Troop loyalty

[Shamus]

Playing as the Italians, another one of my Doge's has grown old and died. The last one had a lot of influence, and as such, the loyalty of my troops was quite high. The new one however has very little influence. Consequently, the loyalty of my troops also dropped. In fact in some areas the loyalty has dropped almost to the point of rebellion.

My question has two parts. Firstly, other than conquering new territories, is there a way to increase the influence of my leader? And, is there a way to ensure that the next guy in line to the throne isn't as useless as this one? I tried killing this useless king, but his heir was just as pathetic.

Secondly, other than having a leader with great influence, is there any way to increase troop loyalty?

[OlafTheBrave]

Completeing crusades will raise influence, however I have found teh easiest sure fire way to jack it up is to relieve seiged allies as each iege lifted is 1 point of influence. The builder line of V&Vs also increases loyalty I think, I know happiness and the first level can be got quickly even if you have to destroy some border forts and rebuild them.

[NodachiSam]

I think gaining alliances might increase loyalty but don't count on it. Other than winning battles and gaining lands, giving titles and marrying your daughters to generals increases their loyalty. Remember only the armies leader's loyalty counts.

[AntiochusIII]

If you turtle (which you probably do) then your best bet is to help a weak ally in a prolonged war against a mighty faction. Say, if Spain got beat up by Almohads (which is rare, or the other way around, which is more often) but still survive around and your fleet can reach their lands (or you share borders), ally with them and you can help them survive by relieving sieges after sieges on what few provinces they have left [for example: suppose the Spanish only survived in Leon, and it was attacked by Almohads, the king trapped in Leon castle. You can send in an army to save their sorry arses] which will earn you influence. And your troops gain valour and stars too. I did this in one of my Danish turtle GA campaigns and it work wonders for my bloodline. And the Almos kept out of France and superpower status too.

Building little things (some would even advocate deleting and rebuilding watchtowers/border forts) for your new king improves his builder rating, which helps loyalty.

Or crusade: a province, a piety for your king, and some influence. Or play a Muslim faction and spam Jihad. Lose a province and raise the hell. Similar effects but, well, I hope you know how Jihad works. Veeeerry cheesy (even capable of beating the Horde itself this way) but...

[Roark]

The best ways I can think of to quickly gain loyalty are:

- Crusades (via Influence)
- Building (via the "builder" line of virtues)
- Farming (via the "steward" line of virtues)

Conquering an enemy citadel and simply using it for building palaces (eg: Constable's/Marshall's palace etc) will get you some titles that improve general's loyalty, but this is a bit of a luxury. Most people just want to access new troop types if they are lucky enough to nab a big castle.

[lugh]

Farm your daughters out and redistribute titles if need be. Some factions have access to lots of command* titles, give these to your most loyal generals and get the bulf of your armies under their command. Crusades are an amazing boost, as are completing GA goals as far as I know, so completing all the crusade goals will give you brilliant heirs.
As already said, build, build, build, especially farming.


Similar effects but, well, I hope you know how Jihad works. Veeeerry cheesy (even capable of beating the Horde itself this way) but... I thought you can only Jihad against provinces you owned? I'm not sure what you mean?

[Knight Templar]

Completeing crusades will raise influence, however I have found teh easiest sure fire way to jack it up is to relieve seiged allies as each iege lifted is 1 point of influence.
On the other hand, betraying and attacking you allies decreases your influence.

[ToranagaSama]

Playing as the Italians, another one of my Doge's has grown old and died. The last one had a lot of influence, and as such, the loyalty of my troops was quite high. The new one however has very little influence. Consequently, the loyalty of my troops also dropped. In fact in some areas the loyalty has dropped almost to the point of rebellion.

My question has two parts. Firstly, other than conquering new territories, is there a way to increase the influence of my leader? And, is there a way to ensure that the next guy in line to the throne isn't as useless as this one? I tried killing this useless king, but his heir was just as pathetic.

Secondly, other than having a leader with great influence, is there any way to increase troop loyalty?

Well the first thing to understand is that Province Loyalty and the Loyalty of your Generals are two different things.

Each is heavily effected by your King's Influence.

In dealing with both, the best attitude is to be Pro-Active!

For example, marrying your Princesses to your Generals increases their Loyalty to you. So you can use your Princesses to spy, but when they reach the age of 28, you need to find a suitable General and marry them off to one.

Another example regarding Province Loyalty, is to build Churchers and Watch Towers, etc., each effect the loyalty of a province.

Additionally, Spy agents affect the Loyalty of a province. Place anywhere from one to a number of Spies into a Province in its loyalty will be effected positively. The more Spies the greater the effect. Though realize that 20 spies is over the top and total Cheese! I try to limit to using 4, the need for any more is a hint that one needs to learn to overall play better.

Also, Spies will alert you to when the General(s) in a particular province are becoming disloyal. This is a good reason to have at least one Spy per province.

Now, THE most important thing to comprehend is that you MUST garrison your provinces, which I'm sure you already know. The more units the greater the province loyalty. 200 is the highest and optimal numbr.

The thing to know is that if you manage to keep a province at the 200 level, LONG ENOUGH!, then that province will stay at that level, even as you remove the garrison. Of course your's King's Influence level will effect this.

The province could have been at 200 forever with just 2 units as garrison, but as the King dies and his heir as lower loyalty the province could drop substantially. The solution is to build a large garrison to bring the rating back to the 200 level and wait LONG ENOUGH before scaling back the garrision.

Winning battles is the fastest way to increase the King's loyalty, but the King's loyalty will increase otherwise, but at a much slower pace, as long as the King does all the *good* things a King should do.

"Happiness" and Loyalty are closely conneced, as a happy people are most loyal.

So, achieving milestones such as *Great Builder*, will increase your King's Happiness rating thereby forestalling disloyalty.

As far as the King's heir goes, if the King as good qualities, then the Heir will have good qualtifies, and vice versa. First, you need to keep your King from getting poor v&V; Second, once your King produces a Prince, heir or not, with good qualities, then you NEED to marrying him up as quickly as possible!!!!

The sooner he gets married the sooner he will begin producing sons of good quality. Later he may acquire poor qualities, but his *good* sons will already be born!


Manual, p.72

"Breeding: Good breeding, allegedly tells. But more important to a successful royal line is **fast** breading. Make sure your heirs are married!...."

Note that winning battles may do wonders to increase the King's Influence, but less toward improving poor V&V. To improve V&V you need to do all the little things, and the result will take time....

[Shamus]

Cheers for the replies. As luck would have it one of my allies just got attacked by a mutual enemy. As this province was bordering one of mine, I moved my army in and lifted the siege. With the immediate increase in influence came a healthy jump in loyalty from my generals. I noticed a 1-3 point jump in loyalty from those generals who seemed to be wavering in their support.

I checked and I do have the “Great Builder” virtue. All of my provinces are working on something every turn. I’m wondering though, does the builder virtue get affected just by the number of buildings erected, or also by the length of the build time? By this I mean, would it be more helpful to destroy and re-build towers again and again, or would building a citadel be just as effective?

I am sending out more crusades as recommended, but I was wondering, will my king get more influence if he is at the head of my army, or should I just keep him at home? Is there any advantage to having your king fight?

Thanks again for the great tips. ~:cheers:

[dgfred]

Great post Toranaga, good stuff to know ~:cheers: .

@Shamas, don't send your king, or should I say I rarely do. If something
happens and he is 'cut off' or defeated- your empire will suffer massive
rebellions and civil war. The negative of this far outweighs any positives of
him going on Crusade. Hope this helps some.

[AntiochusIII]

I thought you can only Jihad against provinces you owned? I'm not sure what you mean?I did say "lose a province and raise the hell", which indicates the need to lose a province. :bow: The cheesy anti-horde tactic is, of course, to take Khazar (and/or Volga Bulgaria and Georgia), pump out Jihads everywhere, and when the horde takes over Khazar, rally Jihads across the empire. Nothing survives that tactic.

[ajaxfetish]

Additionally, Spy agents affect the Loyalty of a province. Place anywhere from one to a number of Spies into a Province in its loyalty will be effected positively. The more Spies the greater the effect. Though realize that 20 spies is over the top and total Cheese! I try to limit to using 4, the need for any more is a hint that one needs to learn to overall play better.

Lot's of good information in your post, Toranaga Sama. However, I think I heard from someone that when you have multiple spies in a province, only the one with the highest valor is counted for loyalty influence, catching agents, etc. Could someone confirm or disprove this?

[AntiochusIII]

I’m wondering though, does the builder virtue get affected just by the number of buildings erected, or also by the length of the build time? By this I mean, would it be more helpful to destroy and re-build towers again and again, or would building a citadel be just as effective?Only building completion counts, not time. But I'd not suggest that tactic unless you are in a need of loyalty with less attractive alternatives. The builder virtue may be cool but the disrupted "agent defense" of the border forts, the money spent, and the lost time (short it may be) for your building plans may not be worth it in an already stable kingdom. All you need is a high-influence king in the middle of the empire (or the "capital", as I prefer.)

I am sending out more crusades as recommended, but I was wondering, will my king get more influence if he is at the head of my army, or should I just keep him at home? Is there any advantage to having your king fight?Of course, a king's fight will earn him traits, stars, et al. But kings crusading are bad ideas. They should be around where they won't be cut off from the rest of the empire. I advocate sending high-star generals to lead the crusade.

[tigger_on_vrb]

Lot's of good information in your post, Toranaga Sama. However, I think I heard from someone that when you have multiple spies in a province, only the one with the highest valor is counted for loyalty influence, catching agents, etc. Could someone confirm or disprove this?

In plain MTW all the spies counted, in VI only the highest valour spy is counted (certainly for inciting uprisings in other lands, not 100% sure about your own lands, but I think so)
I never use spies/assassins anymore, makes the game too easy.

[crpcarrot]

also getting you govenors the building or steward line of virtues gives additional loyalty. the loyalty only kicks in after the second step IIRC a magnificent builder gets +2 loyalty give your disloyal generals a province to govern and put some 1/2 year bulding in the queue.

[Ironside]

I can add that the quality of your hiers is directly linked to the influence of the king, when they come to age. More influence equals better hiers (that starts of with more influence too... :book: ). Killing off the occational poor hier is normal tactic to maintain a strong bloodline though.

And old troops got better loyalty than fresh troops, especially if the new troops are trianed under a king with weak influence.

[lugh]

I did say "lose a province and raise the hell", which indicates the need to lose a province. :bow: The cheesy anti-horde tactic is, of course, to take Khazar (and/or Volga Bulgaria and Georgia), pump out Jihads everywhere, and when the horde takes over Khazar, rally Jihads across the empire. Nothing survives that tactic.
Ah, I never thought of that. I usually concentrate on the Med if I'm Muslim, leave the steppes for the Mongols and Russians to fight over.

A good influence King will also yield better quality generals amongst his new recruits. 4* generals get to be pretty common if you have full influence on your king.

[Geezer57]

Raising a new King's influence (and thus your Generals' and province loyalty) is usually a long, drawn-out process. Should you discover your Generals are becoming disloyal, one tactic you can use hasn't been discussed here yet, which can give you the time needed to boost your rulers stats.
Take any high-command disloyal Generals and take them out of any troop stacks - leave them by themselves. Go through the stack and find a loyal unit, then place them at the top of the stack. Right-click the stack to make sure your loyal unit is in command. If you move the stack anywhere, check again - sometimes the game will shuffle the unit order in a moving stack, which can put a disloyal unit commander at the top.
As long as there's enough combat power in a loyal stack, your disloyal high-command Generals will never revolt against you. They'd be annihilated by the majority of loyal troops in the province.

[crpcarrot]

you could also try one of your low star disloyal generals for treason. sucsesfull trial is supposed to increase loyalty but a failed trial would work conversely and tip the balaces that could lead to civil war. i dont really use this tactic so dont really know if it effective. certialny a quick short term fix

[EatYerGreens]

And old troops got better loyalty than fresh troops, especially if the new troops are trianed under a king with weak influence.


It should be noted that newly recruited Mercenary units will almost always start off with loyalty at the bottom end of the scale. I think the messages about 'planning a coup' etc. were intended to be discovered by the player in a steady progression down the scale. Mercenaries upset this by allowing you to see the worst levels prematurely. I dare say some players might have got the wrong end of the stick and gone to the extent of sending assassins after their merc unit leaders.

It's a bad habit of mine to hire them, then forget to lay them off and keep them for years. I've found that their loyalty increases naturally over time, often ending up higher than some of my 'native' unit leaders!

One thing that really does work wonders is using them for their main purpose - send them into battle. Win or lose and no matter about heavy attrition in the unit, it does seem to boost loyalty considerably, even if my leader's influence rating is unchanged by the result.

A good point was made about only having to worry about stack-leader's loyalty rating. If it's two or three disloyal captains (unit leaders) but they're buried in a stack headed by a staunch loyalist, then you've little to worry about.

For those which remain stubbornly disloyal for years (some V&V's knock back loyalty by a few notches for instance), rather than risk a failed assassination, I would either disband the unit and build a replacement or, cheaper still, send them up to the front and make sure they're at the sharp end of the attack in the next battle. Trouble is, on the battle screen itself, you can't work out who is who unless there's unique attributes (type/valour/armour/weapon) on practically every unit.

[ajaxfetish]

And if there's a disloyal unit you can't disband (ie an heir) or don't want to (nice unit, plenty of stars, good vices/virtues, etc.) you always have the option to put him in your king's stack as well. No rebellion taking place there!

[ToranagaSama]

I can add that the quality of your hiers is directly linked to the influence of the king, when they come to age. More influence equals better hiers (that starts of with more influence too... :book: ).
And old troops got better loyalty than fresh troops, especially if the new troops are trianed under a king with weak influence.

True, high Influence will produce a *relatively* high influence heir, but the King's Influence level won't have an effect upon the heir's V&V.

The *trend* of the King's V&V WILL have a corresponding effect upon the Heir's V&V. Simply put a negative trend will produce a negatively *trended* Heir, as well as brother Princes, similarly, with negatively *trended* V&V.

Its to be noted that a negative v&v trend CAN be reversed. It's not simple to accomplish, but it can be done. The reversel will cause more positive v&v to be spawned; BUT, the existing negative v&v will remain.


...Killing off the occational poor hier is normal tactic to maintain a strong bloodline though.

Might be *normal*, and is probablly common, BUT its a CHEESY tactic.

Better to play the game through!!! Do what's needed to turn your poor Heir into a Great King. Admittedly, sometimes in the process, a poor Heir, will naturally do poorly, and manage to get his head chopped off! ~D

[ToranagaSama]

Raising a new King's influence (and thus your Generals' and province loyalty) is usually a long, drawn-out process. Should you discover your Generals are becoming disloyal, one tactic you can use hasn't been discussed here yet, which can give you the time needed to boost your rulers stats.
Take any high-command disloyal Generals and take them out of any troop stacks - leave them by themselves. Go through the stack and find a loyal unit, then place them at the top of the stack. Right-click the stack to make sure your loyal unit is in command. If you move the stack anywhere, check again - sometimes the game will shuffle the unit order in a moving stack, which can put a disloyal unit commander at the top.
As long as there's enough combat power in a loyal stack, your disloyal high-command Generals will never revolt against you. They'd be annihilated by the majority of loyal troops in the province.

Geezer is right on the money!

If you've got Generals and/or Princes, whom you suspect are disloyal, and a Rebellion or Civil War is likely, then remove these Generals/Princes from Command.

I recall a long time ago, I had such situation. I was playing the Danes. Don't remember all the specifics, but my GREAT! King was about to die and he did not produce any heirs until the VERY last possible moment. Consequenlty, his heir was to come of age, just a year or two before his death.

The former heir, the King's brother, as well as a couple of Princes, were Great Generals, the former heir having 6 Stars and a veteran of many battles. He also had some high level v&v won in battle. His brother were good generals too, with about 4 stars each.

I was sure these guys weren't going to just lay over for the baby prince!! I anticipated this, so I took Mr. High and Mighty and put him in the far most northern provice, forget the name, but it had very little income, few buildings, only a Fort, if I remember, and was worth nothing. Similarly, I dumped his brothers to the far corners of the empire...

I gave High Mighty virtually no troops, just a couple of peasant units, and the brothers were all alone facing stacks commanded by lesser, but loyal generals.

Lo and behold, the day came when my GREAT! King died, his Heir ascended. Young though he was, he had the genes of his father. Prince High & Mighty did, indeed, turn and Civil War ensured. Many peasants, the swine!, did join his side, but no nobles of worth, and he was crushed, fittingly, his was a glorious and noble death at the hand of the young King. The brother princes having been adeptly isolated, fell in line and became valued vassals of the new king. Govenors of small isolated provinces.

I do believe I wrote this up into a small story, that must be somewhere in the depths of the Org's archives....

[dgfred]

Dang, ~:eek: you guys are laying out some great information/tactics/strategies
today! ~:cheers:

[ToranagaSama]

Lot's of good information in your post, Toranaga Sama. However, I think I heard from someone that when you have multiple spies in a province, only the one with the highest valor is counted for loyalty influence, catching agents, etc. Could someone confirm or disprove this?

A little jumbled info.

If you have mutliple spys in a province, the one with the highest valour has the greatest ***chance*** of intercepting enemy agents.

Yet, that doesn't mean that the highest valour spy will be the one. He just has the highest odds. Any of the spys in the province could be the one to intercept an enemy agent.

The more spys located in a province the greater the effect upon the Loyalty of the province. It works just like with religious agents, the more Bishops, etc., you have in a province the faster the rate of religious conversion.

I do not know, and hadn't really thought about, whether a spy's valour might have an effect upon the *rate* of the Loyalty effect. Maybe, maybe not. If so, its must be slight. Then again, what *Tigger* said is mostly true. A high valour spy will have greater effect in enemy provinces. In that view, logic would dictate, the same be for the spy's *home* provinces too.

Experiment, experiment, experiment!


I checked and I do have the “Great Builder” virtue. All of my provinces are working on something every turn. I’m wondering though, does the builder virtue get affected just by the number of buildings erected, or also by the length of the build time?

No, the "length of the build time" has nothing to do with it.


By this I mean, would it be more helpful to destroy and re-build towers again and again....

No, this will have not effect. (and if it did, it would be HIGH cheese!)


, or would building a citadel be just as effective?

Building a Citadel would be effective, but the point and purpose is not to directly build up the biggest castle, but, simply, to *build*. Build prudent buildings.

The thing is, say, your a Warmongering type player (Rusher in other terms), then your aim is to build *just* the building necessary for you to have a good army; then, off you go, conquering provinces as quickly as possible. In the extreme view of this tactic, *Good Builder* isn't a concern. Such a player will simply garrison his provinces to the max, thereby causing loyalty to increase to the 200 level---this is the fastest and simplest way to beat the game.

The Caveate is that this type of player MUST continually fill his coffers in order to pay the Support cost for all those units!

On the other hand if you the type that is slower and more deliberate in your Campaigning (more historically minded, enjoy a more complex compaign, or just hate cheesy play) then you will build building beyond the minimal necessity.

In that view and being *pro-active*, you're going to look to build a Watchtower in each province (and upgrade it); build a Church in each province (upgrading isn't necessary, but it does increase loyalty); build a Militia building in each province, etc.

All of these add to a provinces Loyalty, AND will contribute to attaining *Great Builder* (which futher increases overall Loyalty). Also, jfyi, there is one, maybe two (I forget) levels above Great Builder (which futher increase overall Loyalty).

So, aiming *directly* to build a Citidel, simply for Loyalty purposes, isn't best use of money and time for that purpose. Other than for strict defensive purposes, you should upgrade your Castle(s) as a *path* to obtaining **necessary** upgrades to existing buildings.

The best way to improve your present Campaign, where you are having *Province* Loyalty issues----is to train enough units and place them in the troubled Province(s) to raise Province Loyalty to a minimum 150 level.

Then (simultaneously if you can), work on the suggestions above and in my previous post.

BTW, building Crusades simply to increae Loyalty, as well as taking Provinces **just** to increase Influence, is a Cheesy tactic! Focusing on such tactics WON'T aid one in developing the knowledge and skill level necessary to get to the point where Loyalty isn't an issue anymore in any campaign; and your Kings Influence will take care of itself as long as you do the *little* things.

Loyalty, Rebellions and what not, in Vanilla, haven't been an issue for me since the early days of MTW's release.

~ToranagaSama

[Geezer57]

The more spys located in a province the greater the effect upon the Loyalty of the province. It works just like with religious agents, the more Bishops, etc., you have in a province the faster the rate of religious conversion.
A small clarification on this one point: ToranagaSama's post contains lots of good info, and most everything is right on the money, except that with the VI expansion only the highest-valor spy in a province affected loyalty. Mass spy spams as per plain M-TW (w/out VI) no longer have the same effect. A greater number of spies still does increase your odds of intercepting an enemy agent. And keep in mind that if your highest-valor spy triggers a revolt, all the lower-valor spies also present in the province will gain valor also. So multiple agents, if you can afford them, are not always a waste.

[OlafTheBrave]

ToranagaSama, are you certain destroying and rebuilding BFs/WTs does not have any effect towards the builder line of V&V. I was under the impression it was merely the number of completed builds period. Without refference to having been previously built, build time, or level in the tech tree. Also the progression is Builder, Great Builder and Magnificent Builder. Which is a cheese tactic. I know when I have a new ruller on the throne I have concentrated a few provinces on shorter build time items to go ahead and fire off the Builder V&V.

[Ironside]

Might be *normal*, and is probablly common, BUT its a CHEESY tactic.

Better to play the game through!!! Do what's needed to turn your poor Heir into a Great King. Admittedly, sometimes in the process, a poor Heir, will naturally do poorly, and manage to get his head chopped off!

Well I kind of like my 8-star, 8 accuman generals ~D (the other stats isn't as important, but the dread is normally high, piety depends on faction).

And those sons do take provinces occationally ~;p

Besides those getting a lousy oldest son coming of age, the same turn as the king dies is annoyingly enough.

[Shamus]

I should clarify. When I was talking about loyalty dropping almost to the point of rebellion, I was referring only to the loyalty state of my generals. As far as my provinces were concerned, their loyalty levels were still all very high. Most were at 200%, and my lowest was only about 150% (I had taken that province a couple of turns before my post, and it only had two units in the garrison at the time).

Troop loyalty is back up though. Most of my generals are at full loyalty now thanks mainly to saving allies form encroaching enemies. :charge:

[Deus Ex]

I should clarify. When I was talking about loyalty dropping almost to the point of rebellion, I was referring only to the loyalty state of my generals. As far as my provinces were concerned, their loyalty levels were still all very high. Most were at 200%, and my lowest was only about 150% (I had taken that province a couple of turns before my post, and it only had two units in the garrison at the time).

Troop loyalty is back up though. Most of my generals are at full loyalty now thanks mainly to saving allies form encroaching enemies. :charge:

Hmmm - so here is a question, if your general has a very low loyalty - but all provinces are at 200%, then does it matter?

Does a province has to be low enough in loyalty before a revolt can happen?

Or is the general's loyalty considered alone, and enough to cause a revolt?

Could each trigger a relvolt independently?

Are both events required in order for a revolt to occur (low province loyalty AND low General loyalty in the same province??)

DE
(ok a couple questions)

[NodachiSam]

Low province loyalty can trigger a rebellion while general loyalty determines who they will side with in a civil war, also if you have tons of low loyalty generals a civil war might occur. If you get a rebellion/revolt your armies in the region will tend to be on your side regardless of their loyalty (as far as I can tell, please correct me if I'm wrong) If a general or governor has really low loyalty it doesn't affect the province loyalty.

~:cheers:

[ToranagaSama]

A small clarification on this one point: ToranagaSama's post contains lots of good info, and most everything is right on the money, except that with the VI expansion only the highest-valor spy in a province affected loyalty. Mass spy spams as per plain M-TW (w/out VI) no longer have the same effect. A greater number of spies still does increase your odds of intercepting an enemy agent. And keep in mind that if your highest-valor spy triggers a revolt, all the lower-valor spies also present in the province will gain valor also. So multiple agents, if you can afford them, are not always a waste.

This is not entirely correct.

Yes, CA did *modify* the code to TONE-DOWN "spy-flooding", BUT multiple Spys still have a *cumulative* effect, particularly upon Province Loyalty.

READ the Manual, p.39:

"...The higher the valour of your spy, the greater the chance of intercepting enemy agents."

It is pretty clear.

As sometimes happens in the Org, perhaps we're we having a language issue??

Regarding Province Loyalty specifically, the manual does not state, nor is it mentioned in the Readme(s) that a High Valour spy has a greater effect than a lower valour spy; BUT it would logically, as exampled in related circustances, appear that it *should*.

Nonetheless, in the case of multiple spies, the loyalty effect is NOT exclusive to the Highest Valour spy. The *cumulative* effect remains in place.

The 'toning-down' was a consequence of the Spy Flooding that occurred in STW---which was excessive. You could basically win a campaign, just by trotting around 20+ spies from province to province.


...all the lower-valor spies also present in the province will gain valor also....

I'm not sure about this, can't recall. Though, it would seem somewhat logical since ALL the spies played a part in forementing the rebellion.

---


ToranagaSama, are you certain destroying and rebuilding BFs/WTs does not have any effect towards the builder line of V&V. I was under the impression it was merely the number of completed builds period. Without refference to having been previously built, build time, or level in the tech tree. Also the progression is Builder, Great Builder and Magnificent Builder. Which is a cheese tactic. I know when I have a new ruller on the throne I have concentrated a few provinces on shorter build time items to go ahead and fire off the Builder V&V.

I am certain that the game was not intentionally coded to have such an effect. If it does its a QUIRK of the code. I've never tried the tactic, as I stopped using BF/WT a long time ago. I am reasonably certain that this is the FIRST time the Tactic has been discussed to any length. It is NOT in the Table of Contents (TOC) which I am in the process of reviving for the benefit of everyone old and new.

Build/Destroy/re-build is a cheese tactic.

Simply focusing upon gaining the virtue isn't cheesy, it can just be wasteful, if a player doesn't pay attention to the overall campaign. The *Virture" should come naturally as a consequence of prudent choices and prudent things necessary for a *Good* Campaign. Focusing on this, means your not focusing upon the overall *good* management of your empire.

If a player chooses to put his focus in this, go ahead, it'll just bite you later, either as a consequence of wasted Florins and/or wasted Turns. Of course, this is only the case if you play the game straight. Gotta Milliion Florins in the Bank, what does it matter?

There are more immediately effective ways to control your Province Loyalty.

That said, I do not know for certain, but in my experience, its the number of buildings---but, its also, the type and level of the buildings as well. For example, I'm not saying this is the case, but just as an example, you could build BFs, Churches, Militia, etc., in all your provinces, BUT if you all you have are Forts in all your provinces, I *suspect* you won't get the Builder virture.

Consequently, I *suspect*, that you NEED to build a Castle, and *some* of the consequent buiding *upgrades* to get Great Builder (or, however the sequence goes); and so on, and so on....

It's not just the *number*, but additionally *what* buildings you have. Now, what's the precise combination? Only CA knows for certain.

My advice is to *Campaign* and Build PRUDENTLY and WISELY and the virtues will come, and Loyalty will take care of itself as consequence of your wise management.

It works for me.

[Geezer57]

ToranagaSama, could it be that the publishers never bothered to update the manual, due to expense (and obsolescence of existing stocks of printed manuals), even though the game code was changed?

Also, see Motorhead's post dated 05/22/04 here (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=12997.topic&start=1&stop=20) over at the .com.
It's the next-to-last one on the page.

At any rate, we're quibbling over nothing, as we both agree that spies in VI are less all-powerful than in plain M-TW. And we both agree that it's a great game (maybe the greatest!), so let's keep enjoying! ~:)

[OlafTheBrave]

Based on my experiences it is merely the number of projects completed with the Builder virtue. If I recall correctly with the HRE just tossing up BFs in all 13 starting provinces is enough to trigger the first level. Also I am rather sure I have gotten Magnificent Builder on my first HRE ruler without castle or above level. I am certain I have gained Great Builder and that is deffinitly with nothing higher than keep. I certainly agree that destroying is a cheese tactic and a waste of money and time. For me if I want to aquire it to a new ruler in a developed empire I will forgoe some of the longer buildings in favor of some of the shorter projects that I intend to complete anyway, basically just shuffling my order about. For me my only concern over this would be for the bump to the loyalty of Generals since I keep enough garrisons and buildings to maintain province loyalty without any problems. Lastly I am using 1.1 so there possibly could be some changes in VI.

[ToranagaSama]

Possible, but I checked both the MTW and VI manuals, as well as the Readmes. The place to check for *undocumented* comments by the Devs is the Org and specifically the Table of Contents (TOC). I hope to have that revived and posted by next weekend.

I checked the .com post, but the poster gives NO reference except that of an Org member, Phatose. A search of "spies and phatose" produces nothing to substantiate:

Org Search (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/search.php?searchid=10388)

Maybe there's some reference in the Text files, I made a query to the .com thread. If someone here wants to check the Texts, please do this thread will be added to the TOC. Thanks.

---

Ok, took a little bit of effort, but I found the thread:

Spiess... (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=30845)

Here is Phatose's comments:


I've run some tests using VI 2.01, and have realized why you're seeing no rebellions. This is obviously true only for VI 2.01



In VI, normal difficulty, a spy affects loyalty by the following formula - 40% + 20% per valour. So, a 5 star spy will have a rather catastrophic -140% loyalty if placed in an enemy province. Or, he can give +140% to one of your troublesome provinces. But, and here's the big but

Loyalty is only affected by the highest valour spy in a province. Additional spies have no effect on loyalty whatsoever.

Which means that seven valour one spies are equal to one valour one spy, not a valour seven spy.


Which means that in your example, your valour 3 spy is producing a nice -100% loyalty which the enemy is counteracting with their own spies, taxes or units - and all the others are doing nothing at all. Might as well be picking their noses, they have absolutely zero effect. This is true in enemy provinces or your own.

Right now, I even suspect that only one spy can lower a provinces loyalty period, though I'm not 100% sure of that. I highly suspect that if you and another faction both have spies in a third faction's province, then only one of the two spies will lower loyalty.

Gonna conduct a few more tests tonight, but then I'm going back to system shock 2.

Phatose further comments:


Anyway, I'll now say I'm 100% sure that only one enemy spy affects loyalty in a province. If you've got a v1 spy in tolouse, and the english have v5 James Bond there, only Bond is going to affect French loyalty. I'm also 100% sure the formula 40% + 20%/valour is true for all difficulty levels.

I'll also bet that only the highest valour spy counts for counterspying and catching enemy agents - but to be blunt, even v4 superspies make very poor police officers. Border forts are the primary determinant of internal security. (and if you don't believe that, mod the game so that everyone can build bawdyhouses with no requisities, but border forts take 1000 years to build. Watch as spies and assasins never ever get caught).

My obvious recommendation would be that if you intend to use spies to start rebellions, or even to effectively control loyalty, you should build to bawdyhouses ASAP and provide your spies a steady stream of disloyal mercs or bribed rebels to practice their framing talents on.

Also note that the computer will respond to your spies lowering it's loyalty by bringing in their own.




All of the above is for VI only though.

[Emphasis Added.]

Everyone should read the thread, as therother makes some comments, to big to cut and paste over, relevent to the testing methods. Somewhat implying that there may be consequences and elements not accounted for in the testing.

Geezer is quite right, Phatose is onto something, but whether he is 100% correct, I'll have to test for myself.

Phatose closes with these final remarks:


Hm. Interesting, I hadn't actually considered that making them visible could have changed more then I bargained for. A reasonable question. I can't tell whether or not border forts did anything or not, as I had suppressed them to minimize how much I had to check to see effects. And yes, visible spies could be targeted by assasins.

I suppose I'll have to do more spy testing. Shouldn't be too hard to notice even without visible spies - unexplained 100% loyalty boosts are usually pretty hard to miss.

To my mind the question remains, is it that ONLY the high valour Spy is being effective, or is that the AI is counter to the extent that it ONLY *seems* like its only the high valour spy being effective?

I will say that in my recent Campign, I vaguely noted some anormal spy result, BUT, I wasn't pay to close attention, and chalked it up to something *new* regarding the MMv4beta, and pushed to the back of my mind. I'll query Wes and check it out for myself, but first I've got to finish the TOC!!

[crpcarrot]

its at times like this that u wish the motor was still posting.

@ToranagaSama

i think if motorhead supports the theory it will most probably be correct. i havent been around much at the org but at .com motorhead was a wealth of information on TW stats. and he didn't uaually get it wrong.

[ToranagaSama]

OK, while working on the TOC, I skimmed this old thread:Spies in MTW 1.1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=14794&highlight=Spies)

Confirms that multiple spires do not have a cumulative effect in causing rebellions.

Stands to reason that given multiple spys in a province, then it would only be sensical for the highest valour spy to have precdence. Geezer by way of Phatose is correct.

:bow:


Also a bit of comment re using Spys to put Generals with bad traits on Trial.