatically.

jerby
10-08-2005, 15:20
yes, you'll be disbanding units if you don't really need them automatically.
so camillian units will be extinct after the reforms, at least faster than in Vanilla...

Moros
10-08-2005, 16:03
so camillian units will be extinct after the reforms, at least faster than in Vanilla...
Well mostly I think. Never got that far with the romans. Everytime your playing a fun campaign, kapoof! a new version of the game.:|

GeWee
10-08-2005, 16:15
So it's not possible to have the game automatically transform your pre-reform units into post-reform ones?

Moros
10-08-2005, 16:24
So it's not possible to have the game automatically transform your pre-reform units into post-reform ones?
I don't know if it is unpossible, I even never got that far with a Roman campaign.
But EB will have the most realistic awnser (possible) to that problem thrust me.

jerby
10-08-2005, 16:34
impossible. due to the hardcode..

GeWee
10-08-2005, 16:54
Ok, I see.

Ludens
10-09-2005, 11:59
So it's not possible to have the game automatically transform your pre-reform units into post-reform ones?
I don't know if it is impossible, but so far no-one managed to do it or there would mods around featuring this. Perhaps the EB-team managed to find a loophole or a work-around, but this is just speculation.

RTK-Viktor_of_Astaroth
12-10-2005, 17:21
Hah, my feeling exactly. Welcome to the forum, cdbavg400. ~:grouphug:


Hooray...nicely done., one question though...if im rome, and i conquere the hellon city states..does rome get to do the olympic games too.? :charge:


Oh and yea...by da way...when's this mod gonna be out.? ~:cheers:
Cant wait for it no longer..im slobbering all over me pc just by looking at them piks.


**tapps his fingers quickly..**
when is it gonna be out...when is it gonna be out...:hide:


:bow:
Viktor of Astaroth.

Ludens
12-10-2005, 19:21
Oh and yea...by da way...when's this mod gonna be out.? ~:cheers:
Cant wait for it no longer..im slobbering all over me pc just by looking at them piks.
I can answer the second question: when it's done. A member in another thread estimated it might take another year. However, the open beta will hopefully released within this month, unless the team suffers another reversal.

Teleklos Archelaou
12-10-2005, 19:52
Hooray...nicely done., one question though...if im rome, and i conquere the hellon city states..does rome get to do the olympic games too.? :charge: Nah. Romans aren't able to compete in the olympics. There are some fluke instances to the contrary, but generally they didn't. It's for the best though; no one wants to see a bunch of naked barbaric Romaioi running around Olympia. :san_laugh:

Malrubius
12-10-2005, 22:10
Nah. Romans aren't able to compete in the olympics. There are some fluke instances to the contrary, but generally they didn't. It's for the best though; no one wants to see a bunch of naked barbaric Romaioi running around Olympia. :san_laugh:


Lucky for me, this is one of those instances where historical accuracy matches with what's easy! :san_laugh:

the_handsome_viking
12-10-2005, 22:54
Nah. Romans aren't able to compete in the olympics. There are some fluke instances to the contrary, but generally they didn't. It's for the best though; no one wants to see a bunch of naked barbaric Romaioi running around Olympia. :san_laugh:

Do the stadiums get used for something more...roman? perhaps?