View Full Version : Should British Forces Pull out?
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 16:01
Simple yes and no give your opinion as well.
It has been discussed because of recent events were two service men were taken from a Police station by force. I personally think it will be the best thing to do, we should never have been there in the ifrst place nor should we stay.
Your opinions?
Ianofsmeg16
09-20-2005, 17:00
yes....pull out of Iraq and into France.....only joking.....iran
Spetulhu
09-20-2005, 17:16
No. If British forces left now the Americans might lose what little control they have. The resulting civil war would be nasty business.
Adrian II
09-20-2005, 17:23
Of course they should pull out. The question is when and under what circumstances, supposing they can influence them. Even Jack Straw has now recognised that the British presence has become 'part of the security problem in Iraq'.
lancelot
09-20-2005, 17:24
1) Pull out and let the whole middle east kill itself in petty wars of religious intolerence.
2) Establish the new colony of Blisstonia ~;)
Mikeus Caesar
09-20-2005, 18:26
Pull out and let the Middle East gradually heat up until it explodes in a giant explosion of war. Once everyone is dead and gone, we move in and conquer the charred wasteland that is left. We can enforce democracy on the cockroaches.
Yes, pull out now. Ever since the insurgency began, I think the presence of Coalition troops has fuelled it rather than reduced it. The last year and half has done nothing to change that view. At least if the US and UK get out, the insurgents can't unite around a "let's shoot the invaders" banner. (It was interesting today that Al Zarqawi has declared his AQ Sunni/foreign fighters will not target Muqtada al-Sadr anti-US Shiite militias.)
Whatever conflicts remain, they seem essentially domestic and need to be solved internally. Letting the Iraqis take full responsibility for their own security may well be necessary for the horse-trading or, God forbid, further bloodletting needed for the country's divided people to reach a modus vivendi. If they keep relying on the crutch of Coalition military power, their leaders may not have the will to organise their own security, make deals with those insurgents that can be dealt with and crush those that cannot.
A common rejoinder to calls to pull the Coalition troops out fast has always been that since the Coalition "broke" Iraq, it should "fix" it. But I am afraid I am not seeing any evidence that the Coalition can fix it.
Well it's just getting worse as it is. At some point the Iraqis need to just get on and rule themselves.
Del Arroyo
09-20-2005, 18:54
To pull out unilaterally would be cowardly and dishonourable, obviously. Save your US-bashing for another time-- Britain made the commitment when she got into this thing, and if she didn't want to follow through she should have thought about it then.
Any REAL conversation on the topic should be-- "should COALITION forces pull out?".
And on that topic-- if our withdrawal removes the need for genocide on the Sunnis, perhaps it would be a good idea. Though if we did leave and there was genocide anyway, frankly I wouldn't care.
We most certainly flocked this thing up, out of our own stupidity, but that does not in any way excuse the terrorist elements or their campaign of slaughter-- nor should there be any mercy (in a perfect world) for the Sunni "civilians" who support them.
DA
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 18:59
Cowardly and dishounarble, i dont see were you gather that from, what else can our forces do there, the country is going into civil war now, and i definatley dont want my servicemen there if that breaks out.
yesdachi
09-20-2005, 19:00
Pull out, but not alone, the US and everyone else too. Leave whoever “we” want in charge with the weapons needed to stay in charge and get out. Our physical presence is just ticking everyone there off. We can easily play a behind the scenes influence from back home, wherever back home is. ~:)
I still like the idea of spreading freedom and all that but we need to quickly establish a government there and make them take over the reigns of physically running the place while “we” continue influencing a stable society. To completely cut our ties and leave would be wrong but it is time to get out, dub Iraq “free” and leave. If it doesn’t work out for them we can always go back in 10 years. ~;)
King Henry V
09-20-2005, 20:37
Yes, pull out now. The situation is a complete mess and why do our boys have to die in someone else's war? We didn't even get any damned construction contracts! Let hte Iraqis sort themseleves out, pumped to the brim with American cash and equipment. Why America, with one of the most powerful armies in the world, needs the small British army is beyond me.
Duke Malcolm
09-20-2005, 20:42
Yes, we should pull out. But the US Army needs the little (and soon to be even littler) British Army because our troops are just so much better than theirs, we can do the job better, and without a nice war all our troops would be sitting about waiting for the Argentinians to invade again.
King Henry V
09-20-2005, 20:49
Ah, we can always invade France. Their nothing compared to Iraqis! ~;)
Duke Malcolm
09-20-2005, 21:06
Yes, the French will drop their guns, a swift battle with the Foreign Legion (notice how the best soldiers in the French Army are not French), then the boys get a feast of good food, and wine.
Zharakov
09-20-2005, 21:38
No... Although the Americasn are good *If not the best* They do need help.
a topic not even about France ends up bashing French people... now thats facinating.
Adrian II
09-20-2005, 21:47
a topic not even about France ends up bashing French people... now thats facinating.That's easy, the French were right all along about Iraq. ~;)
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 22:23
lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we :D
Duke Malcolm
09-20-2005, 22:28
No... Although the Americasn are good *If not the best*
Is there some sarcasm here?
Adrian II
09-20-2005, 22:32
lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we :DBecause you are fifteen and you should be in bed by now. ~;)
Duke Malcolm
09-20-2005, 22:34
At twenty past ten? The poor boy... All the fights will just be starting in the street, and you would have him miss it all?
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 22:34
Never i will conquer france tomorow, just you watch, ill stay up all night if i have to. ~D
Adrian II
09-20-2005, 22:35
Never i will conquer france tomorow, just you watch, ill stay up all night if i have to. ~DSpoken like a king, and a King of England too. :bow:
scooter_the_shooter
09-20-2005, 22:37
The us military could beat the UK's easily.....the only thing better about yours is the snipers.
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 22:37
lol
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 22:38
The us military could beat the UK's easily.....the only thing better about yours is the snipers.
Now Now lets not have any of that talk we are allies, lets keep with the french bashing :bow:
scooter_the_shooter
09-20-2005, 22:39
I am serious the US could take over the UK easily. Your civilians have no guns so there will be no insurgency. And the US military is much better and much larger.
But thats why you are our allies.
(you bashed the US first I had to post that little bit)
King Ragnar
09-20-2005, 22:40
LoL ceaser i was laughing at adrians remark, we must have posted at the same time.
scooter_the_shooter
09-20-2005, 22:42
OK sorry. Well I think france should go in! And train the Insurgents. the war will be over in weeks!
I think the UK should stay until the Iraqi military is strong enough.
OK sorry. Well I think france should go in! And train the Insurgents. the war will be over in weeks!
Insurgent "Are you sure that's the right way to fire an rpg... I always thought it the projectile went away from you"
Frenchman :idea2: "(major butchering of the spelling) soch la bloom, that's why we could never destroy a German Tank!"
Zharakov
09-21-2005, 03:42
Is there some sarcasm here?
No... Im serious... The Americans are the best in the world... Only the most stupid of nations would try to win a war with them...
The CCCP stood a chance... but they don't exist anymore do they? *Thank God*
Strike For The South
09-21-2005, 04:34
You cant pull out who would make all the tea ( sersiouly dont we might be able to swing tea but crumpets is just completly out of our league)
And the US Army is the best a couple points or in the words of the great max payne bullet time
1. The Iraqis dont fight they run into crowded plazas and blow themselves up thats not fighting IIRC the real army keeled over and died after about 3 minutes
2. America is fighting this war with one finger half of our guys are agisant it and if tou ask anyone here what they thought about today Iraq would be about 8 or 9 on the list If you really want to see a pissed off American get us to the point where food and oil stamps are handedout
~:cheers:
Should British Forces Pull out?
That depends on whether or not they want to make a baby. It's worth pointing out that "pulling out" isn't the best method of preventing unwanted pregnancies, anyway. I know the U.K. military is strapped for cash, but can't they issue their soldiers, um, how shall I put this ... ponchos for their soldiers' little soldiers? That's what most armies do ...
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 05:47
You should finish what you start. No one held a gun to any British person's head and made them join in.
King Henry V
09-21-2005, 10:42
Except the decison was made by a bunch of corrupt, fat, lazy politicians in Westminster. They, fo cousre, would never dream of risking their necks by going to Iraq without as many bodyguars as there are soldiers in that God-forskane Hell-hole.
Sjakihata
09-21-2005, 10:45
For fear of the americans, I think the British should pull out right away. There's no telling when the next american bomber will eradicate a British platoon (or canadian for that matter).
So, out you go. You can come back when the americans learned to point a 'rpg' in the right direction.
pull the soldiers out.....give guns and ammo to the politicians that made the dumb decision and send them out there.
I´d even pay PPV charges to watch that.
Sjakihata
09-21-2005, 11:03
pull the soldiers out.....give guns and ammo to the politicians that made the dumb decision and send them out there.
I´d even pay PPV charges to watch that.
What weapon do you think Blair would use? And which one do you think the danish Minister of State (anders fogh rasmussen) would use? and the spanish? The most exciting is, of course, Bush's choice! I doubt he'd opt for a six-shooter, though.
Adrian II
09-21-2005, 11:30
You should finish what you start. No one held a gun to any British person's head and made them join in.Funny you should say that. In a sense, Mr Bush held a gun to everyone's head in 2001 when he declared that whoever is not with him is against him. I believe the main reason why Mr Blair decided to go along with the American invasion (even though he knew full well that the official motivation was fake) was to try and exert some moderating influence on the Americans and prevent them from becoming an all-out rogue state on the international scene.
I also believe he deeply regrets that decision because things haven't worked out as he foresaw. But that is educated conjecture, based upon testimony of people who worked closely with Mr Blair in the past three years.
What is important is that the decicion was regrettable and the Brits now have to make the best of a failed campaign. Basra is turning into a militant Shiite stronghold under their very hands. They have been feeding the Shiite tiger cubs for years and now they have grown big enough to swallow the Brits.
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 16:47
Funny you should say that. In a sense, Mr Bush held a gun to everyone's head in 2001 when he declared that whoever is not with him is against him.
Actually, he was refering to nations that harbored or supported terrorists, such as Iraq. He did not make that statement about the Iraq war.
King Ragnar
09-21-2005, 16:51
You should finish what you start. No one held a gun to any British person's head and made them join in.
It was Blairs decision and im sure if you went around and asked british civilians normal people they would say we should have never gone there in the first place.
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 17:01
It was Blairs decision and im sure if you went around and asked british civilians normal people they would say we should have never gone there in the first place.
Yet he is still the prime minister of your nation and his party is still in control of your government, no?
King Ragnar
09-21-2005, 17:04
Well it wasnt my decision to keep him in, some morons voted for him. But your right i suppose, just shows what a nation of idiots we can be at times.
Gawain of Orkeny
09-21-2005, 17:56
The us military could beat the UK's easily.....the only thing better about yours is the snipers.
Heck the USMC alone could beat all of Britains forces other than nuclear. ~D
Sjakihata
09-21-2005, 18:02
I don't think so, you old marine :p
Duke Malcolm
09-21-2005, 18:03
No... Im serious... The Americans are the best in the world... Only the most stupid of nations would try to win a war with them...
The CCCP stood a chance... but they don't exist anymore do they? *Thank God*
Only by numbers, not by the individual soldier's skill. And Gawain, I think that Her Majesty's Armed Forces could take on the USMC...
Gawain of Orkeny
09-21-2005, 18:08
I don't think so, you old marine :p
It might be interesting to compare the orders of battle between the two. I have no doubt the Marines could deploy faster than the whole of the British military. Besides that I think we outnumber you. ~;)
King Ragnar
09-21-2005, 18:22
Isnt it a bit chilidish this whole our army could beat yours stuff, i mean who cares the USA and UK will never go to war yet.........
Gawain of Orkeny
09-21-2005, 18:30
Isnt it a bit chilidish this whole our army could beat yours stuff, i mean who cares the USA and UK will never go to war yet.........
Isnt it a bit childish of you to call us childish? Its an intersting topic and nothing more. There no doubt the US military could defeat any nation in open battle. Im trying to give you guys a chance and only sig the Marines on you. ~D
PS there is no one I respect more than the British Military. A truly proffessional bunch.
Don Corleone
09-21-2005, 19:33
Well, the grudge match between the USMC and Her Majesties armed forces is fine, because we have people represented from both sides.
But you know, if I was French, I would have just about had it with everyone. :furious3: I know we all think 'they know we're just kidding', but they probably don't. If I was French, I'd be getting banned right about now. If somebody calls you a coward constantly, but when you call them on it they say "you know I'm just kidding, can't you take a joke", you're going to get really pissed off. What's more, France has a glorious military history. The only thing that might actually allay their rage is the sheer foolishness of it. I may not like the games they're playing on the international scene right now, and I may take issue with people who refer to them as an 'ally' of the United States, but come on... enough is enough.
*Sidenote: Mon amis, please note, the majority of the Franco-bashing is coming from your cousins across the channel, not your step-children across the pond.
Don Corleone
09-21-2005, 19:44
Rant mode off. Now, on a lighter note, did anybody else read the title of this thread and have a Beevis & Butthead moment... "Heheheh, he said pullout... heheheheh". I was going to make some crack about "If they haven't brought protection with them, for the love of God, make sure to pull out". Sorry, sometimes certain expressions bring out the worst in me. :mask:
If they pull out and civil war errupts all their work and all the soldiers they lost would be for no purpose. I`d say stay until one can be sure that such a thing cannot happen.
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 20:35
But you know, if I was French, I would have just about had it with everyone. I know we all think 'they know we're just kidding', but they probably don't. If I was French, I'd be getting banned right about now. If somebody calls you a coward constantly, but when you call them on it they say "you know I'm just kidding, can't you take a joke", you're going to get really pissed off. What's more, France has a glorious military history. The only thing that might actually allay their rage is the sheer foolishness of it. I may not like the games they're playing on the international scene right now, and I may take issue with people who refer to them as an 'ally' of the United States, but come on... enough is enough.
Oh come on, the US gets bashed constently and Britain has an entire thread about the crumbling of its society.
French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.
"I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me." - Patton
^Now that is taken generally as a shot at France, but Im not sure if it wasnt an crack about the German military. ~;)
Don Corleone
09-21-2005, 20:46
Oh come on, the US gets bashed constently and Britain has an entire thread about the crumbling of its society.
French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.
And when people bash the US constantly, I call them on it. Of course humor here there is fine. But honestly, if all the time, you're hearing how cowardly everyone thinks you are, don't you think you'd get really sick of it?
I'm sure the French have a lot of nasty things to say in the local salon about America. But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book. If we want them to show us some respect, we should begin by treating them the way we'd like them to treat us.
Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 21:00
It might be interesting to compare the orders of battle between the two. I have no doubt the Marines could deploy faster than the whole of the British military. Besides that I think we outnumber you. ~;)
What are you talking about Gawain?Deploy faster.How many ships does The marine Corps have,or are you thinking of swimming across the Atlantic to kick britains arse.Maybe British Navy will pitty you guys and pick you up from the ocean. ~D
Sjakihata
09-21-2005, 21:08
What are you talking about Gawain?Deploy faster.How many ships does The marine Corps have,or are you thinking of swimming across the Atlantic to kick britains arse.Maybe British Navy will pitty you guys and pick you up from the ocean. ~D
lol that made me laugh ~D
seriously though, the USMC is the (or one of the) worlds quickest forces to deploy. That's their purpose. To go in and try to fix things, before the cavalry arrive. They do use ships - and quite big ones as well. And jets. They are a little army in themselves, I think that's the point. But be sure, Gawain WILL let you know ~;)
Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 21:16
lol that made me laugh ~D
seriously though, the USMC is the (or one of the) worlds quickest forces to deploy. That's their purpose. To go in and try to fix things, before the cavalry arrive. They do use ships - and quite big ones as well. And jets. They are a little army in themselves, I think that's the point. But be sure, Gawain WILL let you know ~;)
I know that they have the best reaction time in the world.But its the US NAVY that moves them around.Also their fighters are launched from the US NAVY carriers.That is why i cracked that joke.If Gawain says that they can beat maybe the worlds second best Army with only Marines,i would like to know how?
~;)
Adrian II
09-21-2005, 21:25
But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book.No Frenchmen in saloons will ever read this forum. We have only a handful of active French members here who are without exception intelligent, reasonable, witty and polite. It is a shame to treat them this way.
Gawain of Orkeny
09-21-2005, 21:31
I know that they have the best reaction time in the world.But its the US NAVY that moves them around.Also their fighters are launched from the US NAVY carriers.That is why i cracked that joke.If Gawain says that they can beat maybe the worlds second best Army with only Marines,i would like to know how?
You forget that the Marines have their own airwing. We dont need the navy to move us around. We also have Marine airbases. In my 4 years in the Marine airwing neither I nor anyone in any of my squadrons nor any aircraft from those squadrons served on a carrier.
Adrian II
09-21-2005, 21:36
A common rejoinder to calls to pull the Coalition troops out fast has always been that since the Coalition "broke" Iraq, it should "fix" it. But I am afraid I am not seeing any evidence that the Coalition can fix it.I tend to agree, all things considered -- from afar, that is...
Simon Jenkins had a forceful piece in The Guardian this morning in which he brings some historical perspective to the question.
[Blair's] axiom is that western soldiers are so competent that, wherever they go, only good can result. It is their duty not to leave Iraq until order is established, infrastructure rebuilt and democracy entrenched.
Note the word "until". It hides a bloodstained half century of western self-delusion and arrogance. The white man's burden is still alive and well in the skies over Baghdad (the streets are now too dangerous). Soldiers and civilians may die by the hundred. Money may be squandered by the million. But Tony Blair tells us that only western values enforced by the barrel of a gun can save the hapless Mussulman from his own worst enemy, himself.
Signalling withdrawal would, it is said, give a green light to the gangs and private militias, to revenge attacks, ethnic cleansing and even partition. That threat is no longer meaningful since these are all happening anyway. The militias have reportedly infiltrated at least half the police and internal security forces in each area. Barely a tenth of the army is considered loyal to the central authority. That a Basra police station should be vulnerable to al-Sadr irregulars is appalling.
The 150,000 foreign troops on Iraqi soil are overwhelmingly committed to self-protection. They do not do law and order any more. Power is finding its new locus, in the mafias, sheikhdoms, militias and warlords that flourish amid anarchy. Where there is no security, the gunman is always king.
The alleged reason for occupying Iraq was to build security and democracy. We have dismantled the first and failed to construct the second. Iraq is a fiasco without parallel in recent British policy. Now we are told that we must "stay the course" or worse will befall. This is code for ministers refusing to admit a mistake and hoping someone else will after they are gone. By then the Kurds will be more detached, the Sunnis more enraged and the Shias more fundamentalist. A hundred British soldiers will have died.
America left Vietnam and Lebanon to their fate. They survived. We left Aden and other colonies. Some, such as Malaya and Cyprus, saw bloodshed and partition. We said rightly that this was their business. So too is Iraq for the Iraqis. We have made enough mess there already.
“*Sidenote: Mon amis, please note, the majority of the Franco-bashing is coming from your cousins across the channel, not your step-children across the pond.” No problem my friend, my answer is coming. See below: :balloon2:
“best soldiers in the French Army are not French”: Wrong. The tradition wants the French become Foreigners but more than 60% of the Legionnaires are French. And the officers are French. That the proofs that under French Command and proper training, even English and US can be good soldiers… ~D
“a topic not even about France ends up bashing French people... now thats facinating.”. I was just waiting to see when it will happen… ~:cool:
“lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we”: You did try during 100 Years and lost the war, remember? ~D
“King of England” who needs to pay homage to France, because I mentioned above, the English lost the war. Ok, they lost the Duche de Normandie, so they are release from their duty… ~D
“Well I think france should go in! And train the Insurgents. the war will be over in weeks!” No need, the US don’t need help to be defeated, they are perfectly self sufficient. ~:cheers:
“that's the right way to fire an rpg” Pure legend, French haven’t RPG (that is Russian) but LRAC (89 mm). Only American can made a mistake in loading it. You put the arrow in front the arrow, turn a quarter, and that is ready. :book:
And didn’t exist in 1940…
“You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain” Do you? Because I think the French are quiet restrain in the topic. They could say: We told you… Where are the WMD, the birth of democracy? ~:confused:
“I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me” I agree with him. The French will stop the Americans to root like they did in Kaserine Pass (where the French hold the line aside with the British) and in the Ardennes (where the French stopped the German offensive toward StrasbourG)… ~D
Sorry US friends, but he deserved it… :bow:
And I like US. I went there and I loved it… I don’t like US politic, but as PzJg said, every country has the right to defend his own interest. I like the US citizens (well, I don’t know every body) but I don’t like what the US are doing… Because there is one question that YOU have to answer: How the most loved Country in the world after WW2 became one of the most hated one? Why the country which was symbol of freedom watches her flags burn in any demonstrations around the word? Well, change the world… ~:)
Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 21:52
You forget that the Marines have their own airwing. We dont need the navy to move us around. We also have Marine airbases. In my 4 years in the Marine airwing neither I nor anyone in any of my squadrons nor any aircraft from those squadrons served on a carrier.
So it would be an paratrooper operation?What i mean that in a scenario Marine Corps against British defence forces,you should first destroy The Royal Navy and RAF in order to get to Britain, dont mean to be disrespectfull but how were you plannig on to take out the RAF with your airwing.could turn out pretty nasty. ~;)
Adrian II
09-21-2005, 21:55
So it would be an paratrooper operation?What i mean that in a scenario Marine Corps against British defence forces,you should first destroy The Royal Navy and RAF in order to get to Britain, dont mean to be disrespectfull but how were you plannig on to take out the RAF with your airwing.could turn out pretty nasty. ~;)Lads, would you awfully mind opening your UK-US war room in another thread? It is rather off-topic.
Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 21:57
Lads, would you awfully mind opening your UK-US war room in another thread? It is rather off-topic.
Okay Adrian,i stop rambling about it. :oops:
Adrian II
09-21-2005, 21:58
Okay Adrian,i stop rambling about it. :oops:Pleas don't, it is fun. Just open a new thread.
:charge:
Meneldil
09-21-2005, 22:14
French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.
Yeah, I guess you know all what's being said in France very well. I mean, you visited France so many times, and with Fox spreading its 'balanced' news, you're probably aware of the most recent french issues.
Sarcasm off : Seriously, we have other issues to deal with than spending our time flaming USA, making fun of how they lost a war against a bunch of asian communists, got their ass kicked at Pearl Harbor, funded some bloody dictators in South America, etc. etc.
Oh and, btw, that was a joke. Hoho, haha.
As for the original topic, to which almost none answered, I think none should pull out now. You went there, and you stay until your job is done. If you pull out, I hardly see how the US would handle the already catastrophic situation.
Kagemusha
09-21-2005, 22:16
Pleas don't, it is fun. Just open a new thread.
:charge:
I think the battle is between the Brits and the Marines.As a Finn i think it s best to remain neutral in this matter. ~D
Now, I can do back to the topic.
I was horrified when I saw the British soldier escaping from his APC in flame…
Yes, the coalition forces must withdraw. When, how, that is the question.
The problem I see is that the US/UK coalition lost the initiative. They have the illusion of it, like the US in Vietnam where studies showed that more than 90% of the battles were started by VC and end by him. ~D
Last year, we heard than the US army will crush the Insurgent/terrorists strong hold of Falludjah. This year it is another town I forgot the name. Last year the puppet master was Syria, today it is Iran. Last year the terrorist were all foreigners and Sunnites, today there are Shiites… Enemies are just queuing. ~:confused:
So the US/UK has two options: To go with dignity (Kabul USSR withdrawal) with flags and parades, flowers and kisses followed by civil war. Advantage of this one, you don’t have to welcome refuges on your soil… ~D
To go with less dignity but faster (Saigon US kind of) watching the army and police you trained either dropping their weapons in the canal, selling them to the mafia or the insurgents or participating side by side with the insurgents of the pillaging of your embassy/ies, burning of documents and boat people (you have to welcome some as refugees, morally speaking)… ~D
The only hope is “showing who the boss is” option. It didn’t work in Vietnam, and apparently doesn’t work in Iraq. The Insurgents know they can’t defeat the US army, but they know elections are coming. And more time the foreign armies stay, more the populace will be tired. Accidents, incidents, misunderstanding and other problems will grow and all that will go for them. :help:
So, the answer is as soon as possible if you prefer the first option.
Just wait for the second.
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 22:47
I'm sure the French have a lot of nasty things to say in the local salon about America. But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book. If we want them to show us some respect, we should begin by treating them the way we'd like them to treat us.
Again, why are you concentrating on the french? Just about any nationality that has any sort of big presence on this forum gets bashed.. its just part of multinational conversation. I dont hear the French whining about it, because they know they do it themselves from time to time. They are big boys, they can take a french joke just as much as we can take an American joke.
How the most loved Country in the world after WW2 became one of the most hated one? Why the country which was symbol of freedom watches her flags burn in any demonstrations around the word? Well, change the world…
Jealousy.
Yeah, I guess you know all what's being said in France very well. I mean, you visited France so many times, and with Fox spreading its 'balanced' news, you're probably aware of the most recent french issues.
Yes, I have been to france more times than I would like.. and I talk with friends who live near the french border. You're not fooling anyone.. we both know you love to badmouth the USA, just like a lot of americans badmouth the french. ~;)
Example:
Seriously, we have other issues to deal with than spending our time flaming USA, making fun of how they lost a war against a bunch of asian communists, got their ass kicked at Pearl Harbor, funded some bloody dictators in South America, etc. etc.
See what the surrender monkey's say about America, Don? ~D
A general request: please do not engage in country bashing. It just causes offence and is against Org rules. People have been sent warnings about this in the past, but let's not impose on TosaInu's goodwill any more. ~:grouphug:
“the surrender monkey's”: You forgot cheese eater: My Grand Father was definitely one. Not a monkey and didn’t surrender. He probably killed more Germans than any US soldier. He was a partisan in the SNCF (French Railway) and blew up German trains. The 2 SS Das Reich loved people like him… ~D
“Jealousy”: Of what? ~:confused:
PsJg, you didn’t read what Melneldil wrote, did you? He said they have something else to do.
In Vietnam/Indochina, the French didn’t make a better job than US… DBP was a crushing defeat. The French got the Kabul version of withdrawal but still… :dizzy2:
And I don’t care about jokes. I care about insults, even if I know that insults dishonour only those who make them. ~D
PanzerJaeger
09-21-2005, 23:39
And I don’t care about jokes.
Exactly! Thats the point. The French, English, and Americans bicker amongst themselves but have the same interests at heart..
Franconicus
09-22-2005, 07:38
lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we :D
That's obvious! You are not Germans ~D
By the way, didn't the Germans kick the Brits out of France too? Wasn't a big deal.
Incongruous
09-22-2005, 08:47
Juat you wait already in top secret labs we have an army of tea drinking fanatics just waiting to conquer europe.
King Henry V
09-22-2005, 16:46
That's obvious! You are not Germans ~D
By the way, didn't the Germans kick the Brits out of France too? Wasn't a big deal.
Yes but we were outnumbered ten to one. Next time we should do it together. ~:grouphug:
“Yes but we were outnumbered ten to one. Next time we should do it together.” It was tried and it finished in Bouvines where the French defeat the Holly Roman Emporor and the English King (John Lackland, if I remember well). ~D
Should British Forces Pull out?
Yes. They can't stay there forever. All coalition troops need to withdraw at some point. The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
However bad (imo) the decision to invade was - that decision has been made and the Brits have to stick with it.
Sadly I can’t see a clean and peaceful way of pulling out. Pull out now and civil war will be the most likely result. Pull out later and more British and US lives will be lost and the British and US taxpayers will get fleeced even more.
It's an almighty balls-up.
But at some point the Iraqi people - will have to fight it out amongst themselves. Sadly that will probably lead to a huge war zone involving many of the neighbouring states. I see no future for Iraq as it looks on the map now. In 20 years time I see possibly three or four new states in place of those straight line borders on the map now. The human cost will be huge.
Sell your cars now and buy push-bikes is my advice. Oil prices are only going to go up.
King Ragnar
09-22-2005, 18:32
what i cant understand is why the hell to people car if a civil war breaks out the country is no where near us so it wotn really affect us.
what i cant understand is why the hell to people car if a civil war breaks out the country is no where near us so it wotn really affect us.
I think the civil war is inevitable as occupation can't last forever.
Why do people care?
The human cost - death and suffering.
Another reason to care is the resulting wave of refugees that will be seeking sanctuary somewhere.
Another reason to care is the impact on the region as a whole and the resulting rising oil price and the global instability that will result from that.
How do people not care about a civil war?
Adrian II
09-22-2005, 18:58
Pull out now and civil war will be the most likely result. Pull out later and more British and US lives will be lost and the British and US taxpayers will get fleeced even more.We might as well accept that there is a civil war going on, that the country is falling apart, and that foreign influences are taking over parts of it under the noses of the Coalition. Today I read the latest report from Anthony Cordesman, a respected CSIS-scholar whom I admire for his calm, well-reasoned analyses in which deep concern for democracy and political realism always compete in a very transparant fashion. Alas, this time round his conclusion is totally negative. And the report (dating from August 5) does not even take the recent security break-down in the South or the rapidly worsening strategic situation with Iran into account...
Iraq's Evolving Insurgency (http://www.csis.org/burke/050812_IraqiInsurgUpate.pdf)
Meneldil
09-22-2005, 19:09
Jealousy.
Probably one of the reason, but certainly not the only one.
Yes, I have been to france more times than I would like..
Well, next time, send me a PM and I'll offer you some drink once you land in France ~:grouphug:
and I talk with friends who live near the french border. You're not fooling anyone.. we both know you love to badmouth the USA, just like a lot of americans badmouth the french. ~;)
I'm not attempting to fool anyone. Sure, we *DO* badmouth the USA. But then, who doesn't ? I mean, I'm fairly sure way more than 50% of the world population don't like either your president or your country.
In France, we don't really like you for a lot of reasons, such as jealousy (as you stated. Many french still think their country could be a world power, while this is obviously not the case), or simply because our cultures are different (we are a rather leftist country, we usually dislike religion). In muslim countries, they dislike (or rather hate) the US, because you're seen as the infidel, the crusader, or whatever other crap like that.
As for myslef, I'm sad to say that the more I read this forum, the more I dislike the US. There are some american patrons whose posts are IMO actually quite interesting to read (I'm speaking about liberal & conservative posters), but they can't match with all the "muslims are all religious fanatics", "french are all cowards", "we should bomb them back to the neolithic" "socialist are traitors, they're screwing up our world" and all other hatred posts usually posted by some americans.
Furthermore, there's a lot of good reasons to badmouth the french (hell, I spend most of my time bitching at my country mates). But our military history is certainly not a valuable one.
Louis VI the Fat
09-22-2005, 19:51
My, I didn't visit this thread since the first few posts. Like Anglosaxon intelligence about Iraq in 2003, I never guessed it would turn into the violent quagmire it did.
Meneldil, Brenus, may I suggest you stop provoking the British? They're a bit sensitive about this whole Iraq disaster that they were lured into by Blair's 'weapons of mass deception, ready to fool Britain in 45 minutes'.
They already regret not having listened to French advice. No need to rub it in - they will not make that mistake twice. To make the joke they wish they would've come up with, and said with some healthy self-derision, trust on them not to forget about France now that they need some advice on how to pull out of a lost war.
~:grouphug:
“Like Anglosaxon intelligence about Iraq in 2003, I never guessed it would turn into the violent quagmire it did.” Unlike the Anglo-Saxon Intelligence Service you didn’t know that it isn’t the first time than England invaded Iraq. In 1942, I think, just before to attack the French in Syria, because regime change more favourable towards the Nazi, the English invaded Iraq. And the Iraqi army didn’t resist and immediately started a guerrilla. And the pamphlets distributed at this period were quiet word for word the one printed two years ago… ~D
And with the French experience in Algeria, you could have known that things are never simple, even when you win the military battle… :embarassed:
Now, it is time to draw the line. Nothing went like imagine (I can’t say planned). Iraq never officially surrenders and it not the unilateral declaration from G. W. Bush which change the fact that to make peace you need the agreement of both parts. I pass on the different blunders such disbanding the army without taking their weapons and the rush to secure the oil; all went wrong. :dizzy2:
Now, will the US and UK wait the bill to increase, in money and lives before to face the reality?
More they wait, more the insurgents are growing. Worst, the people (the Shiites) who welcome them are now turning against them.
Only the Kurds stay out of the conflict, keeping their forces to size Kirkuk and the oil fields when the civil war will start or develop without western intervention… I agree with AdrianII on that, the civil war is on.
So, the choices are limited: withdrawal with dignity or routing… If they go now, they will be able to pretend (even if the Constitution is a failure) that they brought democracy to Iraq and the Iraqi failed to develop and keep it. It will be morally better for them. I speak of the governments here… ~D
Goofball
09-22-2005, 22:14
Rant mode off. Now, on a lighter note, did anybody else read the title of this thread and have a Beevis & Butthead moment... "Heheheh, he said pullout... heheheheh". I was going to make some crack about "If they haven't brought protection with them, for the love of God, make sure to pull out". Sorry, sometimes certain expressions bring out the worst in me. :mask:
Heheheh, he said "crack"... heheheheh...
Tribesman
09-22-2005, 22:41
The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .
PanzerJaeger
09-22-2005, 22:47
I'm not attempting to fool anyone. Sure, we *DO* badmouth the USA. But then, who doesn't ? I mean, I'm fairly sure way more than 50% of the world population don't like either your president or your country.
In France, we don't really like you for a lot of reasons, such as jealousy (as you stated. Many french still think their country could be a world power, while this is obviously not the case), or simply because our cultures are different (we are a rather leftist country, we usually dislike religion). In muslim countries, they dislike (or rather hate) the US, because you're seen as the infidel, the crusader, or whatever other crap like that.
As for myslef, I'm sad to say that the more I read this forum, the more I dislike the US. There are some american patrons whose posts are IMO actually quite interesting to read (I'm speaking about liberal & conservative posters), but they can't match with all the "muslims are all religious fanatics", "french are all cowards", "we should bomb them back to the neolithic" "socialist are traitors, they're screwing up our world" and all other hatred posts usually posted by some americans.
Theres no need for French people to like America, or for Americans to like France. I personally dont like many american's obsession over being "liked". "Why arent we liked? What can we do to make them like us?" I say, who cares?
The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here.. ~;)
Don Corleone
09-22-2005, 23:24
I think there's a difference between having a sycophantic need to be liked and treating people with basic respect. Yes, we could all go around and stick our fingers in each others eyes, just to prove we're independent enough to do it. But where does that bring you? I try to treat even people I loathe with courtesy. Does that make me a suck-up? I don't say things that aren't true, such as "Boy, I really admire your work ethic" to the lazy bum I used to report to or "I'm so glad the French are there to back us up at every possible opportunity".
But a few things: 1) why dwell strictly on the negative? 2) you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar 3) I might need that person's assistance 4) acting disrespectfully is more of a reflection on you than the target. Yes, we all know, France is not in America's camp. And we're not in theirs. That doesn't mean we can't act decently towards each other and maybe even strike up a few friendships at the individual level. Sheesh.
Papewaio
09-23-2005, 00:22
The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here.. ~;)
One of the ladies here got fired yesterday.
The team she worked in this morning was ecstatic, she was rude, obnoxious, loud and could have been an extra for an orc in Lord of the Rings but she was too damn ugly.
However even though I clearly did not like her, I was polite and greeted her nicely. In fact it seemed to put her on the back foot that despite being rude, I was being polite.
====
As a team leader you find that you can manage people or lead them. Both methods work better with rewards and stick, but stick alone makes for a poor morale environment. Also to be a leader you have to be prepared to show that you will use the stick on yourself.
The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .
Ok. Let me rephrase that. The Brits could pull out without the Americans doing likewise but that would just create more of a problem (read bloody mess) than already exists.
What "we" (used loosely as I technically am a brit) could do is set a deadline to say we will leave at a certain point - this might actually galvanize the states into coming along with "us".
It might also help sooth anti brit sentiment in Iraq - bleed a bit of pressure off in the short term.
The big problem as I see it is the almost impossibility of coming up with a force to replace the coalition. A diverse bunch of "Iraqis" with the backbone necessary to hold the place together... can you see that happening?
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