Deutsche Farbenlehre

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ok, it's election time (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,374838,00.html) in Germany. And what an odd election it is. Nobody seems to be really happy about it. Or has any clue whatsover about what the result will be. And all this when Germany is in dire need of reform.
The heart of Europe needs to get it's act together again. Like France, it's time for something new in Germany. But hopefully without discarding what's good about the old. I hope the Germans will show us the way into finding a workable balance that keeps our economies compatitive while managing to retain a humane social system.


It is clear that a coalition government will have to be formed. So, I'm curious, which colour combination would you prefer? Which one seems most likely to you?
Farbenlehre (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,375045,00.html) - in German, sorry.


Me, I'm naturally inclined to a Yellow - Red coalition. For reasons stated above, i.e. realistic reform but no ruthless discarding of the Rhineland Model. But the FDP and SPD are probably not going to win enough votes.

I'm not that interested in another Kohlesque Black - Yellow coalition ( CDU, FDP). Been there, done that, and reform not a return to old ways is what Germany needs.

I wouldn't mind an experimental 'stoplight' coalition. Red - Yellow - Green (SPD, FDP, 'Grünen'). Might be worth to give it a try.

I think we will see a Black - Red (CDU, SPD) coalition in the end. Which seems bizarre. Apart from the prospect of a first female chancellor I can't think of a good reason - apart from sheer necessity - why the two largest parties should govern together. In a combination like that, which nobody reallly wants anyway, both will be paying more attention towards gaining the upper hand and frustrating the other than towards actual governing.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I was gonna post that ~D


W00t for...er...
well, all their parties are exactly the same (unless they're outlawed) so W00T FOR ME!

VOTE FOR ME!

[A.Saturnus]

Me, I'm naturally inclined to a Yellow - Red coalition. For reasons stated above, i.e. realistic reform but no ruthless discarding of the Rhineland Model. But the FDP and SPD are probably not going to win enough votes.


Yellow - red? Are you serious? The modern FDP is a joke, apart from promising tax cuts of 5 billion € per citizen, they have no policy whatsoever. They´ve given up content and realism when Westerwelle became their figurehead.

Now, but that election is really messed. At the moment, no one knowes how it will end. Both red/green and black/yellow don´t seem to get enough and all of them are vehemently against a great coalition. So all is open, and it won´t be decided soon because 200,000 Ossies are voting in two weeks :dizzy2:
I voted red. With both votes, because the SPD should be as strong as possible. Merkel is a Bush-sycophant, Stoiber is far too right and Westerwelle is the caricature of a liberal. We have this election because the SPD did reforms that were good and necessary but not well liked by their clientel. hey´ve done the good things of a conservative policy without the bad things. And that´s why they are in danger to lose. That alone is a reason to vote for them.
Being realistic, I hope for a great coalition.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I voted red.

You're a German citizen?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Germany should elect the NPD (If that's the right acronym, i think it is lol), or the Deutsche Volkspartei. Get a good government, for once!

[Bartix]

IG Farben?

[Meneldil]

Emmm, who are the yellow and black ? I'd guess green are the ecologists, red the communists and the other 2 the socialists and christian-democrats. Am I right ? What are the extreme right and Lafontaine's colors ?

[R'as al Ghul]

yellow=FDP Free Democratic Party (Liberals)
black= CDU / CSU Christian Democratic Union (Conservatives)

extreme right would be brown, Lafontainte is also red.
In Berlin the coalition between SPD and PDS is called red-red.
:bow:

[King Henry V]

I'd go for a Yellow-Black coalition, or Black-Green.

@Louis the Fat
The "stoplight" coaltion is what has governed Germany for the last seven years, I don't think it will exactly be an experiment.

[Stefan the Berserker]

I would favor RED-BLACK

Majority for the SPD (my own Party anyway) and the three Minors so weak the CDU must play the Juniorpartner. Having Gerd as Chancellor and the Angie-Pseudo-Thatcher as... nothing.

Small explainations on german political Parties and Colors:

SPD - Socialdemocrathic Party (475.000 Members)

CDU - Christiandemocrathic Union (310.000 Members)

FDP - Indepandant Democrathic Party (170.000 Members / Note: Liberalism as a political Ideology did practically die out in Germany. The Party has never reached a result higher than 8%, so they are mostly irrelevant.)

Die Linke - The Left (80.000 Members / Note: The Left has been the Stalinist SED of the GDR until 1989. However after Harz IV they popped up to 12% and then back to 9%.)

Bündnis90/Die Grünen - Alliance90/Greens (50.000 Members)

Irrelevant Parties:

NPD - Nationaldemocrathic Party of Germany (5.000 Members / Note: Considers itself as NSDAP but is abolished to wear that Name. It is a mere Skinheadclub with no realistical political Options and as you might see far to few people to counter the democrathic Parties.)

DVU - German Peoples Union (10.000 Members / Note: It is also a Facist Party, but it diffrently to the NPD favors the Italian Model of Facism instead of the NSDAP-Variant and abolishes the Membership of Skinheads.)

Die Republikaner - The Republicans (3.000 Members / Note: REP was founded by former CDU-Hardliners inspired by the american Republicans as a Anti-Communist Party. It is extremely rightwing, but not Facist.)

MLPD - The Maoist-Leninist Party of Germany (1.200 Members / Note: The Party was created by former Members of The Left and Chinese Diplomaths, it is a Puppet of the Communist Party of the PR China and mostly an Instrument of Propaganda for Chinese TV)

[A.Saturnus]

Germany should elect the NPD (If that's the right acronym, i think it is lol), or the Deutsche Volkspartei. Get a good government, for once!

Apparently the NPD consists mostly of police informers.


The "stoplight" coaltion is what has governed Germany for the last seven years, I don't think it will exactly be an experiment.

The last seven years has seen a red/green government, not stop-light. But it´s unlikely we will see such. Green and yellow hate each others guts.


You're a German citizen?

Yes.


Majority for the SPD (my own Party anyway) and the three Minors so weak the CDU must play the Juniorpartner. Having Gerd as Chancellor and the Angie-Pseudo-Thatcher as... nothing.

Yep, I´d like that too.

[Meneldil]

(...)


Many thanks Stephan, lots of useful infos here. I'll finally understand the political situation in Germany :bow:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yellow - red? Are you serious? The modern FDP is a joke, apart from promising tax cuts of 5 billion € per citizen, they have no policy whatsoever. They´ve given up content and realism when Westerwelle became their figurehead.For reasons I don't quite understand, every German I speak to seems to loathe the FDP.

I don't have any close experience with the German parties, and especially things like personal style and such are difficult to keep up with from abroad. But I am naturally inclined to them, firstly, because they are a 'sister' party to the UDF in the ADLE (http://alde.europarl.eu.int/content/default.asp?pageID=394&languagecode=FR), the 'Alliance for democrats and Liberals' in Europe.

And secondly, because whenever I read up on German politics, I seem to agree with them most. Allthough, I did this questionnaire on who to vote for in your election. I can't for the life of me find a link now. You had to answer thirthy questions, and the program would then give you a chart showing how close your opinions were to which political party. SPD came first, then the 'Greens' (damn) and the FDP only third. I'm really not supposed to be that left wing...

I have to add that I had to skip a full ten questions because the topic was of no relevance to me or because I simply couldn't understand the question due to my limited command of German.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Germany should elect the NPD (If that's the right acronym, i think it is lol), or the Deutsche Volkspartei. Get a good government, for once!Nah. Germany tried NPD policy before - it was slighty short of a succes...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Apparently the NPD consists mostly of police informers.



The last seven years has seen a red/green government, not stop-light. But it´s unlikely we will see such. Green and yellow hate each others guts.



Yes.



Yep, I´d like that too.
Reds and Greens suck. :balloon2:
Police informers rock! ~:cheers:

[Franconicus]

If you want to learn something about the political programs check http://www.wahlomat.de/bundestagswahl2005/main_app.php?19&servername=server3.wahlomat.de . However, it is German.

Kaiser, stop talking about these foolish fashist parties. Germans may be dumb. but not dumb enough to make a big mistake twice.

Stefan, I do not think that liberal ideas are dead. Every party is liberal either in a personal or economical view. But I agree, FDP is worthless.

[R'as al Ghul]

Liberal Christains running the Government?

Not yet. Neither side has the majority at the moment.
Coalition talks are extremely difficult because neither
SPD+Greens nor CDU+FDP has the absolute majority necessary
to form a government. Neither side wants to speak with the PDS.
This means that the old coalition times are over.

Either the Greens or the FDP have to change their allegiance.
Or, more probable, CDU + SPD form a great coalition.

The funny thing is, CDU has more seats but can't do anything
without SPD. Schröder from SPD argues that the people voted
for him and thus he claims the office of chancellor.

~:cheers:

[English assassin]

CDU and SPD would be an "interesting" result, assuming that it would be anything like a labour-tory coalition here.

Would they actually enter a coalition? If I were the CDU I think I would be more tempted to say we would support an SPD minority government on an issue by issue basis, rather than have a formal coalition. Power without responsibility. I would make it a condition that there was no green involvement, assuming, that is, that German greens have the same absurd politics that British greens do.

I think jumping into coalition with the party you have been attacking looks odd, and it would also mean they had one hand tied behind their back fighting the next election.

How did the CDU manage to lose BTW, I thought the polls were promising victory until quite recently?

Another qu: can you call another election when you want in Germany or do you now have to muddle through with this for four years, or whatever?

[Sjakihata]

I think any government, in any country, can call to election at any given moment.

[Franconicus]

I think jumping into coalition with the party you have been attacking looks odd, and it would also mean they had one hand tied behind their back fighting the next election.

How did the CDU manage to lose BTW, I thought the polls were promising victory until quite recently?

Another qu: can you call another election when you want in Germany or do you now have to muddle through with this for four years, or whatever?
Assassin,
I'll try to answer your questions as good as possible.
I think that every political party has to be able to work with each other. Even if they do not like each other. That is democracy. The good old days with three political parties is over in Germany.

CDU did a very foolish campaign. Their candidate was not loved, they announced raising taxes. But the decisive mistake was to announce an professor from outside the party to become Financial Minister. People always believed that CDU was good with money. And now they had to present someone from outside. Further more there is a difference between the party program and the theory of that man. Nobody could really explain what that meant. So it was easy for the SPD to say that the CDU will cut money for all kinds of workers and is not social. And Schroeder did a great fight. He just refused to accept that he had no chance and finally people started to believe him.
I think if there is no majority in the parliament there will be new elections. But let's wait and see! Almost everything is possible. If a politician says he will never do certain things to get more power - who believes that?

[A.Saturnus]

And secondly, because whenever I read up on German politics, I seem to agree with them most. Allthough, I did this questionnaire on who to vote for in your election. I can't for the life of me find a link now. You had to answer thirthy questions, and the program would then give you a chart showing how close your opinions were to which political party. SPD came first, then the 'Greens' (damn) and the FDP only third. I'm really not supposed to be that left wing...



Ignore the test. I did the same thing and the result was entire nonsense (FDP or DIE LINKE :dizzy2: )

I think the reason why the CDU got so bad a result is that elections and polls are not the same. As in the last election, a lot of people declared they will vote CDU but didn´t.

[A.Saturnus]

BTW, official result (but not final(!)):

CDU/CSU: 35.2
SPD: 34.3
FDP: 9.8
LINKE: 8.7
GREEN: 8.1
rest: 3.9

The Bundestag will have 613 seats, of which will go the parties:
CDU/CSU 225
SPD 222
FDP 61
LINKE 54
GREEN 51

problem: SPD says they don´t accept a coalition without Schröder as Chancellor. Although Merkel has more votes, she has a problem. Since other coalitions don´t seem possible, they have to agree somehow on a compromise.
Maybe one of both will trade in the office of Chancellor for other advantages like more ministers.
If not, this is what´s gonna happen:
The President will nominate one candidate for Chancellor. Then the Bundestag will vote and the candidate needs absolute majority of all members. Failing that, the members can nominate other candidates. Every candidate with more than 25% members nominating him or her will be voted upon. If one of those wins an absolute majority, he is Chancellor.
If this second trial fails again (no candidate gets an absolute majority) the members can simply vote for anyone and the one with the most votes may be declared Chancellor by the President. But if non of them has an absolute majority the President can also, alternatively, ask for new elections.


I think any government, in any country, can call to election at any given moment.

No, in fact not. Schröder could only ask for elections this year because the parliament has spoken out distrust for him. Schröder asked whether he has still the trust of the majority of the Bundestag and failed. After that, the President decided that new elections are in order. After that, the supreme court has decided that he may in fact do that (two members appealed).

[Sjakihata]

why can spd/die linke/die grüne not form a coalition?

[The Witch-King]

why can spd/die linke/die grüne not form a coalition?

The SPD as well as the CDU/CSU have declared they will not negotiate with the Linke party.

[Stefan the Berserker]

There are beeing five diffrent models possible:

The "Große Koalition" -> SPD - CDU - CSU

Jamaica Coalation -> CDU - CSU - FDP - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

Trafficlight Coalation -> SPD - FDP - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

The unholy Coalation -> SPD - Die Linke.PDS - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

Black-Red-Gold -> CDU - CSU - SPD - FDP

1) Currently the only realisical possible formation.

2) Ideologically impossible: The Leftwingradical Greens could never join a Coalation with the right wing, rather they want to commit political sucide. Anyway having a Party that wanted Germany to intervene in the Iraqwar (CDU/CSU) and a Party that wants to legalise Marijuhana beeing in Alliance was mere nonsense.

3) Possible. The FDP is known for its many treasons of Partners.

4) "The Left" is the successor of the SED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Unity_Party_of_Germany), useing the politics of the SPD ( Harz IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept) ) to radicalise the population. The Party is mostly opposed to the Constitution, with having Gregor Gysi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Gysi) as the political Head and proposeing the Movement of 15 Communists into their Parilament Faction.

Because of that, the Faction is boykotted by all others.

5) Black-Red-Gold exclude each other since it was even worse for the Parties to arrange their programmes than in the "Große Koalition".

[A.Saturnus]

why can spd/die linke/die grüne not form a coalition?

Because Schröder´s head would explode.

[Louis VI the Fat]

For reasons I don't quite understand, every German I speak to seems to loathe the FDP.
The FDP is known for its many treasons of Partners. ~:handball:




I would rather call it a commendable ability to adapt to new political realities. ~:)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Kaiser, stop talking about these foolish fashist parties. Germans may be dumb. but not dumb enough to make a big mistake twice.

They're better than Schroeder and his Neo-Stalinist policies.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh grow up. The concept of nazi tanks rolling through the plains of the Ukraine is about as relevant to present day German politics as shooting Indians is for American politics.

[LeftEyeNine]

Kick us out Merkel, stop us or we will plunder Germany. ~D

[A.Saturnus]

They're better than Schroeder and his Neo-Stalinist policies.

I´m glad to inform you that the election was a disaster for the NPD ~:)

[GoreBag]

Oh grow up. The concept of nazi tanks rolling through the plains of the Ukraine is about as relevant to present day German politics as shooting Indians is for American politics.

Well, the aboriginals aren't having such a great time with the Bush administration right now...

[Voigtkampf]

Schröder could only ask for elections this year because the parliament has spoken out distrust for him. Schröder asked whether he has still the trust of the majority of the Bundestag and failed. After that, the President decided that new elections are in order. After that, the supreme court has decided that he may in fact do that (two members appealed).

Damn. I bet you didn’t even flinch while writing this down. ~:)

I believe all of the SPD voters have deserved Schroeder. If I were on Merkel’s place, I would have undermined that pathetic cheap-shot play of Schroeders in Bundestag and would have voted in favor of the Genosse-der-Bosse. After two or three years more of his rule, the Germans would welcome anyone else for their kanzler. Or a king or a dictator, for that matter. Putin would appear like Gandhi to them.

I’m only sorry for all those Germans that had to endure the witty weasel over the last seven years and had nothing to do with him coming into office, by either voting for others or not voting at all.

[A.Saturnus]

I believe all of the SPD voters have deserved Schroeder. If I were on Merkel’s place, I would have undermined that pathetic cheap-shot play of Schroeders in Bundestag and would have voted in favor of the Genosse-der-Bosse. After two or three years more of his rule, the Germans would welcome anyone else for their kanzler. Or a king or a dictator, for that matter. Putin would appear like Gandhi to them.


Well, Merkel obviously was certain to win the election now. Maybe the Germans would prefer Putin over Schröder, but it seems, not Merkel ~D

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Damn. I bet you didn’t even flinch while writing this down. ~:)

I believe all of the SPD voters have deserved Schroeder. If I were on Merkel’s place, I would have undermined that pathetic cheap-shot play of Schroeders in Bundestag and would have voted in favor of the Genosse-der-Bosse. After two or three years more of his rule, the Germans would welcome anyone else for their kanzler. Or a king or a dictator, for that matter. Putin would appear like Gandhi to them.

I’m only sorry for all those Germans that had to endure the witty weasel over the last seven years and had nothing to do with him coming into office, by either voting for others or not voting at all.
Elect an idiot and you must live with him. It just saddens me that Germany must elect such an idiot.

You guys call Bush stupid, at least we don't pay for kids to go to collage until their 31 ~:cheers:

And Putin's the man, don't insult Putin. He's like, tough. Somthing most world leaders aren't. That guys got nuts of steel to do some of the things he's done. ~D

[Voigtkampf]

Well, Merkel obviously was certain to win the election now. Maybe the Germans would prefer Putin over Schröder, but it seems, not Merkel ~D

Hence, I presume, Merkel’s ineloquence absolves Schroeder from his own?

I, for one, do not support that position, because excrement tastes like excrement no matter whose it is. Then again, IMDHO. ~D

[A.Saturnus]

Hence, I presume, Merkel’s ineloquence absolves Schroeder from his own?

I, for one, do not support that position, because excrement tastes like excrement no matter whose it is. Then again, IMDHO. ~D

I´m absolving nothing. But it seems that Merkel isn´t such a great politician as you after all. And maybe the Germans have other ressentiments against her than her ineloquence.

[Sjakihata]

I just heard, though, that she was re-elected as chair(wo)man for her party, with 98% voting for her to continue. Seems fresh winds are blowing her sails. can she use it for anything, though?

[A.Saturnus]

I just heard, though, that she was re-elected as chair(wo)man for her party, with 98% voting for her to continue. Seems fresh winds are blowing her sails. can she use it for anything, though?

Yes, the can keep it a precious memory should her party dump her in a not so far future.

[Sjakihata]

This thread is confusing. Can someone explain to an American who is ignorant of European politics just what's happening? Is Schroeder out of office or some such?

The complexity of multi party democracies. No one knows really.

The two most likely situations:

1. Schröeder concedes and hands the scene to Merkel
2. A big coalition is formed

at least, that's what the analysists are saying in denmark

[A.Saturnus]

However, there are alternatives. If there´s a great coalition and no one wants to step back from their claim to power, one of these options could be applied:

First option: double chancellor.
Both Merkel and Schröder could rule as chancellor. If necessary, they could marry. Then the President would say "Hereby I declare you Mister and Misses Chancellor".

Second option: self-made chancellor.
If that seems to silly to the President he could nominate himself for Chancellor. If elected that would make for a slimmer state. Alternativly he could nominate the supreme court. After all, most laws must be decided by them anyway. Maybe he could even nominate the Constitution itself, but I guess it couldn´t swear the oath.

Third and best option: neutral chancellor.
A neutral politician could be chancellor. Does he need to be Member of Parliament? SPD and Union could agree on an independet person without party affiliation. Of course, the problem would be to find someone both can agree on. It needs to be someone who has authority and respect in all Germany and can lead. There´s only someone who fulfills that:

Franz Beckenbauer

Of course, he wouldn´t bear the title chancellor. He would be Kaiser, ruler of a great coalition for life!!

[Voigtkampf]

I´m absolving nothing. But it seems that Merkel isn´t such a great politician as you after all. And maybe the Germans have other ressentiments against her than her ineloquence.

I agree, Merkel will never be as good as politician as me. ~D Or you, for that matter. ~;)

I do not consider Merkel to be a person of either ability or format, and I feel exactly the same about Schroeder. The latter, however, has been gifted with demagogical skills, opportunistic nature that enables him to pull any move that will grant him another little piece of power. He is an eel in motion, slippery at all times, without any knowledge of how to run Germany (a feature he shares with the largest part of SPD as well as the Greenies) but with every knowledge how to suck up at workers class one day and at the business bosses the very next day, telling them all what they want to hear and fulfilling his promises nowhere.

Poor Merkel. She is neither beautiful, nor able to any degree worth mentioning, she is a childless protestant woman that lived in the shadows of greater politicians for a long time without any oratory skills whatsoever. But unlike that charade of a kanzler, she has never displayed that hypocrisy he seems to be having in unlimited supply.

[Franconicus]

However, there are alternatives. If there´s a great coalition and no one wants to step back from their claim to power, one of these options could be applied:

First option: double chancellor.
Both Merkel and Schröder could rule as chancellor. If necessary, they could marry. Then the President would say "Hereby I declare you Mister and Misses Chancellor".

Second option: self-made chancellor.
If that seems to silly to the President he could nominate himself for Chancellor. If elected that would make for a slimmer state. Alternativly he could nominate the supreme court. After all, most laws must be decided by them anyway. Maybe he could even nominate the Constitution itself, but I guess it couldn´t swear the oath.

Third and best option: neutral chancellor.
A neutral politician could be chancellor. Does he need to be Member of Parliament? SPD and Union could agree on an independet person without party affiliation. Of course, the problem would be to find someone both can agree on. It needs to be someone who has authority and respect in all Germany and can lead. There´s only someone who fulfills that:

Franz Beckenbauer

Of course, he wouldn´t bear the title chancellor. He would be Kaiser, ruler of a great coalition for life!!
Right! The Bomber would be foreign minister, Katsche Schwarzenbeck would be responsible for defense and Uli Höneß would do economics. ~D

[A.Saturnus]

I agree, Merkel will never be as good as politician as me. ~D Or you, for that matter. ~;)

I do not consider Merkel to be a person of either ability or format, and I feel exactly the same about Schroeder. The latter, however, has been gifted with demagogical skills, opportunistic nature that enables him to pull any move that will grant him another little piece of power. He is an eel in motion, slippery at all times, without any knowledge of how to run Germany (a feature he shares with the largest part of SPD as well as the Greenies) but with every knowledge how to suck up at workers class one day and at the business bosses the very next day, telling them all what they want to hear and fulfilling his promises nowhere.

Poor Merkel. She is neither beautiful, nor able to any degree worth mentioning, she is a childless protestant woman that lived in the shadows of greater politicians for a long time without any oratory skills whatsoever. But unlike that charade of a kanzler, she has never displayed that hypocrisy he seems to be having in unlimited supply.

No doubt, Schröder is a powermonger and Merkel isn´t. But I think the conservatives should accept that they lost because the German voter didn´t want Union/FDP to rule the land. As it seems, the German voter didn´t want anyone to rule the land ~D

[Louis VI the Fat]

And Toni Schumacher can become ambassador to France. ~;)


And Schröder may be a ruthless, arse-kissing powermongerer indeed, but he get's my vote for chancellor. Twice he's beaten (well, I would consider this last election a victory for the SPD) the CDU/CSU now coming from way behind in the polls. He has got what it takes to lead. He's a natural born winner.

Unlike Merkel. She got totally pöwnd by him in the last debate.

[Voigtkampf]

No doubt, Schröder is a powermonger and Merkel isn´t. But I think the conservatives should accept that they lost because the German voter didn´t want Union/FDP to rule the land. As it seems, the German voter didn´t want anyone to rule the land ~D

The reasons for it are much simpler. The Union lost because of the two reasons; one, Schroeder played his charade because he knew he was going down, and this was a pure act of damage control, and two, Merkel is no format to challenge even the (self)torpedoed kanzler Gerd. Even having given up the leadership of his party, that man still clings to whatever power he can get like a leech.

If you analyze the progress the Union has been making in the last few years objectively, you would be compelled to admit that SPD has been losing in the parts of Germany where they have had the undisputed rule for decades. Hence, the only logical conclusion is the one as stated above. This is not the failure of the Union, but of Merkel. And as for Schroeder… The amount of unquestionable, blind, non-distinguishing devotion required in someone to still support Gerd is something I simply cannot comprehend.


And Schröder may be a ruthless, arse-kissing powermongerer indeed, but he get's my vote for chancellor.

Not ruthless. Try slimy. Try hypocritical. Arse-kissing is suitable.


He has got what it takes to lead. He's a natural born winner.

As the red numbers in Germany’s state accounting continue soaring upward, just like the unemployment numbers are hitting the record high ever since the end of the WW2, and the most powerful economy in Europe is slipping to a second-rate middle-Europe factor, you should repeat that mantra to yourself over and over. And draw satisfaction that there was no suitable opponent to knock out that clown with the talent for driving Germany even deeper into state of bankruptcy. Other than being French, I don’t know how a reasonable person can find this course of action satisfactory. ~D

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There are beeing five diffrent models possible:

The "Große Koalition" -> SPD - CDU - CSU

Jamaica Coalation -> CDU - CSU - FDP - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

Trafficlight Coalation -> SPD - FDP - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

The unholy Coalation -> SPD - Die Linke.PDS - Bündnis90/Die Grünen

Black-Red-Gold -> CDU - CSU - SPD - FDP

1) Currently the only realisical possible formation.

2) Ideologically impossible: The Leftwingradical Greens could never join a Coalation with the right wing, rather they want to commit political sucide. Anyway having a Party that wanted Germany to intervene in the Iraqwar (CDU/CSU) and a Party that wants to legalise Marijuhana beeing in Alliance was mere nonsense.

3) Possible. The FDP is known for its many treasons of Partners.

4) "The Left" is the successor of the SED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Unity_Party_of_Germany), useing the politics of the SPD ( Harz IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept) ) to radicalise the population. The Party is mostly opposed to the Constitution, with having Gregor Gysi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Gysi) as the political Head and proposeing the Movement of 15 Communists into their Parilament Faction.

Because of that, the Faction is boykotted by all others.

5) Black-Red-Gold exclude each other since it was even worse for the Parties to arrange their programmes than in the "Große Koalition".

If you folks acquire any more political parties, you'll start resembling the Knesset.

Seamus

[Louis VI the Fat]

As the red numbers in Germany’s state accounting continue soaring upward, just like the unemployment numbers are hitting the record high ever since the end of the WW2, and the most powerful economy in Europe is slipping to a second-rate middle-Europe factor, you should repeat that mantra to yourself over and over. And draw satisfaction that there was no suitable opponent to knock out that clown with the talent for driving Germany even deeper into state of bankruptcy. Other than being French, I don’t know how a reasonable person can find this course of action satisfactory. ~DHe does have two major difficulties to overcome.

Firstly, the unification. Taking over five bankrupt Länder was a bit costly.

And secondly, Germany's economy, like France, was based on industry. And like France, the rise of Asia has annihilated a large portion of it. The EU economies that are doing well at the moment are based on services. France and Germany are in trouble, especially with regards to employment. Both need to reform, yet both want to cling on to the social rights that were build to protect our workers. Hence the more than usual interest in what is happening on your side of the Rhine. If you can reform, we can follow your example. If you can't, then damnit, we're in trouble. We've got some elections down the road too in two years time.

And no, a Germany in recession is the last thing we need now. We need Germany to get back on it's feet again. You are supposed to be the engine of the EU-economy after all.

[Stefan the Berserker]

If you folks acquire any more political parties, you'll start resembling the Knesset.

Seamus

Or the Weimar Republic... :help:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Or the Weimar Republic... :help:

My line was just a jest. Your response, though funny, hints at some concern that a situation alike to the chaos of the Weimar is possible -- implying that the results generated (NSDAP ascendency) are replicable. Is this a real concern?

Seamus

[A.Saturnus]

The reasons for it are much simpler. The Union lost because of the two reasons; one, Schroeder played his charade because he knew he was going down, and this was a pure act of damage control, and two, Merkel is no format to challenge even the (self)torpedoed kanzler Gerd. Even having given up the leadership of his party, that man still clings to whatever power he can get like a leech.

If you analyze the progress the Union has been making in the last few years objectively, you would be compelled to admit that SPD has been losing in the parts of Germany where they have had the undisputed rule for decades. Hence, the only logical conclusion is the one as stated above. This is not the failure of the Union, but of Merkel. And as for Schroeder… The amount of unquestionable, blind, non-distinguishing devotion required in someone to still support Gerd is something I simply cannot comprehend.


Few things in politics are really simple. They only look simple. Schröder´s government wasn´t going down because of any mess-ups but because the necessary reforms it did weren´t liked by its clientel (and parts of the party). The losing of Länder was going on since their rise 1998 and it is quite normal. The ruling party usually declines in the Länder. If Union had won this election, you would have seen numbers of SPD voters going up pretty quick.


As the red numbers in Germany’s state accounting continue soaring upward, just like the unemployment numbers are hitting the record high ever since the end of the WW2, and the most powerful economy in Europe is slipping to a second-rate middle-Europe factor, you should repeat that mantra to yourself over and over. And draw satisfaction that there was no suitable opponent to knock out that clown with the talent for driving Germany even deeper into state of bankruptcy. Other than being French, I don’t know how a reasonable person can find this course of action satisfactory.

Alas, the conservaties show little motivation to address the real causes of our economical problems.

[Stefan the Berserker]

My line was just a jest. Your response, though funny, hints at some concern that a situation alike to the chaos of the Weimar is possible -- implying that the results generated (NSDAP ascendency) are replicable. Is this a real concern?

Seamus

The Left is already seated with 57 Members in the Bundestag. 11 of these are not "Socialists", they belong to the Kommunistische Plattform (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommunistische_Plattform) which is the radical wing of the party which favors the Stalinism of the GDR's fashion. Simply note that Formula:

11 x https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/e/e7/Kpf_logo.png/180px-Kpf_logo.png + http://www.beitritt.de/grafik/Gysi.gif = SED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Unity_Party_of_Germany) Bundestagsfraktion

We do now have Enemies of the Constitution in the Parilament. This Situation has never been since the Days of the Weimar Republic.

The Thing is that Way, the "Grosse Koalition" between the SPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPD) and CDU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDU) will f*ck up the People who normally vote for SPD so much the Power of the Left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linkspartei.) will grow even more. It will lead to a Situation, unlike in the Weimar Republic, where the SPD is forced to cooperate either with the radical Leftwing or with the conservatives.

Since Germany is no Isle and influenced by the Rest of the World, I assume the development of the CDU into Neo-Conservativism caused by Dubya's Foreignpolicy, domestic Anti-"The Left" politics and personal favor of Angela Merkel. The Socialdemocraths could never cooperate with Neo-Conservativism, because it was treason of our ideals.

However any cooperation of the moderate SPD with the radical Leftwing would instead radicalise the conservative part of the Population. (Remember that the Left formed the Gouverment of the GDR)

Having two extremely hostile camps in the Result:

Socialdemocraths / Socialists / Communists / Greens

Neo-Conservatives / Conservatives / Liberals

Small Weimar. Great Job. :embarassed:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yes, Stefan. That's why you need a moderate, reasonable party - like, say, the FDP - in the heart of your political constellation. ~;)

It allows for coalitions to gravitate towards the centre, instead of to the outer extremes. You may not like the idea of the FDP having more power in this fashion than she should have based on her size - complete with all that shifting of allegiances and randsoming of far larger parties. But the alternative is more unattractive still.

[Voigtkampf]

He does have two major difficulties to overcome.

Firstly, the unification. Taking over five bankrupt Länder was a bit costly.

Ah, yes, that dead horse… How long was that? Given chance, SPD will blame the reunification for all their misconduct for another two or three decades… They failed to once absolve the conservatives in the aftermath of reunification and say “ok, we are in a mess, but its only because the reunification process, its not the conservative’s fault”, but nothing seems to stop the left from making the reunification their main scapegoat ad infinituum.


And secondly, Germany's economy, like France, was based on industry. And like France, the rise of Asia has annihilated a large portion of it. The EU economies that are doing well at the moment are based on services.

For more than just that reason, the European economies are coming through a significantly heavy phase. But Germany’s downfall, compared to other countries in percentage, is no where symmetrical. To put it down simple, Germany had to deal with both unfavorable conditions on the world market as well as exceptionally incapable domestic government.


Few things in politics are really simple. They only look simple.

Thank you for this valuable lesson.


Schröder´s government wasn´t going down because of any mess-ups but because the necessary reforms it did weren´t liked by its clientel (and parts of the party).

If your opposition dislikes your program, fine, you are prepared for that. But when your “clientele” and “parts of the party” go openly against you and your plan… Then you are either a misunderstood genius or a plain charlatan.


The losing of Länder was going on since their rise 1998 and it is quite normal. The ruling party usually declines in the Länder. If Union had won this election, you would have seen numbers of SPD voters going up pretty quick.

Absolutely true. You have, however, failed to mention that the loss of trust from the voters invested into SPD has been one of the epical proportions. When you lose support from that many voters that fast and also lose entire regions where you have regularly won elections for decades, then you should realize that something you do is terribly wrong.

Unless you are a misunderstood genius the keeps pursuing his course, or a plain, stupid charlatan.

[A.Saturnus]

If your opposition dislikes your program, fine, you are prepared for that. But when your “clientele” and “parts of the party” go openly against you and your plan… Then you are either a misunderstood genius or a plain charlatan.


If Schröder is either than Merkel must be that too. After all that program in question was Hartz IV. Which was agreed upon by the union. The problem was that unfortunately, big parts of the left reject necessary reforms. You are in fact blaming Schröder for an unpopulistic policy.
It is strange that you chastise him so much for the economy when in fact the economical policy of the SPD and that of the Union differ only in nuances.


Absolutely true. You have, however, failed to mention that the loss of trust from the voters invested into SPD has been one of the epical proportions. When you lose support from that many voters that fast and also lose entire regions where you have regularly won elections for decades, then you should realize that something you do is terribly wrong.

How are epical proportions defined?
1990 the SPD was leading faction in 8 of 16 Länder.
1998 11 of 16.
1999 10/16.
2000 9/16.
2001 9/16.
2002 8/16.
2003 7/16.
2004 7/16.
2005 5/16.

I recognize a sort of pendulum in that.
The only thing drastic I can see is that they lost two Länder in one year: Schleswig-Holstein (by the voting of 1 person!!) and Nordrhein-Westfalen. This is after all what brought Schröder to call for re-elections.
It is true that the SPD had recently in some Länder very low results. These voters went mostly over to PDS. Would it be corrcet then, by your reasoning, that something the PDS did was terribly right?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ah, yes, that dead horse… How long was that? Given chance, SPD will blame the reunification for all their misconduct for another two or three decades… They failed to once absolve the conservatives in the aftermath of reunification and say “ok, we are in a mess, but its only because the reunification process, its not the conservative’s fault”, but nothing seems to stop the left from making the reunification their main scapegoat ad infinituumSorry, reunification indeed. Just sloppyness on my part, no political statement intended.

But a beating a dead horse? I don't think so. I'd rather call it one of the most pressing problems of Germany.


According to the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW), economic aid for the eastern part of Germany is increasingly dragging down the economic cycle in western Germany. Experts warn of a growing risk that "development in the new federal states" could trigger a "self-fuelling recession."

It was only last year that a team of government consultants, headed by former Hamburg Mayor Klaus von Dohnanyi and the former head of the East German state bank and subsequent managing director of Deutsche Bank's Berlin office, Edgar Most, presented Manfred Stolpe (SPD), the cabinet minister charged with eastern reconstruction, with a 29-page report ("Recommendations for a Change in Direction for Development East") outlining the full scope of the problem. Experts complain that:


only about 60 percent of eastern Germans capable of gainful employment are in fact employed. The average unemployment rate in the region tops 18 percent. According to the Institute for Economic Research in Halle, eastern Germany is short of about 2 million jobs;


migration away from the East continues unabated, especially among young people. According to the Dohnanyi report, "eastern Germany is threatened by a dramatic aging of the population and a dangerous loss of especially well-trained workers and its creative force";


the economy in the new German states has been growing more slowly than in the West for years. The catch-up process has stalled, leading to an ever-widening gap between East and West;


the East lacks medium-sized businesses when compared with the western standard. Companies in the East are generally too small and short on capital;


the costs of reunification consume four percent of the gross domestic product annually. But because economic growth falls short of this figure, aid to the East is eroding the West's economic base;


billions in aid and subsidization policies are no longer effective. Without a "change in course," according to the report, the "need for West-East transfers of funds can even be expected to increase in the future."Der Spiegel, september 2005 (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,373639,00.html) And the above doesn't even adress the social problems and alienation of a large part of the East.

In figures:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,515451,00.gif

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Doesn't that mean that Eastern Germany has seen a econ growth rate BELOW the level of inflation for a decade? I can't think of a U.S. region that has been hammered that bad for that long since the 30's. Talk about your classic "ripe for political turmoil" scenario....

Seamus

[A.Saturnus]

The lates news is that, should it come to a third voting for chancellor, the LINKE may vote for Schröder. This could mean that, if no consensus is found between Union and SPD, Schröder might have a better chance to be elected than Merkel.
On the other hand, Schröder seems less adament in his claim for the office now.