What are the stats for a unit of hastati?

[econ21]

OK, in the poll for why I am excited about EB, I chose the option "the sheer artistic beauty of it". I have been salivating over the unit profiles for what seems like a year or so.

However, within the heart of even the most artistically inclined wargamer, there lies a dessicated calculating machine, wanting to crank the stats and weigh the odds. So I am itching to know - what has EB done to the unit stats?

For example, could you tell us the stats of a unit, say, hastati, in the game? Just a little morsel of data to feed the number cruncher within.
In vanilla, a unit of hastati has a melee attack 7, missile attack 11, total defence 14 (of which armor is 5 and shield 5)

The reason I ask is because I understand EB is giving the RTW combat engine a pretty major overhaul.

Most mods seem to want to slow down the killing speed, so raise defence (or lower attack) and many also raise unit morale to make the battles last longer.

There may also be historical reasons for wanting to tone down cavalry and missiles, which seem a little too good in vanilla. [I rather like RTR 6.1s approach to this - cavalry has its attack raised and defence slashed (they become kind of ghazis & do well charging from the flanks, but not frontally); missile attacks (other than javelins) are also slashed (so they work best against unarmoured and especially unshielded targets).]

Any insights into how EB is approaching the unit stats?

[QwertyMIDX]

Early or late?

[SwordsMaster]

Early or late?
Both ~D

[Wardo]

You want the stats from the right-handed or left-handed Hastati? I heard EB nerfed left-handed Hastati because the game is hard-coded so all Hastati must hold the gladius in their right-hand, and left-handed Hastati suffer from a weaker right-arm strenght and practice.

[Steppe Merc]

You want the stats from the right-handed or left-handed Hastati? I heard EB nerfed left-handed Hastati because the game is hard-coded so all Hastati must hold the gladius in their right-hand, and left-handed Hastati suffer from a weaker right-arm strenght and practice.
No, you've got it backwards. We had difficulty in balancing the left handed Eastern archers, who could fire their bow with either hand, however CA didn't allow the archers to switch bow hands at will. ~;)

[zemaniak]

gee, why do I get the feeling you won't get a clear answer.. ~:rolleyes:

[QwertyMIDX]

The current stats for the Early Hastati are as follows, like everything else in EB this is a WIP.

melee attack: 11 (leathality 0.1)
missile attack: 4 (AP)
defense: 19 (7 armor, 3 shield)
morale: 11

Clear enough? ~;)

Thanks, guys that was fun. ~:grouphug:

[zemaniak]

thx for the heads-up...but your answer brings up some questions:

1) 7 armor, even though they have none (??), but only 3 for shield
2) with such low missile stats, do any kills occur per volley ?

[QwertyMIDX]

A helmet and a greave are in fact armour last time I checked ~;).

[kayapó]

thx for the heads-up...but your answer brings up some questions:

1) 7 armor, even though they have none (??), but only 3 for shield
2) with such low missile stats, do any kills occur per volley ?


Stats don't behave very logicaly. So you can't be like: If no armor= 0; if chain armor = 5; if plate armor = 10. This kind of aproach to them isn't good. They are abstractions, not written on hard stone. ~:)

[soibean]

In RTR 6.1, the Gaul Mercenary slingers with 2 chevrons of experience only did 4 missile damage and this would kill maybe 4 men per volley, this was against another gaul slinger unit. Well they did have some armor, the helmet and that small chest piece to protect the heart. I'd think that the shield would have to be more, but the defense skill sounds right.
What did you mean by leathality (0.1)?

[QwertyMIDX]

There are game mechanics reasons why shield defense is kept low.

Also please not that the missile attack is 4 with AP.

https://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finalearlyhastati7en1tf.jpg

This is the unit BTW, in case people want to take a look and compare.

[khelvan]

Posting the unit doesn't help you guys, as you lack the context to understand the numbers. We're not revealing the whole system just yet, so I am afraid showing the stats for one unit will create more questions than it answers.

[Ypoknons]

Indeed trying to understand the unit without the system is quite pointless, although here we are give some hints to how the EB system will work.

[QwertyMIDX]

I didn't say it would be helpful ~;), I just provided the information I was asked for. Admittedly after playing politician for a bit, but that was all in good fun. Hopefully no one will take this exercise too seriously.

[econ21]

The current stats for the Early Hastati are as follows, like everything else in EB this is a WIP.

melee attack: 11 (leathality 0.1)
missile attack: 4 (AP)
defense: 19 (7 armor, 3 shield)
morale: 11


Thanks, QwertyMIDX. That's interesting - I appreciate it's WIP; I'm just interested to see how you thinking at the moment.

I confess like Soibean I don't know what lethality does in game. Anyone know what the default value is in vanilla? I'm wondering if lowering lethality is how EB has chosen to slow down the kill speeds? The differential between the attack and the defence stat, which in STW and MTW used to determine kill chances, seems pretty much the same as in vanilla.

Morale also seems close to vanilla's, unlike RTR 6.1 where it is doubled.

Does anyone know if the AP property halves the effect of shields as well as armour? If so, it looks like javelins will be similar in effectiveness to vanilla; otherwise they will be reduced.

BTW, likening things to vanilla is not an implied criticism. I am a fan of CA's work and don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.


Posting the unit doesn't help you guys, as you lack the context to understand the numbers. We're not revealing the whole system just yet, so I am afraid showing the stats for one unit will create more questions than it answers.

Don't worry, Khelvan, this is a just discussion forum - not the Spanish inquisition. ~:grouphug: You are right, we'd need to know about other units, missiles and cav etc. to form a proper views, but I am not going to push my luck with that just yet. :bow:

[QwertyMIDX]

Leathality is the % chance a hit has to kill...it only works for melee weapons. Vanilla leathality is 1.
AP does not work of defense gained from shields.
Javs are less effective than in vanilla, though they can still be battle winners if used in a proper support role, you won't see infantry with prec weapons set to fire at will reducing an enemy charge to shambles anymore though.
Morale is sigificantly higher than vanillas, but closer to 1.5x than 2x, though it varies a lot depending on the unit. We didn't do anything so crass as simply double morale ~;).

[econ21]

Thanks again, QwertyMIDX. Reducing melee kill chances to 10% is a pretty big change from vanilla then!

I can also see now why you have toned down javelins to stop the balance of arms (melee vs missiles) getting too far out of whack.

With the shields being resistant to AP, it sounds like I'll have to adopt the RTR 6.1 tactic of sneaking the velites etc around the flanks to avoid hitting the shields.

Is the reduction of lethality across the board or does it vary by unit (or weapon)? I hope the former, so we can still assess unit effectiveness by looking at attack and defence rather than try to also keep any lethality differences in mind. I couldn't find a lethality stat in the units text file, but then I am no modder.

[QwertyMIDX]

Leathality is the final stat on the weapon line of the EDU.

[jerby]

Edu?

[cunctator]

EDU=export_descr_unit.txt file, where the stats are saved.

[econ21]

Thanks for the info. I am now feeling rather clueless - using the Caligula editor, I find a "hit strength" for the hastati of 1 for the pilum and 0.3 for the sword. I guess this is lethality?

Unfortunately my EDU is for RTR 6.1, not vanilla. (I knew I should have backed up my files). It looks like lethality is 1 for ranged weapons and 0.3 for most infantry melee weapons in RTR 6.1. Pikes and spears are 0.4. Cavalry weapons seem to vary a lot and to be more lethal (0.8, sometimes 0.5). I wonder why CA introduced a lethality factor, rather than just relying on attack and defence stats as in STW and MTW?

It's not clear why any infantry would want to switch from spears to swords, as swords seem to have lower attack and lethality. I wonder if the swing speed is relevant for unit effectiveness? Or is it just cosmetic? It's zero for swords and 25 for spears. Alternatively, maybe there is a hardcoded advantage for swords over spears, as in MTW? But then again switching from spears to swords seems to be something that happens automatically in given circumstances (eg disrupted phalanx) and not something the player opts to do.

[Moros]

lithality isn't for range weapons I believe.

[QwertyMIDX]

Leathality doesn't effect missile weapons, so they;d all be one. Animations have a large affect on the way a weapon works, they are far from cosmetic.

[econ21]

Animations have a large affect on the way a weapon works, they are far from cosmetic.

So I wonder do you have a rule of thumb for working out the melee combat power of two units, that also factors in lethality and animations etc? In STW and MTW, there was a formula by which the differential between attack and defence stats determined kill chances. CA have not released the formula for RTW - they said it was a commercial secret when I asked - but maybe modders have inferred something?

As a I first stab, I would say:
Pr(kill) =f[lethality * (attack-defence)]
but I have not got a clue where swing speed would fit in.

I know we're straying into Ludus Magna territory here, but no one visits me there anymore so I am hanging out where the action is. ~;)

[QwertyMIDX]

I tried to get some people talking about this sort of thing there, but no such luck.

Anyway, the problem is that EB, even more tha vanilla has a ton of animations. I now have a pretty good feel for how an animation will interact with stats, but it's mostly something gained from tons of tests not any knowledge of a system...animations are rather abstract as many other factors beside attack speed are important.

[Mr Frost]

So I wonder do you have a rule of thumb for working out the melee combat power of two units, that also factors in lethality and animations etc? In STW and MTW, there was a formula by which the differential between attack and defence stats determined kill chances. CA have not released the formula for RTW - they said it was a commercial secret when I asked - but maybe modders have inferred something?

As a I first stab, I would say:
Pr(kill) =f[lethality * (attack-defence)]
but I have not got a clue where swing speed would fit in.

I know we're straying into Ludus Magna territory here, but no one visits me there anymore so I am hanging out where the action is. ~;)
According to C/A , Swing Speed , is the "time between animation cycles" in multiples of 1/10th of a second . Thus the default is 2.5 seconds {all units} for vanilla and 0 seconds and/or 2.5 seconds {varies by unit and weapon} for RTW .

For units using the same attack animations it does seem {to me , and just a rough observation} to be close to a straight forward progression at higher numbers {say 10+} that 25 gets 4/5ths of the kills per minute than 20 , however the closer you get to 0 , the smaller the increase in kills {though still a supprising difference between 5 and 10} .

I personally use it in my own mods extensivly to help differentiate between certain weapons performance and also certain qualities of soldier ; some are slower than average due to not being suited to melee combat {many archers for example and a few very poor melee units like Sparabara} and some are much faster as they were the born naturals whom invariably gravitate towards the cream of elite units{Gaesate and Hypaspists for example} . Between modifyed Lethality and Attack Rates I am quite satisfyed thus far in what I can make units do except for missiles ... I'm *this* close to a full blown rant over that towering C/A "we didn't think it was important , even though we went to the great trouble of codeing the damned thing into the engine in the first place then not really using it after all" geekery :furious3: Arrrggh !

Apologies to all non oblivious geeks .

[Mr Frost]

There are game mechanics reasons why shield defense is kept low...
That's interesting . What problems arise from larger values and at what sort of rate do they accrue ?

In my personal mods , I've been using values up to 10 for the largest and best designed shields and havn't yet had any noticable problems apparantly stemming from it .
For context , my armour values max at 16 for the heaviest Cataphracts {for cavalry I take the average between the riders' armour and the horses' -which is armour + 3 due to the horses thicker skin and tougher frame- Armoured Elephants are the only ones with higher and cavalry shields are only half value also} with Legionares as example at 10 , skill ranges that centre on a value of 10 {eg: Princepes and Basic Legionares} , attack rates mostly around 10 and lethality ratings mostly below 0.5 {eg: Princepes 0.35 , Legionares and most spears 0.4 Gauls/Germans with longswords 0.5 , Falx 1} .

What problem or other would might I have failed to notice {or associate with higher shield ratings} ?



Edit :put a bracket in wrong place

[jerby]

the only thing i can think up is the defence against arrows...
if 60%of your total armor is shield, than they will be decimated when they turn their backs (remembering rtw's AI..doing that often..)
or along those lines.. it thought that defense against missile is shield+armor (no 'skills')

but on teh other hand, it's a great chalange to lead your skirmishers around...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

AP is not accounted against shields, which makes high shield defense units imune to ap units.

[QwertyMIDX]

AP is not accounted against shields, which makes high shield defense units imune to ap units.

And we have a winner! That's right, the piece of personal defense that should be most affected by AP is not, in fact, affected by AP.

[Mr Frost]

AP is not accounted against shields, which makes high shield defense units imune to ap units.
Is that all ? I already knew about those {I have high armour values too and a.p. still effects that} .

I was getting the impression it was something obtuse or exotic .

I actually like that large value sheilds have a big effect . It's a bit challanging making units like Falxmen effective against such as Legionares {whom have shield valuse and armour both at 10} , but I believe it quite possible without resorting to any sort of cheese . Shields were the first and prime defense of that era for most heavy infantry so I try to portray that effect in my personal mods .

Thank you for the repily , never the less . It did the trick of assuring me there wasn't yet one bloody more bug that I wasn't aware of , so my problems to solve are no greater than before ~D