DeLay indicted in Texas campaign finance probe

[Red Harvest]

No link yet, saw that Delay has finally been indicted on a count of conspiracy by a Texas Grand Jury.

Meanwhile Frist is catching heat about selling HCA stock from his not so blind trust. Too bad, on Frist, he was a bit more independent than most of the GOP and I was starting to think he might not be that bad.

[Xiahou]

Isn't there a saying that a good prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich?

I'm not going to try and say he's innocent, but it would be wrong to make assumptions about his guilt based only on an indictment as well.

Also, I just heard that Delay stepped down as majority leader over the indictment. To that, I say good riddance- he's made it clear lately that he's abandoned conservative ideals in favor of pork.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, I know we're going to be perceived as rats fleeing a sinking ship, but honestly, as a fiscal conservative, I've never had much love for Tom 'Deep Pockets' DeLay. That being said, you're right, let's see what the evidence they have against him (which by grand jury laws must be sealed right now) and then lynch him (or not).

[Red Harvest]

Isn't there a saying that a good prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich?

Considering this is Texas, and this is a GOP leader, I don't see how it applies.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

DeLay indicted in Texas campaign finance probe
By Associated Press
Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - Updated: 01:21 PM EST

WASHINGTON - A Texas grand jury on Wednesday charged Rep. Tom DeLay and two political associates with conspiracy in a campaign finance scheme, forcing the House majority leader to temporarily relinquish his post.

DeLay was accused of a criminal conspiracy along with two associates, John Colyandro, former executive director of a Texas political action committee formed by DeLay, and Jim Ellis, who heads DeLay's national political committee.

``I have notified the speaker that I will temporarily step aside from my position as majority leader pursuant to rules of the House Republican Conference and the actions of the Travis County district attorney today,'' DeLay said.

GOP congressional officials said Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., will recommend that Rep. David Dreier of California step into those duties. Some of the duties may go to the GOP whip, Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri. The Republican rank and file may meet as early as Wednesday night to act on Hastert's recommendation.

The charge carries a potential two-year sentence, which forces DeLay to step down under House Republican rules.

``The defendants entered into an agreement with each other or with TRMPAC (Texans for a Republican Majority Political Action Committee) to make a political contribution in violation of the Texas election code,'' says the four-page indictment. ``The contribution was made directly to the Republican National Committee within 60 days of a general election.''

The indictment accused DeLay of a conspiracy to ``knowingly make a political contribution'' in violation of Texas law outlawing corporate contributions. It alleged that DeLay's Texans for a Republican Majority political action committee accepted $155,000 from companies, including Sears Roebuck, and placed the money in an account.

The PAC then wrote a $190,000 check to an arm of the Republican National Committee and provided the committee a document with the names of Texas State House candidates and the amounts they were supposed to received in donations.

The indictment included a copy of the check.

The indictment against the second-ranking, and most assertive Republican leader came on the final day of the grand jury's term. It followed earlier indictments of a state political action committee founded by DeLay and three of his political associates.

Kevin Madden, DeLay's spokesman, dismissed the charge as politically motivated.

``This indictment is nothing more than prosecutorial retribution by a partisan Democrat,'' Madden said, citing prosecutor Ronnie Earle, a Democrat.



``We regret the people of Texas will once again have their taxpayer dollars wasted on Ronnie Earle's pursuit of headlines and political paybacks.''

The grand jury action is expected to have immediate consequences in the House, where DeLay is largely responsible for winning passage of the Republican legislative program. House Republican Party rules require leaders who are indicted to temporarily step aside from their leadership posts.

However, DeLay retains his seat representing Texas' 22nd congressional district, suburbs southwest of Houston.

DeLay has denied committing any crime and accused the Democratic district attorney leading the investigation, Ronnie Earle, of pursuing the case for political motives.

Democrats have kept up a crescendo of criticism of DeLay's ethics, citing three times last year that the House ethics committee admonished DeLay for his conduct.

Earlier, DeLay attorney Bill White told reporters, ``It's a skunky indictment if they have one.''

As a sign of loyalty to DeLay after the grand jury returned indictments against three of his associates, House Republicans last November repealed a rule requiring any of their leaders to step aside if indicted. The rule was reinstituted in January after lawmakers returned to Washington from the holidays fearing the repeal might create a backlash from voters.

DeLay, 58, also is the center of an ethics swirl in Washington. The 11-term congressman was admonished last year by the House ethics committee on three separate issues and is the center of a political storm this year over lobbyists paying his and other lawmakers' tabs for expensive travel abroad.

Wednesday's indictment stems from a plan DeLay helped set in motion in 2001 to help Republicans win control of the Texas House in the 2002 elections for the first time since Reconstruction.

A state political action committee he created, Texans for a Republican Majority, was indicted earlier this month on charges of accepting corporate contributions for use in state legislative races. Texas law prohibits corporate money from being used to advocate the election or defeat of candidates; it is allowed only for administrative expenses.

With GOP control of the Texas legislature, DeLay then engineered a redistricting plan that enabled the GOP take six Texas seats in the U.S. House away from Democrats - including one lawmaker switching parties - in 2004 and build its majority in Congress.



Looks like he will have to step down as leader of the House.

[solypsist]

the actual title should be Delay indicted AGAIN

remember he was indicted in april (i think) and the republican congress changed the rules so he wouldn't have to step down from his post while the investiagation continued.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Therea another thread with the whole story posted by yours truly. ~D

[solypsist]

would u like a merge?

[Don Corleone]

the actual title should be Delay indicted AGAIN

remember he was indicted in april (i think) and the republican congress changed the rules so he wouldn't have to step down from his post while the investiagation continued.

How would the House changing it's ethics rules end the indictment then? Go back and check your account at DailyKos.com, he was brought up on a House ethics violation charge. ~D

First Time indicted, last time was a House Ethics Committe investegation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601295.html)

[solypsist]

Grrrrr....


How would the House changing it's ethics rules end the indictment then? Go back and check your account at DailyKos.com, he was brought up on a House ethics violation charge. ~D

the interesting part is this: a gay dude is taking his place, and Bush can't pardon Delay because these are state charges. interesting moment for the republican christian-right constituency.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isn't there a saying that a good prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich?



Considering this is Texas, and this is a GOP leader, I don't see how it applies.



Kevin Madden, DeLay's spokesman, dismissed the charge as politically motivated.

``This indictment is nothing more than prosecutorial retribution by a partisan Democrat,'' Madden said, citing prosecutor Ronnie Earle, a Democrat.



``We regret the people of Texas will once again have their taxpayer dollars wasted on Ronnie Earle's pursuit of headlines and political paybacks.''
.

[QUOTE“Dollars for Dismissals”
The prosecutor in the DeLay case dropped charges in exchange for cash to pet cause.



Ronnie Earle, the Texas prosecutor who has indicted associates of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay in an ongoing campaign-finance investigation, dropped felony charges against several corporations indicted in the probe in return for the corporations' agreement to make five- and six-figure contributions to one of Earle's pet causes.

”[/QUOTE]

LINK (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200506200910.asp)

[Don Corleone]

Grrrrr....



the interesting part is this: a gay dude is taking his place, and Bush can't pardon Delay because these are state charges. interesting moment for the republican christian-right constituency.

Why are you growling at me? And honestly, you're making references I don't get. Roy Blount (MO) is gay?

Edit: Oops, too many threads to keep track. Sorry Soly.

[solypsist]

gawain:

well, smearing the character of the prosecutor doesn't change anything. if earle (and he probably is a nut) went away tomorrow, the charges would still be there. so i'm confused as to what this has to do with delays indictment.

[Xiahou]

gawain:

well, smearing the character of the prosecutor doesn't change anything. if earle (and he probably is a nut) went away tomorrow, the charges would still be there. so i'm confused as to what this has to do with delays indictment.I think it supports what I said earlier. Indictments don't mean much- they're easy to get. Let's get excited once he's convicted.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

well, smearing the character of the prosecutor doesn't change anything

So you see no connection between what he is doing here and the case against Delay? Looks like bribery to me.

[Devastatin Dave]

Liberals will not be happy till every conservative is locked up in Gitmo. This will fail, much like any political witch hunt by the Left... Wake me when the left in this country do something useful for once....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[solypsist]

So you see no connection between what he is doing here and the case against Delay? Looks like bribery to me.

what i do see is the republican "strategery" of how they're going to handle this:


Here is the game plan:

1) Ronnie Earle is partisan.
2) Ronnie Earle is insane.
3) Ronnie Earle is a liberal.
4) Ronnie Earle is a waffler.
5) Ronnie Earle is a liar.
6) Ronnie Earle is an attention whore.

At every opportunity, my conservative friends, whenever the topic of Rep. DeLay's indictment is brought up, you must QUICKLY mention Earle's name and shift the topic of conversation towards him. Rep. DeLay's guilt or innocence is UNIMPORTANT! The debate can and MUST focus upon the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore.

Under no cricumsances should you DEBATE THE MERITS OF THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST REP. DELAY! This is of PARAMOUNT importance! This debate is about the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore, and about the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore alone!



i can see this happening on fox news right now.

[Don Corleone]

I'm with Dave. Wake me when they get to the discovery phase and we can actually hear about some facts being entered into evidence.

[Devastatin Dave]

what i do see is the republican "strategery" of how they're going to handle this:


Here is the game plan:

1) Ronnie Earle is partisan.
2) Ronnie Earle is insane.
3) Ronnie Earle is a liberal.
4) Ronnie Earle is a waffler.
5) Ronnie Earle is a liar.
6) Ronnie Earle is an attention whore.

At every opportunity, my conservative friends, whenever the topic of Rep. DeLay's indictment is brought up, you must QUICKLY mention Earle's name and shift the topic of conversation towards him. Rep. DeLay's guilt or innocence is UNIMPORTANT! The debate can and MUST focus upon the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore.

Under no cricumsances should you DEBATE THE MERITS OF THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST REP. DELAY! This is of PARAMOUNT importance! This debate is about the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore, and about the insanely partisan liberal liar of a waffler Ronnie Earle who is an attention whore alone!



i can see this happening on fox news right now.

Yes and liberals never said ANYTHING about Ken Star.... Hypocracy reins supreme, even for such self proclaimed unbiased persons I see.... ~:handball:

[Xiahou]

Under no cricumsances should you DEBATE THE MERITS OF THE INDICTMENTS AGAINST REP. DELAY!You'd have to bring some up before anyone could debate them. For my part, I don't know that I'd particularly care to. DeLay can sink or swim on his own- give him a fair trial and see what pans out.

[Don Corleone]

Soly, the evidence against Delay is still currently sealed as part of the grand jury proceedings. How can we comment on the validity of the charges when we have no idea what's behind them?

[Red Harvest]

The political frame up crap is just that. This had to get by a *Grand Jury.* My uncle was on one of these (he is extremely conservative) in a major Federal case, and he went after the prosecutor fairly heavily on weak aspects of his case.

[Xiahou]

And did they indict?

[Don Corleone]

Red, I have no idea if the charges are valid or not. I will say, as outstanding a citizen as he may be, your uncle's presence on a grand jury does not guarantee in my mind that they are always right. If so, what would be the point of a trial and a petite jury? Either produce some of the evidence against DeLay or let's hold off until we get some. With regards to attacking Ronnie Earle, might I suggest that he has his own ethics oversight, and if they're comfortable with what he is doing, maybe we armchair lawyers ought to tone it down a little? Unless of course somebody has a smoking gun beyond "Democratic prosecutor, what do you expect"...

[solypsist]

well it's going both ways. for something that has "no merits to be discusses" there sure are a lot of Conservative talking heads on tv right now defending Delay and attacking Earle. why don't you criticize them, as well?

you're pulling a straw man gimmick.



Yes and liberals never said ANYTHING about Ken Star.... Hypocracy reins supreme, even for such self proclaimed unbiased persons I see.... ~:handball:

[Devastatin Dave]

Does an indictment equal a conviction? Nope.
Does an indictment equal a conviction if its against a Republican according to liberals? Of course. ~D

Well, this district attourny did the same thing with Representative Hutchison and it failed as well. Such a sad little group of people Democrats are. Can't win elections, have to resort to this foolishness, soon they will even become more insignificant after this little episode. Must suck when liberals can't even win in the courts. It took SIX grand juries to get this indictment against Delay. Who needs comedy when there will always be whacko liberals to laugh at. I hope I didn't offend you too much Soly by pointing out the truth, I'd hate to get another warning.LOL ~D

[Don Corleone]

well it's going both ways. for something that has "no merits to be discusses" there sure are a lot of Conservative talking heads on tv right now defending Delay and attacking Earle. why don't you criticize them, as well?

This is going to come as a shock to you, but the only political news I watch on TV is the Jim Lehrer newshour, and that only on occassion. If you're watching Foxnews, perhaps I should criticize you! I have no control over what DeLay's cronies come on television and say. I did ask that my brethren in the Conservative Club put up or shut up on the Ronnie Earle accusations. What more would you have me do?

[Red Harvest]

And did they indict?

Yes. And the person was convicted. It was a rather heinous murder case involving a high official, I'm not going to go further than that. There were problems with parts of the case with the prosecutor trying to over reach IIRC.

[Devastatin Dave]

Again, it has taken 6 grand juries for 1 indictment (not a conviction of course) on this. So my liberal friends within this thread, you might want to put the corks back on the champagne bottles thinking that someone has finally got Delay, you might get embarrased AGAIN.

[Red Harvest]

Again, it has taken 6 grand juries for 1 indictment (not a conviction of course) on this. So my liberal friends within this thread, you might want to put the corks back on the champagne bottles thinking that someone has finally got Delay, you might get embarrased AGAIN.

It took awhile to get Capone and Gotti too...

...and O.J. walked.

[PanzerJaeger]

Wake me up when something meaningful happens.. like a conviction. :sleeping:

On a side note.. I just recently read that the Delay family has been a foster family for many years. They take in abandoned teenagers to their home and look after them. I cant think of a more caring thing to do than tolerate not only teens in your house, but disaffected one's at that. I can only imagine the emotional ordeals!

Delay has often been characterized as a vicious person by the left, and its important to look beyond their propaganda.

[Devastatin Dave]

It took awhile to get Capone and Gotti too...

...and O.J. walked.

Talk about strawman!!! LOL
Keep it up Red Harvest, the more you post on this the better I feel that about Delay's innocense. ~:)

[yesdachi]

...and O.J. walked.
Yah, but he was innocent. :laugh4: :laugh:

[Geoffrey S]

well it's going both ways. for something that has "no merits to be discusses" there sure are a lot of Conservative talking heads on tv right now defending Delay and attacking Earle. why don't you criticize them, as well?
Precisely. These things work both ways, both Republicans and Democrats are equally capable of slinging mud when given even the slightest excuse. It's pretty sad, but it's certainly not one-sided Conservative/Liberal bashing.

That said, things will be more interesting if there's a conviction. An indictment doesn't say all that much just yet, there's still a lot left to happen.

[Redleg]

It seems back a few years ago the congressional representive maps were redrawn and a big fight developed between the Republicans and the Democrates on the issue. Is this an ongoing part of the saga - or is it a indictment of criminal actions by Senator DeLay.

There is evidence for discussion about the merits of the indictment if one bothers to read other sources other then national news.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-11-07/pols_feature7.html

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2004-10-01/pols_feature2.html

http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleFileName=040227_f1.htm


Now this one is funny to read in many ways and sad in others.

http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/05/on_ronnie_earle.html

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Many years ago, I worked for a summer with the RNC. My job was to call patrons who had donated money to the RNC and ask if they would direct their contribution to a given individual campaign instead of to the RNC. I would then write down the name of the person to whose campaign they wished the contribution to be directed. If they had no one in mind, I would suggest certain campaigns. Once they supplied a name, it then was considered an individual contribution and a check from thr RNC to the campaign was forwarded. This allowed the money to not count as money from the committee. Subsequently, this loophole was closed and the RNC stopped the practice.

Two points:

1) Both parties spend considerable effort to game the system for maximum advantage, especially with the most critical political resource -- money. Campaign finance limits are gamed for every loophole by perceptive individuals who are trying to win. Think for yourself about how many folks out that are running all cavalry "Roman" armies in order to conquer the world in 100 turns. Is that in keeping with the spirit of the game? No, but it does adhere to the "letter" of the system. Politics is oft played the same way.

2) I would vastly prefer a system wherein contributions could be made by any source in any amount they desired -- but with: no contributions allowed after 1 week prior to the election and total accountability made public within three days of the contribution...backed up with automatic impeachment, jail, and fines for anyone misrepresenting or covering a funding source. If my rep is a wholly owned subsidiary of Exxon or the NRA then I need to know that before making my vote. For some voters it might be a plus (Yes Caesar#10 I'm thinking of you and your love of the 2nd amdt.). ~:)


As to Delay, we'll see if they can get a jury to convict. If so, jail him. However, the key test has already been met and the more important verdict -- the public opinion/media verdict -- is being adjudicated right now.

Seamus

[Red Harvest]

Talk about strawman!!! LOL
Keep it up Red Harvest, the more you post on this the better I feel that about Delay's innocense. ~:)

Hardly a strawman. Rather I was pointing out that taking multiple attempts to pin someone is not unusual, so you shouldn't take too much solace in it. I could also mention Edwin Edwards of Louisiana or many others. Conspiracy/corruption cases are difficult to prove from what I've seen.

It is especially going to be difficult to get anything resembling objective jurors when you have a case with a politician in a state with very strong leanings in support of that politician. That's why I find the whole, "it's just politics" argument extremely weak. Had Delay been from the other side of the aisle then it would have been a far stronger argument. Heck, in Texas you have on average very conservative types, moreso than in most other states in the country. They aren't going to want to indict Delay no matter WHAT he might have done.

As for the merits of the case, we will have to wait and see. I'm neither assured of his guilt, nor his innocence at this time. So unlike you, I will be waiting to see what develops to draw a conclusion. But going right to the "it's just a political smear campaign" dismissal is bogus at this point.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Heres (http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/delay/delay92805ind.pdf) a copy of the inditment. What a sad joke. I know it wold be thrown out of court here in NY. There is no evidence of Delay doing anything wrong in it .

[Xiahou]

I agree- I don't see how this can possibly stick. Guilty or not, it doesn't matter- the charges, as listed are all but unprovable and the prosecutor had to have known that. Makes me think this is probably a fishing expedition.

We'll see I guess...

[Xiahou]

Now it seems that the prosecutor realized his indictment didn't even apply since the law was written after the alleged criminal acts took place.

So, he seats a new grand jury on Monday and has already come up with a new indictment? That seems pretty quick doesnt it? Hardly enough time for a thorough investigation.

Two words: fishing expedition.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20051004/ap_on_go_co/delay_indictment_14)
link (http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm)

[Goofball]

I think the whole thing is just a clever way to manipulate DeLay into having to take the stand so they can ask him if he has ever diddled a chubby intern, at which point they can charge him with lying under oath and make that the whole point of the prosecution.

I don't know what made me think of that. Probably all of the references to "fishing expeditions." It seemed to ring a bell...

[Xiahou]

So you agree its bogus? Glad to hear it. :bow:

[Goofball]

So you agree its bogus? Glad to hear it. :bow:

It might surprise you, but you're not too far from correct about what I think.

While I'm not ready to stipulate that all of the charges are bogus, that's only because I haven't seen enough info yet. But I do believe that this is definitely a politically motivated prosecution.

Just like it was against Clinton.

Even though I have never heard a conservative admit that...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The plot thickens


DeLay faces money laundering charge
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A Texas grand jury brought a charge of money laundering Monday against Rep. Tom DeLay, the former House majority leader indicted last week on conspiracy charges stemming from a campaign finance probe.

DeLay and two associates are now also charged with conspiring to illegally steer $190,000 in corporate donations to state legislative candidates in 2002 and to disguise its source by sending it through national Republican campaign committees.




He is trying to pull the legal equivalent of a 'do-over,' since he knows very well that the charges he brought against me last week are totally manufactured and illegitimate," said the Texas Republican. "This is an abomination of justice."

DeLay's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, said the new indictment came as a result of a motion he filed to dismiss the conspiracy charge brought Wednesday. DeGuerin argued that the state's conspiracy statute did not apply to the state election code.

"Faced with the fact that the indictment he returned against Mr. DeLay last week does not even state a crime, he went back before a grand jury -- who, by the way, was only empaneled today at noon -- and got this new indictment," he said.



Also have you heard that Earl is having a documentary made about this case? Hes lookng for a good ending it seems.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/03/delay.indictment/

[Hurin_Rules]

On a side note.. I just recently read that the Delay family has been a foster family for many years. They take in abandoned teenagers to their home and look after them. I cant think of a more caring thing to do than tolerate not only teens in your house, but disaffected one's at that. I can only imagine the emotional ordeals!


I hear Hitler liked puppies too.

[Xiahou]

This gets even better... apparently the grand jury that indicted on Monday (same day it was impaneled), was actually the 3rd grand jury impaneled to indict Delay- not the second.

The second grand jury ended on Friday after refusing to indict Delay on money laundering. So, what does Earle do? Well, he gets a new grand jury on Monday and makes them give him the indictment he wants. ~:handball:

link (http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/content/metro/stories/10/5earle.html)