Egyptians+horse archers

[p_nutter]

I've been playing the Egyptians. I've had a hard time getting used to the weird units in their army, which seem a lot harder to get to grips with than the "charge first, ask questions later"-type catholic units.

Some custom battles have convinced me that horse archers will help. But...

The game says Mamluk horse archers need bowyers' guild and horse breeders' guild. Translation: I need to build 20% improved farmland, horse farmer, horse breeder, horse breeders' guild, town guard, bowyer, bowyer's workshop, and bowyers' guild. Oh, yes, and to build all that I need a fort, keep and a castle first! That will take 6600 florins and 52 years to build. With one more year to train, and starting in 1087, my first horse archers will appear in the year 1140. ~:handball:
That's assuming none of those buildings stall due to lack of money (which they already have done. Stupid uncapturable jedi Byzantine princes...)

There may be a better way...
Situation in 1110:

https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1808/11108sf.jpg

It's faster to grab Constantinople with my crazy camels+spears+archers army and build that up to horse archers... :dizzy2: This is nuts. Compare this with the Turks, who practically start with horse archers... it didn't help them much though ~D

[Roark]

Just go for Turcopoles in Antioch or something instead...

I personally find that Faris and Mamluks are worth the build time for the Egyptians.

Apart from Sipahis of the Porte, the Turkish horse archers are totally gutless in charge & melee.

[Grey_Fox]

Turcoman HA's are great horse archers, and do a good job at flanking.

[PFJ_bejazuz]

Faris are the hidden gem

up at V3 in a MP game they can swing it big time

[Ludens]

How to use Horse Achers (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33313) (Shameless self-promotion ~:rolleyes: )

Turcomen and Turcopoles are only available to the Turks and the Catholics respectively. Egypt has only two horse archers: Mamluk HA and Faris. Faris require a horse breeder, Bowyer's workshop and a Swordsmith's workshop (two keep-level and one castle-level buildings), while a Mamluk HA require Bowyer's guild and Horsebreeders Guild (two castle-level buildings), making them both rather hard to build. There is no real solution to your problem, other than hiring whatever HA's you might find in your inns.

Neither Faris nor Mamluk Horse Archers are very good, in my opinion. They have decent melee, but nothing outstanding and they are slow as horse archers go. I prefer Mamluks because of the valour bonus in the Sinai. That said, in the hands of a capable player who is not afraid to micro-manage, they can wreak havoc on the hapless A.I.

[Roark]

Turcoman HA's are great horse archers, and do a good job at flanking.

They're fast... but that's about it IMHO. They are marginally better than base HAs. Morale is still shocking...

At least you can send Faris in to fight straight after a volley of arrows. Good for breaking your opponent's morale, if you can time it correctly.

[bretwalda]

They're fast... but that's about it IMHO. They are marginally better than base HAs. Morale is still shocking...

At least you can send Faris in to fight straight after a volley of arrows. Good for breaking your opponent's morale, if you can time it correctly.

Turcoman Horses are not for "sending them straight to the melee" except in really desperate situation. Rather pick off isolated troops, run them around, tire them, and when they break from exhaustion and arrow fire run them down. Excelently run down e.g. isolated archers. They can also nicely flank a pinned enemy.

My favourite tactics to pick off the enemy archers (isolate and run down...). When there are no archers in the enemy army usually they are MINE! (Except maybe the Byz who crash thru the hail of arrows giving a hard time with their hardcore units...)

When playing the Turks my priority is to build up Tripoli to produce v2 and decent morale Turcoman Horses. Now those horsies rock! :evilgrin:

[p_nutter]

Thanks for the advice, guys. There's one more way to get horse archers (although it's not exactly reliable): Jihad! They often contain Mamluk HAs for some reason.

I finally got the Sinai built up for Mamluk HAs in 1146. I'm quite happy with them - their morale is good enough to run round the back of the enemy without routing, and they are sort of OK in melee - i.e. good enough to kill archers.

Now I've got the castle-level horse archers, it's time to think about the Kwarazmiam cavalry: citadel-level knights... :charge:

[AntiochusIII]

Now I've got the castle-level horse archers, it's time to think about the Kwarazmiam cavalry: citadel-level knights... :charge:Couldn't the Egyptians train Armenian Heavy Cavalry? If yes, they'd do a better cavalry job like maneuvering, flanking, and charging without getting exhausted with the extra valour from Armenia and the lighter weight/upkeep.

[EatYerGreens]

Couldn't the Egyptians train Armenian Heavy Cavalry? If yes, they'd do a better cavalry job like maneuvering, flanking, and charging without getting exhausted with the extra valour from Armenia and the lighter weight/upkeep.

I think the idea of the Kwarazmiam's is that they are defensive cavalry, so the slower speed doesn't matter so much. What's important is is to be able to support the infantry line while under missile fire and that's where the armouring comes in. They should stand up well against Catholic knights units.

Not sure if the same could be said of the Armenian heavies but the reduced armour and higher speed means you'll be using these in armies you attack with.

So, each has its own role and according to where you wish to defend and where you wish to attack, that will determine where they get deployed as well as how they'll be used.

AHC Charge 8 Attk 3 Def 4$ Armour 5$ Morale 4 @v0 Cost 300/40 men
AHC Charge 8 Attk 4 Def 5$ Armour 5$ Morale 6 @v1 Cost 300/40
KwC Charge 6 Attk 3 Def 5 Armour 7 Morale 4 @v0 Cost 375/40
HRGK Charge 8 Attk 3 Def 6$ Armour 6$ Morale 6 @v0 Cost 350/20

CK Charge 8 Attk 5 Def 5$ Armour 7.5$ Morale 8 @v0 Cost 675/40
KoS " " " " " " "
KH " " " " " " "
KT Charge 4 " " " " 600/40

[Roark]

I use Kharazmiams as a pinning unit for uber-heavies like Lancers. They can take a savage beating without complaint, whilst armour-piercers like Mamluk Cavalry flank the Lancers.

I also use Kwarazmiams to charge spearwalls with no problems at all (in my all-cavalry armies). This is blasphemy amongst most players, but I charge them into the joins in a wedge formation with good success.

[AntiochusIII]

Ah, I see your point now. Thanks.

So it's a similar combination of the Byzantine Katanks+Allagion units. That makes sense. Pin, and flank. With mounted maneuverability and heavy charge for the pinners.

Though I am thoroughly a Catholic player and normally make a spear (or bill...or italian...or halb) + ranged (archers...longbows...crossbows...arbs) battleline to fight most of my battles. With, of course, some flanking knights and lighter cavalry. So I don't normally use cavalry to pin, except if it's my Jedi Katank. ~;)

[Roark]

Yeah, exactly. With Kwarazmiams, you can charge them to wherever you want your frontline to be. So you can essentially "sculpt" a frontline, by intercepting your opponent's chargers and not having to worry about most missile fire whilst the rest of your troops get busy catching up, plugging the gaps and flanking.

They have excellent morale from memory, but I may have a distorted perception, due to the fact that I build Ribat morale boosters for my Saracen Infantry ASAP (because Saracens also require the spear line of buildings obviously...)

[antisocialmunky]

I know they're similiar to Katanks so I would probably use them as impact cavalry to send them to impact right before my infantry hit to waste the enemy's charge in the crucial areas.

[Roark]

The only really annoying thing about using Kwarazmiams as shock troops is that they use a spear instead of a lance...

Katank Jr...