View Full Version : Hordes!
https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/cbrasmussen/e355233f.jpg
Playing ERE and thought I was doing ok. Had a Vandal horde moving back and forth but I kept the two nearby bridges covered. Then Huns came and took the only Goth city which turned them into a horde which materialised within my border. GAH!
CBR
Alexander the Pretty Good
09-29-2005, 01:09
Looks like fun! ~:eek:
Malcolm Big Head
09-29-2005, 01:23
Only 4 stacks. ~D
Patricius
09-29-2005, 01:44
Four is not quite a horde. I was expecting something more impressive, if not quite MTW Mongols. But probably other larger barbarian factions can have larger hordes. Four, though, is quite enough if the stack moves efficiently.
Awaiting Friday....
Well its not just the four stacks of Goths as the possiblity of them wiping out one of my two bridge armies which would leave me open for the two northen hordes too.
Three of them are now moving towards Constantinople while Im desperately gathering what units I can get heh.
CBR
Steppe Merc
09-29-2005, 01:54
So the Horde units, are they weaker? Or just renamed of the same unit?
Patricius
09-29-2005, 01:55
Could you update us with screenshots of the horde's progress? It's something to look at while waiting.
Well now I got all 4 besieging Constantinople. I got one stack in the city but I dont know if I dare to attack heh. I would say about half the enemy units are steppe horde spearmen which are not that good but there are some horsearchers and chosen swordsmen too.
https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/cbrasmussen/0005.jpg
So the Horde units, are they weaker? Or just renamed of the same unit?
Generally a bit weaker versions of the original.
Seems CBR has experienced the Goth plea for sanctuary, and let them in of course.
In my game the Huns have managed to breach my border (the was with the Sassanids has bled off my money). But I continually repulse them at that northern city. Their Horde Spearmen are simply no match for Lanciarii on top of walls. And when they are taken out they are forcedto retreat as they have no other infantry.
And for some reason the Goths have been able to keep hold of Campus Iazyges from the Vandals (despite repeated efforts to take it), so they are now moving the main part of their horde to the west. But the Goths are seriously weakened and I think the last effort now will break them. And then I have nother horde on my toes.
CBR, how did you manage to scrounge up those troops? I have been forced to keep troops at home due to unrest. Did you adopt a non-comitment to the religious issue? I'm thinking more and more that it was a fault by me to turn to chritianity.
8 of them are mercs I have hired within last couple of turns. A few units have come from Asia Minor just last turn and have been building a few in Constantinople.
I only had a bit of unrest and have gone for Christianity.
CBR
Patricius
09-29-2005, 02:21
Well now I got all 4 besieging Constantinople. I got one stack in the city but I dont know if I dare to attack heh. I would say about half the enemy units are steppe horde spearmen which are not that good but there are some horsearchers and chosen swordsmen too.
https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/cbrasmussen/0005.jpg
That looks serious :duel: .
I hope that the problems that occurred for besieged whenever a human controlled army sallied, in terms of pathing and whatever else are gone.
I wonder how this develops....
SigniferOne
09-29-2005, 02:33
The size of the horde is directly related to the size of the last city of the faction. If it's a monumental city, then the horde will be enormous too (think about it, if it's a city with 24,000 population, and most of those will end up as a horde...).
The best to do is simply to weather the storm like they did originally. Let them batter themselves on the walls since beating them in the field will be expensive.
Well I sallied out and faced two enemy armies. Im normally used to the AI pulling back and find a spot to defend so I have time and room to deploy my army. But in this case the AI only moved a bit back while sending HA forward to engage. The AI had moved its infantry a bit to one side and suddenly decided to attack. Luckily their spearmen are not good so I managed to hold them and finally break them. Still lost half my army though in a chaotic battle heh.
CBR
Well its not just the four stacks of Goths as the possiblity of them wiping out one of my two bridge armies which would leave me open for the two northen hordes too.
Three of them are now moving towards Constantinople while Im desperately gathering what units I can get heh.
CBR
hmmmm.....
D
Well I sallied out and faced two enemy armies. Im normally used to the AI pulling back and find a spot to defend so I have time and room to deploy my army. But in this case the AI only moved a bit back while sending HA forward to engage. The AI had moved its infantry a bit to one side and suddenly decided to attack. Luckily their spearmen are not good so I managed to hold them and finally break them. Still lost half my army though in a chaotic battle heh.
CBR
Hehehe... As I said you should have weathered the storm. You take farless losses during sieges than before. A couple in each unit, that's all.
Bob the Insane
09-29-2005, 17:18
Generally a bit weaker versions of the original.
CBR, how did you manage to scrounge up those troops? I have been forced to keep troops at home due to unrest. Did you adopt a non-comitment to the religious issue? I'm thinking more and more that it was a fault by me to turn to chritianity.
Can't spek for CBR of course but in my WRE game I think I have seriously messed things up for myself but try to force wide speard adoption of Christianity....
Can't spek for CBR of course but in my WRE game I think I have seriously messed things up for myself but try to force wide speard adoption of Christianity....
Yes, in WRE I think it is a far bigger problem. Already racked with widespread unrest and a lousy economy, I think it is better to keep going with the mixed system until you have stabilized the empire. Sadly I can't see where that will go. So far I have been in great trouble several times with cities blowing over with unrest. That has forced me to keep upgrading the buildings for happiness and law. Several cities also have daily games to keep them in line. Alexandria is also problematic with the 44000 inhabitants. No army can keep them down.
It has become a real chore to find suited governors, looking only at law, happiness and unrest factors in his capabilities.
professorspatula
09-30-2005, 18:57
These hordes definitely make the game a bit more interesting. You can't just finish certain factions off without setting yourself up for more troubles from them in the future. It now makes sense if the enemy faction has 2 settlements left, that you take the largest settlement first so when the final one falls, the horde that emerges is smaller. I'd be interested to see if the mods try to expand the map again and add lots more provences. That would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the horde as a force as it would only be able to make an impact on a smaller proportion of land. Currently hordes can have enough men to take a fair chunk of land or wipe out a large part of your army.
I think the mods would be going in the wrong direction with more settlements. That means less fieldbattles and the Hordes will be weakened severely. What if the Sarmatians, Butgundians and Goths all start with 4 cities. How many chances are there that we would see those and the two starting Hordes on the map? The Hordes would simply be swallowed up by more cities. And with no Hordes we will see a marked decline in the push-effect on the two Roman empires.
I think CA did the right move with actually reducing the number of provinces instead of increasing them.
So I agree with you Kraxis that more provinces will make horde kinda weak.
Right now they are feared because every settlement is important.
Mongoose
09-30-2005, 19:14
Dumb question:Do hordes slow down after reloading?
Dumb question:Do hordes slow down after reloading?
In my games, no.
Steppe Merc
09-30-2005, 19:19
I think the mods would be going in the wrong direction with more settlements. That means less fieldbattles and the Hordes will be weakened severely. What if the Sarmatians, Butgundians and Goths all start with 4 cities. How many chances are there that we would see those and the two starting Hordes on the map? The Hordes would simply be swallowed up by more cities. And with no Hordes we will see a marked decline in the push-effect on the two Roman empires.
Well, I think more provinces are key. They allow expansion of the the map, and make it harder for people to conquer historically difficult lands. Besides, there were a lot more cities than are represented, not less.
And by having more factions, as some mods do, it alows the amount of field battles to be the same, as well as creating "push effects".
Well, I think more provinces are key. They allow expansion of the the map, and make it harder for people to conquer historically difficult lands. Besides, there were a lot more cities than are represented, not less.
And by having more factions, as some mods do, it alows the amount of field battles to be the same, as well as creating "push effects".
I do not agree. Of course there were more cities, more than can ever be put on the map. That is not the point.
The push-effect is the Hordes' incursions into Empire territory. Without the Hordes the barbarians would have a hard time pushing into the Empires. If the Huns and Vandals are soaked up by the increased numbers of Goth, Sarmatian and Burgundian cities (not to speak of Frank and Alemanni cities) then where will the push come from? The Huns and and Vandals are exhausted from their march (most units have returned to peasantry). The Goths, Sarmatians and Burgundians are weakened by losing lots of units and cities (percentagewise). Left are only the western barbarians that so far in my games have done little against the two empires (indeed the Franks have expanded eastwards).
But of course, I cannot and won't stop you from making more cities. It would be a great way to actually see if I'm right or not. And in the end I could personally chose not to play the mods with many cities (though the general trend was towards lots of cities).
rebelscum
09-30-2005, 20:50
Hordes!
you can get some cream for that.
Steppe Merc
09-30-2005, 21:21
Ok, I didn't understand what you meant before. Now I get were you're coming from.
And I admit it's not as big of a deal with the mod I'm with, since there shouldn't be a huge amount of hordes running into the civilized folks. But I can see the desire to do so in BI, however I wish there was a better way to represent them. Can a faction choose to go horde without losing their city? For example, if they know that a huge army is coming, can they go horde, and run away from them? Probably not...
Can a faction choose to go horde without losing their city? For example, if they know that a huge army is coming, can they go horde, and run away from them? Probably not...
Well yes you can choose to go into horde mode if you only have 1 settlement left.
I did that when I played with the goths and I saw the huns.
If I stayed and fought I would have lost my regular army so I decided to abandon my settlement thus atleast have 1 army that are real soldiers instead of the horde troops.
Well yes you can choose to go into horde mode if you only have 1 settlement left.
I did that when I played with the goths and I saw the huns.
If I stayed and fought I would have lost my regular army so I decided to abandon my settlement thus atleast have 1 army that are real soldiers instead of the horde troops.
Hmmm... Didn't know that... Must have missed it in the manual. Now it makes it rather interesting. Just too bad the AI doesn't use it. That could have been a most dangerous situation for the player.
You can see it on the building menu.
It is on the left side and is the button that looks like a hut.
Paul Peru
10-01-2005, 11:32
But I continually repulse them at that northern city. Their Horde Spearmen are simply no match for Lanciarii on top of walls. And when they are taken out they are forcedto retreat as they have no other infantry.
So I gather they assault cities?
I don't get that a lot in non BI...
Do they assault as soon as they have built siege equipment?
It's good that this happens, but in this case it seems they would do better to starve you out.
So I gather they assault cities?
I don't get that a lot in non BI...
Do they assault as soon as they have built siege equipment?
It's good that this happens, but in this case it seems they would do better to starve you out.
They do assault often enough when they have a specific number of siege equipment. That is one ram, two ladders and one tower. Some times tthey wait a while at that level before attacking, other times they attack as soon as they can. At wooden level it is downright scary as they might come at you with eight rams.
Eventually the Huns managed to take a city, but that time it was by starvation. So yes that would have been he best choice, especially considering I had no chance to drive them off with either the garrison or any relief force. But one has to consider the fact that they are overwhelmingly superior in stats, so an assault is calculated as the best choice. Also, Hordes need homes, and a long siege is not in their best interest.
Garvanko
10-01-2005, 16:31
Train archers. Lots of them.
Train archers. Lots of them.
Actually if you are Roman I would say that a few archers (3 or so) are more than enough. The rest should be melee fighters to repel the enemy at the walls. Comitatenses, Plumbatarii and Lanciarii can easily defeat any enemy that attacks out of towers or ladders from the Hordes.
Are hordes just supposed to "appear"? as that's what seems to have happened with my ERE campaign-evrything's going along swell,I'm sending troops towards the persians when WHAM, five full stacks of Sarmatians appear inside my borders -- on the other side of the Danube to where I'm sure they should be, somehow getting past my forts+defensive armies...mind you,was a helluva enjoyable series of battles-i was desperately scrapng+scrambling together troops + isolating indvidual stacks as they were besieging constantinople (no, I had no archers in it...no time...only those merc. crossbows)
Hordes get a headstart from whoever kicked them out. In case of the Sarmatians they were likely kicked out by the Vandals or Huns (take notice when the message comes that a people is in flight). They normally attack from the north, so the natural way out is to the south.
Think of it as with the case of eth Visigoths of real history. They fled to the border and asked for sanctuary and got it. You gave the Sarmatians the right to come inside, now you have to pay the price.
Right now I'm keeping taps on the Burgundians. They are besieging the last Frank city (of a formerly quite strong little empire), meanwhile the WRE are getting stronger and are advancing north towards the same city. So when the Franks are kicked out they end up in WRE lands with the road open all the way down to Rome... That would be a sight.
Meanwhile the Vandals have created havoc in Spain, causing several cities to go grey (wonder why they never settled down), forcing the local Roman forces to clean up the mess. But now the Vandal horde is down to 5 units, all I think are family members. At least the Goths have taken some land, sadly for them it is in the middle of WRE lands and they have a nice little peace.
Orda Khan
10-02-2005, 16:59
I am still in 'horde' as the Huns and I've killed off the Alemanni. Goths and Vandals seem to be taking turns at settlement and horde. So far I seem to be keeping my economy topped up by threats to ERE but I will have to settle soon I think. Meanwhile I am having fun pushing all before me, it's getting chaotic
......Orda
Patricius
10-02-2005, 20:03
I wonder if the hordes shrink if a faction is forced to horde repeated. A Vandal horde took Corduba. Thanks to the effects of spies all the entertainment and religious structures are destroyed, and I have generally got it back after three or four turns by means of a loyalist revolt. It seemed only to have two stacks in its latest manifestation. What struck was how it tried to follow the historical path of the Vandals. And one effect of having fewer cities is that the hordes can move quite deep into the empire without being noticed. Given that tended to play with city heavy mods, it forces me to watch my borders carefully.
professorspatula
10-02-2005, 22:58
Potentially interesting/useless horde information. If you start a campaign with a faction that starts with a settlement and has a horde ability, you can get extra population and free horde armies by immediately forming a horde and then taking back your unguarded settlement. The settlement's population will be higher than it started (on large unit size at least) and you also have 3 or so spare horde armies to wallop your opponents or defend your homelands from rival factions. Of course, if the enemy factions then take your settlement in the next few turns, it won't form a new horde until the rest of your horde army is gone. But anyway, this enables you to make early inroads into rival terrority from the off. Whether that makes things easier in the long run I don't know as yet.
Orda Khan
10-04-2005, 22:25
Maybe I didn't read enough. My Huns had Thessalonica under seige and also Aquiricim (sp). I settled in the Pannonian town but had one almighty shock when the rebels of Thessalonica sallied. My army now consisted of a single General unit and the rebel scum pursued and demanded a battle. I never expected to see all my hordes disappear when a town is occupied, I expected to lose only those who settled the town. These towns were too far apart to cover the distance in one turn so I had to laugh at my bad luck. All is not lost since, with some careful manoeuvres I defeated the Veteranii that was sent to take my head ~;) I just felt it was a little strange considering the Vandals kept 'horde' troops for quite a few turns after they settled in Campus Iaziges
......Orda
professorspatula
10-05-2005, 03:15
Yea you lose 1/3 of your entire horde in the first settlement you capture. According to the manual it should be 1/2 but it isn't. However, I've found if you put your worst units in the stack that takes the town, they should be the first ones to settle, meaning some of your better horde units in other armies should be spared.
Utterly useless information this, but if you want to lose a much greater amount of your horde in one turn do this: capture the first settlement you find and lose 1/3rd of your horde. Immediately abandon the settlement by forming a horde. You don't get any extra horde units if I recall. Now recapture the settlement and you lose much of your horde again. Hurrah, you've gained a settlement and lost half of your horde in an afternoon. Attila would be proud.
Yea you lose 1/3 of your entire horde in the first settlement you capture. According to the manual it should be 1/2 but it isn't. However, I've found if you put your worst units in the stack that takes the town, they should be the first ones to settle, meaning some of your better horde units in other armies should be spared.
Fascinating they teleport bad horde units over large distance to settle :rolleyes5:
(this as in Orda's example)
Utterly useless information this, but if you want to lose a much greater amount of your horde in one turn do this: capture the first settlement you find and lose 1/3rd of your horde. Immediately abandon the settlement by forming a horde. You don't get any extra horde units if I recall. Now recapture the settlement and you lose much of your horde again. Hurrah, you've gained a settlement and lost half of your horde in an afternoon. Attila would be proud.
:thumbsup: that is useless!
The other one with horde/unhorde was a bit exploity... may be useful for blitzing start or re-expanding to weak faction.
It is fast to horde, so get units faster than training (but still lose population in same way?)
Is horde fighter/population 1:1?
Doug-Thompson
10-05-2005, 15:14
So I kill the poor Goth steppe spearmen off by the bushel, and what am I left facing?
A Hun-like army of Goth horse archers and an AI that actually knows how to use them.
It feels like the AI's big brother is beating me up for all those time I wiped out whole armies of Selucid levy pikemen as the Parthians in R:TW.
Strategically, though, the Goths are beaten. Even if they take Constantinople, they won't have enough population left to be a viable faction. I'll just take it back.
It feels like the AI's big brother is beating me up for all those time I wiped out whole armies of Selucid levy pikemen as the Parthians in R:TW.
I think it's going to be harder to do that in RTW v1.3.
Doug-Thompson
10-05-2005, 21:07
I think it's going to be harder to do that in RTW v1.3.
You know, I don't know.
On one hand, HA work again. On the other, shields and armor count for more — against frontal fire, anyway.
There will be more trouble to make sure you're firing into the side or from behind.
Last night I reached the objectives for the ERE (summer 440)
All in all Hordes makes for an interesting game as they can very quickly force you to change plans. I was preparing for an attack on WRE when the Slavic horde of 7 stacks suddenly appeared. Campus Lazyges was their center of attention and I defeated two large assaults. I would sure have lost the city if it wasnt for the silly AI that lost many troops while marching by just below the walls.
I also found money enough to gather a super all cav army with 3 generals, one Scholae Paltinae and 16 Clibinarii which basically wiped out everything in its path. So even though heavy cvalry is more expensive compared to infantry than in RTW I would say upkeep is still too cheap. Clibinarii are extremely good cavalry and it doesnt seem like there is anything that can stop them.
Before starting next campaign I think I will do some further modding for cavalry upkeep as well as removing peasants as they are not worth much. The AI seems better at building up fewer but bigger armies but not much point if it uses several weak units in them.
CBR
Garvanko
10-06-2005, 00:28
Started a Hun campaign tonight. 'Killed off' the Sarmatians, they became a Horde. They 'killed off' the Goths, who also became a horde. Alongside the Vandals and my faction, that's four Horde armies going stright for the WRE & ERE throats. ~:) Brilliant.
I went straight for Constantinople, Thessalonica and Athens. Took them all fairly easily as the ERE was well into a war with the Sassanids. Attacked from both ends, they will struggle for years to recover. Meanwhile the entire map north east of Campus Iazyges has rebelled, including one settlement in the farthest corner which actually, to my suprise, rebelled to my faction - probably the Huns' ancestral home.
Im losing money though. Time to push on towards Italy.
Ellesthyan
10-06-2005, 21:01
On the subject of cities, I think it may be necessary to add a city between Constantinople and the rest of the world, as it seems that the mightiest fortress between China and Japan (spanning the rest of the globe ~;) ) falls a little too much. Furthermore the Visigoths historically lingered for a while in nowadays Bulgary; rendered impossible without another city in that space. Adrianople, being one of the bigger cities of the ERE, seems to me as a good candidate, don't you agree?
Azi Tohak
10-06-2005, 21:08
I don't know if I should feel silly for mentioning this... :embarassed:
But I really like how on the overall map in the bottom left, if you can see a horde, they actually get a little star of their own. It's so cute!
Adrianople would be great... but it is very close to Constantinople. I know there is lots of land, and there is a precident for having a city on the territory edge (look at Sirmium!), but it might look kind of odd. Good idea though.
Azi
HoreTore
10-07-2005, 02:37
I do not agree. Of course there were more cities, more than can ever be put on the map. That is not the point.
The push-effect is the Hordes' incursions into Empire territory. Without the Hordes the barbarians would have a hard time pushing into the Empires. If the Huns and Vandals are soaked up by the increased numbers of Goth, Sarmatian and Burgundian cities (not to speak of Frank and Alemanni cities) then where will the push come from? The Huns and and Vandals are exhausted from their march (most units have returned to peasantry). The Goths, Sarmatians and Burgundians are weakened by losing lots of units and cities (percentagewise). Left are only the western barbarians that so far in my games have done little against the two empires (indeed the Franks have expanded eastwards).
But of course, I cannot and won't stop you from making more cities. It would be a great way to actually see if I'm right or not. And in the end I could personally chose not to play the mods with many cities (though the general trend was towards lots of cities).
Well, that depends on where you put those cities. You don't have to increase the number of cities for the barbarians. That would be rather dumb...
You can for example add some new settlements in England, Greece, Italy, Arabia or Spain without affecting the push. And if they're made right, they won't make the empires stronger either.
And if it's possible to add a faction or to, you can actually increase the push by adding them as barbarian horde factions like the Lombardi or Franks.
Alexander the Pretty Good
10-07-2005, 03:19
So you can't (while in horde) conquer and keep a settlement, then go into horde again to get more horde stacks?
mystic brew
10-07-2005, 10:25
Hmmm... Didn't know that... Must have missed it in the manual. Now it makes it rather interesting. Just too bad the AI doesn't use it. That could have been a most dangerous situation for the player.
i have seen it.
As ERE i raided the goths to administer a punishment beating. was sieging their city, when they suggested peace. I rejected their ceasefire, then suddenly 5 full stacks of troops appeared in the immediate area.
Led to a wonderful wonderful battle... my legions fought like demons, but in the end the horse archers could just pin cushion them to death.
Lost two family members, including my best general.
but wow.
a moment just like a faction re-emergence in MTW.
So you can't (while in horde) conquer and keep a settlement, then go into horde again to get more horde stacks?
You can conquer a settlement (and lose 1/3 of the horde) and move the rest on...
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