The Christianity Challenge

[Daisho]

Hello its my first post on the board and I have a few questions about christianity. I just recently started playing again partially because of the promise of the 1.13 patch, hopefully some of the strategic wrapper will be tweaked but anyway...

Ok, churches I take it both make priest and spread the religion of the foriegn devils, and it seems like it just spreads outward from the church--how far and how fast is this transformation? Is there any reason I should build more than 6 churches? Do priests also convert provinces or increase the rate at which they are converted? Can I use priests like shinobis to undermine my enemies? Any tips on how to use them? I've heard temples help halt the spread of christianity but by how much? And is there a way to get christians out of a province? When I convert should I have shinobi standing by to quell revolts? Basically just tell me what you do when playing as a christian, is there any nuance or is it broke as it stands?

Sorry if this is repeating anything on this forum and thanks for your response.

[Darth Wart]

I'm not the expert, but my advice is NEVER convert to christianity. Here's why:

1. The only thing you really get from Christianity is GUNS, which can't be used in bad weather and which, even in good weather, I have not found much better than archers.

2. Converting to Christianity is liable to cause countless rebellions in your own provinces, which will spread from province to province and you will be unable to stop losing nearly ALL your lands unless you have a nearly complete port system. Sadly, there seems to be a bug in the game whereby if you click on a church to have it build, your provinces from then on regard you as having converted to Christianity, even if you later take it out of the construction lineup and never do anything else Christianish.

3. Cathedrals are idiotic. Yes, you can build one after you build six churches. But since they take so long to build, and since the arrival of the Portuguese is time-based, by the time you get any money back from that cathedral, you've covered most of the map and you don't need the dough anymore. Same problem with the gun factory: by the time it's up and working, the game's practically over and you don't need what it provides. Strategically, I feel this is a poorly thought out aspect of the game.

4. Warrior monks, being the most powerful unit on the battlefield, are your key to success, at least in single-player. I heard a lot of talk about the ideal army's composition, but I have little trouble going from one end of the map to the other making nothing but monks and the buildings that produce and improve them (the only pain in the rear is Cavalry archers, but there's a definite trick for them). I've conquered Japan with nothing but armies of solid monks so many times that it's getting a litte boring, so now I'm experimenting with Chrisitianity. And lemme tell you: it's causing me endless headaches; plus the troops suck.

There is one thing you should keep in mind about this advice: it's for single player only; I never play over the internet. Doubtless there a human opponent would latch onto such a strategy and fry you.

To answer YOUR specific questions, however:

1. I do not believe priests function as anything other than emissaries. They cannot counterspy and they do not help spread Chrisitanity (or speed up its acceptance) in provinces where there isn't already a church.

2. I can think of no reason for building more than six churches.

3. As for the question about can a shinobi stop a religious-based revolt, I don't know.

One thing I DON'T understand (and hopefully the next respondent will clarify) is exactly WHEN you convert to Christiantity:

a. when you click "accept" on the Portugueses' offer.

b. when you BEGIN to build a church

c. when you click on a church, putting it into the construction lineup for a province

d. when the church is FINISHED

Anybody know for sure? From my experiments it seems to be c.

[Ieyasu]

Actually, there is even less incentive for going the Christian route, because a little later in the game, a Dutch trader will arrive, and he offers guns without any religious strings attached. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So you can have guns later, without going Christian.

Personally, it's a strange bit of options... I would never do it. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[The Black Ship]

While what you guys say is true I have a different reason for going christian....it makes the game harder!!!

Yes priests are much like shinobi, they spread the word and can cause rebellons- but IMO not as well! One other thing is that like a emmisary they can act as spies w/o being taken out by Watch Towers.

Don't forget that by building a trading post you double the port income to 400 koku too.

Oh yeah... the easiest way to see when you are considered a convert is to save the game then read the description. That said I recall it's the turn after you start the church...again easy to see by the precipitous loyalty drops!

[This message has been edited by The Black Ship (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Yabusama]

A few thoughts on Christianity.
1. You start the game as an aesthist. When you build a temple you become buddhist, and then if you switch to christianity you can have probs with revolting peasants. If you do not build a temple and go straight to the churches your poor masses never seem to revolt. So basically aesthist to buddist to christian means big problems, but aethist to christian means very few problems.
2. Priests increase the rate at which a province becomes christian, but they can not be used to incite revolts. This can only be done by shinobi.
3.errrr... thats it.

[Obake]

OK Daisho,

Here's the full story on Christianity. I've gone Christian several times on HARD just to make the game more interesting so I have some experience here. I'll answer your questions then move on to correct some of the misconceptions I see with others posts.

The speed of a transformation to Christianity is actually based on the number of priests you have, not the number of churches. The more priests, the faster the conversion. The only advantage building more than 6 churches will provide you (other than building more priests) is the additional 100 koku you get for each once the cathedral is built. Personally, I have never built more than 6 and see no reason to.

Priests most definitely convert provinces. The more priests you have in a province, the faster it will convert also. You cannot use priest like Shinobi, but you can use them like emissaries, and they will counter-spy for you...as emissaries do.

Temples WILL slow the spread of Christianity in a province, but the counter is to just add a couple more priests. Without a priest in a province with a temple, conversion is virtually non-existant. The only way to get Christianity out of a province is to kill all the priests, and keep a big buddhist army in it.

When you convert, definitely make sure that you have at least one Shinobi in every province you control, more in those far away from your Daimyo. You can expect a minimum 25% drop in loyalty across the board and I have seen as much as 50% in some provinces. That takes a while to come back from.

Darth, the advantage to guns is unlimited ammo and there is also a severe morale impact that archers don't provide. They are definitely a unit to use, although relying too heavily on them is suicide. I've never run into the conversion happening when you add a church to the building queue, so I can't say with any certainty if you are right or wrong about that, but in either case, you have to plan ahead for what you know will happen! I don't know that I would characterize it as a bug if you are correct, because technically speaking, you convert to Christianity when you accept an alliance with the Portugese.

I wouldn't say that Cathedrals are idiotic. If you make the decision to convert, they are required to obtain muskets from the Portugese. Yes you still can build a Dutch trading post in a province that doesn't have Portugese, but that kind of defeats the purpose of adding the Christian challenge doesn't it.

I won't castigate you on monks since you don't play online, but if it's getting boring for you sweeping Japan with nothing but monks, set up some rules for yourself. You may want to consider only having 1 temple in all your provinces. That should make things more interesting for you! :lol

As far as the rest of the troops are concerned, they are no different than they would be if you remained Buddhist. In the manual, it says that monks are supposed to be significantly less effective against Christian troops. That is not the case however, but was the subject of a very good thread a couple of months back. I suggest that you check out some of those threads for some good discussion on Christianity. There are also some good ones over at the community Forum.

Finally, I wanted to correct you on one issue Yabu. You start the game as Buddhist. Every time I have gone Christian, except for a couple, I went directly there, bypassing the temples and the monks. In each of those cases, I still suffered the loyalty loss in my provinces. What will occur if you build a temple and THEN convert is that you will take a much bigger hit (50% loyalty drop being the minimum). So I can see where your thought comes from, but it doesn't quite work the way you thought.

I think that pretty much covers the whole Christianity thing (again). Any one else got something to add?



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[Yabusama]

Good answer Obake, apart from the last bit. Start a new game, save it and then go as if to load it. Where you see the list of save games if you right click on the saved game name a load of info pops up. You will see that the Diamyo is set as aesthist (one day I'll learn to spell that word if it kills me). Just a minor point Obake

[Obake]

That was complete news to me Yabu! I had never heard of that little trick before. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

You can bet that I'll be trying that one out tonight!

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[Daisho]

Thanks everybody for your replies (esp. Obake-san) now I'll have a go with it. I guess I should have made it clear that I was doing the christian thing for the fun factor alone, I have a picture in my head of Shimazu christian armies of teppo, spears, and no-dachi, so its kind of a role playing thing I suppose. I've cleaned the board with Mori monks enough to know just how effective buddhism can be!

Starting the game as an atheist is news to me too. I think it would make more sense to start as shinto, and then make the choice between the two foriegn religions (remember buddhism came from India by way of china centuries earlier, and it to had to accomodate local ways and win support from the rulers and the populace, but by Sengoku Jidai it was well entrenched and co-existed alongside shinto and clan religious practices).

Hopefully the next patch will spice up the religious options and make for real strategic choice. I like the campaign game because you have alot of battles of different koku-sized armies, and there's real incentive to preserve and nurture your troops. If its tweaked the solo-play could really shine...

Anybody else want to share their experiences with christian conversions? I for one would like to hear even more opinions and advise.

[This message has been edited by Daisho (edited 12-15-2000).]

[BanzaiZAP]

I sometimes play as Christian, because there is definitely a difference in gameplay. It's not easier, it's not better, but it is quite different.

Some advantages:
Poisonous Land - once you have a certain percentage of the population as Christian, then if that province is taken (or is already controlled) by a buddhist enemy, then the people will constantly revolt against them. This works very well when sending a priest deep behind the lines, and causing uprisings well inside his territory.

Priests - these guys are similar to shinobi, but they are completely unaffected by Watch Towers and other standard anti-shinobi stuff. The only way an enemy can get rid of your priest is ninja or geisha. Also, they're dirt cheap. I think that they are the least expensive piece in the game, and yet they still have most of the functions of shinobi, and spread the Word all at the same time!

Cathedral Koku Bonus - yes, it takes a while to get the building up, but it gives a cash bonus for EVERY church in Nippon, even the ones controlled by your enemies! Building extra churches, therefore, not only speeds up the converts, but also brings in more koku. Really, by the time your cathedral goes online, you should have eight to ten churches, which is several thousand koku per year! And that is NOT affected by bad harvests!

Early Guns - yes, opponents can get muskets from the Dutch, but Christians get arquebus twenty years before the Dutch show up - that's EIGHTY turns! You can steal a lot of provinces in eighty turns.... especially since the enemy will never have ANY guns of their own. And since arquebus are also dirt cheap, you can quickly push out hefty armies for low maintenance.

Monk Blunting - According to various inside sources (thanks, Target) the morale modifier is not as severe, so (supposedly) Christian troops will not suffer the morale loss that buddhist troops suffer when confronted by Warrior Monks. The jury is still out as to whether this is true or not.

No, I don't usually go Christian, but it really is a very different playing style, which can be a lot of fun. People who simply say "it sucks" probably tried to play it the same way they play Buddhist games, so no wonder they got hammered. You must remember to switch religions early, and have a good standing army for the first few years. You can not be too agressive in the early steps, simply because you need troops available to put down any early uprisings. Once your populace start to convert, you can set about converting the rest of the country out from under your opponents.

-- B)

[Darth Wart]

Well-spoken, BanzaiZAP and Obake! I shall have to reconsider my position on this.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

First thing first,I am a christian,and I am compelled to convert Japan(which I did,a christian,usuegi japan.)

I just bought the game,and am currently at easy level.I'm moving up to beat it at normal tonight.I'll tell you this,from what I'v seen,christianity is a great defnsive tool.

Once your provinces become converted,they will rebel constantly from the buddhist war mongers.(too bad you can't convert to muslim,Jihad....)THis can be a pain for an aggresive monkish buddist.

Early guns:Add a couple guns to the army,and watch'em run from the "fire sticks".

Mo Money:THat cathedral and Trade port really pump in the cash.

Buddhists monks arn't as effective.They don't make your guys run,but the monks are still -very- good fighters.

It's also nice to add another layre to the game you whouldn't get otherwise.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Tang Dualism can bo overcome.With sufficent enlightment,we can give substance to any distinction:Mind without body,north without south,pleasure without pain.Renember,enlightment is a function of will power,not of physical strength."-Shang-ji Yang,essays on mind and matter.

[solypsist]

while some people say they don't ever go Christian, every has at at least a few times just to see what happens. So try it a few times with and without.

[CEWest]

I did a search and stumbled on this to try and answer some of my questions. One question that isn't quite answered above is can (or does) putting a ton of priests in an enemy territory cause it to revolt? If so, is it only in territories owned by lords with temples? If not, WHY not? I'd assume if you convert an enemy province to 100% christianity and it is owned by a buddhist lord, I'd assume it would revolt...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Christian revolts can and do occur. It's slower than using Shinobi, however, since the Priests first bump up the province's Christianity percentage and *then* the provincial loyalty starts decreasing (because the people's religion is different than their lord's).

The enemy has a prime opportunity to try and assassinate your Priests (something he can't do to the Shinobi), but assuming he doesn't succeed, he has a fight in his hands pretty soon. Christian rebel armies are nastier than the average Shinobi-inspired rebels, because the former always have Arquebusiers or Musketeers.

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"Go to the battlefield firmly confident of victory, and you will come home with no wounds whatsoever. Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death."
- Uesugi Kenshin

[Slyspy]

I think you do start the game as an atheist (or possible agnostic) and only become buddhist/christian when you build the necessary relgious building.

As for when you become Christian, I think it works like this: When you sign a treaty with the Portugeuse you accept Christianity into your lands. However, you remain a Buddhist/athesist until you order the building of your first church. So just accepting the treaty and thus Christianity will not cause revolts etc. Yourself and your subjects are still Buddhist. However, if Christianity spreads acroos your borders from enemy lands than it can cause problems (it can spread without the use of priests, I've seen it). Then your religion is not the same as your subjects religion and the province loyalty goes down as the percentage Christian goes up. So you can get guns early without religious troubles. On the other hand if you covert early by building a church then you will need to garrison every province with shinobi and or priests and troops in order to prevent your Buddhist subject from rebelling.
That is how it has worked in my games anyway.

By the way Death Wart, guns a great. Extremely cheap and very effective once you have learned to use them correctly. Bored with conquering Japan constantly? Then play the game as it was designed to be played: use a selection of diffrent troop types.

Priest do not counter-spy. That is what ninja and shinobi are for. But they spy for you, offer treaties just like emmisaries, and convert the plebs to Christianity. Building a church in a province will convert it more quickly than a single priest will (but then it costs more).

I agree with those who say that the cathedral appears too late in the game to be of any importance. In fact in most games I have never built a castle sufficiently large. If you do build one then your tithe income is based on the Christian population of Japan. So the more church-goers, the more money. Hence sending priests to convert enemy lands.

Christian soldier are supposedly less likely to run from monks than Buddhist troops, but are unfortunately just as likely to die!

Did I mention that gunsmoke looks cool floating across the battlefield?

Sorry about all the speiling mistaks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[This message has been edited by Slyspy (edited 02-05-2001).]

[Soapyface]

Like Daisho I go Christian when I'm playing as Shimazu, look at the picture of the guy... standing there looking imperious and holding a gun. IMO going Christian is an advantage the earlier you do it - when your lands are still relatively small so there's less revolts to contend with, and so you can steal a lead on gun production on any of your enemies. So as Shimazu I go for a fearsome army of arquebusiers, no-dachi, with yari and archer support. Watch your enemies turn and flee!!!

[PfhorKen]

Quote Originally posted by Ieyasu:

Actually, there is even less incentive for going the Christian route, because a little later in the game, a Dutch trader will arrive, and he offers guns without any religious strings attached. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So you can have guns later, without going Christian.

Personally, it's a strange bit of options... I would never do it. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.[/QUOTE]

It makes sence from histrical point of view.

1543 : Gun was imported from Portugal
1549 : Fist Priest, Francisco de Xavier, arrived Japan (Christian spreaded out).
1609 : Dutch arrived Japan (but they never taught Christianity)
1613 : Portuguese priest were exiled (Christianity was prohibited.)
1639 : Any foreigner were exiled except for Dutch trader.

[lanza27]

Very interesting point of history there. Glad to hear it.

I go christian as a challenge and adventure. It really has no tactical advantage or monetary advantage as i've harped on about many times before.

But it is fun and provides different routs to play the game.

[Moriboy]

About halfway through my last campaign, Imagawa got a huge "Hojo Hoard" windfall courtesy of a sweet Yari cavalry charge. It pays to ally with a stupid & reckless Daimyo I suppose. Shortly thereafter, Imagawa converted to Christianity and before long I had priests running through my provinces like flies on carrion.
I sent as many ninja as I could to dispatch the vermin, and nailed a few (pun intended). It's bad enough I send my tiny cyberdudes to an early grave than subject them and their families to Christianity. Oh my, did I say that? A thousand pardons...
In any case, I checked my provinces to assess the impact they were having and my people were still happy little campers. I only had a shinobi or ninja in about every fifth province, and no garrisons whatsoever except on borders with enemies. Then again, I keep my taxes low. Imagawa however, seemed to have uprisings galore for for a few years. Ah well, whither goest thou.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

This was because Imagawa was incompetent (big surprise there http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif ). Going Christian is all about securing your provinces and converting them while they are secure. In that case, Imagawa had a Christian daimyô but Buddhist subjects. This is a volatile combination (watch out for the Ikkô-boogeyman), and requires lots of Shinobi to keep stable for long periods.

When going Christian, you have to start building churces everywhere at once, it's the only way to facilitate a survivable rate of conversion among your subjects. Also, any Priests you get should be used for converting your own population, not your enemies'. Causing a Christian revolt in an enemy province requires that province to have at least about 30% Christian population (that assuming the enemy has no Shinobi), and that requires a truckload of Priests to do quickly.

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- Takeda Shingen