Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

[Aurelian]

There was an article out Sunday called: "FAMILY DEMANDS THE TRUTH: New inquiry may expose events that led to Pat Tillman’s death" (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&type=printable). Most of the article is about the family's distress at the way the military handled the investigations and publicity surrounding Tillman's death. They feel that there was some lying and CYAing going on.

But, the part that got me was this:


Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author...

Yet other Tillman family members are less reluctant to show Tillman’s unique character, which was more complex than the public image of a gung-ho patriotic warrior. He started keeping a journal at 16 and continued the practice on the battlefield, writing in it regularly. (His journal was lost immediately after his death.) Mary Tillman said a friend of Pat’s even arranged a private meeting with Chomsky, the antiwar author, to take place after his return from Afghanistan — a meeting prevented by his death. She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, “Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.”

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.

Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White — a Navy SEAL who served with Pat and Kevin for four months in Iraq and was the only military member to speak at Tillman’s memorial — said Pat “wasn’t very fired up about being in Iraq” and instead wanted to go fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan. He said both Pat and Kevin (who has a degree in philosophy) “were amazingly well-read individuals … very firm in some of their beliefs, their political and religious or not so religious beliefs.”

[Don Corleone]

Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall (http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/) and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?

[Devastatin Dave]

Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall (http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/) and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?
Probably not, the only way the left would ever accept Thilman is if they find out that he use to perform partial birth abortions or that it turns out that he was had actually tried to kill his fellow troops while prasing Allah and Bin Laden.

[Goofball]

Wow.

An article gets posted about a how a true American hero might actually have disagreed with Bush and with the invasion of Iraq and the only thing conservatives respond with is "liberals are mean, heartless, babymurdering traitors."

Thanks for staying true to form boys.

[Don Corleone]

Goof, you're having a Don Corleone moment, and a bad one at that. I said none of what you're accusing me of. For the past year, Pat Tillman has been an object of scorn and abuse by the Left. I merely asked if that would end, now that it's been revealed that he had an affinity for Noam Chomsky. Where did you get "Liberals are heartless, baby-murdering traitors" from that? I'm struck by the irony that the man they all chose to ridicule and attack (post-mortem) turns out to be one of them.

[Devastatin Dave]

true American hero

Yup, NOW, he's a true American hero. That's not what many on the left were saying at the time of his death.

[Goofball]

Goof, you're having a Don Corleone moment, and a bad one at that. I said none of what you're accusing me of. For the past year, Pat Tillman has been an object of scorn and abuse by the Left. I merely asked if that would end, now that it's been revealed that he had an affinity for Noam Chomsky.

While I admit I was having bit of a reactionary moment there, it was not totally without some basis in fact.


Where did you get "Liberals are heartless, baby-murdering traitors" from that?

Heartless:


Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall (http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/) and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?

Baby-murdering:


the only way the left would ever accept Thilman is if they find out that he use to perform partial birth abortions

Traitors:


or that it turns out that he was had actually tried to kill his fellow troops while prasing Allah and Bin Laden.

Understand how a lefty might have taken offense?

[Don Corleone]

Well, with all due respect Goofball, perhaps you didn't see just how HEARTLESS the Left was in this country after Pat Tillman got killed. It wasn't just the extremists either. There were plenty of folks, including the mainstream media, which granted was more motivated by ratings then ideology. They seemed to relish in putting the Ted Ralls and Rene Gonzalezes of the world on Hardball, Crossfire and any other media venue they could. Now that it turns out that Pat Tillman was in fact on their side, philosophically, when it comes to Iraq and the election, you can hardly expect me to keep silent and not offer at least a little sour grapes.

As for Dave's comments, well, he is what he is, God love him. A bit of a finger in the eye, sure, but don't forget, he was still on active duty when he watched the Left going on and on about how Pat Tillman, and everyone who died over in Afghanistan/Iraq were getting what they deserve. You might imagine he has a little bile stored up.

And before we get too high and mighty, what do you suspect was Aurelian's motivation for starting this thread in the first place?

[Goofball]

Well, with all due respect Goofball, perhaps you didn't see just how HEARTLESS the Left was in this country after Pat Tillman got killed. It wasn't just the extremists either. There were plenty of folks, including the mainstream media, which granted was more motivated by ratings then ideology. They seemed to relish in putting the Ted Ralls and Rene Gonzalezes of the world on Hardball, Crossfire and any other media venue they could. Now that it turns out that Pat Tillman was in fact on their side, philosophically, when it comes to Iraq and the election, you can hardly expect me to keep silent and not offer at least a little sour grapes.

Acknowledged. To be honest, it was Dave's comments that bothered me more than yours.

My fault. I have known the Devastatin' One long enough now that I shouldn't be bothered by him. But sometimes he still gets my goat.

:furious3:

[Don Corleone]

Well, as a couple of folks have PM'd me when I've taken offense to the broad brush used to paint religious fundamentalists and right wing idealogues, think of it this way... if you weren't going around bad mouthing Pat Tillman after he died, Dave and I weren't addressing you. Not the most satsifying answer in the world, but there is some comfort there to be had.

[Devastatin Dave]

Acknowledged. To be honest, it was Dave's comments that bothered me more than yours.

My fault. I have known the Devastatin' One long enough now that I shouldn't be bothered by him. But sometimes he still gets my goat.

:furious3:

I didn't point to you, its not all about you.
Sorry but you cannot deny that many on the left consider myself and others as nothing more than nazi storm troopers stomping on the throat of any non American. So if you took it personnaly, I'm sorry.

[Goofball]

I didn't point to you, its not all about you.

I know. I guess I just took my Mom too seriously all those times she told me I was the center of the Universe.


Sorry but you cannot deny that many on the left consider myself and others as nothing more than nazi storm troopers stomping on the throat of any non American.

"Many" is a pretty vague word. If by "many" you mean "thousands" I would agree with you. But even a few hundred thousand harboring that belief out of the milions of us lefties out there would be statistically insignificant and would not be representative of the left as a whole.

On the other hand, most of us on the left do not bear any ill will or wish harm to individual US soldiers. We are smart enough to know that our anger is more properly placed at the feet of the political leaders, not the troops.

That seems to be a distinction that conservatives have had a hard time getting their heads around since this whole thing started.

[Hurin_Rules]

Can you provide some links to back up the statement that those on the left expressed their happiness that Tillman 'got what he deserved'.?

I have always had tremendous respect for Tillman, as you can see from my posts, before I had heard anything about his wide reading. I believe, however, that you are constructing a straw man here. None of the leftists I know rejoiced in his death. But perhaps you can prove me wrong.

[Don Corleone]

Well, for starters, take a look at the link to Ted Rall's cartoons I linked. Then try (I did, unsucessfully) to find a version of the UMass editorial from the chief editor, Rene Gonzalez. I'll try to find a few others, but here's a post from one of the Lefty blogs I visit periodically:
www.patridiots.com/000135.html

Here's a story from MickeyZ, a Leftist commentator they drag out on MSNBC periodically: http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/mickeyz12052004/

[Hurin_Rules]

None of those sources provide much evidence to back up your claims Don.

The first one talks about his brother's outburst at his funeral. Nothing about the author being glad Tillman himself was dead. The title of the article, "Pat Tillman's f****** dead", refers to his brother's statement at his funeral.

The second article calls Tillman's death 'sad' and 'wasteful'. It was indeed both. Again, nothing to imply that he 'got what he deserved'. I think you are misreading sadness at the death of an American as shameful joy.

The political cartoon was in bad taste and misunderstood Tillman's motivation, certainly. But again, I see no rejoicing in it. Again, it calls attention to the wastefulness of the death and of the entire misguided US military campaign. It does not revel in it. It is not a triumphal procession but a satire, which has its own rules and forms. Jonathan swift was not revelling in the fact that religious disputes had revolved around minuscule and incomprehensible issues when he lampooned them in Gulliver's Travels. Similarly, the cartoonist is not revelling in the deaths of Americans by pointing out that they were needless. In fact, he is doing the opposite.

[Don Corleone]

Talk about selective editing, Hurin, shame on you... for those of you who don't want to read the articles, just so Hurin doesn't skew your views.

The whole quote from MickeyZ's article:

When Pat Tillman said no to the NFL and yes to killing brown people, no one talked about the team he let down. This handsome white male became an instant hero...a status only enhanced by his sad, wasteful death by friendly fire. Playing the race card...

From the article "Pat Tillman is F^@$ing dead":
First they used Jessica Lynch, now Pat Tillman

And finally, I actually found that UMass Collegian editorial I was looking for:



Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him

By Rene Gonzalez
April 28, 2004


When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.

I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."

But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.

However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.

Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.

Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.

Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student

Hurin, honestly, maybe the news you see in Canada isn't as carbon copy from what we get down here as you think. I don't know. But for about 2 months, everyone and their brother was getting on television saying "Pat Tillman was no hero, he got killed because he wanted to play Rambo". You weren't here. You don't know.

[Geoffrey S]

Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall (http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/03/) and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?
Ouch. That cartoon is one of the coldest things I've ever seen.
This whole thing begs the question, why does it matter what kind of political leaning Tillman may have had? Does whether he was right or left to make his death more or less of a tragedy? Somehow, I don't think so.

[Hurin_Rules]

Hurin, honestly, maybe the news you see in Canada isn't as carbon copy from what we get down here as you think. I don't know. But for about 2 months, everyone and their brother was getting on television saying "Pat Tillman was no hero, he got killed because he wanted to play Rambo". You weren't here. You don't know.

Yes, I do know, because I get the same news as you. I watch mostly CNN. I listen to NPR and my favorite news program is the MacNeill/Lehrer news hour. I watch all the major US network news. I also get US local news from the inland Northwest. I get fox news programs and MSNBC.

Anyway, I agree with you that the Gonzalez article was full of shameful joy. There, we are in complete agreement, and that piece should deservedly be condemned.

On the other hand, a grad student writing in a college newspaper in Massachusetts can hardly be seen as a spokesman for The Left. I could find some pretty horrific stuff in the campus newspaper at Bob Jones University, but I don't cite it as proof that Bush wants to reunite church and state, throw all homosexuals in jail or end the feminist movement.

You are, moreover, misinterpreting the other articles you have cited: they do not contain shameful joy at Tillman's death, but sadness at the waste of American life Bush's misguided military campaigns have caused.

Saying that Tillman's death was a tragedy is not the same as rejoicing over it; in fact, it is the opposite.

[Don Corleone]

Well, I don't know how else to take MickeyZ's comments that he was only too happy to go run off and kill Brown people. I don't know how to take Michael Moore & Susan Sarandon's comments at the time.

I might understand a case made against Iraq. I cannot understand the case against Afghanistan, as we essentially deprived a hostile power the ability to hit us a second time (something they, the Taliban themselves, publicly reserved the right to do).

I like you Hurin and I respect you, so I think this is where I need to drop this particular exchange.

[PanzerJaeger]

Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?

Hmm probably.

It will take a lot of revision to erase all the horrible things they said about him, but if anyone can pull off that magnitude of doublespeak, its the left. I wouldnt be surprized to see Rall go into full hero worship mode when he finds out about this.. i wonder if he'll even bother taking the other cartoon down.

[Tribesman]

From the article "Pat Tillman is F^@$ing dead":
Quote:
First they used Jessica Lynch, now Pat Tillman

Whats wrong with that statement Don ?
You single it out as the thing you find offensive about that particular link you posted , so what is your issue with it ?

[Don Corleone]

I really don't want to continue this discussion any further, I'm sorry, I thought I had made that clear. I surrender, you're all absolutely right, the Left has never had a bad thing to say about Pat Tillman, or any serviceman for that matter. Now, on to discussable items. ~:grouphug:

[Aurelian]

And before we get too high and mighty, what do you suspect was Aurelian's motivation for starting this thread in the first place?

I just thought that it was funny. It goes against all the stereotypes about Tillman... and leftists for that matter.

This was Ann Coulter's take on Tillman:

"American hero Pat Tillman won a Silver Star this year. But unlike Kerry, he did not write his own recommendation or live to throw his medals over the White House fence in an anti-war rally.

Tillman was an American original: virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be. The stunningly handsome athlete walked away from a three-year, $3.6 million NFL contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the U.S. military and fight in Afghanistan, where he was killed in April.

He wanted no publicity and granted no interviews about his decision to leave pro football in the prime of his career and join the Army Rangers. (Most perplexing to Democrats, he didn't even take a home movie camera to a war zone in order to create fake footage for future political campaigns in which he would constantly palaver about his military service and drag around his "Band of Brothers" for the media.)

Tillman gave only an indirect explanation for his decision on the day after 9/11, when he said: "My great grandfather was at Pearl Harbor, and a lot of my family has gone and fought in wars, and I really haven't done a damn thing as far as laying myself on the line like that." He said he wanted to "pay something back" to America.

He died bringing freedom and democracy to 28 million Afghans -- pretty much confirming Michael Moore's view of America as an imperialist cowboy predator. There is not another country in the world -- certainly not in continental Europe -- that could have produced a Pat Tillman.

On the anniversary of D-Day, as Americans like Pat Tillman risked their lives to liberate 50 million Iraqis and Afghans, in a year when Americans poured into theaters to see a movie about Christ and reaffirmed their support for moral values at the polling booth, America's greatest president died. Ronald Reagan appealed to what is best about America and so transformed the nation that we are now safe to carry on without him."


It's just funny to read that and know that Pat Tillman supported Kerry, hated Bush, was against the Iraq War, etc. Politically speaking, he was almost the polar opposite of the assumptions that Coulter and others made about him. If he had made it back from Iraq and Afghanistan, it's not too hard to imagine that (after his meeting with Noam) he might very well have protested against the war and the administration.

There he was, a Democrat, leftist, non-religious... and he was willing to give up his football career in the wake of 9/11 to try to do something about al Qaeda. I think if you'd take a poll, most of us lefties were on board for the Afghanistan operation. It's just a shame that they decided to move on Iraq instead of concentrating resources in Afghanistan. That really divided the country and the world. The right really turned on the left over Iraq, accusing it of being unpatriotic, etc. But, the left just had serious reservations about what could, and was likely to be, accomplished by invading Iraq. Caution, and a different threshold about when you should go to war, isn't unpatriotic.

Oh, and yes, Ted Rall was a shameful ass over the Tillman bit. Said so at the time. Sometimes he's right on the money, but every once in a while he jumps WAY over the line. The other occasion that comes to mind was a nasty strip he did about Daniel Pearl's widow. Poor judgement.

Anyway, the next time you guys think about unpatriotic America-hating leftists, just consider Pat Tillman, Chomskyite American warrior. ~;)

[Strike For The South]

ugh those writers spitting on a man who dicided to fight for them how sad

[Hurin_Rules]

I like you Hurin and I respect you, so I think this is where I need to drop this particular exchange.

Fair enough Don. I just wanted you to know in parting that I always had tremendous respect for Tillman. I never said anything remotely like 'he got what he deserved.' This was well before I knew of his leftist leanings. I too have respect for many on the right who sacrificed in war, from Dole to McCain, and I don't question their integrity on this issue.