Where did women's waists go?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sorry, yet another cut and paste. You can just read the bolded sentences to get the gist.
The catwalks are suddenly full of 'traditional' womanly shapes, complete with nipped-in waists. In the real world, women are losing their curves and looking more like men. What's going on, asks Mimi Spencer

Wednesday September 21, 2005
The Guardian


If the shopping gene in you is searching for the defining vision of this autumn's dressing, look no further than the model Carmen Kass on the catwalk at Roland Mouret's autumn/winter collection in Paris. She wore a petrol-blue, wasp-waist outfit so pneumatic, so curvaceous, so goddamn hot that women (and, I fully expect, a few men) fell for it in droves. You could almost hear the purr as she walked the runway. That figure! That waist!

Waist? Surely you recall? It's the place where we used to keep our belts, before our pants went south and our bum cracks took up residence in the public eye. The waist, it turns out, is this year's headline fashion story.

Lovely. Except, of course, that none of us can wear it. The waist, you see, is dead. It has been excised by excess. By fortune and feasting and that churning feeling you get in your stomach when you're late for a meeting, of which more later. In the course of little more than a generation, a celebrated body part, long cherished as the very expression of femininity, has all but vanished for a vast swathe of the population. If it had happened to your nose or your nipples, you'd have something to say about it. But the waist has disappeared while our backs were turned and our attention was concentrated, as it has been for nigh on a decade, at the hip. It expired inexorably, with little eulogy, like the polar ice caps.

In 1951, the average British woman had a 27.5-inch waist. Now, she boasts a 34-incher. That's a growth of more than an inch a decade. Even Playboy centrefolds, academic studies show, have displayed increased waist sizes over time. In some respects, of course, the statistics aren't so surprising. After all, 38% of British women are now classified as overweight, and one in five of us is obese. But this collective massive weight gain hasn't just made us fatter - it has changed the very shape of women. We are, it seems, increasingly built like men.

"Women resemble men much more so than they did in the 50s," confirms Jeni Bougourd, senior research fellow at the London College of Fashion, who collaborated last year on a project called Size UK to assess the dimensions of the nation. "While we are bigger overall, the waist has grown more in proportion. During this period, the waist-hip ratio has gone from 0.7 to more than 0.8. Modern women are much straighter now."

We are blockier, too, and stronger, chunkier; more Yorkie man than Flake girl. While men's waist sizes have also increased over the same period (to an average of 37 inches today), their fat distribution - the classic apple shape - has remained broadly constant. It is women whose proportions have changed.

"It was the emphasis on breasts and hips, which contrasted with the wasp waist; this underscored the idea of separate spheres, with men's and women's bodies looking so different." says Becky Conekin, historian at the London College of Fashion.

As our female icons turn into Barbie, we're all turning into Bob the Builder.

Quite why we're growing at such a rate may seem obvious. We eat too much. But it's not just about quantity. The way we eat, and what we eat, has altered radically over the past half-century. As Emma Stiles, nutritional scientist at the University of Westminster, says, "The waist-hip ratio has changed over the past 100 years because of a change in the macronutrients in our diet. Our intake of carbohydrates and sugars has grown rapidly, which increases insulin production. This in turn aids fat-cell deposits on the torso rather than anywhere else on the body."

So, we are increasingly a doughnut-based lifeform. And, the funny thing about doughnuts? They don't move very fast. "In fact," says Dr Joanne Lunn, nutrition scientist at the British Nutrition Foundation, "our energy intake is falling, contrary to what you might think. But what is falling faster is our activity level. Our working environments are more sedentary and these days most people have to make a concerted effort to do any exercise at all."

But it's not just overindulgence that has laid waste to the waist. It's stress.

In a study of 60 women, researchers at Yale University found evidence that abdominal fat develops when a person is under long-term stress, thanks to the release of a hormone called cortisol. "There's good evidence to suggest that cortisol activates an enzyme that promotes fat storage in fat cells (adipocytes)," explains Lunn. "The number of receptors for cortisol are greater in intra-abdominal adipocytes, so the accumulation of fat at this site will be accentuated when levels of cortisol are high."

In other words, stress turns women into apples, just like men. It also, adds Stiles, "increases insulin and decreases female hormones". Generally speaking, the less oestrogen circulating in a woman's blood, the thicker her waist is likely to be (which is why postmenopausal women may experience "middle-age spread", even though their weight remains stable). Oh, and to top it all like whipped cream on a sundae, stress can also lead to comfort eating - that rather more obvious and prosaic way of putting on weight.

As a result of our new blocky, blokey shape, we are fast taking on a male risk profile. In observational studies, women with a waist of more than 34 inches are at greater risk of all sorts of conditions - coronary heart disease, type two diabetes, strokes and something phenomenally frightening called "all-cause mortality". Today's average American woman has a waist measurement of 35.5.

How, then, are designers selling the waist today, to a generation who don't own one? Roland Mouret's Galaxy dresses are underpinned by a canvas, boned "waist restrainer", with a metal-toothed zip up the back for support. Mouret maintains that wearing a waist restrainer is "no more uncomfortable than wearing a pair of high heels ... You really have to wear this look to understand just how feminine it makes you feel. The women in my team tell me that it is incredibly empowering to wear this shape. This is our bestseller this season; the Galaxy dress from the show sold out before it delivered."

Empowering? Or demeaning? Like it or loathe it, "restraint" is a hot word in fashion right now. "Link to unabridged article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1574583,00.html)

I was quite fascinated by this when I read it this morning. In short, having lifestyles that are more similar than fifty years ago is also physically altering men and women. Their appearances more closely resemble each other than they did before. Nonetheless, this autumn's fashion emphasizes a more traditional feminine look.

Three thoughts:
-Men and women resememble each other more than fifty years ago not only in lifestyle but also in physical appearance. I applaud this.
-The fashion industry persists in an unattainable ideal for women. I deplore this.
-I actually like a feminine waist. It is sexy in a, well, feminine way. I regret it's disappearance.

Unfortunately, the third and the first are mutually exclusive, and lead to the second.

Now, a site where the only mutual interest of patrons is a love for wargames may be just about the most unlikely place on earth for a discussion about femininity, fashion and gender issues. But I'm just curious what you lot think about this kind of subject. Life is not all about politics and war now, is it? ~;)

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Men and women resememble each other more than fifty years ago not only in lifestyle but also in physical appearance. I applaud this.

Why? It's none of my business if women want to look more like men, but I don't think it's attractive, and I certainly wouldn't say it's something to be celebrated.

As an aside-26" waist over here. Yeah baby.

[Beirut]

To quote my old man: "For a woman to be truly a woman, she must be truly round."

[Don Corleone]

I prefer buxom women. I really don't like the trend of the past 15 years of models looking like adolecent boys with breast implants (no hips, no curves). My ideal woman's body? Jennifer Connelly in the Dark City era. And then she had to go buy into the fashion craze and starve herself into a sticklike figure for A Beautiful Mind (*bleah*).

I don't know that women's waists need to be small necessarily, so much as their busts and hips are correspondingly larger as well. According to that article, sadly that's not the case. ~:mecry:

I'm still at work, at least for the next hour, so I can't post a picture, but if you really want to see my idea of feminine beauty (in form at least) go do a Google search on Bettie Page.

[Papewaio]

Three thoughts:
-Men and women resememble each other more than fifty years ago not only in lifestyle but also in physical appearance. I applaud this.
-The fashion industry persists in an unattainable ideal for women. I deplore this.
-I actually like a feminine waist. It is sexy in a, well, feminine way. I regret it's disappearance.

Unfortunately, the third and the first are mutually exclusive, and lead to the second.



Third and first are not mutually exclusive. If both males and females eat properly and exercise then they end up with healthy body shapes that reflect a higher sexual drive and fertility.

Sit around on your butt scoffing refined sugars and no surprise that you look like a Eunuch, as indeed your sexual drive is diminished and you are less fertile.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why? It's none of my business if women want to look more like men, but I don't think it's attractive, and I certainly wouldn't say it's something to be celebrated.Why? Because it allows men and women to live more equal lives. The more they resemble each other, the more equal they are. It enhaces the palet of options, of choices in life, for both.

But not at the sacrifice of femininity, though. Neither men nor women want that.

But that is precisely what has happened. Not only in their behaviour, but also in their psychological make-up. And now, it turns out, physically too. I knew about life expectancy creeping towards each other, but I never would've guessed in body-shape too...

[PanzerJaeger]

Some how this is the fault of the feminist movement!

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Why? Because it allows men and women to live more equal lives. The more they resemble each other, the more equal they are. It enhaces the palet of options, of choices in life, for both.

But not at the sacrifice of femininity, though. Neither men nor women want that.

But that is precisely what has happened. Not only in their behaviour, but also in their psychological make-up. And now, it turns out, physically too. I knew about life expectancy creeping towards each other, but I never would've guessed in body-shape too...

Two things-

One, how can we look similar without sacrificing femininity? Unless you want men to look like girls, which isn't any more desirable.

Two, surely this would require a society of complete androgyny, taken to it's conclusion?

[Kongamato]

surely this would require a society of complete androgyny, taken to it's conclusion?

Who here saw that episode of Star Trek:TNG?

[Spino]

What happened to western women's figures? It's alarmingly simple really...

First and foremost consider who runs the fashion industry. The fashion industry is run primarily by homosexual men who were raised in a culture that, for the most part, frees them from the burden of having to 'live a lie'. Since it is far more acceptable for western homosexuals to be openly gay these days they are therefore no longer restrained by societal conventions regarding what is acceptable and what is not. This newfound freedom has carried over into their work which means that those working in the fashion industry can design the kinds of clothes they would want to wear (if they could) as opposed to what the typical heterosexual female would wear. In order to make these clothes fit properly you need androgenous looking female models with less feminine figures; tall, broader shoulders, narrow hips, small breasts and an alarmingly lack of body fat. It sounds strange but keep in mind that many homosexual men have a subconscious love/hate relationship with the opposite sex; they love women because many wish they were born women and at the same time are mad as hell they're not!

Add to the mix the typically feminine obssession with being fashionable and considered universally attractive and you can see why so many women use these androgenous fashion models as role models for body types. Since the average western woman doesn't deem curvaceous cheesecake models and porno actresses as being acceptable role models they're really only left with the androgenous fashion models who grace practically every single page of every women's magazine in print.

Last but not least consider the aftershocks created by the more rabid element of the feminist movement. Even today this element firmly and foolishly believes that there are no intrinsic differences between men and women other than the fact that one supplies the seed and the other supplies the egg and bears the children. This element still has a strong voice in today's society, take note of the negative view still taken of women who forsake a career and opt for the role of 'homemaker' (a term recently coined no doubt to remove any negative connotations with a woman's traditional role in the household). The feminist movement has inadvertently created an environment where women are encouraged to act like, dress like and even resemble the opposite sex.

And American women wonder why American men fall head over heels for Latin and Asian women!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Two things-

One, how can we look similar without sacrificing femininity? Unless you want men to look like girls, which isn't any more desirable.

Two, surely this would require a society of complete androgyny, taken to it's conclusion?1) We could if we change our definition of what constitutes femininity. And if fashion trends change accordingly.

Eighty years ago, a short-haired woman wearing a pair of trousers could never have been considered sexy, feminine. I think none of you would complain if I googled up a few short-haired hotties in tight jeans right now....
Up until as close as thirthy years ago, what was considered more un-feminine than a strong-willed, independent career-woman?
Well they make any serious bloke drool nowadays.

Hence my objection to the current fashion trends. Fashion should be at the avant-garde of ideas and make women look good at the same time.

If women in the 1920's want the freedom of trousers, give them some models that accentuate those divine female buttocks. If they start having careers in the 1950's, give them a feminine yet serious piece of wardrobe, like the Chanel suit. Even the now derided shoulder pads of the eighties served this function.

At each step above women looked more masculine than before, while still remaining ultimately feminine. If they now discover that female bodies are becoming more masculine, they should find new ways inemphasising femininity. Rather than going in a reactionary direction.


Oh, and masculine ideals have changed over time too. Metrosexual anyone? David Beckham may have perfectly manicured hands, but he still makes an ungodly amount of money endorsing shaving gear for men. He's still a guy.

2) Yes, it would. We should move forward to a more androgenous look, while still retaining some ultimate femininity and masculinity.

[Louis VI the Fat]

There has been no (unsurpressed) feminist movement in Afghanistan.
There has been one in the west.

You take your pick...

[Don Corleone]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/lingerie17.jpg


^
|

Not masculine at all, and very independent....

~:cheers:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Why? It's none of my business if women want to look more like men, but I don't think it's attractive, and I certainly wouldn't say it's something to be celebrated.

As an aside-26" waist over here. Yeah baby.
40" waist. I win.

[Steppe Merc]

As an aside-26" waist over here. Yeah baby.
Hah, I've found a guy whose slimmer than me, though only by an inch or two. Although mabye American and English pants are different...

[Beirut]

Of course, you are all cordially invited to visit the The Babe Thread in The Frontroom to further your research on the subject and heighten your awareness for the facts as they are being discussed here.

The Frontroom - The Org's swimming pool. :sunny:

[Papewaio]

eeewww the pool is shallow,
warm and yellow! ~:eek:

[Beirut]

:bow: That's because you're in the wading pool with Babywaio.

[Papewaio]

Speaking of womens waists, here is my approval of them:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Papewaio/WasabiandPape.jpg

[Steppe Merc]

Eighty years ago, a short-haired woman wearing a pair of trousers could never have been considered sexy, feminine. I think none of you would complain if I googled up a few short-haired hotties in tight jeans right now....
I don't like short haired women. It's wrong for anyone to have short hair, especially women.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Speaking of womens waists, here is my approval of them:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Papewaio/WasabiandPape.jpg

My basic assessment hasn't changed.

You clearly won, while W'.......


~D Seamus

[bmolsson]

Does this development make us all more gay ???

[Papewaio]

You clearly won, while W'.......


Loves the fact that the biggest set of wheels I had was Rollarblades ~;)

[ICantSpellDawg]

i like curves if they arnt unruley

these days - girls either look like cute little boys or land-monsters
and when i see big girls i associate them with the smell of fish for some reason

il take my chances with the ones that look like cute little boys
at least i can carry those girls around

[Kagemusha]

Im drunk, but woman without good bottom is not a woman. :bow:

[Don Corleone]

Kagemusha, if you're still checking out women's butts, you cant' be all that far gone. All hail God's most glorious handiwork, the female posterior. ~:cheers: (I'm afraid I might be getting a little into my wine glass myself....)

[Reverend Joe]

I have a personal preference for the top (not the head- a little farther down... there you go) but I feel your pain. The waist (and what is around it) is still what makes a woman.

Oh, and Steppe- I have short hair. Very short hair. 3/8 of an inch, to be exact. But I am still a Hippie. :stare:

[Kagemusha]

Don nice to see you hear but im dead drunk. ~:cheers: Dont be scared if im joining your conservative club soon because last week i resigned my job and this week i have been doing job for our new firm.Strength and honour my friend. :bow:

[Strike For The South]

Does this development make us all more gay ???

http://humferier.free.fr/sac/8a.gif BRING CURVY WOMEN BACK I REFUSE TO BE GAY NO HAIRY ASS FOR ME THIS MUST NOT HAPPEN http://humferier.free.fr/sac/8a.gif

[English assassin]

when i see big girls i associate them with the smell of fish for some reason

??????????????

I was going to ask what happened to make this disasterous association in your mind and then I realised we really don't need to know.

When I see big girls I associate them with fun. (NB "Big" here is being used in the sense of women who actually look like women, not 24 stone gut buckets.) Anyway, on topic, if less waist is the price we pay for curves elsewhere rather than looking like some sticky super model, I say go for it. Plus they can't very well complain about your own tummy can they? ;-)

Incidentally, I know a joke about womens waists, which I think is just about clean enough for the Org.

Why is the space between a woman's breasts and her hips called the waist?

Because you could EASILY fit another pair of breasts in there...

[Idaho]

What happened to western women's figures? It's alarmingly simple really...

First and foremost consider who runs the fashion industry. The fashion industry is run primarily by homosexual men who were raised in a culture that, for the most part, frees them from the burden of having to 'live a lie'. Since it is far more acceptable for western homosexuals to be openly gay these days they are therefore no longer restrained by societal conventions regarding what is acceptable and what is not. This newfound freedom has carried over into their work which means that those working in the fashion industry can design the kinds of clothes they would want to wear (if they could) as opposed to what the typical heterosexual female would wear. In order to make these clothes fit properly you need androgenous looking female models with less feminine figures; tall, broader shoulders, narrow hips, small breasts and an alarmingly lack of body fat. It sounds strange but keep in mind that many homosexual men have a subconscious love/hate relationship with the opposite sex; they love women because many wish they were born women and at the same time are mad as hell they're not!

Add to the mix the typically feminine obssession with being fashionable and considered universally attractive and you can see why so many women use these androgenous fashion models as role models for body types. Since the average western woman doesn't deem curvaceous cheesecake models and porno actresses as being acceptable role models they're really only left with the androgenous fashion models who grace practically every single page of every women's magazine in print.

Last but not least consider the aftershocks created by the more rabid element of the feminist movement. Even today this element firmly and foolishly believes that there are no intrinsic differences between men and women other than the fact that one supplies the seed and the other supplies the egg and bears the children. This element still has a strong voice in today's society, take note of the negative view still taken of women who forsake a career and opt for the role of 'homemaker' (a term recently coined no doubt to remove any negative connotations with a woman's traditional role in the household). The feminist movement has inadvertently created an environment where women are encouraged to act like, dress like and even resemble the opposite sex.

And American women wonder why American men fall head over heels for Latin and Asian women!

Drivel from start to finish.

The whole thing is about nutrition and physical development. Culture is merely window dressing.

Asian women tend to have a far smaller waist to hip ratio than European women.

[Kraxis]

When peopl say big about a girl I can't help but think of a 190cm girl of a strong build... And then I go weak in the knees. Then of course I quickly realize that that was not the intention and I become disappointed.

Yes, I like tall girls a whole lot. But not tall sticks, nor bouldershaped ones.

My current GF is in fact quite small in size but she has perhaps a little too much softness in general, but her hind quarters are peerless... Well in any realistic regard. So me, I'm perfectly satisfied for I truly do like to check out women's moving parts when they walk.

It isa sad fact that women are becoming less feminine, but the girls who have yet to fall into that are not less feminine I think. They are lovely, and the past summer was very nice on my eyes. Though at times I wished that I had been blind as well.

[Adrian II]

Though at times I wished that I had been blind as well.Oh, I can't wait for the day when my old age has liberated me from certain urges and I can simply sit in a bar and read my newspaper without libidinal interference. Meantime, I try to *cough* make the best *cough* of a new generation of women who have cast off both the ridiculous classic pear shape and the reticence that came with the sexual superstitions of old. Maybe it is just me, but I hardly see any anorexic beanstalks of the kind that populate today's cat-walks. Nor do I notice any bloke-shaped women in real life, as opposed to some fashion adverts.
Transvestites if you ask me. ~:cool:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well, men are becoming more feminine too with all the contraceptive pills and hormone stuff we let out in the water we drink (example for reference: male fish living shortly below the places where we let out sewer water that has gone through mechanical, chemical and biological cleaning become female, and fish several kilometers below in the flow gets much more feminine characteristics too). That's what mankind gets back for using makeup, plastic surgery, diplomatic non-love based marriages, impossible-to-reach beauty ideals, bad food ideals and women being exposed to the same stress as men now that they have to work in industry too, and many other things.

@PanzerJaeger: Indeed. I'm wondering what those 19th century women who died for feminism thought - OMG the men get to work in dirty factories for starving salaries and get coal dust in their lungs, while we women can be at home cleaning the house and seeing after the children - OMG we're so oppressed! Now they get all the work they wanted, with the stress and suffering that comes with it...

[Adrian II]

(..) a discussion about femininity, fashion and gender issues.Right. On a related subject, I have just declared my kitchen a Green Zone where no unauthorised personnel (female), foodstuffs (things in cans), ingredients (things in boxes) and utensils (electrical appliances) may be introduced. Socialist I may be, but when it comes to culinary policy my position is slightly to the right of Vlad the Impaler.

The punishment for wanton behaviour such as 'fast cooking', touching a tomato with a steak knife or mixing ingredients by any means other than mechanical is a public flogging; reading recipes from the back of a box results in summary execution. The reason for this draconic regime should be obvious to any man on this board. I have women about the house. Lots of them.

Louis, you are a Frenchman, you should know. Why is it dem womens can't cook? http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/essen/kochcool.gif

[English assassin]

Interesting kitchen manifesto. Puy lentils come in boxes, why are they banned? I quite like them.

I am also curious about the ban on mixing things "by any means other than mechanical". What other means are there? What is going on in Holland? Are people trying to whip up a batter using spiritual means? Does it work?


Louis, you are a Frenchman, you should know. Why is it dem womens can't cook?

In my experience they cook differently. Women follow recipies. When I cook I like to think of it as a heroic, Hemmingwayesque tussle to the death between me and the ingredients. If a recipe features at all it would be only as a point of departure, like Hendrix taking a few notes and then going off into riffs of his own...

Ahem.

[Adrian II]

I am also curious about the ban on mixing things "by any means other than mechanical". What other means are there? What is going on in Holland? Are people trying to whip up a batter using spiritual means? Does it work?

THIS is going on in my country!

http://www.consumer.philips.com/catalog/HR/HR7640_80_webImage100.jpg

And it has been going on for quite a while, under our very noses.



Not in my kitchen it isn't :stop:

EDIT
I've looked into the puy lentils. The fancy box might just make it past my stringent vetting system, but the plastic bag equals fourty lashes. :whip:

[Proletariat]

Socialist I may be, but when it comes to culinary policy my position is slightly to the right of Vlad the Impaler.


When is AdrianII's Tried n' True Orgah Recipe Book coming out?

How about a teaser? I'm bored and would like to try my hand at fouling up a new recipe this weekend.


As for the topic, in American fashion, big butts on small waists seem to have replaced the lady-boy waif look over the last half decade or so. Even whole companies of jeans manufacturers (http://www.phunkfashions.com/catalog.php?navgroup=1627&page=4) (yes, I know Nelly is an idiot) using the voluptuous-butt look as their selling point. In fact, a few days ago at the local shopping mall I noticed that the mannequin's rumps even look much more rotund compared to the heroin-chic 90's. Maybe it's just because I live in a country of fatsos, who knows.

[English assassin]

Are you telling me you make pesto by hand then?

And if I did make soup, which I don't because life's too short, but if I did, I would need a whizzy whirly thing like that.

The ban on boxes was bad, but now lashes for plastic bags? What about rice, eh, that comes in plastic bags? (except for delicious ready made rice pudding that comes in tins but as that is probably a disemboweling offence I shan't mention it)

[yesdachi]

...delicious ready made rice pudding...[/SIZE]
mmmmm... pudding.

Tag with Homer Simpson's voice.

[Adrian II]

How about a teaser? I'm bored and would like to try my hand at fouling up a new recipe this weekend.Tarte Tatin, as per the original recipe (http://www.hotel-tatin.fr/tarte_recette.php) of the Hotel Tatin. Almost as good as sex. And it helps four, whereas sex.. never mind.

Here is the English translation I found on about.com.


Take a tin-lined copper dish, about 6cm (about 2-1/4") deep and generously butter it. Add enough sugar to cover the bottom to a depth of 1cm (1/3 of an inch). Fill the dish with quartered apples or pears: dot the tops with some more butter and sprinkle a bit more sugar on top. Cover with pastry that is the thickness of a sou. Cook over a hot coal fire covered with a "country oven" (no clue what this is, anyone?) that is also covered with a hot fire. Cook 20 to 25 minutes.

Remove from the "country oven" and check for doneness by lifting a side of the pastry with a knife. The tart is cooked when the fruit is golden and the sugar is a bit carmelized. Cover the tart with the dish with which you want to serve it and turn it quickly, so that the fruit is on top. Serve hot.

Note: a sou is a dime.

Note: best served with cream and a spinkling of finely chopped caramelised ginger

Note: A four de campagne is a wood stone oven (lazy about.com woman...)

[Adrian II]

Are you telling me you make pesto by hand then?Pesto comes in glass jars... And in case you plan to continue in this vain, yes, I do allow women of the female persuasion to enter my kitchen occasionally. :mellow:

[Don Corleone]

I understand where Adrian is going, even if he has become something of a culinary fundamentalist with it. In the Corleone house, it's the male partner that does the majority of the cooking. My wife is good at deserts, baking and the like, but her ability at the main courses (and her desire to improve for that matter) leave me resigned to being primary cook.

I think the absolute worst tale I have to tell is when she told me she was going to make some Chinese from scratch in my wok. Happy (and not thinking about it enough), I settled in to watch a baseball game. A half hour later, arriving to partake of another barley soda, I was horrified ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek: to see her boiling up some Chinese food, pre-prepared that had come in a foil bag. As it said on the side, just boil in the bag and serve.

Needless to say, Mrs Corleone has been left to her deserts. Which I don't get. She can spend 3 hours making creme brule' or cheesecake from scratch, but thinks that food that comes pre-cooked out of the freezer is acceptable. *bleah*

[Adrian II]

I understand where Adrian is going, even if he has become something of a culinary fundamentalist with it.Fascist. Repeat after me: AdrianII is an adept of Culinary Fascism.

That's me :helmet:

[Kanamori]

Oh fine, rub it in. I don't even have a stove and creme brulee is way out of the question in a microwave; and chocolate rum pie; and jambalaya; and wonderful pasta dishes... stupid dorms :embarassed: Pfff, freshman-fifteen, I'm down to 140 again :embarassed: :embarassed:

[English assassin]

Oh fine, rub it in. I don't even have a stove and creme brulee is way out of the question in a microwave; and chocolate rum pie; and jambalaya; and wonderful pasta dishes... stupid dorms :embarassed: Pfff, freshman-fifteen, I'm down to 140 again :embarassed: :embarassed:

Stop complaining, and rejoice that you are still young enough and in exactly the right setting to be able to get 95% of your calorie intake from beer and suffer no ill effect whatsoever. All this fancy cooking stuff is what we oldies do to forget the disasterous effects 10 pints of guinness now have.

[Kanamori]

Hey, things are looking better.

~:cheers:

[Don Corleone]

10 pints of Guiness have disastrous effects you say? Maybe that's why I can't see my shoes anymore... :dizzy2:

[Spino]

Drivel from start to finish.

The whole thing is about nutrition and physical development. Culture is merely window dressing.

Asian women tend to have a far smaller waist to hip ratio than European women.
Goodness gracious, another pithy pearl of wisdom from Idaho. Pray tell good sir, why don't you impart to us a more substantial pearl of wisdom than that wondrous two part statement?

If culture is 'merely window dressing' how do you explain the alarmingly percentage of western women who starve themselves or have eating disorders? Why do so many women feel pressured to pursue extreme measures to reduce their weight and body fat? All this in light of the fact that obesity is a major problem in the west nowadays. Since the average westerner is 'plumper' than ever before why are women's physical role models still moving towards the opposite end of the spectrum? Why do the physiques of western fashion models draw such a stark and startling contrast to that of the average western woman? Why have women's physical role models been transformed from curvaceous, healthy body types into underweight, androgenous ones that clearly do not cater to the average male's image of an ideal woman? The pressures being exerted on western women regarding body image are cultural in origin. The problem lies with those who run the industry or industries that directly affect the way women view themselves. These people work primarily in or are in some way connected to the fashion industry and in the last 20-30 years have steadily reinforced the idea that possessing a distinctly female body is an undesirable quality. The people who control the fashion industry are overwhelmingly male and homosexual.

Yes, Asian women have smaller waists and busts than western women but provided they are not too westernized they have a strong tendency to act and dress in a much more feminine manner than their western counterparts. So what they lack in curves and bra size they make up for with desirable feminine qualities. Latin women seem to be lacking in neither and the rate at which American men marry them is astounding. Try visiting Florida or Texas and you'll see what I mean.

[ah_dut]

Why? It's none of my business if women want to look more like men, but I don't think it's attractive, and I certainly wouldn't say it's something to be celebrated.

As an aside-26" waist over here. Yeah baby.
Ha! 24'' waist punk ~;) ~D You've been beaten Darth Sanctaphrax, though I will admit I'm a lot shorter than you

Anyways, otherwise right on the spot as usual

Know too many people following diets in the week and getting smashed on alchohol at the weekend (male and female) to care anymore. I have t care about my diet, I am trying to gain weight ~;) It's Ice Cream time ~D

[King Henry V]

I think that the reason that of the models are just stick insects these days is that most of these designers are homo and would rather see boys in their costumes.

[Big_John]

i make pesto by hand.. what do i win?

when awarding my prize, keep in mind that i also grow my own basil.

~:handball:

[Don Corleone]

Damn man. Quite impressive. I grew all my own tomatoes and made my own sauce for 2 summers. With the baby on the way, I had bigger fish to fry this summer, so I bought the tomatoes at the farmers' market. There's even a scene in the Godfather about how all real men know how to cook.

[Big_John]

lol.. you and this godfather fetish..

anyway, yeah i have a little herb garden. i grow four or five kinds basil, some sage, parsley, two kinds of oregano, some thyme, um... oh, chives. something else i'm sure. also, i have six kinds of tomatos growing in there too. the little orange cherry tomatos are really good, very sweet.

oh yeah, i have two kinds of mint and some lovage growing in there too.

why am i telling you this you ask? you guessed it: i'm procrastinating my studies.

edit: forgot about the dill. i got dill too!

[Idaho]

Yes, Asian women have smaller waists and busts than western women but provided they are not too westernized they have a strong tendency to act and dress in a much more feminine manner than their western counterparts. So what they lack in curves and bra size they make up for with desirable feminine qualities. Latin women seem to be lacking in neither and the rate at which American men marry them is astounding. Try visiting Florida or Texas and you'll see what I mean.

They come from cultures where women are considered subservient and of lesser status. Hence insecure and ugly american blokes can score above their usual range by flashing a bit of cash. Sad really for both parties.

[DemonArchangel]

Ok, to be honest, I don't give a flying.... (ARGH! I Hate this swearing ban) about "feminity" and "fashion".

IMO less clothing is better, with nakedness being the best.

And the best kind of woman isn't one that just lays there as you bash her with your puny hip bones, the best kind is the kind that phyisically throws you onto the bed and rides you like a cowboy.

[Spino]

They come from cultures where women are considered subservient and of lesser status. Hence insecure and ugly american blokes can score above their usual range by flashing a bit of cash. Sad really for both parties.

Congratulations, you have once again distinguished yourself with another sparkling observation. I think it's both funny and a sad that you naturally assume I'm talking about mail order brides or women who are 'fresh off the boat' and hail from a lower class background (or rather, an utterly impoverished existence as you seem to imply). Whether you realize it or not your comment smacks of a racially and/or culturally tinged prejudice of sorts.

I know a number of latin women who have married American men who would give you a piece of their mind for what you wrote, especially since your example seems to portray them as either being pathetically desperate or drawing an alarmingly close resemblance to prostitutes. I personally know three couples of the type I mentioned (American man/Latin woman) who can dash your horrendously ignorant statement to bits.

The first couple has a recent graduate from law school neck deep in school loans married to a Columbian girl who works in an office in an administrative capacity. True, he's not much to look at but then again, she's no beauty queen either and now that he's steeped in debt they're not exactly living the high life. I guess that makes them disturbingly normal.

Second we have a husband who is a struggling DJ and a wife who is a manager in a legal dept. In this case she makes substantially more than her husband who has only been able to scratch out a meager and inconsistent living at his trade. He comes from a blue collar family, she hails from a wealthy Columbian family who moved to Miami when she was young. I have no idea what her former latin boyfriends were like but she is the furthest thing from a woman desperate to marry an ugly, low esteem American. She is also definitely not a 'self-hating latino' desperate to move up the social ladder and divorce herself from her 'oppressive' culture by marrying out. FYI, they're quite an attractive couple.

Last but not least we have another recent law school graduate married to a Brazilian woman. In this case the husband, an ex-army officer, actually made a decent living prior to getting married, so much so that his wife can stay at home and take care of their kids. For you see this is the sad and expected lot in life for a Brazilian woman, especially one who is so attractive and was once a professional motorcross racer. Clearly the male oppression and disrespect she experienced in her middle class Brazilian background put her at such a disadvantage that she had no option but to give up her career and cast her lot with a ugl... err, handsome Anglo American with a bright future ahead of him.

To be honest in all three examples I've given the women were either American citizens or had achieved permanent resident status before getting married. Sure, that technically makes them all Americans but in terms of their sensibilities, morals, beliefs and mindset they are distinctly Latin. And despite what you think, couples like these aren't the exception to the rule. True, only a truly desperate man would take any girl off the boat and make her his bride but most men I know who marry Asian or Latin woman do not want to be treated as a sperm producing wallet on two legs so they generally seek out women who come from similar backgrounds. In the three examples I provided the American men are neither ugly or lacking in self esteem. But in getting to know these couples I could see why these men asked these women to marry them and why they swear by latin women in general; they are alarmingly feminine, pleasant and 'normal' when compared to their American counterparts. They not only make great wives but great mothers and don't balk, bitch and make federal cases about minor issues that put American women in a tizzy. True, there are American men desperate for any woman to give them the time of day but from what I've seen the American men who deliberately marry non-American women do so because they simply cannot tolerate American women anymore. The average American woman simply doesn't compare favorably to her foreign counterparts. About the only thing desperate about these men is that they are desperate to have a normal relationship with a mature, feminine woman.

I mentioned finding your comments funny because surprisingly enough your response exactly mirrors that expressed by numerous American women who express an unusual amount of disdain for these kinds of relationships. They live under the delusion that American men cannot get or cannot handle ('handle' being a term black women for some reason love to use) an American women which is, in some ways, true to a degree. The problem is that these women simply do not understand that for many American men the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence.

[Papewaio]

They come from cultures where women are considered subservient and of lesser status. Hence insecure and ugly american blokes can score above their usual range by flashing a bit of cash. Sad really for both parties.

a) My wife is asian. She is not subservient to me nor do I find that attractive. The chinese culture may have things that make the women more subservient to men, and the chinese men can be quite sexist. So it is the women looking for someone who will treat them as an equal and is still a man. Opposite to your point of view.

b) I, like a lot of my friends who are married or dating women from other cultures are not insecure. I find that there is a far higher proportion of university graduates, professionals and tradesmen who are 'inter-marrying' then people who are less emotionally and socially secure. The men and women have to be more confident to go against the grain of the likes of yourself.

I have seen statements before like yours coming from whiny sexist little asian men who lose the asian women because they treat them like dirt. It is ironic coming from yourself a champion of anti-racism.

[Beirut]

Gentlemen!

Please... :bow:

I would like to think Idaho's comments were not directed at anyone in particular and I more than understand Papewaio's reaction to any (perceived) offence to his family.

The matter is closed.

[Strike For The South]

When I said the matter was closed. I meant the matter was closed! - Beirut

[Louis VI the Fat]

Please, I quite enjoyed the way this thread developed. All this talk about fashion, food and women - pretty much my basic interests in life.

Idaho was only talking about a specific kind of relationship. We all know mail order brides exists for reasons he specified - check the spam in your email inbox. I don't think he was implying anything about inter-racial relationships in general.

Edit: a little intervention by Beirut has been made while I wrote this post. Let's keep this thread open by carrying on about feminine curves...

[Strike For The South]

Alright all hope is not lost https://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3483/angelina20jolie20020sl.th.jpg (https://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=angelina20jolie20020sl.jpg)

[DemonArchangel]

Sorry, Angelina is a ugly hag.
End of story.

[DemonArchangel]

http://csc.ziyi.org/gallery/zhangziyi001.jpg

Now THAT is my kind of woman.

[Strike For The South]

http://csc.ziyi.org/gallery/zhangziyi001.jpg

Now THAT is my kind of woman.

Asians aint my bag man

[DemonArchangel]

Again, I want a woman I can have rough, hardcore sex with, not someone that just lays there and occasionally cooks my dinner.

[Strike For The South]

Well how good is dinner?????????????

[DemonArchangel]

Huh?

[Strike For The South]

Huh?

Well I mean hardcore anamalistic sex is great and all but a woman who can cook is worht her weghit in gold ~:cheers:

[DemonArchangel]

True, true.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I would like to note for the record that the deleterious effects associated with drinking 10 pints of Guinness can be countered with an additional 6-8 pints of consumption. This is referred to as one's "second wind."

Vis-a vis this thread, however, 16+ pints of Guinness tends to leave one with the impression that all women are curvy and intensely attractive. Come to think of it, even the lawn furniture starts looking cute at that point.....

Hmm. Must get back to my research.

Seamus

[Kraxis]

You know DA that it is rather contradictory that you pick a small rather slim built girl, over a tall physically much more strongly built girl such as Angelina Jolee when you want to do it rough.

[bmolsson]

You know DA that it is rather contradictory that you pick a small rather slim built girl, over a tall physically much more strongly built girl such as Angelina Jolee when you want to do it rough.

Not at all surprising. He is on the receiving end when it gets rough..... ~;)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well I mean hardcore anamalistic sex is great and all but a woman who can cook is worht her weghit in gold ~:cheers:

This tempts me to quote Rudyard Kipling:
"A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke"