View Full Version : Does anything beat Goths (1:1, V=V)?
I'm interested in the input of anyone who has done any testing with Goths, or even just you mathemaniacs out there...
Goths seem to carve up any cavalry once melee is joined. Are there any units which could conceivably survive as vanilla?
OK, this probably isnt exactly what you were thinking, but 40 V0 Szeks can easily shoot half of a Goth unit and exhaust the rest so that they rout on contact. This is a V0/V0 1 unit v 1 unit test.
Of course these results are harder to achieve in a 16 v 16 fight, but can be done vs the AI and also against some humans online.
https://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5049/000000505yp.jpg
https://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5066/000000516tf.jpg
Szekely rule!!
ichi :bow:
I don't know the stats for each but I suppose Lancers would break even with or if not beat Goths. I'll test this right now.
Goths win with their AP maces :embarassed:
I wanted the Lancers to win.
Ichi is thinking laterally as always, haha...
I should have elaborated that I meant hand-to-hand fighting.
Lancers get caned once the melee begins!!
I should think, therefore, that Goths are the most powerful non-missile troops bar none.
I should think, therefore, that Goths are the most powerful non-missile troops bar none.
Hmm, you're begging me to try swiss armored pikes and JHI against them, arent you? lol
ok, i cave, brb
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/ubersoldat/jhivsgoth.jpg
JHI wins. They almost routed after the charge but once the charge bonus was gone they easily defeated the Goths.
SAPs win too.
I tried Tuetons vs. Goths. Same thing with Lancers, mess them up bad in the charge then get destroyed by the maces.
Knight Templar
09-28-2005, 09:21
IIRC, chiv sergeants/saracen inf beat Gothic knights. The main problem is that Gothic knights can dismount (although AI in my games never does). Also, there is one thing I really hate: by dismounting Chiv knights, Royal knights, KoS, KT and Teutonic knights you can get Chiv foot knights which can beat Goths because of their bonus against cav. I plan to remove that bonus (historically, why would they have it?).
SAPs win too.
Of course SAP will win
Gothic knights: Att 4, Def 7, 40 soldiers
SAP (against cav): Att 4 (6), Def 11 (15), 96 soldiers ()-with supporting ranks
I can remember playing Aragon and getting the fright of my life when I charged my pride-of-the-army Lancers into unit of GK. They were wiped out and the GK proceeded to kill/capture the King and two heirs (at least that's what I figured at the time).
Chiv foot knights which can beat Goths because of their bonus against cav. I plan to remove that bonus (historically, why would they have it?).
Cause they have a tin opener for a weapon! Halberds were very effiecient at cutting through armour and even better at messing up the knights mount. (I wnat to see proper melees too in the next game, it was pretty common for knights to be dismounted and continue to battle on foot)
I can remember playing Aragon and getting the fright of my life when I charged my pride-of-the-army Lancers into unit of GK. They were wiped out and the GK proceeded to kill/capture the King and two heirs (at least that's what I figured at the time).Do Spanish royalty come as Lancers in Late?
Nah, but late RK are pretty kick ass anyway. That's not a bad idea though.....
I meant they chewed up a unit of Lancers and 3 RK, and a few more, swordsmen IIRC
Ironside
09-28-2005, 14:51
Do Spanish royalty come as Lancers in Late?
Late royal knights is lancers in 20 men units. Same stats
Late royal knights is lancers in 20 men units. Same statsRawkin, didn't know that.
Rawkin, didn't know that.
But seeing as though they are princes/heirs they often come with bada$$ virtues like Pride, Secret Pride and Killer Instinct. Valoured up from when they first get in the saddle. ~D
I have a follow up question. Do you get the new bodyguard unit when you get to Late if you started in Early like if you started in late? For example, when it hits late period, do the Turks switch from Ghulams to Sipahi?
bretwalda
09-28-2005, 17:41
I have a follow up question. Do you get the new bodyguard unit when you get to Late if you started in Early like if you started in late? For example, when it hits late period, do the Turks switch from Ghulams to Sipahi?
New units (ie: heirs coming of age) get the new gear (SoP as Turks) but the old units stay the same. The same as HRE I had and Early RK and a High RK going to the battle side to side. The only exception of course that you can't upgrade a Ghulam to SoP while you can upgrade an early RK to High or Late RK.
Geezer57
09-28-2005, 17:48
I have a follow up question. Do you get the new bodyguard unit when you get to Late if you started in Early like if you started in late? For example, when it hits late period, do the Turks switch from Ghulams to Sipahi?
You don't get a different unit, but both Royal Knights and Ghulam Bodyguards have better versions become available in later periods. The factions that don't use these for their Royal units (like Lithanians = Lith Cav), don't get the upgrades, IIRC.
The changes to RK and GB units are mostly better armor/defense - sometimes by quite a considerable amount. For example: GB's Early (8/3/4/4/6), GB's High (8/3/5/5/6), and GB's Late (8/3/7/7/6) - all values chg/attk/def/arm/morale. So from Early to High you gain one armor/defense, but from High to Late you gain two. Charge, attack, and morale don't change for these.
If you have a province that can build them, non-Ruler bodyguards can be retrained to the later versions - and gain any upgrades available there also!
Ah, thanks for the response. I guess thats ok...late GB's seem to be stronger than Sipahi.
Uesugi Kenshin
09-28-2005, 22:25
You can retrain your RK's to the new unit though, it can be very handy if you have a general who is always on the front lines and is especially critical if you have had him since Early and it has become Late. The reduction in valor is generally not that big a deal either, I retrained one man FK (Early RK) at 8 valor who became a CK (High RK) with 4 or so valor. After about 5-6 casualties or so they were back up to 7 or 8 valor. Once Late hit I retrained them again and again they barely lost valor, 4 casualties later I had a 16 man Lancer (Late RK) unit with 8 valor.
antisocialmunky
09-28-2005, 22:52
JHI can deal with GK but it becomes very attritional.
Mithrandir
09-28-2005, 23:17
...
In case I need to say more ...
Camels!
Mithrandir
09-28-2005, 23:18
ps: NO Not just in the desert.
Camels beat Goths (1:1 v=v)?
I find that...surprising...
Yeah, I should have known about JHI.
antisocialmunky
09-29-2005, 02:41
Well, JHI can take down anything on a horse.
HOWEVER, what I was refering to was GFK vs JHI. I've done alot of testing and on the defensive(as GFK are kinda inherently defensive: slow, heavily armored....), 3 units of GFK will kill 2 units of JHI.
Man per man, Gothic Knights are probably the best heavy non-spearmen type infantry.
Though, a single unit of GFK can't beat a single unit of JHI.
Yes, Billmen OWN the Goths, here is my proof
The first battle I did with +1 valor for the Billmen because I only train them in the providence in England where I get the +1. I forgot the name of it but everyone knows which one I'm talking about.
https://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/Budwise_thefirst/Billmen1valor.jpg
I figured that may be unfair so I chose to do both GK and Billmen plain with NO upgrades at all and have them charge at each other head on. They wavered and were losing badly at the beginning so I thought for sure the billmen would lose and then boom, all of a sudden it was nothing but WINNING EASILY until their general died and they routed.
https://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/Budwise_thefirst/BillmenNoValor.jpg
In conclusion, to beat a GK, have a polearm with little or no armor take them down.
I'm too lazy to put up a screenshot unless someone challenges but I just did I test on JHI vs Billmen and I came up with that the JHI will win a little over the Billmen.
I did a second test by giving the Billmen +1 in valor (Spending far less money still on the Custom Battle Screen than the Turks) and the Billmen won pretty easily over the JHI. It was a cool fight to watch, the JHI fought to almost the last man.
Knight Templar
10-03-2005, 18:34
Yes, Billmen OWN the Goths, here is my proof
Here's my contra-proof
GK V0 vs. Billmen V0, custom battle
https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4310/923kr.jpg
edit: the picture shows 33 billmen running away from 21 GK. As you can see, I didn't use CMAA
bretwalda
10-03-2005, 20:30
Yes, you did "use" the CMAA. Their number was factored in the morale counts. Billmen this way was outnumbered and that was enough for them to rout. So this is not a one-on-one fight.
(you could have like 3 cavalry threatening the Billmen two flank and back causing a huge morale hit without charging them that is without "using" them.)
sorry, your contra-proof is disqualified :wink:
Here's my contra-proof
GK V0 vs. Billmen V0, custom battle
edit: the picture shows 33 billmen running away from 21 GK. As you can see, I didn't use CMAA
Of course they might win, the Billmen will lose some moral because they are outnumbered on the field.
Edit - Oh, I see someone already said that. I also play with the billmen the way I am supposed to, with two long lines instead of a clumped mass. Computer doesn't play them right therefore they won't probably win.
Knight Templar
10-03-2005, 23:20
Bretwalda and Budwise, you're right, I completely forgot about the morale penalty. That's why I repeted my test twice, this time without CMAA. Results:
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/8242/932ch.jpg
https://img15.imageshack.us/img15/500/941yf.jpg
Ah, thanks for the response. I guess thats ok...late GB's seem to be stronger than Sipahi.
I personally think that Sipahi of the Porte are the best all-round unit in the game.
It depends on your playing style though... As pure chargers, they are inferior to a few of the non-missile cavalry stats-wise.
ajaxfetish
10-04-2005, 06:02
Having only 20 men per unit also limits them. Not as many arrows in each volley and not as many swords crashing home in the charge. Goths outnumber them two-to-one along with the ap (though no ranged attack and much slower).
Indeed. I was just responding to the comparison with Late Ghulams.
b
I also play with the billmen the way I am supposed to, with two long lines instead of a clumped mass. Computer doesn't play them right therefore they won't probably win.
God I just love to quote myself. OF COURSE THE GK ARE GOING TO WIN UNLESS YOU RANK THE BILLMEN RIGHT, which the computer never does.
Here is my proof, read here
http://www.totalwar.org/strategy/twug/mtw/C6.html
antisocialmunky
10-04-2005, 10:35
What about Boyars and Steppe Heavy Cavalry?
bretwalda
10-04-2005, 11:18
Awright, we need a MP proof... :)
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