View Full Version : BI issues answered... Got it
To my surprise I actually found a store selling BI. Well, it isn't really that much of a surprise as I have previously gotten MTW and VI early from them.
When I had picked it up I kindly asked the clerk if its wasn't supposed to get out the 30th. He answered that he did know but would check up on it.
It turns out that he couldn't find anything saying that for their store, and it had in fact been out for a few days.
Now we are counting Tuesday today, so a few days to me sounds like Friday last week, but it could just have been yesterday. I didn't go further to ask if they had a licence for that as I quite wanted it. But to me it sounded like they did indeed have a right to sell it, and given their usual history of beating the usual deadlines with no problems I think it is a good bet.
Anyway, I'm off to try out the game.
I will come back to comment on these issues, and more:
AI in battle and on strategic map (can only be brief with the strategic map).
Charge of cavalry against infantry.
Horse archers shooting while moving (I suppose the bug is fixed)
Save-bug
and if I can I will check up on naval AI.
Post any non-screenshot related questions.
Btw, if you are fearing the pagan symbol, don't. It isn't the pentagram, but rather a Yen symbol.
Duke John
09-27-2005, 11:28
Could you test wether AI archers start shooting at maximum distance or wether they still charge before the other infantry? I found these one of the greatest flaws in the tactical AI as a proper missile war was rarely being fought.
Cheers,
DJ
edyzmedieval
09-27-2005, 12:59
Another lucky dawg....
Franconicus
09-27-2005, 13:26
Good Luck! Now I see what stopped Manstein's attack ~;)
As I read through the manual I found the explaination for the quick out game.
The manual was swedish. Apparently they had ordered the game at the smae place as everyone else, and since it was a big order it was shipped well in advance.
No big surprise there though as the other early games have been American. They really use everything they can to get in front.
Anyway to the issues at hand.
The stategic AI seems to be a little better at keeping the family members in the armies, but having only played a few years it isn't a great statistical background. Many members start in control of armies.
In battle the AI is still easy to outmaneuver, sadly. They do not try to block you as you try to force them off the high ground. That is the same.
But the generals do indeed stay back, and are only deploye at the critical time. A battle with the Sarmatians as the Eastern Empire I fought their armies in a bloody advance. Pushes them back and they kept coming. Bloody indeed. Finally my troops were tired and the two family members charged my troops. They ground them into the earth and eventually even killed my own family member. It was a horrific loss.
Cavalry chages have been seriously nerfed. In a Custom Battle I charged a unit of Cataphracts (Clibanarii are different, but you'll see) into a unit of Limitanei. In RTW such a matchup would result in a catastrophic destruction of the spearmen at the first charge. That didn't happen. In fact only 4 spearmen were flung backwards. They eventually lost horribly, but they withstood the charge admirably.
Tested it a few times with other cavalries and spearmen and even runaway slaves managed to stand up to cavalry charges fairly well, and they made mincemeat out of Equites Auxilia (lowest rank of Eastern cavalry, but still quite good).
But it should be noted that the highest chargebonus I have noticed is 10... So obviously the problem with the armour playing in on the charge has been solved.
It is worth pointing out that a charge in the rear is just as devastating as one would expect.
Haven't met enough ships to form an oppion on the naval AI.
Horse arcehrs do indeed shoot on the move (if they hadn't fixed that I would have gone crazy).
The save-bug is fixed, or so I figured when the Sassanids didn't break off their siege of Caesarea and eventually did assault me (but their lousy infantry got creamed though).
Archers do seem to be more 'passive' now. Had an early battle against the Sassanids (they didn't like I took a stroll in their lands apparently), and their slingers and archers held back nice a firm, and eventually took out my infantry with flanking shots (slingers). So the AI is better all in all, but certain aspects have not been improved.
A few nice things:
Hired generals (simply trained bodyguard unit) can't keep your lineage alive.
Items and titles grant loyalty (return to MTW here)
Some new speeches. I noticed one of my general talking about "the road to victory is paved with skulls". Hadn't heard that one before.
The Eastern Empire has a most powerful selection of troops.
The mercs are quite varied, from Veteranii (old legionaries) to the usual horse archers of the east.
The fewer cities means a lot more field battles.
Western Roman Rebels popped up in the second turn (GAH!), and the Eastern Rebels were not that far behind had I not acted decisively.
It is difficult choice between christianity and paganism, at least to me.
Very interesting post, Kraxis. I like the sound of what has happened to cavalry. Tastes may vary, but it sounds about right. (Rather MTWish).
Is (good) archery still as devastating as in vanilla? (I recall shredding an attacking full Roman army with four archer auxilia on a hill).
I wonder if the reduced number of provinces makes the strategic AI any more focussed and formiddable? Also, do they benefit from starting off with bigger initial armies? I'm guessing that in BI the factions start off with more men than in RTW, so it's more a case of "good to go" than lots of building and a slow climb up the tech tree.
SpencerH
09-27-2005, 13:56
It does sound better. The comment about runaway slaves standing up to cav sounds a bit suspect though (unless they're some kinda special unit and not peasant-like.
It does sound better. The comment about runaway slaves standing up to cav sounds a bit suspect though (unless they're some kinda special unit and not peasant-like.
Well, they survived, but their losses were heavy. They are a large unit in horde formation (not to confuse withhorde units) so their footprint was very big. The poor equites are good, but they are really rather light and not suitable to beat up spearmen.
They did a good show I think.
Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective. Losses can be rather substantial, but nothing like before. It could be argued it isn't enough of a nerf, but at least something was done. And most archers are very weak in melee. We are talking basic archers of RTW in capabilities.
I tested a few more battles... Boy was I in for a treat. The concerned historical crowd won't like this.
Lombardii Berserkers are really wild! First of all, they are giants, about a head taller than everybody else (great potential for modders I guess), naked upper body of course, and they carry massive twohanded swords with a big handle, almost a polearm.
They look the stuff of legends, but in combat they still surprise.
32 of these giants ripped a Levy Spearmen (big) unit to pieces with three losses. If they aren't interrupted they will perform a special melee attack where they sort of whirl and advance into the enemy formation. This sends the enemies flying like if they were hit by a chariot. That Levy Spearmen unit was destroyed in 20 seconds if not less.
Further these guys have warcry, but that makes them go into heroic morale (uncontrollable) and charges whatever they like. The same happens as soon as you attack with them.
So, don't send large weak units against them, especially not if they are very dense.
I though they were increadibly scary (and wondered if others had a similar giant unit). So I tested them and the Golden Band (not too good a unit) against some Saxon Hearth and Chosen Axemen. Surprise!!!
The Berserkers where limited in their maneuvers because they got interrupted all the time. Suddenly they ere just another good unit (but of very small size). At least they fought to the death. So it seems they are far from overpowered, but you need special tactics to deal with them (besides missiles).
Also tested the Burgundian Lancers. Now there we have a unit we can remember. Their charge was devastating, but their melee capabilities left a lot to be desired. Their charge bonus was 10. So I see a fine line here. The good chargers lack the strength to fight it out later on, and their charge isn't strong enough to win instantly. Meanwhile the strong cavalry (like Cataphracts and Clibanarii) don't have the thundering charge but will eventually win against most infantry. Tried it out against Comitatenses and it was a firm victory for the Cataphracts, in fact they split the legionaries up into small groups that were more easily handled. Yet the Comitatenses lasted until only a handful remained, andthe melee was prolongend and very furious. The Cataphracts were basically locked down in this fight for a long while.
Lastly, Wedge seems to be better now. But don't use it with weak cavalry. I nearly punched through the Comitatenses with Cataphracts. So I wonder what the Burgundians could do with it.
Doug-Thompson
09-27-2005, 14:32
Foot archers have no missile attack greater than 7, eh? Is the same true of horse archers?
edyzmedieval
09-27-2005, 14:37
Well, they survived, but their losses were heavy. They are a large unit in horde formation (not to confuse withhorde units) so their footprint was very big. The poor equites are good, but they are really rather light and not suitable to beat up spearmen.
They did a good show I think.
Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective. Losses can be rather substantial, but nothing like before. It could be argued it isn't enough of a nerf, but at least something was done. And most archers are very weak in melee. We are talking basic archers of RTW in capabilities.
I tested a few more battles... Boy was I in for a treat. The concerned historical crowd won't like this.
Lombardii Berserkers are really wild! First of all, they are giants, about a head taller than everybody else (great potential for modders I guess), naked upper body of course, and they carry massive twohanded swords with a big handle, almost a polearm.
They look the stuff of legends, but in combat they still surprise.
32 of these giants ripped a Levy Spearmen (big) unit to pieces with three losses. If they aren't interrupted they will perform a special melee attack where they sort of whirl and advance into the enemy formation. This sends the enemies flying like if they were hit by a chariot. That Levy Spearmen unit was destroyed in 20 seconds if not less.
Further these guys have warcry, but that makes them go into heroic morale (uncontrollable) and charges whatever they like. The same happens as soon as you attack with them.
So, don't send large weak units against them, especially not if they are very dense.
I though they were increadibly scary (and wondered if others had a similar giant unit). So I tested them and the Golden Band (not too good a unit) against some Saxon Hearth and Chosen Axemen. Surprise!!!
The Berserkers where limited in their maneuvers because they got interrupted all the time. Suddenly they ere just another good unit (but of very small size). At least they fought to the death. So it seems they are far from overpowered, but you need special tactics to deal with them (besides missiles).
Also tested the Burgundian Lancers. Now there we have a unit we can remember. Their charge was devastating, but their melee capabilities left a lot to be desired. Their charge bonus was 10. So I see a fine line here. The good chargers lack the strength to fight it out later on, and their charge isn't strong enough to win instantly. Meanwhile the strong cavalry (like Cataphracts and Clibanarii) don't have the thundering charge but will eventually win against most infantry. Tried it out against Comitatenses and it was a firm victory for the Cataphracts, in fact they split the legionaries up into small groups that were more easily handled. Yet the Comitatenses lasted until only a handful remained, andthe melee was prolongend and very furious. The Cataphracts were basically locked down in this fight for a long while.
Lastly, Wedge seems to be better now. But don't use it with weak cavalry. I nearly punched through the Comitatenses with Cataphracts. So I wonder what the Burgundians could do with it.
BI RULESSSS!!!!!!!! ~D
Duke Dick
09-27-2005, 14:42
Hi, just wondering, does anyone know if factions can be added now?
caesar44
09-27-2005, 14:45
How to install BI - with or with out 1.2 ? :hide:
Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective.
Sounds good. I wonder, does BI come with a sort of 1.3 patch to the vanilla game? If so, are the major changes you describe in the power of cavalry and archers "backdated" to affect the main campaign? [EDIT: ie are the unit stats for vanilla units altered to be in line with their BI counterparts.] Or are we going to have to live with overpowered cav and archers in the main game, but have a better balance in the BI sub-game?
Conqueror
09-27-2005, 14:56
Sounds like some good new features with some bad new units. But units should be easy to mod out of the game. So far it sounds like BI is overall an improvement to RTW. Please do post more when you have the time Kraxis :bow:
The fewer cities means a lot more field battles.
You know, I've been wondering if the mods people are making that push right up to the 200 province limit might not be going in the wrong direction. Maybe CA got this right. I'd rather see more decisive fields battles followed by fewer sieges in my campaigns.
When it comes to the number of provinces, I'm not certain that more is better.
But I won't have BI for a couple more days, so I guess the proof will be in the playing...
Foot archers have no missile attack greater than 7, eh? Is the same true of horse archers?
No, actually there are a few with 9, one of which are the Eastern Archers of the Eastern Empire.
The only bowarmed unit with a missile attack of over 10 is the Sassanid general with 11. A few horse archers including the Hun Elite have 9 while most have 8.
Meanwhile the infantry with missiles are dominated by the Roman infantry with up to 11 among the First Cohorts and Plumbatarii. Even the Francisca is only rated at 6.
Kerns will make a spectacular return alongside the famous Gallowglasses (bring on the complaints here). The Kerns are going to be one of three dedicated skirmishers, so apparently CA heard about the lack of use for that type of troops. But these skirmishers are all three fairly good.
Sadly there isn't a single javelinarmed cavalry.
Also, it seems I was a bit hasty with the Wedge. It works wonders at times, but most often it simply doesn't get anywhere. The cavalry unit will run in place and slowly push into the unit. So apparently it was suppoed to be better.
Btw, cavalry push all infantry back with a vengeance, even if losing badly.
Doug-Thompson
09-27-2005, 15:06
Horse archers work and have a higher attack than foot archers in a game that features the Huns. Christmas comes early for Doug. :santa3:
Does Cantabrian Circle still make HA largely immune to foot archers?
Kraxis any chance of seeing whether AI phalanx armies still break up on approach? e.g. start a vanilla campaign and force a fight between say Greeks and Macedons. It's a long shot, as I don't believe there are phalanxes in BI, but personally I'd put improving phalanx AI near the top of my "to improve list" (it's hard coded whereas cav and archers were already nerfed by modders)
Sounds good. I wonder, does BI come with a sort of 1.3 patch to the vanilla game? If so, are the major changes you describe in the power of cavalry and archers "backdated" to affect the main campaign? [EDIT: ie are the unit stats for vanilla units altered to be in line with their BI counterparts.] Or are we going to have to live with overpowered cav and archers in the main game, but have a better balance in the BI sub-game?
3rd Book of Expansion, verse 13-15
Rejoice in the glory that CA has showered upon thee;
for they told him "nay, the cavalry and archers shallt not stay the same. We haveth nerfeth them, so they no longer hold Our charges back."
And he said "Praise to thee!"
And they said "nay for we work for thyne money." So said they left the world in bevilderment. But he yelled after them "when shallt you return?" And they answereth "as soon as the money floweth."
Free of this burden the patrons were happy.
Well, I can tell you this much. Companions were bested by Libyan Spearmen head on, and Cataphracts were losing (but they had a fluke of advantage and won). A lot of former powerhouses on horses are seriously nerfed in charges. Praetorians, Sacred Band and Legionary cavalry have a mere 6 in chargebonus, both Cats and Comps have 9.
So no more sweeping the field with cavalry, or at least as easily.
Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!
Foresters have 11 in missile, while Cretans have a mere 7 (the same as the normal archers ~:confused:), they are clearly underpowered now. Pharaoh's are now at 10. All else are below 10.
I can't remember the pilum missile values, but Bull Warriors are 17, Urbans 18 and most others have 13 (Hastati 11 though).
Slingers are perhaps buffed? Vanilla is 4 and mercs are 9. Pretty nice there now.
SpencerH
09-27-2005, 15:52
3rd Book of Expansion, verse 13-15
Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!
Great! Another big complaint scratched off the list!
On the same track as my prior comment, I guess its reasonable for a cav unit to lose cohesion and effectiveness while fighting 'a horde' but I would expect 'a horde' to lose morale more quickly than trained soldiers. It does seem to me that you're saying that cav are much less effective against melee units than one might expect in 'reality'.
Kraxis any chance of seeing whether AI phalanx armies still break up on approach? e.g. start a vanilla campaign and force a fight between say Greeks and Macedons. It's a long shot, as I don't believe there are phalanxes in BI, but personally I'd put improving phalanx AI near the top of my "to improve list" (it's hard coded whereas cav and archers were already nerfed by modders)
Did a couple of Custom Battles. Me Julii with three of each of the three pre-Marian legionaries, and a general against 3 Hoplites, 3 Armoured Hoplites, 3 Heavy Peltasts and a general.
The hoplites presented nice front on the advance. They tried to keep their places. Sadly their general was a bit foolish and just before he engagement he ended up standing in front of the battleline. My Hastati made quick work of his unit with their pila. But the hoplites advanced relentlessly on me and kept their facing. But with six phalanxes and three Hastati, the swordmen ended up in the small gaps. This got he hoplites turning inwards on each other, creating three chevrons. I used that to my advantage while my Hastati were ripped to pieces.
So I would like to think the AI has gotten better, but so far I don't know. At least it doesn't redeploy right in front of me.
Just too bad I have suffered several cases of the 'infantry-cavalry' sickness on some enemy infantry. They charge in, fight a while, then pull back and recharge. Not good.
Neither is the fact that during my test of the Cantabrian Circle, the enemy archers didn't stop to shoot at me. Well, as long as it is only when there is only one unit.
Doug-Thompson
09-27-2005, 16:06
No more jumping horses!!!!
Even I, a cavalry nut, am VERY pleased about this.
Great! Another big complaint scratched off the list!
On the same track as my prior comment, I guess its reasonable for a cav unit to lose cohesion and effectiveness while fighting 'a horde' but I would expect 'a horde' to lose morale more quickly than trained soldiers. It does seem to me that you're saying that cav are much less effective against melee units than one might expect in 'reality'.
The horde formation is more open, but not that much. There isn't room for cavalrymen to move about inside it. And since the cavalry push so hard the formations is quickly compressed and then it is strong.
Doug-Thompson
09-27-2005, 16:09
I'm getting a kick out of the irony here.
R:TW is set in an era when disciplined infanty was dominant. Yet in the game, cavalry ruled all.
BI is based on the era when cavalry became ascendent, but now the cavalry is weaker.
Still, it all sounds like a lot of steps in the right direction.
The_Doctor
09-27-2005, 16:09
How does the horde thing work?
If you lose all your cities you get a horde?
Or is it a button that you press and you get hordes from all your cities, but you then lose them on the next turn?
So no more sweeping the field with cavalry, or at least as easily.
Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!
There is hope for multiplayer.
How does the horde thing work?
If you lose all your cities you get a horde?
Yup. Your entire population turns into Peasants primarely, but also a lot of interesting units. Some are specifically for the Horde others are merely copies of real units (but weaker in general).
Btw, the Hounds of Culann are also giants and have the same whirling attack. So beware of the Culann and the Berserkers. Kill them from afar.
Now I think I will go and start a real campaign (the last one I really neglected everythough outside the battlezones).
Taffy_is_a_Taff
09-27-2005, 16:52
just wondering:
how many units does each faction get?
are there new units for vanilla RTW?
Also, have you had a look at the Romano British yet? what sort of units do they get?
Did they end up being made playable or not?
Orda Khan
09-27-2005, 16:53
Horse archers work and have a higher attack than foot archers in a game that features the Huns. Christmas comes early for Doug. :santa3:
I'll second that ~;)
Thank you Kraxis, for your in depth information ~:)
Judging by these comments it sounds like BI is everything I was expecting it to be. Like Doug, I have always enjoyed employing many cav units, even in STW but I was never happy with their dominance of the field in RTW. A strong cav charge is good and so is the fact that they get stifled even if they eventually win. It seems that CA have come closer to the ideal, with balanced armies being the way to approach the game. Excellent news and a big 'Thank You' to CA for this. The few 'silly' units is something that has always been a part of the game and something that has always been easily remedied.
On a new note, how does the MP Lobby look? Has this been improved - as in more user friendly?
......Orda
Ok... Just to show the Berserkers in action against some Comitatenses.
The evil men...
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/860/berserkers0014kp.jpg
Contact! Or rather right after contact.
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2315/berserkers0031sc.jpg
Kickass!
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/266/berserkers0067cj.jpg
Seconds before victory... Just after the unit got its chevron.
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1853/berserkers0101do.jpg
And a few answers:
Orda, I haven't got an ID for Gamespy, never played MP for RTW (never felt like it), so I don't know.
And I wouldn't say the game is perfect, not at all. But a lot of stuff just seems better now. Also the speed of combat is slightly lower since most units are now much strong in defence than in attack.
Taffy, the Romano-British aren't playable on the campaign map, their territory is held by the Western Empire (363AD remember). But they might come forth from the darkness soon enough.
They are playable in MP and Custom Battle though. Their selection of units is rather balanced I would say. They have it all more or less, but the selection is rather limited.
How would you grade BI so far ??
King Ragnar
09-27-2005, 17:21
Man i cant wait formy copy, should be here soon got an e-mail from play.com :D
Craterus
09-27-2005, 17:33
What I want to know is will I need an install of original RTW to play it, or can I access it through BI? And can I access the RTW MP lobbies through BI?
I hope the AI can hold a phalanx line...reports so far are sketchy...
Kraxis this is all really great info. Thanks for this. Anyone have any idea where one could get BI in the US? :O
Btw, can you comment at all on the strategic AI? Has the computer gotten a little more aggressive? (crossing fingers)
Thanks again.
caesar44
09-27-2005, 19:01
:help: :help: Please , BI needs 1.2 or not ? :help: :help:
:help: :help: Please , BI needs 1.2 or not ? :help: :help:
No it doesn't.
just like 1.2 doesn't need 1.1, 1.3 doesn't need 1.2.
Doug-Thompson
09-27-2005, 19:20
On a trivial note, the new "bronzed" look of the interface is nice.
I most humbly beg you to do a pair of test campaigns and confirm for us that the save/load monster is well and truly dead. 15 turns with just end turn, screenie of the minimap, then 15 turns with a ctrl-s ctrl-l end turn sequence and a screenie. If I can't tell which screenshot is which I'll be as happy as a little schoolgirl ~:cheers:
Jochi Khan
09-27-2005, 19:53
Man i cant wait formy copy, should be here soon got an e-mail from play.com :D
Heh...so did I today. :charge:
Jochi
Steppe Merc
09-27-2005, 20:30
Are all the factions usuable (like in a mod)?
I most humbly beg you to do a pair of test campaigns and confirm for us that the save/load monster is well and truly dead. 15 turns with just end turn, screenie of the minimap, then 15 turns with a ctrl-s ctrl-l end turn sequence and a screenie. If I can't tell which screenshot is which I'll be as happy as a little schoolgirl ~:cheers:
That would not help much.
The Western Empire starts out with several cities far into the angry face, even at low taxes. Most often it gets the Western Rebels, and in different places. Then there are the Hordes that walk in different directions each time because they spawn in different places after being ousted.
I did notice in a Saxon testrun (before I realized all this) that there was indeed a massive roll of Hordes going on down south.
The Huns and Vandals each sent the Burgundians and Sarmatians running. The Sarmatians went to Constantinople and took it (gasp), while the Burgundians went for the Franks (but never got far enough). The Vandals and Huns now turned on the poor Goths, and gave them a good kicking, sending them packing further south. None, but the Sarmatians (Constantinople) actually settled anywhere, they just sacked each settlement (and they get a pretty big rebel army thereafter).
The map was full of horde armies plundering. The Eastern Empire was in shambles as the hordes fought among each other (to the future luck of the Eastern Empire I guess). It was beautiful to see history played out like this. I liked it very much.
It seems the AI is more aggressive now. In my primary campaign as the Eastern Empire, the Sassanids (enemies from the get-go) sent several armies into my territory at once. While I have good armies around, they simply can't match this (have to keep a lot at home because I have just reformed the statereligion to christianity) and I am forced to wait for them to get close so I can sally.
And after looking at the map without the FOW I can safely say that both the siege-bug and the wandering faction members are gone. Mostly they sit at home or are on campaign in foreing territory. A most prudent behaviour. I feared this lacked before, but now it seems it is indeed there.
I like it so far. The good certainly outweigh the bad at this point. But don't expect some kind of revolution. It is merely a better RTW, how much better is yet to be seen, but I have gotten my hopes up a bit.
The phalanx seems to be problematic still, but less so now. The AI as noted still has some problems in unit 1v1 but it doesn't reform the entire line within chargedistance, or perhaps I have been lucky so far.
Not only has archery been nerfed a lot, but it seems it has been nerfed perhaps too much.
I was trying to beat up some rebels containing 1 Veteranii, 2 Goth Spearmen an 1 Rebel General (the same as we remember). I had 1 Eastern Archers, 1 Legio Lanciarii (legionaries with spears, pretty good but certainly not as good as Comitatenses), 1 Equites Auxilia and a general.
I expected that the archers could weaken the Veteranii (suitably placed in the center of the enemy line) enough to make my Lanciarii get the upper hand on them. Well, that didn't happen.
They lost a grand total of 1 man, and that was the general's unit. I had exhausted my archers for no gain. And in the ensuing melee I lost badly, though I mauled the Veteranii (they are nasty mercs, imagine a unit of Legionary Cohorts as mercs and available right away).
Germanvs
09-27-2005, 21:35
That would not help much.
The Western Empire starts out with several cities far into the angry face, even at low taxes. Most often it gets the Western Rebels, and in different places. Then there are the Hordes that walk in different directions each time because they spawn in different places after being ousted.
I guess you could do the testrun on the old RTW. If the load/save bug is fixed, it should become visible there.
SpencerH
09-27-2005, 21:36
Not only has archery been nerfed a lot, but it seems it has been nerfed perhaps too much.
They lost a grand total of 1 man, and that was the general's unit. I had exhausted my archers for no gain.
I dont like the sound of that.
Quick, run some tests. ~;)
kraxis, thanks for informative posts! One part of BI that no-one has mentioned or raised yet is the performance of the AI during siege assaults. For me, this was easily where the AI was at its poorest. I don't suppose you have experience or info on this so far?
Particular areas being:
-inept AI decisions during assaults on stone-walls. For instance the AI would regularly expend a unit trying in vain to use a ram on the gate of stone walls.
-buggy use of ladders and siege towers. Ladders failing to reach walls, units failing to use siege equipment after the initial unit, etc...
-assaults when gates or a section of wall are pre-opened, e.g. via a spy. In 1.2 the AI general would always sprint to the entrance and be slaughtered before the rest of the army reached the opening.
-routing units getting stuck on walls.
On a more general note, does the AI attempt multiple-stack attacks on the campaign map?
Cheers
J
I expected that the archers could weaken the Veteranii (suitably placed in the center of the enemy line) enough to make my Lanciarii get the upper hand on them. Well, that didn't happen.
They lost a grand total of 1 man, and that was the general's unit.
Um, but legionary cohorts are pretty formidably armoured even in vanilla. I remember the shock of meeting them with pre-marian units. My Roman archers that had been wiping out swathes of enemies made little impression.
Sounds like we will have to use the missile tactics required for RTR 6.1 - shoot the unshielded side, preferably shoot them in the back, shoot them when they move (apparently the shield only works when stationary) etc. Archers are generally best used against unarmoured enemies, not armoured infantry (in RTR 6.1 they work well against horses).
Taffy_is_a_Taff
09-27-2005, 22:17
thanks for your reply to my questions, I was also wondering about the following:
how wide are the unit choices for the BI factions?
are there new units for vanilla?
Alexanderofmacedon
09-27-2005, 22:36
Can somebody explain to me how BI works? Is it something that you buy to add on to RTW or what? How much will it cost? Sheesh, I'm lost...
Zatoichi
09-27-2005, 22:43
Can somebody explain to me how BI works? Is it something that you buy to add on to RTW or what? How much will it cost? Sheesh, I'm lost...
Now, I detect a certain amount of sarcasm there... However, I do actually want to know (yes, a whole 3 days before I get the game and find out for myself) where it installs to, seeing as the default RTW directory is under the Activision name, and I'm guessing the BI add on will not live there. So does this mean that unlike MTW:VI, RTW:BI will need to swap disks to play each game? Not a huge issue, but I'm interested by odd things...
Edit: Hmmm - and one of those odd things I find interesting is how comes my quote marks above came out all German? A Hun invasion of the org?
Alexanderofmacedon
09-27-2005, 22:46
Now, I detect a certain amount of sarcasm there...
Not meant...
Zatoichi
09-27-2005, 22:56
Not meant...
Oops! My humble appologies sir! I guess I just assumed everyone has been as obsessed with all this BI stuff as me from the get go!
As for the bizarre disappearing Germanic quote stuff in my previous post... well, maybe I should have me a little lie down! It was there, I hit refresh, it was back to English. Well, it matters not.
Not meant...
Um, in that case I wish I could undelete my post. :embarassed:
Barbarian Invasion is an expansion pack that you can buy to add on to RTW. It will give you a campaign covering the period when the Roman Empire fractured into two in the face of various barbarian invasions TM (Hun, Goth, Vandal etc) and Rome itself ultimately fell. In addition, it will patch the existing campaign, changing some of the game balance etc in rather significant ways judging from b]Kraxis's[/b] early posts.
A preview is here:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/rometotalwarexpansion/preview_6132682.html
As to the price, best to look at amazon.com. They were selling it for around £26 in the UK, IIRC, when I preordered it.
Steppe Merc
09-27-2005, 23:28
The archers, are they nerfed to do a hard coded thing, or are their stats just lower?
Jochi Khan
09-28-2005, 00:05
As to the price, best to look at amazon.com. They were selling it for around £26 in the UK, IIRC, when I preordered it.
Even better, it's now down to £14.99
Jochi
Red Harvest
09-28-2005, 00:13
The archers, are they nerfed to do a hard coded thing, or are their stats just lower?
I did some posts on this way back in RTW. Someone might have to dig those up and do a comparison in custom battle. The archers should indeed not have much impact vs. armoured units. We have to keep in mind the various upgrades as well...in RTW, +1 experience gave +1 missile attack, and then there were upgrades available. Vanilla archers should be largely useless vs. armoured/shielded units. It should take advanced units and/or considerable upgrades to start knocking those guys down. Now archers on high ground/wall etc. should have a bit more impact.
I have experienced a few sieges and sallies now, though no sieges as the defender.
The sad fact is that the AI isn't particularly adept at it still. :embarassed: But at least its better normal capabilities does make up for a very small part of it in sallies.
Having tried the archers out some more in other battles it is clear that they should indeed not be used against armoured enemies. Those Veteranii took another full round with only one man killed (they are not Legionary Cohorts, just comparable in strength to their own time, and they are extremely popular among the generic rebels). But even Levy Spearmen are hard to kill from afar. So it has become a game onto itself to shoot at the right unit at the right time.
They still gain +1 to ranges combat with each experience point, but my feeling is that they are now far less accurate than before. So it seems they have been hardcoded a bit towards lower accuracy, but their stats are also quite a bit weaker.
I'm having real trouble hanging on to a settlement I captured from the Western Rebels (Salona). It is almost fully pagan, and I'm christian, meanwhile my governor there is pagan too. That is one bad mix. Even with daily games, low taxes and a large garrison it still only has 25% loyalty. GAH! Religion is quite important it seems (now the explaination that pagans and christians dislike each other in the manual makes sense). And it seems that my christians (orthodox) aren't too friendly with the Arians and the papists either. I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have chosen paganism, their temples are way better.
Some things have come to light with more battles:
The enemy general do at times charge in, but only when there are archers out front. Have only experienced it with rebels with the Rebel General unit.
There are actually jumping horses, but they are very far between. I ahve in fact only seen it twice (meaning two horses) by now, and in both cases it was charges into the rear. So I guess it has been nerfed seriously, to the point where it might serve the eyecandy it was supposed to have been.
Something people will also like. There are no more 2 meter charges, meaning no more cavalry charging with full power from short to no distance from target. The charge needs distance to work at all.
You can retrain a unit to a higher experience level. If you advance the barracks to a higher level and that level grants a bonus you can retrain said unit for a hefty price. I can't remember if you could do that in RTW, but I know that it didn't cost money. So it seems that free experience is over.
Sadly I found the first bug already. It is nothing special really, nor problematic. The Scholae Palatina has a graphical or model glitch. When they turn their heads in idleness or during the speech, only the top half of the head turns. It looks rather disturbing from afar.
The Clibanarii are nasty!!!! They are like upgraded and better Cataphract Archers. Sassanid generals have Clibanarii Immortals which are even worse with the highest missile stats for any archer as well as a strong charge, maces and 2 HP. Scary!
Don't think there are any new units for vanilla. Haven't seen any, and I think I saw a CA dev comment on it some time ago. I could be wrong, but to be honest that part hasn't got my priority right now. ~D
You mentioned before that the Infantry did behave as cavalry running back and forth, was this jjust in the RTW battle or also in the BI battle?
I thought they fixed that bug is why I ask.
Also if you know how to add the phalanx attribute it would be nice if you did so with some spear unit then test them in BI and see if what they do?
As it seems some of the AI improvements is only related to BI and not RTW as a whole like a 1.3 patch. :-(
Also can you should us I picture of the folders/files in the BI directory? I am curious to see how much they changed, atleast it would give us a small Idea. They said anything not in these folders automatically goes to the root RTW directory. Maybe if you tried installing into a NONE RTW folder to see what files are changed OUTSIDE of the BI directory and into thr RTW directory.
LT1956
You mentioned before that the Infantry did behave as cavalry running back and forth, was this jjust in the RTW battle or also in the BI battle?
I thought they fixed that bug is why I ask.
So did I, but it seems they have not, or perhaps it has reappeared for some odd reason. Maybe they did fix the bug, but another jumped right in. I don't know,but I do know that at times in Custom Battle the infantry do pull back from engagement to charge in again.
The rest... too much. I'm not even certain it is allowed to show what's on the inside of the folder. Files are protected, at least until the world market opens up. So you will have to wait for your copy.
Alexander the Pretty Good
09-28-2005, 01:47
Sadly I found the first bug already. It is nothing special really, nor problematic. The Scholae Palatina has a graphical or model glitch. When they turn their heads in idleness or during the speech, only the top half of the head turns. It looks rather disturbing from afar.
What's really disturbing is that that was in the BI demo (either for that unit or another). AND that there were posts about it, here on the .Org at least!
~:eek:
Kraxis, the files is what are protected you can give the files but you can show us a picture of your desktop with the BI folder open. lol There is NOTHING illegal about that. Anyway you do know that TODAY is the word wide release date. Infact my copy ont be in until thursday.
I was hoping to see what folders and to what extent of files I may have to use. Your being overly cautious on that one. lol
Anyway the cavalry bug ONLY shows up on the Captain units if you test it they are the only unit that THINKS they are cavalry. but if the captain is a Spear unit it will not act that way. Wierd eh? lol
Lt
Yeah, I suspected as much from the fact that they have only happened in custom battles 1v1.
About being overly cautious, perhaps, but rather that than getting some problems for either myself or the .org, especially when the game is out so soon afterwards.
In any case I have taken the screenshots. There isn't much to say about it as everything has been organized much more than previously. Now nothing is out in the root, and BI has its own folder.
https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9025/berserkers0124rk.jpg
And the BI folder.
https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8422/berserkers0136yu.jpg
So nothing to see really. But I guess it will be vastly more easy to mod this way.
edyzmedieval
09-28-2005, 12:29
Kraxis,
Does the add_money from romeshell stil work?!
Have you noticed any change in the frequency or strength of rebels? The endless weak rebels stacks in RTW are starting to get me down.
A.Saturnus
09-28-2005, 14:40
Not only has archery been nerfed a lot, but it seems it has been nerfed perhaps too much.
I´m playing a custom mod for RTW 1.2 where all defense values are doubled. For vanilla archers anything that has a large shield is invulnerable from the front but if you use the archers or even slingers right you can still get a good number of kills so I´m not much concerned.
Have you noticed any change in the frequency or strength of rebels? The endless weak rebels stacks in RTW are starting to get me down.
They are quite strong now. Well, considering you have to keep the armies at home all the time (unrest is a serious issue). They might not be big armies but they are fairly good, often containing mercenaries. Especially the Veteranii are an opponent to treat with care. They can easily be beaten, but they are not the weaklings we are used to.
Other units are faction units, such as Goth Spearmen and so on. I will call them first level true warriors, not just the dregs as before (but peasants and other crap still find their way into rebel armies).
Haven't tested any cheats but the FOW.
Btw, some of you must have noticed in the demo, but shields are better now. Big ones add 6 and the smaller ones add either 3 or 4. So that could also be a reason for the stronger defence against arrows. Perhaps shields have now a special bonus against missiles? As it is dramatical how effective they are from the front (certain units are in total not that strong even with the shields, yet they are not affected too much by archery).
Mongoose
09-28-2005, 15:34
How much harder is it?
How much harder is it?
Well, playing as the Eastern Empire I have managed to take two settlements, and have then managed to lose the first one to the Eastern Rebels (my army was just kicked out, so I just ignored the settlement). And I have played what... 7-8 years now. I'm under pressure from the Sassanids, the army I sent to take Hatra got mauled badly (but I managed to save it).
I would say that it is interesting to have a developed empire with good armies from the start. But I'm looking on with anxiety to what is going on in Dacia, the Goths are close to being kicked out (made into a horde) and the Huns and Vandals have yet to settle anywhere, and I can see them trudge around just north of the border, meanwhile they must have devided as both are at war with the Sarmatians, which will also turn into a horde is beaten. My armies simply can't handle such strong enemies right now.
Doug-Thompson
09-28-2005, 15:56
I would say that it is interesting to have a developed empire with good armies from the start.
That's a major chance. You still started out from scratch in Medieval: Total War when playing the late period.
That's a major chance. You still started out from scratch in Medieval: Total War when playing the late period.
Exactly...
CA has made a masterstroke here. They have made it a challenge while you still have fairly good armies (most of the empire is not very well developed though), large tracts of land and a very strong economy.
The same is true for the Western Empire, though it is even harder hit at loyalty and its economy stinks. You can expect if you play it, for it to collapse quite soon if you attempt to hold it all in face of rebellions and invasions.
Mongoose
09-28-2005, 16:15
Thanks for the quick answer! all im concerned about now are the MP balances issues. if they fixed those, im probably going to buy it.
Kraxis, have you had a chance yet to test autoresolve and diplomacy?
Thanks for all your input btw, if I'd had the game already I probably would have forgotten the rest of the world including this forum even exist! ~:cheers:
Kraxis, have you had a chance yet to test autoresolve and diplomacy?
Thanks for all your input btw, if I'd had the game already I probably would have forgotten the rest of the world including this forum even exist! ~:cheers:
Well, I play a little onlinegame so I have to check back now and then. And I did like to brag a little.
I wantto tell people this. It is not a perfect game, not still. But it simply feels a lot better. The battles are still easy to win for any veteran, but the AI is a bit better though it suffers from a few faults.
And do make sure you have some sort of a navy, rebel fleets are as numerous as the rebel armies.
AmbrosiusAurelianus
09-28-2005, 19:22
Kraxis, are there any new historical battles, if you do not mind me asking?
How much harder is it?
I started with WRE, and I can tell you it`s hell much harder. I`ve played maybe 10 years(20 turns) and have -80 000 denarii in treasury, decreasing with another 9000 denarii per turn. Also I came early at war with ERE after trying to exchange map information with them(they cancelled the alliance an marched into my lands the very next turn). Now they`re besieging me with a fullstack army in the east.
All this might might be because I`m a poor strategist; apparently my money situation is a bit extreme. But I`ll say it`s harder, at least for WRE.
Kraxis, have you had a chance yet to test autoresolve and diplomacy?
I think I`ve discovered a bug/feature in diplomacy:
When you offers another faction an alliance(at least a barbarian) and they refuse it, you cannot talk anymore with them for that turn.
I am not completely sure whether this was bad luck at my side or a 'feature'.
Also the deal with ERE I mentioned above looks like alliances is not really improved.
I started with WRE, and I can tell you it`s hell much harder. I`ve played maybe 10 years(20 turns) and have -80 000 denarii in treasury, decreasing with another 9000 denarii per turn. Also I came early at war with ERE after trying to exchange map information with them(they cancelled the alliance an marched into my lands the very next turn). Now they`re besieging me with a fullstack army in the east.
All this might might be because I`m a poor strategist; apparently my money situation is a bit extreme. But I`ll say it`s harder, at least for WRE.
Not at all... When I ran a quick testrun of them I lost money really fast as well. So I think that is part of the challenge of playing the WRE.
Btw, that the ERE cancelled their treaty with you is strange, for I experienced the very same as the ERE with the WRE. They cancelled our treaty when I asked them for their map... Perhaps there is a little flag that says when the two empires talk their alliance falls apart? Or perhaps a bug?
I think I`ve discovered a bug/feature in diplomacy:
When you offers another faction an alliance(at least a barbarian) and they refuse it, you cannot talk anymore with them for that turn.
I am not completely sure whether this was bad luck at my side or a 'feature'.
Also the deal with ERE I mentioned above looks like alliances is not really improved.
Noticed that too...
I think I will start another thread with the bugs.
Oh, an the Historical Battles? Well, they are both new and not, they are the same as in the demo.
edyzmedieval
09-28-2005, 21:28
Thanks for the input guys.
Unfortunately, I was hoping that the diplomacy was improved. It's an important part of TW games.
Now the Rebels will be a problem.
And the battles are still easy. Now that I don't like. In RTW, battles even on very hard are easy.
Alexanderofmacedon
09-28-2005, 22:19
Do you think they'll have BI idiot proof? I hope you can pop in the disk and it will do it itself, because I don't want to have to read the instructions or learn how to mod the files.
antisocialmunky
09-28-2005, 23:52
Q: Did CA fix the Testudo to be a. useful and b. not bugged against phalanxes? I think it'll be depressing, but not totally unexpected, if they forgot to fix the Testudo ability to literally 'march through' phalanxes.
Red Harvest
09-29-2005, 00:11
Any changes to the weather?
1. Is weather more noticeable in battle now (used to be hard to tell it was raining.)
2. Does weather have any impact on the battles themselves (fire arrows, archery, etc.)
3. More storms/floods etc. damaging fleets and others? They were rather infrequent and less than random before.
Any changes to naval warfare?
1. Is it still possible to move a whole stack with 1 boat?
2. Any changes in the requirements of blockading etc?
3. Have admirals been worked out?
Any changes to the weather?
1. Is weather more noticeable in battle now (used to be hard to tell it was raining.)
2. Does weather have any impact on the battles themselves (fire arrows, archery, etc.)
3. More storms/floods etc. damaging fleets and others? They were rather infrequent and less than random before.
Any changes to naval warfare?
1. Is it still possible to move a whole stack with 1 boat?
2. Any changes in the requirements of blockading etc?
3. Have admirals been worked out?
A1-2: Seems not to be any changes. I have experienced sandstorms and rain but nothing out of the ordinary, and the weather doesn't seem to do much.
A3: I think so. Experienced a flash flood in Ephesus.
B1: Yes, would think so. But I haven't had the need to move that much yet.
B2: Nah, not that I ahve noticed.
B3: What do you mean? I haven't had much combat at sea (due to me only sharing the Med with the Western Empire and the Berbers) so I wouldn't know.
Red Harvest
09-29-2005, 05:46
B3: What do you mean? I haven't had much combat at sea (due to me only sharing the Med with the Western Empire and the Berbers) so I wouldn't know.
Thanks. I was thinking about their stars, and stacking issues. Both were problems in RTW. Sometimes you couldn't stack, and I remember doing a hack so that they could get stars. Can't remember if 1.2 got the stars working or not.
Doug-Thompson
09-29-2005, 06:24
Archery doesn't appear to me to be nerfed so much, Kraxis, as that armor protection and shields are more effective. I had the same experience you did firing at a bodyguard unit, but the unarmored light cavalry unit right beside it died like flies. Also, even units with shields seem to suffer if the unit firing at them is on a hill. That may have been the result of the target Goth unit being tired, however. We'll see.
Cantabrian circle still yields virtual immunity to foot archers for cav archers. This is very bad news for unarmored foot archers. Had a battle tonight where 240 foot "raider" archers were wiped out by about 170 low-rent Hun horde cav archers. The Huns lost less than 20 men.
Many of the horde units have "horde" formation, just like peasants in R:TW. Actually, this is a very good formation for HA. No corners, compact, a good use of their all-round fire. Very handy.
============
Re: Hordes. Conquer one settlement, half your "horde" units become population for the city. You don't choose which half, either.
Conquer a second settlement, half of what's left join that city.
Conquer a third, no horde units left.
Therefore, it seems pretty obvious that, as a horde, you'd want to pick out which three provinces you want, then sack bordering factions and their cities before conquering all three in one turn.
Thanks. I was thinking about their stars, and stacking issues. Both were problems in RTW. Sometimes you couldn't stack, and I remember doing a hack so that they could get stars. Can't remember if 1.2 got the stars working or not.
Stars work in 1.2
And other one is bad feature that prevenets losing admirals when by joining with other admirals.
Thank you for the effort! Overall it sounds promising, so I'll probably buy it when it comes.
Just one thing from a fellow dane (others just ignore please):
Hvor har du skaffet den, og hvad kostede den? ~:)
Gå ind på spilpriser.dk og kig. Det gjorde jeg da jeg så denne tråd ~:)
CBR
Princeps
09-29-2005, 13:15
Could someone tell me the campaign goals for each faction? I'm all ears :ears:
I know that for WRE you must keep your lands what you already have or something like that, but I dont know nothing about the others.
Huns: 10 regions incl Baetica, Africa, Northern Italy
Goths: 16 incl Thracia and Northen Italy
Sarmatians: 15 incl Pannonia, Illyrium et Dalmatia and Colchis
Vandals: 10 incl Baetica, Africa and Northen Italy
Franks: 20 incl Lugdinensis, Aquitania and Narbonensis
Saxons: 18 incl Tribus Saxones, Britannia Superior and Belgica
Sassanids: 20 incl Aegyptus, Palaestina and Thracia
Alemanni: 20 incl Germania Superior, Pannonia and Northen Italy
ERE: 34 incl Thracia, Aegyptus, Northen Italy and Africa
WRE: 34 incl Northen Italy, Africa, Taraconensis and Thracia
CBR
SpencerH
09-29-2005, 13:58
Lets have some comments on the naval aspects (blockades, ping-pong, etc) please. IMO it was one of the weakest components of RTW.
Princeps
09-29-2005, 14:14
Thank you, CBR :bow:
Bob the Insane
09-29-2005, 15:39
Lets have some comments on the naval aspects (blockades, ping-pong, etc) please. IMO it was one of the weakest components of RTW.
The start of the game does not appear to have much naval activity so it is hard to say.
There are pirates though, freaking everywhere and they are kicking arse...
Orda Khan
09-29-2005, 16:49
Cantabrian circle still yields virtual immunity to foot archers for cav archers. This is very bad news for unarmored foot archers.
.......And a very good historical feature. Cantabrian circle, while devastating against archers, leaves HA vulnerable to light cav attack. I would have been disappointed if archers alone were able to deal effectively with HA
.......Orda
This may have been addressed in a preview, but how does the game deal with the Roman use of barbarians in their army - were they called foederati? Are they supposed to be just represented by mercs? (fair enough, I guess).
.......And a very good historical feature. Cantabrian circle, while devastating against archers, leaves HA vulnerable to light cav attack. I would have been disappointed if archers alone were able to deal effectively with HA
If one takes light cav to counter cav archers, the cav archers never have to use the Cantabrian circle and can use the Parthian shot against chasing cav which can apparently never catch them. If one takes foot archers, the cav archers use Cantabrian circle. So it would seem that the cav archers don't have a counter unit except for another cav archer because you certainly cannot afford to take two units to counter each cav archer. You can take armored units as a counter depending on how costly they are and how effective arrows are against them. Heavily armored units will be tactically limited to defending.
Orda Khan
09-29-2005, 18:22
It's the historical conundrum that sedentary armies faced against the many steppe armies that terrorised Europe.
As for counter units and Cantabrian circle ... Again a historical problem and wrecklessly pursuing HA with cav had disasterous consequences. On the other hand, without Cantabrian circle, archers are a match for HA, which is why the HA must employ this method of attack. I would attempt a wide flank with cav and then try to trap them between these flanking units and a direct cav attack from the main line. Not easy admitted, but it should not be easy. If there was a straightforward counter unit the HA factions would be as weak as the Golden Horde was in MTW
.......Orda
Many of the horde units have "horde" formation, just like peasants in R:TW. Actually, this is a very good formation for HA. No corners, compact, a good use of their all-round fire. Very handy.
I noticed that when I modded the Parthian and most merc horse archers to be in horde. It is suddenly very easy to control the horse archers as they just turn and run to every command, no more formation turns. And of course it is superior in the chase due to the larger more open footprint.
I have noticed a couple of 'fixed' issues, be they good or bad.
You can't move anything at all across the redzone on the battlefield. Previously units would run some distance into it while chasing or a few individuals simply couldn't stop. Now the border is solid and the units get plastered against it like a wall.
There is no more pilum-lag when you are out of javelins and click to attack (sword). Previously the unit would first try to throw its ranged weapon, now it just attacks. Nice.
Rebel fleets will blockade you for a single round, then go away, then come back and so on. Effective way of staying alive while still very disruptive. They also flee from superior fleets if they get the chance.
Plumbatarii are quite simply the best infantry out there! They are Comitatenses with, count this, 14 plumbata! And they have good range (70) and the best javelin attack out there + AP. You simply do not want allow them to carry out this attack on you. I ripped a unit of Merc Veteranii from 80 to 15 with their plumbata. Naturally the melee was over within seconds. And the best, they are no more expensive than Comitatenses.
Trust me these guys rules in wall-defense, first they deplete the enemy infantry with plumabata then they kill the last few survivors when they get up to them.
In general thrown stuff has greater range while the better archers have now a range of 160 as opposed to 170.
Only certain horse archers have the Cantabrian Circle, for instance the Hippo-toxotai of the Eastern Empire don't have it, neither do the Mercenary Sarmatian Archers. But every light HA has it it seems.
I still think that archery has been nerfed. Perhaps not as much as I first believed (it has been given the advantage of better range from higher places, something that lacked before), but I have several times now experienced battles where my good Eastern Archers have only managed to get singular kills for the use of their entire quiver, even against light cavalry like the Moorish Raiders. I am certain that archers now have less accurate shots.
Btw, did horse archers have more arrows than foot archers before (now it is 40 to 30)?
As for counter units and Cantabrian circle ... Again a historical problem and wrecklessly pursuing HA with cav had disasterous consequences. On the other hand, without Cantabrian circle, archers are a match for HA, which is why the HA must employ this method of attack. I would attempt a wide flank with cav and then try to trap them between these flanking units and a direct cav attack from the main line. Not easy admitted, but it should not be easy. If there was a straightforward counter unit the HA factions would be as weak as the Golden Horde was in MTW.
Yes, I see what you are saying. It takes more complex tactics than simply using a single unit to counter these eastern HA. We're too accustomed to the method in the older games of using a foot archer as a counter to HA. I hope the speed of the game doesn't preclude using complex tactics.
The method you suggest is what Alexander the Great used until he incorporated fast HA in his own army. It requires that the flanking cav be stronger in melee than the HA they are trying to drive before them. Units such as hunnic elite warriors, are quite a bit stronger in melee than western light cav. When upgraded to equal cost, light melee cav such as equites, which have no ranged attack, are equal in melee to hunnic elite warriors. This means there has to be some melee compensation to the western faction to equalize them with the eastern faction so that stronger melee cav can be sent to the flanks while still having strong enough infantry to hold the line. The improved performance of spears is going to be very important so that a frontal charge by the eastern army can't quickly rout the western infantry while their cavalry is off making the wide flanking maneuver.
The improved performance of spears is going to be very important so that a frontal charge by the eastern army can't quickly rout the western infantry while their cavalry is off making the wide flanking maneuver.
Yeah forgot to mention this, but spearunits now have a special hidden ability and that is the one that drains the charge of cavalry quite well. Take a look in the descr file and you will see a new attribute called 'spear' that means the unit can resist cavalry charges head on (to an extent of course). That makes spearunits important in keeping cavalry at bay. But most spearunits only get a +4 to attack against cavalry, a few get +6 or +8.
This has unfortunately not been transferred directly to RTW, so I don't know if it fits. But at least the chargevalue is way down and the armour bonus is gone.
This may have been addressed in a preview, but how does the game deal with the Roman use of barbarians in their army - were they called foederati? Are they supposed to be just represented by mercs? (fair enough, I guess).
There are units called foederati infantry and foederati cavalry avaible to WRE from training facilities and as mercenary(to all factions), as you might have found out already.
Doug-Thompson
09-30-2005, 19:18
Btw, did horse archers have more arrows than foot archers before (now it is 40 to 30)?
Hmmm. Good question.
Does anybody else think that horse archers move around a lot more now, even when not in Cantabrian circle. My Huns keep moving back and forth even when the target is not moving.
Does anybody else think that horse archers move around a lot more now, even when not in Cantabrian circle. My Huns keep moving back and forth even when the target is not moving.
Yes! But I have only been on the recieving end of the Huns, and I can tell you that their AI is vastly improved! I'll start another thread about it because it simply deserves it.
Btw, the 'all-rush-the-gate-it-is-open-due-to-spies' feature/bug has been addressed. This should be a great relief to all.
Spies now kill the oil as well (best change to this). But when I had a Sassanid army attack me when they had a spy on the inside and the gates were opened (damn that bastard), I deployed to repel a rush at the gate. Being the usual suspective person that I am I took notice to some ladders and towers quite far away and posted some troops on the walls to be ready, just in case.
Turned out that was the most brilliant move that day. Two thirds of the Sassanid army rushed the gate, where I expected them to be boiled, not so. The rest took their ladders and towers and attacked far far far away from the gate. Boy... That was tough! My few reserves could only just handle it, and in one case it could not. I had to rush a unit of Lanciarii to the rescue before the enemy reached the plaza. Pleasant to see the AI act so sensible.
If it hasn`t been mentioned already, the AI automatically now turns on their siege towers to 'fire at will'. This only worked for missilie uinits in RTW wich already has 'fire at will' as a standard setting, and has a devastating effect on your soldiers if they are standing on a Large or Epic stonewall. Also the AI now doesn`t wait until the first unit has been completely exterminated before sending up another in the same tower\ladder.
My battle experience is on Medium; does the Hard and VH settings now work properly? And does they add to AI intelligence?
First off, thank you for this thread Kraxis, it's very informative and I trust your fair judgment.
I'd like to know a few extra things, though. Does the AI withdraw from battle often? Do its units run back and forth endlessly until they're exhausted. Last but not least, do you confirm that AI units who aren't set on FAW by default won't throw their javelins?
First off, thank you for this thread Kraxis, it's very informative and I trust your fair judgment.
I'd like to know a few extra things, though. Does the AI withdraw from battle often? Do its units run back and forth endlessly until they're exhausted. Last but not least, do you confirm that AI units who aren't set on FAW by default won't throw their javelins?
I have not experienced a single withdrawal yet, I mean a withdrawal without some form of combat.
Units do at times mill back and forth, but not so much in front of your units as going from their lines and back again if you position yourself close but not close enough. This happens mostly with rebels as you are often stronger than them. The unit will charge to get rid of that ranged unit, AI sees it has no chance and pulls it back, ranged unit is once again a priority, AI oncve again sees the futility... ect ect. That happens, but it seems the faction armies are less likely to do this.
Yes, no unit other than siege equipment, that is set to FAW off will fire at you. It has always been like that I think. At least I remember the few rebel Hastati of RTW never threw their pila at me. Hopefully this will be noticed.
Ok, a few questions and false information from me earlier:
RTW units have the new spear attribute as well, it just wasn't mentioned in the explaination for the file, meaning those that have it can resist cavalry charges to some degree. That is good.
Ranges and ammo for ranegs units are far more diverse than in RTW. Nothing can be said with certainty. Most horse archers have 40 arrows, but a few have only 30 (generally the better ones, or rather those that can fight in melee).
Yes, no unit other than siege equipment, that is set to FAW off will fire at you. It has always been like that I think. At least I remember the few rebel Hastati of RTW never threw their pila at me. Hopefully this will be noticed.
That's worrying because units with javelins in vanilla RTW do throw them before charging. Hopefully, it's not hard-codded and modders can fix this bug.
That's worrying because units with javelins in vanilla RTW do throw them before charging. Hopefully, it's not hard-codded and modders can fix this bug.
Hopefully it is not complete, as I said I only remember it on rebels, and most javelinarmed troops I face are Verteranii rebels.
In any case they should actually throw their weapons if we try to charge them or just cometoo close. Effectively, tunr on FAW for all AI units unless the AI can handle them.
Garvanko
10-01-2005, 20:50
Btw, the 'all-rush-the-gate-it-is-open-due-to-spies' feature/bug has been addressed. This should be a great relief to all.
Spies now kill the oil as well (best change to this). But when I had a Sassanid army attack me when they had a spy on the inside and the gates were opened (damn that bastard), I deployed to repel a rush at the gate. Being the usual suspective person that I am I took notice to some ladders and towers quite far away and posted some troops on the walls to be ready, just in case.
Turned out that was the most brilliant move that day. Two thirds of the Sassanid army rushed the gate, where I expected them to be boiled, not so. The rest took their ladders and towers and attacked far far far away from the gate. Boy... That was tough! My few reserves could only just handle it, and in one case it could not. I had to rush a unit of Lanciarii to the rescue before the enemy reached the plaza. Pleasant to see the AI act so sensible.
This scenario pretty much happened to me, however I am playing the Sassanid Empire. The ERE seiged and attacked me at different points around my recently captured city Sinope.
I won the battle, to my frustration ~:) , given I'd destroyed most of my buildings when seiged, thinking I was going to lose the city.
The odds had been 1:3 against. Sassanids are cool. But I was also impressed by the AI.
kraxis how is the phalanx behavior? is there a shieldwall? tell me all about phalanx units, behavior, AI-behavior with it..the box-forming..anything!
kraxis how is the phalanx behavior? is there a shieldwall? tell me all about phalanx units, behavior, AI-behavior with it..the box-forming..anything!
Sorry... I haven't played much with the old game. I did some tests to see if the AI could handle phalanxes better now, and it seems so, but that was only a single test once.
Puzz3D made some comparative tests to RTW and found the phalanxes are now superb against cavalry, even the top of the line such as Cataphracts.
From now on I will use this thread to put in all my interesting observations about the game. I hope others will add their own observations, especially if they include the old game.
Anyway, I found to my great pleasure that the AI does like to try to envelop you are the Huns (perhaps when it just has lots of cavalry?). I had a poor Hippo-toxotai get caught by a Hunnic army on its way back for retraining after a bloody campaign. This was the resulting Hunnic setup for the battle. Take note of the minimap. The light Horsemen (horse archers in large units) cover the flanks while the heavier forces push me towards the edge of the map.
https://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berserkers0239lg.jpg
They even began to close with me whenever I tried to break out, forcing me to stay in front of the central force. I felt like some poor animal being herded to the slaughter, and the result was thereafter, Huns: 19, Kraxis: 2 :shame:
Later they tried the same thing with me and a force of reinforcements, but as it happened their two wings ended up in front of our armies, effectively elimininating their chances of concentrating their force on one army. But at least they had tried, and they damn nearly broke the reinforcements, killing my governor of the nearby settlement.
Another good improvement (some would argue against it) is that the AI now seems to use rearguards.
This shot is taken right after the Sassanid army has yelled a collective "Head for the hills!!!" But note that a single unit of spearmen are indeed advancing on me. Well it is perhaps not so obvious, but the nearest unit is actually advancing while the rest are fleeing head over heels.
https://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berserkers0245ry.jpg
After having given the others some head start they also turned and fled (and of course died trying).
I noticed similar behaviour in other battles that were clearly going in my favour, especially when I have lots of archers or horse archers, but this was the first time they fled before anyone routed, so it became very obvious.
Cesare diBorja
10-02-2005, 07:03
AI used rear-guard in Darthmod6.0/Darthformations8.0. BI is great. I have won seven battles and lost three. In one-on-one battles, a german(Allemani) chosen archer unit defeated a limiti unit, and then a comiti unit. It inflicted 50-80% casualties on both units. I am currently seeking to engage it again one-on-one with my better units. It is raiding my frontier(I am WRE). Battles are much better and much cleaner. Followed advice offered to defrag and then load up the game. I also dumped six other games and have plenty of back-up memory. Need a better video card(128mb egva 5200 model, slow, but optimised 160%). 1024mb RAM. Awesome, but, need more. But I have seen little in the way of the upsets experienced by Kraxis and others. Battles rolls on just fine. Still the beginning though. I am sure I will find something.........
Cheers
diBorgia
A small update to the campaign...
It is now well past 400, the Roman Empire is strong and stable. The Hunnic Horde has settled Campus Iazyges and doesn't seem to want to bother us again. The war with the WRE consists of a single of my fleets blockading Ravenna.
Intensity was settling down it seemed. And in the east the break came when I managed to defeat the Sassanid fieldarmy and not get ripped to pieces at the same time. The resulting siege of Ctesiphon was easily won (the only enemy force was a unit of Peasants). That seems to have broken the spine of the Sassanid Empire. They have tried again and again to besiege Kotais (that rebelled to me some 10 years earlier), but now it is winding down.
The very last battle saw me fighting for dear life, and the same for the Sassanid general, as in the end only his unit of Clibanarii Immortals were fighting. But they were fighting on the plaza, where they destroyed my last infantry (Lanciarii), melee cavalry and devastated my general (I had three men left he had 30). My horse archers had run out of ammo (those Clibanarii can withstand a hail of arrows).
I was desperate, those Clibanarii were ripping my remaining troops apart with their bows. I finally gave up and charged in my mercenary sarmatian archers... The fight was bloody but the result was satisfactory, I won.
The very same turn I had sent my most prominent general, governor of Hatra, to deal with a bunch of rebels. That he did well, but he couldn't return the same turn. The next turn he was gone, and so was the entire superb army I had sent with him, horse archers, eastern archers, plumbatarii and various cavalry... All highly experienced. The damn bugger had defected to the rebels!!! My most prominent general, victor of two heroic victories (on the map), now he was reduced to a simple rebelrouser. I was furois and about to send out the remaining units of Hatra's garrison but then I noticed the loyalty there, not good.
The next turn I was assembling an army to send west, finally settling the matter with the WRE. But I needed at least a few more turns to get the new general in place and collect troops from Dacia, Salona and Sirmium. But as fate would have it, the Huns were kicked out of Campus Iazyges by a revolt. I knew that was trouble, but to compound the matter the Burgundii, with their developing empire finally gave the Franks the big boot (which happened to be quite far east), and their four stacks entered the very same province as the Huns were leaving. They are now besieging Campus Iazyges and the massive raider force there. And finally the Burgundii also ripped the poor Lombardii a new one sending them packing too. Their six stacks are now diverting, some going for the Sarmatian city (I fear another horde is on its way there), while therest are on their way down towards Campus Iazyges, though some distance off still. The Huns are heading west, hopefully takign advantage of the WRE's weakness in terms of troops.
I think I will have to wait with my invasion of the WRE, those hordes are simply not good news on my western front. I don't think I have the troops to deal with them. GAH! At least I have begun training a few Comitatenses First Cohorts.
That's great. It seems, the hordes definitely are a crucial element for the challenge in BTW, by being both unpredictable and powerful.
By the way, your reports persuaded me to buy the game, Kraxis, and I guess I'm not alone in this case ~;)
By the way, your reports persuaded me to buy the game, Kraxis, and I guess I'm not alone in this case ~;)
Ditto. Thanks for giving up play time to report for us~:cheers:
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