Your Terrorist, My Freedom Fighter

[LeftEyeNine]

TV5, the French channel, broadcasted a program themed 24-hours Istanbul. Everything was fine until they showed up a map of Turkey of which the eastern part was called Kurdistan. That has been appealed officially by the minister of culture and tourism - Atilla Koc yesterday.

The news source : http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2005/09/19/son/sondun21.html

The map :

https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7279/sondun213lb.jpg

I've just heard that from a friend of mine whose brother served his military obligation as a NATO troop in Belgium.
The question leads to Belgium, because that friend told that the map had shown acceptance in Belgium as well. What is the truth ?

We may also lead to another question from this point, regardless that claim above is true or not, is it something rational calling the Islamic bombers as the terrorists (which is true to the bone) while calling another one's terrorists as the "rebels" or "freedom fighters" ?

Belgium, Netherlands and until recently Germany was happy with PKK's freedom fighters' offices. PKK's TV channel can freely broadcast in some Scandinavian countries.

May I be informed from the first hand please ? Turkey tries to obey and improve the way EU dictates. How about terrorists killed over 30.000 Turks ?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

you should petition Turkey's media outlets to only show maps of France that have the Basque country (the French part thereof), Corsica, Brittany, Alsace etc. all clearly marked: I'm sure that would wind up the people who put that map of Turkey up.

[Brenus]

“you should petition Turkey's media outlets to only show maps of France that have the Basque country (the French part thereof), Corsica, Brittany, Alsace etc. all clearly marked: I'm sure that would wind up the people who put that map of Turkey up”. No need for petition, just buy a book of geography for 6th or 5th grade, and you will have all regions and departments for the same price… ~:) Each region has its own representative and regional assembly, so no problem. ~:)

[BDC]

Or you could put Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales (and maybe Cornwall) on a map of the UK... Wait they are on there as well.

And the Northern Irish have a lot of terrorists amongst their number.

[Don Corleone]

You're missing the point guys. Yes, Wales and Corsica show up on a map. But not as autonomous nations. His map is showing political boundaries, and so, by showing Kurdistan, implying that it's an autonomous nation. It'd be more akin to showing the CSA on a map of the US.

I don't know what to tell you Left Eye, but I understand you being upset.

[Adrian II]

Belgium, Netherlands and until recently Germany was happy with PKK's freedom fighters' offices.Not happy; we just tolerated their presence in the hope that overt political action would help to take their minds off other activities. Meanwhile, Dutch secret service was passing on names of Kurdish activists to their Turkish counterparts and vice versa in order to keep an eye on them. Last year fifteen PKK guerillas were arrested in The Netherlands, a secret training camp was closed, their stuff confiscated. The PKK as such is not suppresed though. Nor are the Grey Wolves and other fascist or chauvinist Turkish groups. But their activities are closely monitored.

[LeftEyeNine]

Or you could put Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales (and maybe Cornwall) on a map of the UK... Wait they are on there as well.

And the Northern Irish have a lot of terrorists amongst their number.

Wrong lane.. Kurdistan has no officiality, neither in Iraq, Syria nor in Turkey.. It's the other's wishes or views, that intrude Turkey's physical structure. This is not about defending another's rights (that is debateable as well)

[Crazed Rabbit]

There was a terrorist training camp in Belgium?

Crazed Rabbit

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

You may get the regional divisions but you do not get the Basque part of the French SW defined as a seperate Basque entity (or attached to the rest of the Basque country) and you do not have a united Brittany on the maps (you have an area called Brittany and then you have the rest of Brittany inside Loire Atlantique).

So, if they showed those borders, not those of official departments etc. then I think you'd annoy some French people (French people I lived with were not happy when a Breton drew the proper borders of Brittany on a map of France in the kitchen and a Basque did the same with the Basque country: it was their map and the other French people took offense, maybe I just lived with very nationalist French people).

As for the U.K. the border with Scotland and Wales has been pretty much fixed since the 16th century (except for in a couple of spots) and that of Cornwall since the 9th or 10th century. Scotland and Wales both have devolved government that has jurisdiction over those borders.
If you wanted to annoy people you could put the whole of Ireland as being part of the U.K. or Northern Ireland as part of the (united) republic of Ireland

[Adrian II]

There was a terrorist training camp in Belgium?

Crazed RabbitMore or less, yes; it was in the southern Dutch province of Brabant. That is close to Belgium and everybody knows it is all beer, chips and AK47's down there. ~;)

[A.Saturnus]

You're missing the point guys. Yes, Wales and Corsica show up on a map. But not as autonomous nations. His map is showing political boundaries, and so, by showing Kurdistan, implying that it's an autonomous nation. It'd be more akin to showing the CSA on a map of the US.

I don't know what to tell you Left Eye, but I understand you being upset.

I don´t think that´s the case. The map rather looks like Kurdistan is superimposed over Turkey, Iraq and Iran, to show where it would be.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think it is just a etnographic map. There to show which area's of the Middle East are inhabited mainly by Kurdes. The proper analogy would be a map of France showing the area of Basque inhabitance - we don't deny their existense.

BTW, that is a German map. ~:confused:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I think it's just a map showing where the Kurdish population is concentrated rather than where a possible future state of Kurdistan would be. However, calling it Kurdistan may suggest that I'm wrong.

Louis: you posted the same thing just before me. I guess we're even now.

[LeftEyeNine]

The PKK as such is not suppresed though. Nor are the Grey Wolves and other fascist or chauvinist Turkish groups. But their activities are closely monitored.

If you ignore devil seeds to grow regarding the democratic rights, you have to deal with the long-grown roots then. Maybe it was all about "yes they have a right" stuff but I don't think that Benelux Brothers were not warned about the fascist Kurdish activity - which is far from being democratic in any means.

And yes, they have to care about Ulkucu (translation : the Idealists ) fraction based chauvinists as they easily tend to grow up in groups, gangs and mafiatic actions.

Grey Wolf (= Bozkurt) is the core of the Turkish mythology, the wolf that led the trapped Turks out of the mountains, so that they earned their freedom. The colour blue and the grey wolf is the basical Turkish symbols. I'd like to inform you that Ulkucu (with plural suffix : Ulkuculer) is a more accurate definition for those kind of chauvinist groups.

[Brenus]

“But not as autonomous nations” The last time France ask Corsica if she wants to be independent, the majority of the people said no. ~:)
“It's the other's wishes or views”: Ask the Kurds what they want because the last time I went in Turkey, just listen Kurdish music was a crime… ~D
“French people”: So, what is your definition of French people if they are not Basques, Alsatians, Bourguignon, Britain, Bressan, Corsican, Savoyards etc… ~:confused:
“maybe I just lived with very nationalist French people”, probably and good in geography, because I don’t know many people in France who could draw a map of regions, whatever the borders (regional) they choose to pick. ~:)

[LeftEyeNine]

I think it is just a etnographic map. There to show which area's of the Middle East are inhabited mainly by Kurdes. The proper analogy would be a map of France showing the area of Basque inhabitance - we don't deny their existense.

BTW, that is a German map. ~:confused:

Kurdistan means "The Country of Kurds". Kurd : The ethnicity + -istan : The country, land etc. (Used for describing a country though. Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.) So this decays the claim calling that concentration of the Kurds. This is not about the ethnicity concentration stuff. You notice the Kurdistan part drawn over the Turkish borders. If it was about showing the Kurdish concentration in Turkey (You know Istanbul is the Turkish city), they should have limited it with our borders.

Yes, I noticed it is a German map. Germans acted against PKK corruption sometime before the elections, I already told that Germany participated in that PKK issue as well.

But you notice the TV5 logo at the left top, I guess.

[LeftEyeNine]

“It's the other's wishes or views”: Ask the Kurds what they want because the last time I went in Turkey, just listen Kurdish music was a crime…

It's been a long time since you visited Turkey then..

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

What are French people?
To be honest, that confuses the hell out of me. I suppose I mean those who do not come from parts of France that have a very recent history of having an identity associated with a different language than French (yes, I know that a fair chunk of eastern Brittany has not had many Breton speakers for centuries, some parts of it were never really Breton but more Gallo speaking; the Basque language is in decline in those Basque areas; I'm sure German is in decline etc.).
Yet, I'll still talk about all of France as France unless I need to do otherwise but if I want to talk about, Basques, Bretons, Alsatians, Corsicans etc. I'll refer to those areas of France with the most traditional attachments to the French language as the French. If you get my meaning.


As for the French being good at geography: the Basques and Bretons I knew/know have often been the sort of people to make sure that other French people knew exactly what the geographic issues were. As you said, maybe the ones I lived with were just good at geography anyway.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

LEN:
so the -stan suffix implies a state rather than just an area associated with a certain culture?

[Don Corleone]

Well, Louis & Saturnus make a good point. I don't speak Turkish, so I can't determine where exactly the website got that map from and how it was being promoted.

Left Eye, could you tell us where that map came from and what the title of it is? Perhaps a link to it's original European home that the Turkish site got it from?

If it's just a cultural association map, it's not worth getting upset over (as opposed to a political map). We have maps showing where Appalachia is, and I guarantee you, nobody is talking about granting the hillbillies :mickey: :kid: :guitarist: :hair: :klingon: :mad: :dunce: their own autonomous state within the US.

[LeftEyeNine]

LEN:
so the -stan suffix implies a state rather than just an area associated with a certain culture?

Yes, that's it.

[A.Saturnus]

Kurdistan means "The Country of Kurds". Kurd : The ethnicity + -istan : The country, land etc. (Used for describing a country though. Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.) So this decays the claim calling that concentration of the Kurds. This is not about the ethnicity concentration stuff. You notice the Kurdistan part drawn over the Turkish borders. If it was about showing the Kurdish concentration in Turkey (You know Istanbul is the Turkish city), they should have limited it with our borders.

Kurdistan is a name commonly used for the region traditionally associated with Kurds, whether one advocates the founding of such a state or not. Assuming that this program showed this map for the purpose of propaganda is violating the Principle of Charity.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

LEN:so, basically, this map is, in your eyes, akin to showing a map of the entire island of Ireland as being the Republic of Ireland?

I'm sure that example would have annoyed alot of British people back in the days when they cared about the union with Northern Ireland.

Saturnus, Louis etc.: in your eyes it would be like simply having the entire island of Ireland marked as Ireland?

[LeftEyeNine]

First of all, Turkey has 3-4 major newspaper publications which are respectable, well-known and obey the press ethics (right word ?). They are Sabah, Hurriyet, Milliyet and Cumhuriyet. The news is extracted from Milliyet, a newspaper that is nearly as old as the republic itself. What's more there is an offical reaction against the funny broadcast by the governments minister of culture and tourism- Atilla Koc. The government politicians do move politically, they would not jump on some silly paper's biased or intentional news.

The map with TV5 logo at the corner is a screenshot from the broadcast. You know, it's hard to follow up such a strange map on internet. The problem is it was publicly broadcasted on TV5 in a programme about Istanbul. That is a wisemouth insult.

Don Corleone, you already know that US and Turkey has different bases as a state foundation. There is no ethnical root called as the Americans, USA is a cooperation of people from all over the world living in wealth. At least, it is obvious that "American" is an invention, Turk is a race. No offense, I just want to point out the difference.

So a Kurdish population breeding by at least 4 children in every family, which is an ethnical race and which has 13 million population in Turkey, can not be compared to Appalachians.

[Adrian II]

Maybe it was all about "yes they have a right" stuff but I don't think that Benelux Brothers were not warned about the fascist Kurdish activity - which is far from being democratic in any means.So they are fascist and undemocratic, no less... Hmm. I believe the Kongra-Gel (later renamed Kurdistan Workers Party) was founded in 1974 by Abdullah Öcalan as a Marxist-Leninist organization. They began their guerilla campaign in 1984, a year after the Kurdish language had been forbidden by the military dictatorship in Ankara. After the army had allowed elections in 1983, they kept Turgut Özal and his Motherland Party (ANAP) in power, supported by Grey Wolves and other nationalist paramilitaries. You tell me who the fascists were in those days...

Of course, times have changed. The Turkish authorities captured Öcalan in Kenya in early 1999. In August 1999, Öcalan announced his "peace initiative" and ordered his followers to refrain from violence and resume political dialogue. At a PKK Congress in January 2000, members supported Öcalan’s initiative and claimed the group now would use only political means to achieve its goal of equal rights for Turkish Kurds. In April 2002 at its 8th Party Congress, the PKK changed the name again to the Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (KADEK) and reiterated its commitment to non-violence. The party has become more islamist and chauvinist, less Marxist in outlook. Membership and activities have been dwindling. In 2004 they announced the end of the 'cease-fire', but compared to the 1980's little violence has ensued. It seems that a sizeable part of the 5000 strong membership wants to call it a day anyway. Peaceful developments in the Kurdish part of Turkey have overtaken them. Let us hope that these will endure, and that Turks will come to appreciate the Kurdish element in their nation and history.

[LeftEyeNine]

@ Saturnus

When I'm talking about the population mix of a country, I say e.g. %18 Elves, %25 Gnomes, %44 Orcs and %13 Humans. That's not the way.

So if they are talking about the region there, I wan to see Lesser Armenia which historically was the homelands of Armenians, located in eastern & southeastern part closer to the central Anatolia. Just look it up at M:TW.

If it is about the population, you have to inform about the facts in a careful manner, not by insulting whole physica structure of a country.

If it is about the region, where is Lasser Armenia ?

What is Principle of Charity ?

@ Taffy,

I do not know anything about Irish issue there. I avoid insulting others when I'm far away from internal socio-cultural facts, the history etc. It's easy to draw Kurdistan or something over there, or so easy to say "They are 13 million, why not liberating?". The foreigners do not know what kind of social conflict is going around here. What's more, they are free all over the country - financially and culturally. That means, they have prosperity to live, and have enough prosperity to enjoy it.

[LeftEyeNine]

So they are fascist and undemocratic, no less... Hmm. I believe the Kongra-Gel (later renamed Kurdistan Workers Party) was founded in 1974 by Abdullah Öcalan as a Marxist-Leninist organization. They began their guerilla campaign in 1984, a year after the Kurdish language had been forbidden by the military dictatorship in Ankara. After the army had allowed elections in 1983, they kept Turgut Özal and his Motherland Party (ANAP) in power, supported by Grey Wolves and other nationalist paramilitaries. You tell me who the fascists were in those days...

Before 1980, the whole Turkey was boiling up with the harsh Left-Right conflict including arms, murders, ambushes every day. A total period of chaos..

So, in order to prevent things from getting any worse the army came into power, and stated its dictatorship for "the sake of the country". It was a major setback for the democratic improvement of Turkey. It was not only Kurdish language forbidden, it was a whole social life being forbidden, whoever you are. Armed inquisitions everywhere, arresting nearly any and every politicians etc. I did not personally experience the whole mess since I was born in '84. That's what is being told every 12th of September, in demonstrations against that military dictatorship declared in 1980.

Briefly, it was not anything particular agianst Kurds, it was against every individual in Turkey. You are really informed about Turkish recent history though, I appreciate it.

And the very interesting part.. Turgut Ozal was a Kurd who was a prime minister once, who was the president once. He was the one who let the Kurdish refugees stacked at the borders of Turkey at times of Gulf War, on a runaway - an approximate population of 1 million.

I'm sorry but your first paragraph is a misinformated.

[GoreBag]

"-stan" isn't so much a word to describe a nation in legal terms as a country, or the German Land. It's where the Kurds live, really. The British Empire in India was once called Hindustan.

That, coupled with how Kurdistan is super-imposed over the regions of Turkey where it is "located", makes a pretty strong ethnographical statement. The superimposition of the region forbids it from being a geo-political one at all.

Kurdistan, might, after all, be a better term for "where the Kurds live" than ,,Wo wohnen die Kurden''.

[Adrian II]

Briefly, it was not anything particular agianst Kurds, it was against every individual in Turkey. I'm sorry but your first paragraph is a misinformated.I know that not only Kurds, but many more people suffered in those days. I concentrated on the Kurdish issue because that was the topic of the post I answered.

And I am aware of the Kurdish element in Turkish history, from thinker Said Nursi to singer Shiwan Perwer. And if it hadn't been for Saladin, well... ~;)

[LeftEyeNine]

@NeonGod

I think that's a western-eastern cultural conflict.

-stan is used for states generally. Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Macaristan, Hindistan, Ermenistan (Hungary, India, Armenia in Turkish respectively) are all states.

BBC had avoided to call PKK terrorists calling that way, saying that they had to be careful with their selection of words as a representative of press. And look at what TV5 does now. During such a stiff and sensitive phase, they tend call it in a very "careless" way.

BBC cares not to call them terrorists, TV5 freely calls a Kurdistan over Turkey in a program about Istanbul, as if they are making fool of it. I am totally confused. Easy way out, democracy stuff, the it-comes-where-you-want-to-pull-it miracle of all time.

[LeftEyeNine]

I know that not only Kurds, but many more people suffered in those days. I concentrated on the Kurdish issue because that was the topic of the post I answered.

But the fact is a whole. You can not take Kurds out of it since the topic is about Kurds, come on. The Military dictatorship stopped the whole life in Turkey. The military dictatorship came in power to drive things back in order, not drive Kurds in order. A bit of comprehension ability, you can not take that way, AdrianII. It was Turks suffering it more than any other ethnicity living here. We are (I mean the EU-lovers) crawling to compensate the democratic setback caused by that September 12 incident.

[ShadesPanther]

LEN:so, basically, this map is, in your eyes, akin to showing a map of the entire island of Ireland as being the Republic of Ireland?

I'm sure that example would have annoyed alot of British people back in the days when they cared about the union with Northern Ireland.

Saturnus, Louis etc.: in your eyes it would be like simply having the entire island of Ireland marked as Ireland?


Well as Republic of Ireland but that would only annoy less then a million people in Northern Ireland and a small amount of others. If you make the Republic as UK territory it would annoy more. Or perhaps make USA as UK territory.

EDIT: or the Falklands as Argintinian

[Adrian II]

But the fact is a whole. You can not take Kurds out of it since the topic is about Kurds, come on.Oh yes, I can. This thread is about Kurdistan and Kurdish terrorism. The Kurdish issue escalated because of attitudes in Ankara, the worst of which were represented by the army. It could possibly have been resolved by different means. You will agree that, for instance, outlawing the Kurdish language in 1983 was not very helpful in this regard. We can discuss everybody else who suffered from the army in some other thread if you like. It is not as if I want to single out the Kurds as the sole victims.

[Byzantine Prince]

There are no terrorists really. Just nationally or spiritually motivated warriors. They have always existed. The word terrorism started with France's reign of terror, but that was a government commiting those acts through the leadership of Robespierre. So you see it doesn't apply(or shouldn't apply) to individuals that are fighting for a certain cause.

I think anyone who doesn't see how this makes sense, should not respond to it.

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh yes, I can. This thread is about Kurdistan and Kurdish terrorism. The Kurdish issue escalated because of attitudes in Ankara, the worst of which were represented by the army. It could possibly have been resolved by different means. You will agree that, for instance, outlawing the Kurdish language in 1983 was not very helpful in this regard. We can discuss everybody else who suffered from the army in some other thread if you like. It is not as if I want to single out the Kurds as the sole victims.

Oh no, you can not ~:)

Possibly public uses of all other languages were prohibited (Bosnian, Armenian, Greek and all other minority languages). All social and politic acts were prohibited. You could be sent to jail by books including communist terms. Maybe it was only a Russin novelist nothing more, but it would not save you from being jailed.

Dictatorship is dictatorship because it forces the existence of only one voice - the voice of itself. I still can not sense anything particular against Kurds withSeptember 12 incident. The previous and later actions may be discussed, however I can not agree with you on relevancy of Kurdish oppression with September 12 dictatorship.

[LeftEyeNine]

By the way, I saw the TV5 broadcast partially on a Turkish channel tonight. I saw the map right away. And while the PKK terrorists were called the rebels..

Only of curiosity, did modern France ever deal with terrorism ?

[Papewaio]

France has been hit quite a lot by terrorism.

And they have commited state sponsored terrorism too.

[LeftEyeNine]

I mean any particular organizations with continuous actions ?

[bmolsson]

There are no freedom fighters, only terrorists. Sure there are terrorists with a noble cause, but they are not less terrorists for that......

[Spetulhu]

BBC cares not to call them terrorists, TV5 freely calls a Kurdistan over Turkey in a program about Istanbul, as if they are making fool of it. I am totally confused. Easy way out, democracy stuff, the it-comes-where-you-want-to-pull-it miracle of all time.

So what do you expect with the mess in Iraq and all? The media has told us about how the evil Saddam massacred innocent Kurds ever since he became an enemy of the West. It would be too confusing for the general public to bring up Kurdish terrorism after that. :dizzy2:

[Papewaio]

There are no freedom fighters, only terrorists. Sure there are terrorists with a noble cause, but they are not less terrorists for that......

Disagree.

If you attack the military and try and minimise civilian harm then you are freedom fighters.

If you attack civilians to cause terror to enact political change you are a terrorist.

If you attack civilians for money (kidnapping etc) you are a criminal.

[Adrian II]

I still can not sense anything particular against Kurds with September 12 incident.For the third and last time: I agree. :dizzy2:

[LeftEyeNine]

So what do you expect with the mess in Iraq and all? The media has told us about how the evil Saddam massacred innocent Kurds ever since he became an enemy of the West. It would be too confusing for the general public to bring up Kurdish terrorism after that.

That describes a lot. I've never thought of that. Interesting point. But make sure that life isn't pity for Kurds in Turkey.

[Spetulhu]

That describes a lot. I've never thought of that. Interesting point. But make sure that life isn't pity for Kurds in Turkey.

Things are getting better, that's true. But there's still several hundred thousand Kurds unable to return to the homes they were forced out of in the 90s.

[Louis VI the Fat]

By the way, I saw the TV5 broadcast partially on a Turkish channel tonight. I saw the map right away. And while the PKK terrorists were called the rebels..

Only of curiosity, did modern France ever deal with terrorism ?I haven't seen the program. For what it's worth, here's the link to TV5 - 24 Heures à Istanbul (http://www.cites.tv/citesdumonde/destinations.php?idDest=26) and an announcement of the content and guests. (http://www.tv5.org/TV5Site/tv5monde/communiques2.php?id_communique=147) Btw, TV5 isn't french, but a joint venture between France, Belgium, Switzerland and Canada.

About the map, well, I'm sorry to say that I will not follow the Turkish line of reasoning. It's just a simple map of where Kurds live.

Showing which neighborhouds of Belfast are predominantly catholic doesn't equal support for the IRA. Showing a map of where in the Caucasus Chechens live doesn't mean you support terrorism. My, imagine Russia accussing the US of supporting the taking hostage of schools in Beslan simply because CNN showed an ethnographic map of the Caucasus as background information.

No, the problem is that the Turkish state has tricked people into believing that the sole mentioning of the existense of a Kurdish people equals treason and support for terrorism.

Well sorry man, we won't subscribe to that line of reasoning. Simply acknowledging the existense of 15 million people doesn't automatically mean support for the PKK. No more than the opposite is true either - that showing a map of Turkey automatically means you are in favour of repression of minorities by the Turkish state.

[LeftEyeNine]

Turkish state may have tried cultural assimilation in the earlier years of the Republic. I'm reading an academic workout right now, not finished yet. But it was not about Ataturk, I must emphasize. The first activist meeting was the Congress of Erzurum that was gathered in order to provide the fundamentals of the Independence War cause. The 56 members/representatives from various parts of the country had come to the meeting of whom 28 were Kurds. That's why.

The word "Kurdistan" always irritates the Turkish. The only perception is the state itself, not the area or region. Actually %44 of Istanbul is now Kurd. If this was an ethnographic map, TV5 would gladly be adding Istanbul to Kurdistan. Kurds do not live where Kurdistan is. They live where there is work, welfare and money. If Kurdistan was liberated, I can assert that no population turn-back would occur. Turkish government is continuously investing in the area where is absolutely a part of Turkey, never will be anything else, giving incitements to private sector to persuade them to invest in the area. However, as recently it is as well, PKK still threatens the area.

There is also a social face of the Kurd Issue. Burglary, mafias, gangs, mugging, raping, murdering rates significantly increased after the flock of Kurds towards the western part of Turkey. So you can not prevent ordinary people from getting incredibly annoyed with being assaulted in their own lands. The anger stated against Kurds is not a Turkish government directed one, it's all about unstoppable increasing rates of corruption caused by Kurds, it's all internally social.

Everyone has the right to love or not to love somebody, something. That's natural. Personally, I do not like Kurds at all (in fact more than that), they are main cause of all corruption in beautiful Izmir. You know, I am one of those ordinary people.

However I have to state that my opinion is only my opinion; not affected by any other political organization (Ulkuculer for example), ideology, fraction or anything else. I do not serve any cause anyhow, that's only what LEN thinks by himself.

The solution ? Well, the best I can think for both the sake of Turkey and the better of Kurds is entering the EU, gaining a free roam in it and seeing the Kurds flock into Europe. Reality will be bitter..

[A.Saturnus]

LEN, the Principle of Charity means that when you can interpret what another said in different ways, you should choose the interpretation that makes the most sense and is the least offensive. I think whoever made that map didn´t expect to offend people with it. I certainly don´t find it offensive. As I said, the term Kurdistan is common use. Certainly in German. It only refers to where the Kurds live and makes no statement about autonomy. I think when Karl May wrote "the Wild Men of Kurdistan" there wasn´t a state called Kurdistan as well, am I right? If you´re not accustomed to the use of the word Kurdistan in German, you may think that it refers to a state, I understand, but it doesn´t. As you can see, the map shows not only Kurdistan but also the correct borders of Turkey. Turkey is depicted as a state and Kurdistan is overlaid as an ethnic territory. This is not what you thought it is.

[Brenus]

“who do not come from parts of France that have a very recent history of having an identity associated with a different language than French”: I know, I won’t be fair. The most nationalist part in France is Alsace, where most of the population speak medieval kind of German, and the most recent acquisition in French territory is Savoy (after 1840), where every body speak only French… ~:)

“The foreigners do not know what kind of social conflict is going around here” I do have a vague idea because I was under the bombardment from the Turkish Air Force when working in Iraq after Provide Comfort Operation when the Turks bombed the PKK position. I perfectly remember the very dangerous female terrorist around 60 years old shot from helicopters I had to evacuate to hospital and the slaughter of the sheep by the Turkish army. I will always remember the black smoke behind the F4 Phantom, when I thought that this time it was for me, when all the Kurds, children, women, and elderly gathered around me, westerner, like if I could protect them from what happened in the others villages… I will always remember the pieces of stone which where houses and villages… And yes, it is a long time I went in Turkey, but I will always remember the fear of the taxi-driver when one friend put a tape of Kurdish music… And perhaps there are improvements, but I got some knowledge about what happened…
Turkey is the only country where I saw a M60 tank painted in blue and with POLICE written on it (yes it was 10 years ago…)

The democratic process which will end in the entrance of Turkey in EU will heal the injuries. If the Kurds are treated by Turkey as 100% citizens and won’t be anymore under suspicion, they will start to feel Turks and Kurds. The problem is not the regional roots but the building of a democracy. ~D

“Only of curiosity, did modern France ever deal with terrorism”: GIA (Muslim Terrorism exported from Algeria), Corsican terrorists who refuse to admit they loose the referendum, in the 70-80, Action Direct (French equivalent of the Red Brigade), some ASALA (Armenian) bombing against Turkish interest in France, some actions from extreme Right, like the one when one guy tried to kill Chirac on the 14th of July. That should be enough. ~D

“Burglary, mafias, gangs, mugging, raping, murdering rates significantly increased after the flock of Kurds towards the western part of Turkey” Where I read that before? Ah, yes, in some Germans newspapers, about the Turks… If you want to be trusted, don’t write (I repeat, DO NOT) this kind of allegations which smell fish (too closed to racism) if you want an advice. :furious3:

[LeftEyeNine]

I do have a vague idea because I was under the bombardment from the Turkish Air Force when working in Iraq after Provide Comfort Operation when the Turks bombed the PKK position. I perfectly remember the very dangerous female terrorist around 60 years old shot from helicopters I had to evacuate to hospital and the slaughter of the sheep by the Turkish army. I will always remember the black smoke behind the F4 Phantom, when I thought that this time it was for me, when all the Kurds, children, women, and elderly gathered around me, westerner, like if I could protect them from what happened in the others villages… I will always remember the pieces of stone which where houses and villages… And yes, it is a long time I went in Turkey, but I will always remember the fear of the taxi-driver when one friend put a tape of Kurdish music… And perhaps there are improvements, but I got some knowledge about what happened…
Turkey is the only country where I saw a M60 tank painted in blue and with POLICE written on it (yes it was 10 years ago…)

That's not anything better than my "close to racist" generalization post, if it does not sound good at all. So every misbombardment could be taken intentional and generalized to a whole action of an army..No comment..

I know what's being told about Turks in Germany. Actually, I get it better from a German's point of view.

In 50's (right?) people crawling with poverty move to Germany to provide workforce. Never and ever out of the tiny village, but landed in Germany instantly. What would you expect from the poor who has never seen the citylife, civilization? But as a German, I'd be mad about people runing my country's social order.

What's more you know Turkey is not only where Turks live. We have a whole Eastern part called Kurdistan.

[Brenus]

“So every misbombardment could be taken intentional and generalized to a whole action of an army..No comment…” Euh, it wasn’t a mis-bombardment… I t was a deliberate campaign going on for few days until the Allies decided that Deny-Fly applied also for the Turks… ~D

And about racism, I am quiet sure you didn’t thing as a racist. But I heard this kind of sentence against the others (Russian against Chechen, Serbian against Albanians, Croats against Serbs, French against Algerians, Europeans against Eastern Countries, and probably US citizens against Mexicans) that I am tired of these allegations. They are always wrongs and just show disdain towards others… And about the TV5 thing, I watched it (only the Atta Turk part) and I have to say it was a great piece of pro-Turk propaganda. If only half of what was said is true this guy is the model of tolerance and enlightenment… ~D

“What's more you know Turkey is not only where Turks live. We have a whole Eastern part called Kurdistan”. Yeap, and Algeria was France too… Sorry, I couldn’t resist… ~D

[LeftEyeNine]

I know what's being told about Turks in Germany. Actually, I get it better from a German's point of view.

In 50's (right?) people crawling with poverty move to Germany to provide workforce. Never and ever out of the tiny village, but landed in Germany instantly. What would you expect from the poor who has never seen the citylife, civilization? But as a German, I'd be mad about people runing my country's social order.

What's more you know Turkey is not only where Turks live. We have a whole Eastern part called Kurdistan.

This part was a whole.. Take it as one paragraph..

[Beirut]

Everyone has the right to love or not to love somebody, something. That's natural. Personally, I do not like Kurds at all (in fact more than that), they are main cause of all corruption in beautiful Izmir. You know, I am one of those ordinary people.


Yes, everybody has the right to love or not love somebody, but they do not have the right to voice it here in such a way.

Statements like yours are out of line and out of bounds. That kind of language stops here and now.

First and last warning.

[LeftEyeNine]

Beirut

Sorry, I didn't know that expressing such a thing was considered to be insulting the rules.. I tried to put myself open..

The one-sided ceasefire declared by PKK ended in 20th September. Until then the officials expected some serious problems caused by PKK. There are several Turkish troops being killed and some terrorists as well. Yesterday a plan to blow up a whole train running from Erzurum to Erzincan was exposed. There were kilograms of C4 planted in two points along the rail line. Fortunately, they were found..

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/342699.asp

[Louis VI the Fat]

LEN, I'm not trying to bait you or anything.

But why do you equate a people of fifteen million with a terrorist organization?
Really, one can put the PKK on any point on a scale ranging from 'freedom fighters' to 'terrorist scum' without that affecting one's opinion of Kurds as a whole.
Aren't you, in turn, a bit offended when people say they 'just don't like mulims' and then quote Al-Qaida attacks as justification for that opinion?


*Adds ~:grouphug: to make peaceful intention abundantly clear*

[LeftEyeNine]

LEN, I'm not trying to bait you or anything.

But why do you equate a people of fifteen million with a terrorist organization?
Really, one can put the PKK on any point on a scale ranging from 'freedom fighters' to 'terrorist scum' without that affecting one's opinion of Kurds as a whole.
Aren't you, in turn, a bit offended when people say they 'just don't like mulims' and then quote Al-Qaida attacks as justification for that opinion?


*Adds ~:grouphug: to make peaceful intention abundantly clear*

I already sense the neutrality with your post, Louis..~:) I'll try to explain it a bit if it does not insult the forum rules again..

Yes, it drives me crazy when they label all Muslims as terrorists. Because the majority does not support the freaky idea of bombing the innocent to threaten the governments. Sparkles yell out a great noise but the forest itself is silent.

But there is a strange distinction between "terrorist labeled Muslims" and "corruption-cause labeled Kurds". What's more I did not call them terrorists. They do not have to pickup a weapon to attract anger. I mean they do not have to be "terrorists" literally. The corruption I talk about covers the significant part of a whole Kurdish community. I can not prove out anything right out of this forum where we communicate before monitors. What I will tell you here belongs to the real social life, and everytime I tell you something, I will face questions asking "are you representing the whole Turks that what you suffer can be generalized to accuse Kurds?". And as long as I will try to scale up incidents from the real life, it will turn into an absurd and ridiculous attempt to support my thoughts. I wish we could spend a year together in Turkey, and let you see what's happening around everyday without ever hanging onto my thoughts - only by yourself.

Additionally, I have to say that I did not ever have any problems with Bosnians, Serbians, Greeks, Rums, Circassians, Armenians or any other one belonging to an ethnic minority living in Turkey. Having "anti-" mentality against a race may be called a way of racism. (What System Of A Down band does is a great example for that). In that case, I do not know how you may call me but the reality going around here drove my thoughts that way. I am and/or was never related to any chauvinist, racist organization, political fraction or community, never and ever will be. What's more Turkish racists insist on the idea of pure Turkish blood which is quite similar to the Nazi ideology although they do not symphatize them at all. I have a quite serious problem with Kurds personally. And as Beirut stated, I do not think that it would be any more convenient to voice that here. I should also say that I tried to keep my words below the line. However, I do not want to repeat that again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I wish we could spend a year together in Turkey, and let you see what's happening around everyday without ever hanging onto my thoughts.Would you believe I really like the idea of that? ~;)
Oh, the tragedy of a short, mortal life. So much to see and do, so precious little time...

Anyway, here's another question for you. You seemed upset at the idea of an independent Kurdistan. But judging from your posts, you rather fancy the idea of a Turkey without Kurds. So shouldn't you rather be in favour of a separate Kurdistan?

*feels the presence of Beirut's ever-watchful eyes poking over his shoulders. Fears his axe like a majestic maple tree destined to be cut into Ikea furniture and tries to thread carefully...*

[LeftEyeNine]

Anyway, here's another question for you. You seemed upset at the idea of an independent Kurdistan. But judging from your posts, you rather fancy the idea of a Turkey without Kurds. So shouldn't you rather be in favour of a separate Kurdistan

As long as it is out of Misak-i Milli bounds drawn decades ago by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, an independent Kurdistan is favorable.

Here's a counter question for you ? Do you really think that Kurds would leave Turkey for an independent Kurdistan, say, founded in Northern Iraq ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

As long as it is out of Misak-i Milli bounds drawn decades ago by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, an independent Kurdistan is favorable.

Here's a counter question for you ? Do you really think that Kurds would leave Turkey for an independent Kurdistan, say, founded in Northern Iraq ?No.
Because an independent Kurdistan founded in Northern Iraq is destined to become yet another 'failed state'. Instable, violent and anarchic. Another Middle-East despotistan at best.
On the other hand, in a two steps forward, one step back kind of way, Turkey is on it's way to becoming an industrialized, affluent and democratic country.