EU yes or no?

[Kagemusha]

EDIT(as panzer reguested.):Yes or No.I personally think that the EU is weakling because of its share size.We should uphold the trade agreements but there is no point of federal state of EU,because EU nations have too different cultures to begin with.I think that if Federal states should be created they should be created out of Nations that share the same culture like Northern countries.

[Sjakihata]

I'll dance on the grave of EU ~:cheers:

[PanzerJaeger]

The poll is somewhat hard to understand.

It says EU: Yes or No. But then you ask, should we disband the EU?

I say no to the EU and I say "yes", disband it. ~;)

[Kagemusha]

I'll dance on the grave of EU ~:cheers:

I will drink to that. ~:cheers:
Panzer there is the initial question and then the explanation.Just read the first question and answer to it. ~;)

[Sjakihata]

The poll is somewhat hard to understand.

It says EU: Yes or No. But then you ask, should we disband the EU?

I say no to the EU and I say "yes", disband it. ~;)


Yes = keep EU and expand it

No = demolish EU

the way I read it

[Meneldil]

I say disband, then start a new, less technocratic and more democratic union with countries really willing to cooperate.

Edit : I voted yes, but yes to disband. Silly me :embarassed:

[JAG]

Pro EU and pretty happy with that fact. All those who want to do without it either miss the point, the facts or reality in a whole.

[Sjakihata]

Pro EU and pretty happy with that fact. All those who want to do without it either miss the point, the facts or reality in a whole.

No my friend, it is you who (a) miss reality or (b) want to play along the games of the oligarchic elite.

EU is no democracy, that's a fact. EU control, through directives etc, a lot of national laws. Laws that affect people. And the people have NO say, what so ever, in these laws. Is that fair? Hell no.

[PanzerJaeger]

I say disband, then start a new, less technocratic and more democratic union with countries really willing to cooperate.

Edit : I voted yes, but yes to disband. Silly me

As I said.. confusing poll.. ~D

[Kagemusha]

As I said.. confusing poll.. ~D

Happy now? :wall:

[PanzerJaeger]

Happy now?

No, Im most displeased about the lack of a space between "I" and "personally" in the first line. In fact, it disgusts me. :beadyeyes:


Ipersonally


:smartass2:

[Kagemusha]

Anything else that comes to your mind? :computer:

[Kanamori]

What does it take to make you people happy? I mean, the man tried. Why do you want more?
:book:

[PanzerJaeger]

Anything else that comes to your mind?

The whole structure of your paragraph needs to be revised. Im not pleased with your word choices at all. Have the draft in my PM box by tommorow, at the latest! Hrrrumph! :scholar: :deal2:

[Kagemusha]

The whole structure of your paragraph needs to be revised. Im not pleased with your word choices at all. Have the draft in my PM box by tommorow, at the latest! Hrrrumph! :scholar: :deal2:

Draft my.... :knight:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yes.

As in 'yes, gimme more EU'. As in 'yes, more peace, progress and prosperity please'.

14.000 rules on the curving of bananas may be a monstruosity, but it still beats 25 conflicting sets of 14.000 rules on the curving of bananas. :book:


Edit: LOL, PJ. ~D

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Draft his Fuedal Man-at-Arms?

:dizzy2:

~;)

[Kagemusha]

Bloody Yanks! ~;)

[Kagemusha]

Isnt it intresting that when you look at poll results,you see that the pro EU guys are from central Europe and No EU guys are from US(obvious),Britain and Scandinavia.Wonder why?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Isnt it intresting that when you look at poll results,you see that the pro EU guys are from central Europe and No EU guys are from US(obvious),Britain and Scandinavia.Wonder why?Pro = JAG, Louis IV, Ronin.

Meneldil, like a democratic voter in Florida, was tricked into voting the exact opposite of what he intended to by the confusing polling system.

JAG is British. Ronin is Portugese - which I wouldn't call Central European.

Leaving yours truly as the sole central European supporter of the Franco-German 'axis of EUvil'.

[Marcellus]

I'm for Europe myself: peace in Europe, trade benefits, political unity and so forth.

[Adrian II]

Meneldil[/B], like a democratic voter in Florida, was tricked into voting the exact opposite of what he intended to by the confusing polling system. Good one. ~D
Leaving yours truly as the sole central European supporter of the Franco-German 'axis of EUvil'.Fat chance, brother Louis. Your country is situated below the garlic parallel, you guys aren't for real.

[Kagemusha]

Here goes another fine conspiracy theory. ~:mecry: Atleast there arent a single one patron from Norther countries that has voted pro EU. ~;)

[AggonyDuck]

I voted yes, because there is much good that the EU could achieve, if heavily reformed that is. Currently EU is doing it's job poorly though and if there isn't a improvement soon you might as well scrap the whole thing. :bow:

And there goes your statement Kagemusha... ~:)

[Kagemusha]

I voted yes, because there is much good that the EU could achieve, if heavily reformed that is. Currently EU is doing it's job poorly though and if there isn't a improvement soon you might as well scrap the whole thing. :bow:

And there goes your statement Kagemusha... ~:)

It seems like everything i say today is false.Maybe i just ought to shut up.This is just one of those days. :help:

[Zharakov]

As I said in another thread... I have mixed feelings....

I truly fear that the EU could become the next CCCP... I also have people here in Volensk *Which is in Asia* who feel that Europeans are nothing but troble...

But I would give anything to see Europe in a state of peace... But I do not like how manny nations are Scocialist...


So as I said before... I have mixed feelings...

[LeftEyeNine]

Yes to EU.. Really !. I mean in globally politic terms, EU is a need.. A peaceful polarity which is impossible to grow as a nuclear superpower, but powerful enough to draw a line when needed..

I absolutely don't want Turkey in EU, but let EU live..

[Strike For The South]

The EU is just another pathetic attempt to unsaid America as "undisputed champion of the wrold" and unfortuantly the EU countries have no chance of stopping us for 2 reasons

1. We are greedy greedy bastards
2. If anyone ever truly gets ahead of us the nukes will be used

So you silly euros can play house but we will continue to suck third wrold countries dry push around 2nd rate superpowers and keep giving China the notion they could actually compete with us ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~D

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The EU is just another pathetic attempt to unsaid America as "undisputed champion of the wrold" and unfortuantly the EU countries have no chance of stopping us for 2 reasons

1. We are greedy greedy bastards
2. If anyone ever truly gets ahead of us the nukes will be used

So you silly euros can play house but we will continue to suck third wrold countries dry push around 2nd rate superpowers and keep giving China the notion they could actually compete with us ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~D

The tone of your post would have been much clearer if the beer-drinking had been used as an intro.

Seamus

[Duke of Gloucester]

I would love to reform the EU to make it looser and more about trade than political union, but everyone would have to admit that, as far as Europe is concerned the 2nd half of the 20th century was much better than the first half.

[Edex]

More yes then no, but I agree - EU should improve a lot - it has oportunities, buts its too byrocratic right now.

[Xiahou]

Well, I'll vote 'no'- because if I was a European I'd be vehemently against it- because I think it'd be a disaster for Europe. But, as an American, it gets a 'gah'- I could care less what they do. ~:cheers:

[Meneldil]

Well, I think I've been misunderstood. I voted yes to 'should we disband the EU ?' because I think the European institutions are kinda screwed up atm. Plus I don't see why people who don't like the EU would have to stay here.

But then, I'm all for a european federal state, an european common language and currency, a same law system. It's just that I think the current EU has too many flaws.
So, I also answer yes to the 'EU yes or no ?' question. (now that's confusing :dizzy2: )


Meneldil, like a democratic voter in Florida, was tricked into voting the exact opposite of what he intended to by the confusing polling system.

ROFL, it reminds me of the 'You don't want to not vote for John Kerry ? - Are you sure ? Really ? Are you really REALLY sure ?' video from boomChicago.nl ~D

[Bartix]

Iam not sure. ~:confused:

May be as cagemush say split administrative unit into more like minded smaller bits (Nordic, Central, Club Med/Garlic belt and let British take care of selves and Ireland...) and then free trade etc. in between. ~:handball:

Culture is so different, EU so big, so much administration so many countries that must be agreeing... ~:grouphug:

[Franconicus]

Yes! But do not focus on making it bigger but in making it better. I rather have a small EU unified than a big diverted one.

I really think we should have a core EU for those country who want a political and social unit. ~:grouphug: France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Italy, ... . Those who do not want that - that is all right. They can have trade agreements and close cooperation. ~:cheers:

[Sigurd]

NO - We will not join!!!

[Louis VI the Fat]

NO - We will not join!!!We'll make you. :duel:

All your oil are belong to us...

[Louis VI the Fat]

I really think we should have a core EU for those country who want a political and social unit. ~:grouphug: France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Italy, ... . Those who do not want that - that is all right. They can have trade agreements and close cooperation. ~:cheers:Yes, I think is the only realistic way forward too.

[Ja'chyra]

The EU is a good idea, but there is a long way to go yet.


The EU is just another pathetic attempt to unsaid America as "undisputed champion of the wrold" and unfortuantly the EU countries have no chance of stopping us for 2 reasons

1. We are greedy greedy bastards
2. If anyone ever truly gets ahead of us the nukes will be used

So you silly euros can play house but we will continue to suck third wrold countries dry push around 2nd rate superpowers and keep giving China the notion they could actually compete with us

I take it that was a joke? And it's unseat.

[cegorach]

Yes keep it and expand it ( Ukraine and Georgia for example), no too close federal state, though.

I am also against so-called 'core' EU - were not the irrational French and the 'noone-likes-us' Dutch who voted against the constitution ( not bad in my opinion) - what 'core' would be created this way ?
It would be an asylum not a 'leading power'.

Regards Cegorach ~;)

[Duke of Gloucester]

Well, I'll vote 'no'- because if I was a European I'd be vehemently against it- because I think it'd be a disaster for Europe. But, as an American, it gets a 'gah'- I could care less what they do. ~:cheers:

I think you can argue it is a bad thing, but a disaster would be World War 1 or World War 2.

[Meneldil]

Huhu, surprisingly, all americans are anti-EU. ~:pimp:

[Adrian II]

Huhu, surprisingly, all americans are anti-EU. ~:pimp:http://matousmileys.free.fr/wink6.gif

[ShadesWolf]

NO to the EU

Let it die

[drone]

Huhu, surprisingly, all americans are anti-EU. ~:pimp:
As an American, I voted GAH! If you want a bloated federal bureaucracy incapable of representing the people fairly across most of a continent, sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, welcome to the club! More power to you, but I thought you would have been paying a little more attention to what has been happening on this side of the pond. ~;)

[Adrian II]

More power to you, but I thought you would have been paying a little more attention to what has been happening on this side of the pond. ~;)Oh but we have. You lot have been doing rather well for yourselves over the past two hundred years. We want something similar, but based on a different dream with less hard work and guns and stuff, and more leisure and sex, good food, marijuana.

Or would you prefer us to start another World War for you? Giddaddaheah!

[King Ragnar]

Britian to join the scandnavian union!!!!

[Rodion Romanovich]

I'll dance on the grave of EU ~:cheers:

~:cheers: I would kick the EU when it's lying on the ground defenseless...

All they do is come up with stuff like "Strawberries are illegal to call strawberries if they'r radius is smaller than bla bla". And they cost tax payer money because they claim they need to drink Dom Perignon 58 when they discuss those things.

[BDC]

Britian to join the scandnavian union!!!!
Yes!

My blond hair clearly shows Viking blood! Let me back in my long lost cousins...

:p

[Louis VI the Fat]

Isnt the pro EU guys are from central Europe and No EU guys are from US(obvious),Britain and Scandinavia.Not surprisingly, it turned out you were correct after all... :balloon2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm all for an european common language Forget it.

Them petty, obstinate British and Germans will never give in. ~:smoking:



Edit: Er, I hope all you Brits and Germans understood that I, in fact, was poking fun at a certain unnamed central European nation that in a somewhat petty and obstinate manner demands unrealistic privileges for her own language...

[drone]

Oh but we have. You lot have been doing rather well for yourselves over the past two hundred years. We want something similar, but based on a different dream with less hard work and guns and stuff, and more leisure and sex, good food, marijuana.

Or would you prefer us to start another World War for you? Giddaddaheah!
How exactly are you going to start a world war? You'll be too busy eating gourmet food, having guilt-free sex, and hitting the bong to care about anything else. It takes hard work (and guns) to start a war! The only war you will have is when your half-baked MEPs have a pate-fight while trying to regulate acceptable lingerie colors for prostitutes. ~D

[Adrian II]

It takes hard work (and guns) to start a war!We still have the Russians, remember? You guys will be too busy fighting over the pros and cons of Inferior Design to know what hits you.

[Brenus]

Yes to EU. I travelled in Europe during the last 10 years and I am quiet happy:
1: Bank stopped to make benefit on my money at each exchange ~:)
2: not spending hours at borders ~:)

Because EU, I am a generation of French which didn’t had to fight against Germany or other European countries. No war on the European Union territory.

All laws and recommendations have to be ratified by the Sovereign Country before enforcement: EU has nothing to do with what each country decides to do. :book:

No EU, France have no obligation to UK so all emigrants can freely board trains, boats or planes to go in UK if they choose to. No Sangate, no Europolice etc…

All the mafias and other terrorists will join people who want to dance on EU grave… ~D

No EU, no development in Spain after Franco, in Portugal after St Lazarre, no help for Ireland, Greece, no reconstruction in Former Yugoslavia, just seeds for poverty and future wars…

On the other hand, no EU, perhaps the core (France, Germany, Belgium and the other one which want) will ban the UK car with their driving wheel at the wrong side… Let’s flood the Tunnel, and UK will trade with US and Australia… And Zimbabwe. No money given to EU and no benefit from EU. Visa needed to go to Calais, and green cards to work in EU. My wife is English, so no problem for me. Ok, it will decrease the sells of the SUN newspaper but at least the English will have reasons to complain, after having lost all the common market, or having to pay all the taxes... ~D

[drone]

We still have the Russians, remember? You guys will be too busy fighting over the pros and cons of Inferior Design to know what hits you.
Bah, the Russians are our friends now. GWB has looked into the heart of Putin and seen a good man. They will only jump us if their shadowy, corrupt, corporations tell their politicians that they no longer like our shadowy, corrupt corporations. ~;)

You still have the Swiss though...

[Zharakov]

Huhu, surprisingly, all americans are anti-EU. ~:pimp:


The Americans arnt the only ones...

[Lazul]

A strong united Scandinavia (maybe the UK ~;) ) But no god damn EU!

*bitchlslaps EU* you go to hell! you go to hell and die!

[Sjakihata]

never will we be "united" with sweden, we shall conquor them :dizzy2:

[JAG]

Oh but we have. You lot have been doing rather well for yourselves over the past two hundred years. We want something similar, but based on a different dream with less hard work and guns and stuff, and more leisure and sex, good food, marijuana.

Or would you prefer us to start another World War for you? Giddaddaheah!

You put it so well my friend. :bow:

[bmolsson]

EU is coming, regardless if you like it or not.....

[King Henry V]

The Eu resembles are tired, overworked car which thinks it can be the best car on the block and more than just a car. And there's only one thing which these cars need. Scrapping. Let's face it, if a country wanted to go to war with antoher, no entity like the EU will be able to stop it. The fact that there hasn't been a war in Western Europe since 1945 is simply because everyone remebered the horrors of WWII and there wasn't much to fight about. And that other ridiculous invention of the EU, the euro has brought sluggish growth, high prices and high unemployment. The political side is a farce of corrupt EMPs, unelected officials (like that crook Peter Mandelson) and civil servants inc ushy jobs. Just make it a free trade zone and have done with it.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@King Henry V: Amen! That's by far the best 6 lines long summary of EU I've ever seen!

[Bulawayo]

Yes from my professional point of view. I really love exporting things to other EU countries since I dont have to send invoices to the customs for every single shipment. It was a lot of extra work before Sweden joined EU in 1994, which mostly disappeared after that ~:cheers:

But then there are other things I dont like. Maybe I should have voted GAH!

[Meneldil]

Let's face it, if a country wanted to go to war with antoher, no entity like the EU will be able to stop it. The fact that there hasn't been a war in Western Europe since 1945 is simply because everyone remebered the horrors of WWII and there wasn't much to fight about.

Yeah, sure, nothing like millions of soviet soldiers on Poland and Hungary western borders, waiting the good time to invade western Europe. Nothing like hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at Paris, London and Roma.

Now, you're young, and you might think 'they would never have invaded us, that's total crap', but I doubt people western Europeans thought the same way a few decades ago.


And that other ridiculous invention of the EU, the euro has brought sluggish growth, high prices and high unemployment.

Oh wait, I thought this was caused by the oil shocks in 1973 and 1979. Am I mistaken ?

[Viking]

NO - We will not join!!!

Cheers, brother in arms.



We'll make you. :duel:

All your oil are belong to us...

Over my dead body.

[King Ragnar]

Man i wish i lived in scandanavia or the Uk joined u guys in a union, god what a dream that is, one day my long lost scandanavian brothers we will all unite and not join that dam EU!!!

[Lazul]

*hugs King Ragnar* :bow:

[Infestus]

Most of the comments on this thread were made by Northern Europeans. This is the perspective of a South European.

Now let's analyse this from two prespectives:

Economically:

Apart from what you may think, the ones who benefit, from the conomical point of view are the richest countries. Mainly due to it's strnger influence on the control of the import/export balance of the smaller countries.
Even if the small countries receive Financial help (which is completly diferent) after a few years, the true adavantage go to the bigger countries, not the smallest.

The smaller contries are forced to obey production quotas, which cannot be passed.
This economical system only makes the rich countries grow richer. It is the result of the pressure of the companies over politics, which should never happen, and was not the original ideia.

From this perspective im agaisnt it, or at least i think a lot could be changed.


Politically:

It is an utopia. However i believe on it, and the final objective is achievable.

Dispite of what people may say, ther isnt such a diference bettween the countries and their cultures. In many aspects we can speak of a Europpean society, with common values and philosophies.

EU was born of the need of keeping both peace, and prosperity on Europe. If it manages to keep evolving on the next decades nothing will stop it, and eventually it will become a federation. The only obstacle is the uncooperative countries...

Overall i do believe on EU, and what many people taught to be impossible has already been made. The europpean union broke the Europpean cycle of wars that had been going on for centuries, and there has never been such a long peace over Europe such as now.

Correct me if m wrong about anything.

[King Henry V]

Yeah, sure, nothing like millions of soviet soldiers on Poland and Hungary western borders, waiting the good time to invade western Europe. Nothing like hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at Paris, London and Roma.

Now, you're young, and you might think 'they would never have invaded us, that's total crap', but I doubt people western Europeans thought the same way a few decades ago.



Oh wait, I thought this was caused by the oil shocks in 1973 and 1979. Am I mistaken ?
I said Western Europe. There hasn't been a war between Western European countries since 1945. There were no cases where two EU countries were really at odds with each other and only the EU was able to defuse the situation. And it can't claim anything to do with the Cold War because it only became the European Union after the collapse of communism.

The information I got was in the Alternatives Economiques which I was reading today in the Library. On it's front cover was "Pourquoi l'euro ne tient pas ses promesses" ("Why the euro is not keeping its promises"). There they showed a graph comparing different countries in the world with their growth rates in 1998 and 2004. America, Japan and China's growth had risen, whilst the UK had fallen somewhat. However, growth in the Eurozone economies had almost halved. Unemployment has risen too since 2000/02. As for prices, well I sometimes go to shop in France. Before the euro, it used to be much cheaper than in Switzerland. Now, with certain products such as vegetables, it's the same price in Switzerland! I go to Nice once a year for Easter holidays. Prices are ludicrously expensive there! Supermarkets, restauranters and virtually everyone else have taken the opportunity to round up the prices a bit higher. In Germany it's called the teuro! They give you the thought that you're saving money on exchange rates and everything, but rob you blind elsehwere. Once again, they show themselves eminently capable of crookery. I think you will be easily able to verify these facts for yoursleves.

http://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/

[Stefan the Berserker]

The most important purpose of the EU is to preserve the security of the Continent and cooperation between its countries.

Its main purpose is based on Immanuel Kant's "Zum ewigen Frieden", similar to the UN. The theory is, that any human society uses Laws to regualte conflicts between individuals. Kant developed the Idea of a League of Nations which should regualte the relations and conflicts between Nations and the theory of International Law.

Woodrow Wilson adopted the Idea and propulsed it into the first League of Nations. Thus Association failed because of abuse by Great Britain turning it into a tool for an Attempt to recreate the Pax Britannica, which is a major spoof of its ideal.

After World War II the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France agreed on its current Form (UN).

However Germany, France, Italy and the BeNeLux States considered the possebility of an own European Confederation which grew into the EU.

The EU has reached most of Kant's ideals and even topped them:

- It is headed by a democrathic Parilament
- It obtains an equal and united Citizenship for its people
- Freedom of moval and trade
- common laws
- common currency

The Nationalist Wing can of course not accept that their Nation is accepting a higher authority. Its just about that someone pulled Nationalism on the Altar of pray, must view this as a kind of hereticism.

[Slyspy]

I think the whole project should be pulled down and started again. The goal is worthwhile, but the current organization is materially corrupt, morally bankrupt and an unrepresentative closed shop in which self-regulation repeatedly fails. Just like Westminister in fact, but with more travel expenses.

[bmolsson]

NO - We will not join!!!

You are already a part of it, just that you don't want to accept it. EU is a large ship in an ocean and Norway is a little row boat in a rope being dragged after the EU ship. In the little row boat all the Norwegians wave their flags and sing Norwegian folk music.
Get real, Norway need EU more than EU need Norway......

[Divinus Arma]

It seems to me that a European Union would create a real rival to American power. Since I think that the American Federal Government has too much power as is, I would have to say NO to EU if I were in Europe. The reason is that a larger federal government trumps the power and rights of smaller governments, which are more representative of individuals.

EU is a bad idea for individuals and a good idea for socialist and those who wish to control the behavior of others. A closely linked culture and society would be a better idea IMO. The currency seemed to be a good idea. An overall governance? Not so good.

I would have liked to see an American confederacy with very slightly stronger federal power. The CSA would have been great once they eventually banned slavery.

[Sigurd]

You are already a part of it, just that you don't want to accept it. EU is a large ship in an ocean and Norway is a little row boat in a rope being dragged after the EU ship. In the little row boat all the Norwegians wave their flags and sing Norwegian folk music.
Get real, Norway need EU more than EU need Norway......
We are not a part of the EU and probably will never be a member. That does not mean we don’t have agreements or arrangements with the EU (EØS and Schengen).

A full membership will be devastating to the possession of our natural resources. A membership in the EU will give EU the right to use our sea resources as they see fit. And they will probably sell quotas to the highest bidder. They could set our goods taxes as they see fit which would mean a loss in important welfare income. The costal districts would loose its survival basis and will result in ghost towns.
The fact that we can close our borders if the need arises, as when the meat products of EU were contaminated, is a clear reason why we should stay out.

Norway do not need the EU… we can sell our fish elsewhere. The Russian marked is opening up right now and thousand year old trading routs are rediscovered in the east. That was the way we went before and that is the way we can go again. The US is already there drilling oil and gas and we can help. We are in possession of serious expertise in that area.

Besides, a union has never been good for Norway. We do best on our own.

[Rodion Romanovich]

- It is headed by a democrathic Parilament


Lies and deceit, the parliament has no official power. Those who do have power, are not democratically elected. In fact, all the Parliament are allowed to do is TALK.



- It obtains an equal and united Citizenship for its people


This Citizenship only exists by name. And people don't want to be united like that, people want to preserve their own culture.



- Freedom of moval and trade


If you have the wrong skin color, you'll still be harassed at all borders. Freedom of movement is not necessary unless their oppression in your home country. Free trade can be achieved without a dictatorship political union.



- common laws


We don't want that. The fact that I still live in my home country is because I like it's laws. Nothing could be worse than applying the laws of other countries to my country. Our laws won't be spread to the other nations, we'll be forced to use theirs. And why would we even want to spread our own laws? All countries have the right to have their own law and culture and should be respected.



The Nationalist Wing can of course not accept that their Nation is accepting a higher authority. Its just about that someone pulled Nationalism on the Altar of pray, must view this as a kind of hereticism.

What is the difference between Nationalism with a small country and Nationalism with a large union-country without democratic leadership? Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

The failure to respect people's need for freedom and preserving of their own culture and law will result in rebellions and civil war, which I'll personally take part in when they've grown sufficiently large.

[Meneldil]

I said Western Europe. There hasn't been a war between Western European countries since 1945. There were no cases where two EU countries were really at odds with each other and only the EU was able to defuse the situation. And it can't claim anything to do with the Cold War because it only became the European Union after the collapse of communism.

My point precisely. There hasn't been a war in western Europe because western Europeans had to be united against the red threat.
Right after the war, and until the early 50, Germany was still considered as a threat by most of the French. I'm not saying a war would have been possible, but events like the post WWI ones (occupation of wealthy regions) would likely have occured without European cooperation.


The information I got was in the Alternatives Economiques which I was reading today in the Library. On it's front cover was "Pourquoi l'euro ne tient pas ses promesses" ("Why the euro is not keeping its promises"). There they showed a graph comparing different countries in the world with their growth rates in 1998 and 2004. America, Japan and China's growth had risen, whilst the UK had fallen somewhat. However, growth in the Eurozone economies had almost halved. Unemployment has risen too since 2000/02.

Huh, I think either you did not really understood what you read, or the article was somewhat biased. Obviously, the Euro is not keeping its promises, mainly because it did not grant a huge growth to all Euro zone countries and did not boost european exports.
But then, the sluggish growth of the Euro countries is France and Germany fault. Look at say, Ireland, Finland, Spain. They have some of the higgest grow rates of the EU, and of the western world. Euro is not guilty of a sluggish growth.

And yes, Euro raised some prices (mainly food and necessity goods), but from what I remember of my econmy lessons, prices always rise when a new currency is introduced (btw, Euro also reduced the cost of many other goods. But as usual, people only see what's more expensive, and not what is cheaper)



A full membership will be devastating to the possession of our natural resources. A membership in the EU will give EU the right to use our sea resources as they see fit.

Yeah, don't let the bad EU look at 'your' resources and just fish the hell out of it, so you don't have anything remaining to fish in 50 years. Way to go Norway, Japan and Russia ~:thumb:
Anyway, whales will have disapeared in 10 years, so who cares about some unknow fish species ?



Lies and deceit, the parliament has no official power. Those who do have power, are not democratically elected. In fact, all the Parliament are allowed to do is TALK.

Wrong. They do have official power. It's just that they have power related to useless stuffs. Too bad the treaty won't be accepted. It would have expanded the Parliament power.


This Citizenship only exists by name. And people don't want to be united like that, people want to preserve their own culture.

Wrong once again (or well, it may be true in northern countries, given the comments I can read here). First, the European citizenship does *give* european rights. Second, most people in France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, don't really care about their culture. I mean, I meet young people who already speak 3 or 4 european languages, visited even more european countries and have friend all accross EU, on a daily basis in my University. If I travel to Spain, I won't find myself in a new, unknown world. Apart from the language and a fews other things, Spain and France are very similar, and I'm fairly sure the same could be said about France and Sweden or Finland. It's not gonna be as if I travelled to Japan or Uganda.



Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

Yeah, it's a well known fact that EU is such a tyrannical, police-state. But as long as you avoid to deal with the EuroStapo (European State Polizei), it will be alright ~:cool:.

Furthermore, I don't see how EU threaten your culture ~:confused:

[King Henry V]

My point precisely. There hasn't been a war in western Europe because western Europeans had to be united against the red threat.
Right after the war, and until the early 50, Germany was still considered as a threat by most of the French. I'm not saying a war would have been possible, but events like the post WWI ones (occupation of wealthy regions) would likely have occured without European cooperation.

No, they were united because of NATO.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wrong. They do have official power. It's just that they have power related to useless stuffs. Too bad the treaty won't be accepted. It would have expanded the Parliament power.


Yes, but that official power is restricted to come with suggestions that nobody is obliged to obey. Which means they haven't got more power than you and me when we discuss this in a forum on the Internet.



Wrong once again (or well, it may be true in northern countries, given the comments I can read here). [...] Second, most people in France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, don't really care about their culture.


Yes, most smaller countries get nothing out of the EU. Most smaller countries that voted yes to EU were fooled by propaganda. For the smaller countries, EU only causes problems. For the larger countries, EU has it's good points, that I can't deny.

I was a little biased to see EU from the perspective of the smaller members in my posts above, which weren't serious debating, just an outburst of rage over what EU does to the smaller countries. Anyway, EU might be a good idea for the big but the small should leave the union, or preferably be officially thrown out of it by orders from the bigger countries if the politicans refuse to let the citizens revote now that they know what EU really means for the smaller countries.

[Geoffrey S]

For the EU to be effective in the future it needs to be more controlled, it needs longterm goals, and it really needs more authority. All these things would improve the EU as a whole, but don't sit well at all with national sentiments, and thus with governments. As long as the EU doesn't have the power to enforce it's authority it will remain an ideal, a quagmire of bureaucracy.

The sad truth is that nationalist sentiments and EU authority cannot be reconciled; at some point we'll have to choose between the two, and that choice is proving extremely difficult to make.

[bmolsson]

We are not a part of the EU and probably will never be a member. That does not mean we don’t have agreements or arrangements with the EU (EØS and Schengen).


~:) As I said..... ~;)



Besides, a union has never been good for Norway. We do best on our own.


~:grouphug: ~:grouphug:

You are so...... Norwegian...... ~:grouphug:

[Zalmoxis]

As far as I can tell, the EU will use Eastern European nations as staelite states and slowly indtroduce the western cultures, so a big NO.

[Stefan the Berserker]

We don't want that. The fact that I still live in my home country is because I like it's laws. Nothing could be worse than applying the laws of other countries to my country. Our laws won't be spread to the other nations, we'll be forced to use theirs. And why would we even want to spread our own laws? All countries have the right to have their own law and culture and should be respected.

1) Don't use WE if you are talking about what you personally want.

2) The Parilament creates common Laws, which are then acted out by the National Gouverments. You Country does also have Represantants in the Parilament you may vote all five years.

However I'm sure you have never taken part in such an Election since it is all Lie. ~;)


What is the difference between Nationalism with a small country and Nationalism with a large union-country without democratic leadership? Answer: the union-country without democratic leadership is undemocratic and people can no longer preserve their own laws, culture and freedom.

The failure to respect people's need for freedom and preserving of their own culture and law will result in rebellions and civil war, which I'll personally take part in when they've grown sufficiently large.

The European Union is no Nation. It has never been and will never become such.

It is a Confederation of 25 Nations who have created common Institutions. It touches Culture in no way.

But however I said it: Nationalists are ideologically unable to understand the resons for the EU and try to explain its existance with a fictious European Nationalism, which is the most sure nonsense.

The Background is the "League of Nations"-Theory by Immanuel Kant, not Nationalism. The European Union does also represent what Woodrow Wilson wanted to create on International Level.

---

Anyway you should consider what kinds of people denie the European Union: the facist Scum.

Take a short look at this Poster (http://medien.npd.de/index.php?path=download.php?fid=18)

[Rodion Romanovich]

1) Don't use WE if you are talking about what you personally want.


I speak for people in the smaller member countries.



2) The Parilament creates common Laws, which are then acted out by the National Gouverments. You Country does also have Represantants in the Parilament you may vote all five years.


The parliament can't create any laws at all. They can merely come with suggestions, nothing else. The fact that the EU has made a parliament without power the only thing you can vote for is an obvious attempt of creating a disguised elitist dictatorship.



However I'm sure you have never taken part in such an Election since it is all Lie. ~;)


I did vote, but what did it change?



The European Union is no Nation. It has never been and will never become such.


Define nation



But however I said it: Nationalists are ideologically unable to understand the resons for the EU and try to explain its existance with a fictious European Nationalism, which is the most sure nonsense.


Where did I say I was a nationalist, because I'm not ~:confused: Please don't assume things I didn't say. By that logic, I could assume you're a nazi, communist and like human sacrifice. Oh my God, what a terrible person you are!



Anyway you should consider what kinds of people denie the European Union: the facist Scum.


That's not a very democratic opinion - calling all dissenters fascist scum. I don't see why not wanting the smaller countries to be in the EU has to do with fascism? Please explain.

[Kagemusha]

Excuse me,Stefan Berserker but what do you mean when you say that people that are anti-EU are fascist scum?Please explain your wiew or should i just consider your statement as an insult?

[Sjakihata]

Actually, both the right wing and left wing don't want the EU. However, it is totally different reasons why the wont have it.

[Kagemusha]

Actually, both the right wing and left wing don't want the EU. However, it is totally different reasons why the wont have it.

I think that you are right Sjakihata.The reason im anti-EU is that EU has a negative effect at the economy of the Nordic countries.If we look at the most competitive countries in the world we can see that the scandinavian economical system is already more developed then the central European system.Here is a link (http://www.forbes.com/business/2004/10/13/cx_pm_1013gcr.html) to a comparison made by WEF.From the top six you will find Finland n.1,Denmark n.4 and Norway n.5.Personally im afraid that the kind of pre planned economy what Bryssels would like as to have is too immobile for our little economys.In another words we will fall behind in the economic race.

[Sjakihata]

I think that you are right Sjakihata.The reason im anti-EU is that EU has a negative effect at the economy of the Nordic countries.If we look at the most competitive countries in the world we can see that the scandinavian economical system is already more developed then the central European system.Here is a link (http://www.forbes.com/business/2004/10/13/cx_pm_1013gcr.html) to a comparison made by WEF.From the top six you will find Finland n.1,Denmark n.4 and Norway n.5.Personally im afraid that the kind of pre planned economy what Bryssels would like as to have is too immobile for our little economys.In another words we will fall behind in the economic race.

For me it's another concern. Namely, corruption, centralized democracy etc.

The fact that a non-elected comission runs the show and that the parliament has almost no power (it has increased, not by much though) and all the money/corruption scandals lately, makes me seriously doubt the EU and it has no place in my heart.

[Kagemusha]

Your reasons are valid Sjakihata.The EU has already gave us the benefits it can offer.I simply cant understand why in the next phase we should hand out our self-government.legistlation and right to choose,to a bunch of corrupted officials in Bryssels.Why?

[GonZ]

The common market idea seemed ok - a european trade block would still have my backing. As for A European federal state - a polite no thanks from this Englishman. Force it on me and I'll dig out my flag and pitchfork.

Good on you Norwegians, poke 'em in the eye!

[bmolsson]

corrupted officials in Bryssels.


We have to get rid of the corruption, not the new coming European federation...... ~;)

[Meneldil]

No, they were united because of NATO.


Do you know when Western Germany joined NATO ?
Do you know when France kinda retired from NATO ?


Yes, most smaller countries get nothing out of the EU. Most smaller countries that voted yes to EU were fooled by propaganda. For the smaller countries, EU only causes problems. For the larger countries, EU has it's good points, that I can't deny.

I was a little biased to see EU from the perspective of the smaller members in my posts above, which weren't serious debating, just an outburst of rage over what EU does to the smaller countries. Anyway, EU might be a good idea for the big but the small should leave the union, or preferably be officially thrown out of it by orders from the bigger countries if the politicans refuse to let the citizens revote now that they know what EU really means for the smaller countries.

Legio, I'm sorry, but I really don't see how EU is bad for smaller countries ? Could you give me some examples ?

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Meneldil: Most of it has already been explained by the other posters in this thread. I agree with them, mostly. Why not just let the larger countries have their EU and leave the smaller outside it? It would be better for all parts. The smaller countries could still have the trade deals etc., but without the other parts of the EU experiment.

[Sjakihata]

the 'bad' thing for smaller countries, is that they get no influence in parliament, because of their size. but that's fair, i guess. we (the small countries) actually have more mandates pr captia than the bigger ones.

[King Henry V]

Do you know when Western Germany joined NATO ?
Do you know when France kinda retired from NATO ?

So? The EU was created in 1994 IIRC, long after the fall of communism. Before it was only a free trade area, to which it should return.

[Sjakihata]

The EU was created in 1994 IIRC, long after the fall of communism. Before it was only a free trade area, to which it should return.
It was created in 1993 1. november, when the Maastricht treaty was enacted. Of course the history goes far back under different names but after Maastricht EU be came the official name.

[InsaneApache]

The EU is a corrupt and undemocratic edifice that should be discarded by the people and we should never allow the political elites to ride roughshod over our wishes and freedoms again.

[Brenus]

Yeah, and France has a President who during years used public money to finance his party, in England the wife of the prime minister makes money in fighting the laws used by her husband government, and I probably miss news of the other corruption in other EU and non-EU countries… ~D
Easy to shout corruption, because you are sure to find it, in every country, in every place where power meets money… ~:)
And as undemocratic system, that could be resolve if the electors wish to do it in going to vote or in going in politic, creating parties to built Europe. I don’t know for you, but each time I went to vote for European Election, I hadn’t a gun aimed to my head, nor camera, nor one list to vote for… ~D