My Prediction on Hurricane Rita

[Don Corleone]

No matter how it goes, Bush is going to come out as an even more vile scoundrel then ever...

Things go well: The angry Left will chime in with "Of course, Texas is a Republican state. He only takes care of his own."

Things don't go well: "See, the dumb Texan can't learn. Three weeks later and he's as dumb as ever".

So tell me, all of you who have been calling for his head on a pike.... what can/should the president do? A nice bottle of chianti, then retire to the White House bathtub with a straight razor? Some hemlock tea perhaps?

[Steppe Merc]

I'm just hoping that Bush does do well, and takes inevitable critcism to save more people rather than do nothing.
I just can't believe that another nasty hurricane is coming in so close. I know it's probably just luck, but the past year has not been good when it comes to natrual disasters.

[Strike For The South]

or look at all the white people he saved see bush is a racist :embarassed:

but seriously lets ride this out and pray

[Ianofsmeg16]

I think those that criticise instead of offereing help, are the evil ones.

My honest opinion

[Proletariat]

I'm gonna start now to figure out how Nagin and/or Newsweek are involved with the inevitable debacle.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So tell me, all of you who have been calling for his head on a pike.... what can/should the president do? A nice bottle of chianti, then retire to the White House bathtub with a straight razor? Some hemlock tea perhaps?

The Don:

Be fair, they would gladly settle for the resignation of 6 Republican Senators from states with Democrat governors, followed 48 hours later by the simultaneous resignations or refusal to accept the oath by Bush, Cheney and Hastert. THEN we'd see some amazing (literally) leadership in action. ~D

Seamus

[Don Corleone]

Psst, did anybody happen to get the references of where the 2 suicide methods I came up with come from? I'll give you a hint, the Japanese aren't the only culture with the concept of Sepuku (ritual suicide to regain one's lost honor).

[Adrian II]

I'm gonna start now to figure out how Nagin and/or Newsweek are involved with the inevitable debacle.I'll start on the French, after all they get the blame for everything in the U.S. these days. Any stalled Peugeots blocking the I-45 yet, Red Harvest?
:coffeenews:

[Don Corleone]

No need to bring the French into all this, unless we want to blame them for establishing New Orleans in the first place. I've got plenty of domestic targets to keep an eye on. I can just picture John Kerry and Ted Kennedy walking around with two speeches, one in each pocket...

"The American people deserve a president that will protect all the people, not just the people that serve his political cronies" (if things go well in Houston)

"It is clear that the president lacks even the most basic common sense, and for the lives of the rest of her citizens, America must impeach President Bush" (if the slightest thing goes wrong).

All kidding aside, Adrian, do YOU see a positive that the president could accomplish at this point, given the political climate in America these days?

[Adrian II]

All kidding aside, Adrian, do YOU see a positive that the president could accomplish at this point, given the political climate in America these days?All kidding aside, do you want me to pity the guys who are in power, who have the presidency, the majority in both houses, in the gubernatorial seats and soon in the Supreme Court as well? Hey, I am not even an American.

I do believe however that you are mistaken if you blame the 'left' for the criticism. Your media for instance are players in a free market -- from the NYT all the way to Fox or CBS they only exist because people buy them, read them, watch them, listen to them. That is capitalism in action, Don. And if you ask me, so-called middle America is beginning to be seriously dissatisfied with this President and that is a bad omen for him and his party.

But hey, I am not even..

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yeah Adrian, a bigger slice of the electorate is annoyed at him more than ever before. Most folks don't blame Bush exclusively mind you, he's just the top name in a list of squabbling bureacrats who couldn't get their "stuff" together in a moment of crisis. I suspect he'll take a bit of a lasting political hit from this -- some of his power to make things happen (at least domestically) will be eroded. I wouldn't volunteer to chair the re-election campaigns for NO's mayor or LA's governor either. Bush will catch some flack for the traffic snarls heading out of Houston too. Not rational, I admit, but that's the down side of being the top name.

I wish you luck with your "blame the French" project. There is no logical connnection whatsoever, of course, but don't let that stop you. If you can pull it off without any support whatsoever, your resume as a political operative is set.

The Don: Roman and Greek, of course. Americans threaten a cop with a gun and let the cops finish it -- can often result in a windfall for the family with lawsuit settlements and doesn't require premiums like whole life insurance.

Seamus

[Don Corleone]

Oy,you're missing my point. I'm not looking for anybody's pity. My point is, all these people lining up with a big pile of rocks to throw at the president... what would they have him do? They keep claiming they're not obstructionist, that they're not partisan.... well, prove it! Offer some suggestions. But nope, just which angle can we take to slam the president one more time is about the only thought they seem capable of these days.

Things were bad under Clinton, but nowhere near this bad. I don't remember Republican Senators coming on television after Hurricane Floyd and saying "Perhaps if the president would stop playing with his interns, those people in the Outer Banks of North Carolina would still be alive".

I am not thrilled with the president right now. A lot of people aren't. But that doesn't mean that I see a category 5 hurricane and begin rubbing my hands together with glee thinking "Oh goody, one more chance to get him".

As for the American press playing in a free market, that's true and it's not true. They tell the story they want to tell, and then they sell the story they told. I don't think they invent things, but all of them, Fox News, the New York Times, all of them, are in the business of embellishing to amplify sales and editorializing. Journalistic integrity in America hasn't been here in my lifetime. The press decided they wanted America to be losing in Vietnam, and poof, overnight we were, even though militarily, Tet was a disaster for the NVA. Ever since then, the media has truly been a 4th estate, and they care nothing for the health and welfare for the other 3. I'm not impugning all journalists, I'm saying that's the net affect, that's what media companies have come to. We can all whine about Rupert Murdoch all we want, he's just the only one who's honest about it (and supports right wing causes, booo!)

[dgfred]

I for one have not lost any faith in Bush or his administration ~;) , mainly due
to knowing that nobody else would have done any better. I also think with
better leadership in the New Orleans area, things would not have been so
tragic. Although the republicans have taken some pretty big hits lately, the
democrats are already showing that they have nothing better to offer as far
as candidates/decision makers/leaders and the republicans can always rebound from this bad spell in time for the next elections (or I hope they will).

[Sjakihata]

I for one have not lost any faith in Bush or his administration , mainly due
to knowing that nobody else would have done any better.

So you are saying that every available american politician would have appointed an organizer of horse shows as the top in FEMA?

That is indeed bad news for america.

[Adrian II]

Things were bad under Clinton, but nowhere near this bad. I don't remember Republican Senators coming on television after Hurricane Floyd and saying "Perhaps if the president would stop playing with his interns, those people in the Outer Banks of North Carolina would still be alive".Probably because Clinton handled it better and because he had a better FEMA-director.
As for the American press playing in a free market, that's true and it's not true. They tell the story they want to tell, and then they sell the story they told. I don't think they invent things, but all of them, Fox News, the New York Times, all of them, are in the business of embellishing to amplify sales and editorializing.What is wrong about buying and selling news? I don't get it. Nobody forces people at gunpoint to watch this, read that, swallow all sorts of nonsense. As for your Vietnam analogy, I think one important parallel with that war is that the present war is going to be lost as well and that 'the media' are already set up as the fall guys, just as they were back then. But you forget one thing: in the end, it is the American public that judges both the media and the President.

[dgfred]

So you are saying that every available american politician would have appointed an organizer of horse shows as the top in FEMA?

That is indeed bad news for america.

No, but was he the only person making decisions for FEMA? What do you
suggest could have been done different? Surely he wasn't a great choice
for the job, but other factors contributed to the mismanagement of the
situation- such as the gov and the mayor and previous bad decisions in
New Orleans.

As for bad news for america: don't worry about us, we will come out all right.

[Don Corleone]

Well, if I contradict you, you're going to think I'm bashing Clinton. In reality, I'm probably one of the few right-wingers who thought he did a decent enough job on most issues (letting Osama bin Laden go free deserves some pause for reflection). But actually, no, for it's size and impacted area, Hurricane Floyd was a bigger mess, because FEMA didn't show up for weeks, in some parts of North Carolina, they had hog waste laying around for months. It was a tough time.

My point is things were partisan back then, but it seems every big election, the partisanship gets worse and worse. We now have people actively hoping that the country gets another 9/11, just so they can say "see, the Republicans CAN'T keep you safe" and, for that matter, we have Republicans falling back on that good old boogeyman, the porn industry, as the number three concern for the justice department. Yeah, things are definitely not working properly over here.

This was the point of my post. I know I'm not saying anything new... but when you were in college, did you ever wake up, look around at your room and say to yourself "Man! This place is a pigsty. How did I let it get this bad?" I'm having one of those moments. I know it's been building for decades, but when people are glad a category 5 hurricane is going to go kill a bunch of people, something is seriously wrong.

[Sjakihata]

No, but was he the only person making decisions for FEMA?


Of course not, he just took the important ones, that's why he got the blame, along with the president. When something messes up, the leader gets the blame. That's chain of command for you.

[BDC]

However much I dislike Bush, even I have to admit that he can't actually alter the weather. Officially anyway.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Psst, did anybody happen to get the references of where the 2 suicide methods I came up with come from? I'll give you a hint, the Japanese aren't the only culture with the concept of Sepuku (ritual suicide to regain one's lost honor).

Did someone mention Seppuku?

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/rup/frisbee2.JPG

[dgfred]

Of course not, he just took the important ones, that's why he got the blame, along with the president. When something messes up, the leader gets the blame. That's chain of command for you.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, but the 'chain' started in New Orleans and La. with their elected leadership. Start the blame game there, they
were the ones messing up.

[Proletariat]

I wish you luck with your "blame the French" project. There is no logical connnection whatsoever, of course, but don't let that stop you. If you can pull it off without any support whatsoever, your resume as a political operative is set.


Paging Seamus' Sense of Humor. Sense of Humor to the front gate. /PA system

[Adrian II]

Hey guys, anybody here who can break wind and speak French at the same time?
:smartass2:

[Red Harvest]

I can see one major difference between Katrina and Rita already. The people who had transport and wanted to leave, *could* leave with Katrina. That ain't happening with Rita. You should see the local stations, they are showing that EVERYTHING is backed up. The window for evacuation is just about gone, because there is not enough time to get through the jams out of Houston. Even if you do, you will most likely run out of fuel.

The plan isn't working. They got everyone on the roads, but they were not prepared to deal with the result. No fuel, and inadequate foresight of how to control the "downrange" traffic issues to let the city clear.

So what this shows me is that the problem is too big for the locals to handle. It is far beyond their control. The mayor of Houston (or New Orleans) can't control things outside his city, but those things are important to making recommendations. This takes considerable coordination (and *foresight* at the state level) to prevent traffic from bogging down.

The other side of the Houston problem is that the failure to provide relief in a timely fashion with Katrina meant than many folks farther inland also tried to flee (and were in some respects encouraged to.) One failure is exacerbating another.

I just got a call from the mayor's office while typing this message saying I was in a surge zone (technically, I'm not, but I'm adjacent to one on the other side of the beltway, and this area will probably flood from rain.) It tells me I should evacuate immediately and prepare for a long wait, etc. No, duh? Can he assure me that a long wait won't result in my family being stranded in a worse position than we're in? No, he can't. So far, nothing he has promised has panned out, and we've lost a day as a result, burning one of our two vehicles effective escape fuel supply. There isn't much time for deciding whether or not to flee, and wasting my remaining fuel on "wishful thinking" is decidedly unattractive.

[Goofball]

So tell me, all of you who have been calling for his head on a pike.... what can/should the president do? A nice bottle of chianti, then retire to the White House bathtub with a straight razor? Some hemlock tea perhaps?

Hemlock tea with chianti? No, no, no, and no.

Evereybody knows that a nice bottle of chianti is best complimented with sautéed human liver and some nice fava beans...

*slurping noises*

[Sjakihata]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, but the 'chain' started in New Orleans and La. with their elected leadership. Start the blame game there, they
were the ones messing up.

I disagree. I think the responsibility lies at the man in power, not those in the field.

[dgfred]

@ Sjakihata- No problem with disagreement, we just don't see it the same
way and I can leave it at that.


@ Red Harvest- ~:eek: I'm sure you will make a good decision, I wish you
and your family good luck and safety.

[econ21]

This was the point of my post. I know I'm not saying anything new... but when you were in college, did you ever wake up, look around at your room and say to yourself "Man! This place is a pigsty. How did I let it get this bad?" I'm having one of those moments. I know it's been building for decades, but when people are glad a category 5 hurricane is going to go kill a bunch of people, something is seriously wrong.

No offence, Don, but if part of the problem you identify is the partisanship of American politics, your first post in this thread gave me "one of those moments". Even before Rita makes landfall, your first post invites it to be turned into a Republican vs Democract, conservative vs liberal battleground. It risks turning a moment for one of these ~:grouphug: into one for this :duel:. I am not criticising you personally, Don, it's just that I found posting this thread ironically symptomatic of the problem of polarisation which you protest against.

I may be out of touch, speaking from a distance, but I don't see any Americans being glad about the hurricane. Yes, opposition politicians and the media will try to blame incumbents for any cock-ups, natural or man-made. And yes, this might be opportunist and they may well not have done any better themselves. But may be in a democracy, that sniping serves a function. It creates the political pressure to come up with solutions. The opposition's job is to oppose. The press's job is to dig up dirt. You have to trust to the people to sort the wheat from the chaff.

To answer your narrower question, I agree with you - I don't think Bush can do much at this point. But then I don't blame him for the failures immediately before Katrina. I do put some blame on him for not doing more to establish a unified (& federal) chain of command and stimulate an effective response in the week after Katrina. However, I also appreciate that he was very constrained by the systems in place and it would have taken an exceptional politician to override those. I am not sure Clinton would have done it - he might possibly have done so, although if not he'd certainly have given a very good impression of doing so. ~D In fact, I can't think of a contemporary politician who could be relied upon to have cut the gordian knot. Mrs Thatcher in her prime might have had the energy, impatience and determination to have banged the necessary heads together but she was from a different political system and one of a kind.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Paging Seamus' Sense of Humor. Sense of Humor to the front gate. /PA system

Bless you Prole'! I can assure you that my advice to Addy was meant with sarcastic jest. My sense of humor has never left the building. If there is anything funnier than politics, I have yet to discover it.

Seamus

[Don Corleone]

Simon,

No offense taken at all. You're absolutely right. I'm as good a witness of the problems I'm talking about as I can find. I'm not as partisan as some, but enough. What's more, I know better. I can see the other side many times. Many on both sides truly believe their side is right and the other is baneful, and they attribute all sorts of malevolent intent to the other. I don't, but I have come to expect a certain "I'll get you, my pretty" attitude from the leaders of the other side.

Do Tom DeLay and the other hard hitters on my side play the same games? Sure. But when I say 'angry Left', I'm not talking about Jag or Adrian. I'm talking about Michael Moore, or his poor deluded mouthpiece Cindy Sheehan. I'm talking about Ted Kennedy. I'm out of full partisan mode here today, and honestly, I really DO believe they're hoping that Rita is a whopper so they can make some more hay. Sadly, I can't honestly say if the shoe was on the other foot, Rush Limbaugh, Tom Delay and Anne Coulter wouldn't be playing the same parlor tricks.

Like I said in my analogy, one day you wake up and realize you've made a pigsty. I own my portion of all this. I just think it's time to lay all that down. We're starting to get too close to brinksmanship here.

You raise an interesting bit there, with the idea that the opposition always being there to nip your heels truly does make you step carefully. And invoking the Iron Maiden herself will always endear you to me. I think Ronnie would have done much the same thing. But he had the simultaneous swagger and the trust to pull it off. We knew Reagan didn't always play by the rules, but we trusted him to bend a few, cause we knew he was moving in roughly the right direction and maybe we couldn't see the whole picture clearly enough.

In any case, good luck Red & all others in Rita's path. May God protect you and give you the strength for all that comes.