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frogbeastegg
10-03-2005, 08:53
Guide.

Sand
10-03-2005, 10:41
Ive only been playing over the weekend so Im just going to contribute a few points that have become apparent as I played. The WREs position seems nice on the strategy map but its a complete mess. No cash, no trade net work to make it, a huge army bill thats spread out across the map so youve no concentration of force, and practically all cities on the verge of revolt due to religious schisms. And thats even before the barbarians show up.

Be brutal - All the cities in Spain except for Corduba need to be demolished as much as possible for loot, and abandoned to revolt. Just before you go build Christian Shrines there, as when they revolt they seem to go 99% Christian if theres a Christian shrine there. This can be useful later.

Similar deal for the likes of Salona, Avaricarum, and similar cities that just arent going to make it. Loot them, leave them. Some cities can be saved, even by steps as simple as moving the governers in them out of the city, Carthage can go from Red to Green in the first turn for example. Youll need to micromanage and experiment with various tax/games and whatever settings. Theres far too much to go into here and most people should know by now how to deal with a tough city. Your Emperor is Christian and that means a 10% public order penalty in Pagan cities, which can tip the scales in the big cities. Wherever possible build christian shrines and move characters as appropriate (Valentinus in Rome, and the 24 year old General in Hungary are born again evangelists, really useful for fast conversion). Christian regions reinforce each other, likewise Pagans so dont skate uphill in places like the western frontier. Some you should leave alone for now - like Eburcuam (York...), Massilla and Syracuse are just asking for trouble when youve got enough already.

Your army bill is insane (for what you can support anyway) and youll need to dump about 25% of it as soon as you can. Get it down to under 30K or less if possible. Trash every troop producing building outside Rome in your first turn. You need the cash, and Rome produces the best troops you can make anyway. Then start disbanding units of troops - I favour dumping Foederatti Cavalary and the Comitatenses, the first because Light Cavalry isnt the most useful troop type around, and the second because its far, far, far too expensive for you to maintain. You need to keep a small army in North Africa (I favour building peasants in Syracuse, then sending the 2 Comms 2 Archers stack to Cartage whilst disbanding the other Comm - this takes a few turns), and similar sized armies in Spain, the Balkans and Britannia. A larger army is needed in Western Europe obviously, but dont let that Nero chap command it at the end of the turn - hes useful for a quick attack, but move him out of the stack at the end of the turn because hes a treacherous so and so. After army disbandments your forces will be paper thin, and you wont be able to retrain them anywhere but Rome, but skilled Generals will still win handily where they need to. Your navy also needs to be disbanded. Two ship stacks need to be one ship stacks, and you need them only in Corduba, Londium, Syracuse and the Adriatic. Everything else disband in a port.

Keep your taxes as high as you can, youre aiming for blue faces. Im the first couple of turns everything is about cash, and making it. Caralis and Londinium seem to be the two cities that are most worth investing in in terms of markets and trade etc. Prioritise them for money making first. After all my looting and disbanding I was actually able to turn a profit on my first turn - you will be hurt when the Pagan cities rebel on the 2nd turn but its short term pain for long term gain.

At this point you should have a couple of thousand denarri, and several cities especially in Spain are going to riot and then revolt. Let them. They will only have peasant armies (if you destroyed all troop making buildings). Move in the next turn and seige them and then exterminate them. Ive done this about 5 times now and you make usually 10K a city, sometimes 5 or 6K. The population is sometimes magically tipped to Christian since rebelling (build those shrines in the first turn), and the squalor which was such a mess before is not a problem now. You should have a much better chance of building and holding these cities now, if not push them into revolt and exterminate them again. Pop boom should keep them happy.

The Allemani can also be bushwhacked easy enough in the first couple of turns, and again exterminated and looted. Then demolish for loot, push them into revolt, leave and theyll swing to the Western Empire rebels, which can be a useful buffer. There are other rebel barbarians on the frontier that can be exterminated for loot so whilst youre waiting for the barbarians to show up help yourself. Dont get too worried about the barbarians, theyre coming, but they havent made any hostile moves in my campaign yet.

Ive fought one battle against the Berbers and wasnt impressed - light infantry, light cavalary: I beat a Berber army of four inf/cav units +general with a unit of foe spears and a unit of Lim + the Gen in carthage with practically no casualties. They seemed to have no morale, maybe the gen in question but either way, not a concern.

Be careful where you build your agents, Christians seem to be recruited from Christian cities and they have an effect on conversion, a lot of Christian diplomats and spies can maybe tip the balance in a pagan city and vice versa.

PseRamesses
10-03-2005, 14:01
"Consolodating"

Turn 1:
Destroy all pagan buildings. Destroy all military buildings (except in Rome). Disband units like priests, bucellarii, all cavs and all fleets except 2 (Britain and Sicily). This will bring your treasury up to well over 19.000 dinarii. Set all taxes to low and build peasant and christian shrine (1 turn) in all settlements.
You have 5 ZoD (zone of defence): Iberia, France, Balkan, Italy and Africa. Pull all expendable troops together into 5 armies within thoose areas.

Turn 2:
Continue removing expendable troops from settlements into the 5 armies as lyalties goes up. Single out the one settlement in each region that has the lowest loyalty and pull all troops out and make shure loyalty goes down to 0%. Theese 5 settlements are the first that you will terminate. In all other settlements build a christian chapel (2 turns) and more peasants for garrisoning, 2-4/ settlement will usually do.


+"Liquidating"

Turn 3:
Lay seige to the "5" settlements that you singled out. For me it was actually 4: Aduatica?/ Iberia, Avaricum/ France, Salona/ Balkans and Mediolanium/ Italy.
Your treasury should now dip well below -5.000 d.

Turn 4:
Take theese settlements and exterminate the population. This will bring some 40-50.000 d. into your treasury. All chapels are now built so you can move on and sacking remainding settlemnts that still won´t hover around 100% with 4 garrisoning peasants and NO general. Repeat, repeat and repeat again until all "pagans" arer rooted out of your new christian empire.

= "PseRamesses´3-turn key" to increased cash-flow


In less than 2 years you´ve now turned a sprawling civil-war prune empire on the edge of collapse into a cash-making machine and just 10 years into the game you´ll make well over 15.000d/ turn. Bring on the hordes!

Now you´re all set. Cash is coming in with 10k/ turn + from exterminating/ enslaving troublesome settlements and you can rebuild the infrastructure you initially destroyed. Don´t worry about other enemies, they won´t come wandering into your lands until they have troops to spare. Guard your border-bridges since a small defensive force can protect it easily. Haven´t even had any major difficulties with the hordes this way.
Be ware though of the commanders you have with pagan beliefs - they are easily bribed, and the barbarbarian factions start out with a lot of cash; 10-15.000 d. This is the reason why I want my garrisoning to work without any generals. Send them to Rome and some monastary (sp?) teachings for a while. Thoose that don´t convert, "hang" as many pagan vices around their necks and send them on suicidal missions.
From here I tend to build, build and build with my focus on defending. When done with this and evrything is solid I expand, usually into ERE-lands and I let the pestering little barbarians stay alive even if they won´t agree on a ceasefire or protectorate deal. Anyway, a good bridge slaughter now and then is always healthy and keeps my armies alert, right?!

Sand
10-04-2005, 01:58
One other point - (I only registered just there) - Corduba is "paired" tradewise with Tingi, which starts the game as the Berber captial, and theyre at war with you. In typical frustrating Total War style this means they never see a reason to make peace with you, until theyre dead. Peace and mutual benefit from trade isnt attractive to them it seems. So make it a point of order to send an army from Carthage ( the one originally from Syracuse will be well able to beat anything the Berbers can muster ) and deal out some Pax Romana to the locals. There are other draws to Tingi apart from making cash - its Christian, and its got decent troop production which youll have missed in Iberia/North Africa until now. Reinforce those battered legions, then send them north to help out on the frontier when order is restored in Iberia.

And a correction to what I said above about Shrines tipping rebelling cities to Christianity...they dont. Though the swing in Tarraco to Christianity is indeed miraculous if you leave them alone for 3 -4 turns. Its still worth building shrines in rebelling cities though, as they force the region to be officially Christian, which reinforces conversion in your own remaining regions that are neighbouring them. Ive also begun heavily converting the frontier by capturing and exterminating barbarian settlements on the frontier and building shrines before I abandon them or gift them to a local faction for brownie points. Helps my provinces to convert, or at least stop converting to Paganism. Agents as I said above help, but its not automatic that a Christian city produces a christian agent - Ive yet to see a pagan one produced in a Christian city, but a fair few are neither.

CXA
10-04-2005, 20:44
I think I got totally lucky. I was also very persistent. I did not worry about changing any cities religion. Those places that I could not adjust to get over 60% at the beginning, I let them revolt and took them back later. I did not disband any armies, I just pulled them together in certain regions for defense and some (very Little) offense. I did have problems for 75% of the game with cities (unrest). I always did just enough to keep them in the blue and some even in the red. 1st building priority was temples/shrines/church etc, whatever the city was majority wise. Then entertainment and health. Those cities that were happy I did the money and health upgrades.

Since I did not disband I had good army strength to defend and to put down revolts. I cashed in on all military buildings except for a few well placed cities. Kept 4 - 6 peasants per city, except those on border with a neighbor kept some better troops to defend and foray out if need be.. Only upgraded military buildings in Carthage and Rome. I fell in the negative alot but would always estermiante a neighbor to get money back up.

Took England and the celts quick. Took troops from syracuse to help Carthage defend. Got lucky when the Berbs wanted peace for a small time. When they attacked next, was always able to fend them off. My navy was beat up early except for small fleets east of Rome (helped me ferry troops to east border), and near carthage. I built a small enough fleet to take more men to England to deal with Celts and them bring them back. Took the Berbs out when I built up an army big enough. Owned the whole Left 1/3 of map.

Hordes came.... WOW!! Hard but man was it fun. Army was strong enough to take out 4 different hordes as they tried to come through my land. Good thing they all never came at the sametime. Any 2 hordes would have been more than I could handle. Had to deal with East Rome the whole time but they only wanted (can't think of city name) city just east of Rome. I was able to ferry troops over when needed to keep beating them off. Was able to catch small pieces of the horde when they are not adjacent to the whole group. Lots of battles where I was out numbered 2 to 1. Used 6 to 7 groups of archers defended by inf. and cal. with a couple of mounted archers. Up to 668 archers helped me to desimate any mounted archers that came to bother me. I have them in losse format and choose certain untis to attack certain groups and let them take them out. Once charged I tighten back up their formation and pull them back to saftey behind my lines. This worked like a charm even though I would lose 100 or so archers some battles. Easy enough to replace them (cheap).

Franks caused me problems for awhile. I beat them pretty bad till they were down to one city. They then turned into a horde (someone must have took out that last city. Until I had the strength I just kept the river between me and them and they were never brave enough to come across. I built a new army with all the finest and with a new general I just bought. I used 3 full stacks to wipe the Frank hoard.

By this time 98% or so of my cities are in the green and I am rolling in dough. Took Theselonia from East, then Athens. Army in Africa rolled all the way over and took Alexandria. Extermiante these cities and my surpluss of money was approaching 50,000. I beat the game in the year 421 with 44 territories. I will continue to play till the whole map is red.

Like I said I got lucky with not changing my whole empire to one religion (would not recommend that). Only played that round on Medium. Will now try the west on hard and will use some of the ideas above.

Sand
10-06-2005, 22:50
More to add: The rhine and the danube are your best friend. Without them keeping Western Europe civillised would be impossible, instead of merely extremely difficult. There are just over half a dozen bridging and fording points along their lenth. Build your army towards having a small border army on each bridge (Im working with 4 Limitanei and 4 Archers, though some are underutilised and Ill be disbanding them as the horde threat recedes), and then build two field armies with all the good stuff and sit them centrally to reinforce any bridge that comes under threat. Get them led by a general with good movement bonuses. With highways built ( midgame priority) youll be able to move along whole frontier in one turn. Best way to discourage hoardes whilst keeping your army bills down. Then your down to some good old fashioned bridge massacres!

In my game Ive so far annialated the Goths and the Vandals (theyre still around, just not worth anything). The Vandals were seiging the Frankish capital, and I was considering my options when the Vandals forced my hand by suddenly crossing into Roman land via a ford just north of the Alps that I hadnt seen and thus hadnt defended. Cue panic! Anyway, the interloepers were driven out, but better still was the night attacks led by that treacherous cur Nero to lift the seige of the Frankish capital by the Vandal stacks. I could take each stack singly because of night attacks and thus managed to beat them all with a scratched together army. The real benefit of lifting the seige on the Franks was stopping them from "hoarding" and thus making the Rhine to hot to hold. Nero and Spuris Flavius ( Acquinium) are extremely useful for cutting down the hordes to manageable numbers with their night attack ability.

Dealing with horse archers is a pain, but I favour heavy cavalry over archers against them. Youll take losses using your archers but your generals ( esp when retrained in Romes foundry) will be practically invulnerable to horse archer fire. Takes some micro management (and a few generals on hand) to "herd" horse archers against a red line and massacre them but its the most cost effective way to do it ( gens regenerate, archers do not). It also helps your gens develop good traits/stats from all that killing.

Right now, there are only two hoards still active - the Huns whove taken a few beatings on their way to me I think, and the Samartians who are probing to find an unguarded bridge. This is something you can manipulate - when the Vandals crossed into the Alps the Samartians were queing up to follow them across this ford. By this time I managed to get an army to the ford, and pulled another army off the bridge north of Acquinium - Samartians turned straight around and made a beeline for the unguarded bridge, giving me the turn I needed to beat the Vandals and I was still able to garrison the bridge again before the Samartians arrived. The hordes really dont like guarded bridges.

CXA
10-07-2005, 22:46
Dealing with horse archers is a pain, but I favour heavy cavalry over archers against them. Youll take losses using your archers but your generals ( esp when retrained in Romes foundry) will be practically invulnerable to horse archer fire. Takes some micro management (and a few generals on hand) to "herd" horse archers against a red line and massacre them but its the most cost effective way to do it ( gens regenerate, archers do not). It also helps your gens develop good traits/stats from all that killing.

I will have to try that Sand. I am not having any money problems anymore but in the early to mid game your way sounds very good.

I now own 2/3 of the map and have wiped out 6 different hordes now. It is only a clean up job now to turn the rest of the map red. I will then grow up and move up to Hard/hard or even very hard/very hard.

Al: Total Gore
10-08-2005, 21:24
Just a thought but playing as a Roman faction you might want to consider having a good general as Emperor. As the Western Roman Empire, I made Nero Flavius, Count of the Saxon Shore (with a command rating of 5) heir to the throne and when Valentinus the Wrathful died, I had no problems with rebel Roman factions emerging after he took over. I think the fear of having a skilled general ruling over the empire was enough to put fear into potential usurpers.

In the original RTW, who you made faction heir didn’t really matter. Sullust the Baby Killer could be made faction leader and no one would care because loyalty wasn’t a factor. With Barbarian Invasions, loyalty is a huge concern. The Western Roman Empire starts with 2 or 3 governors/generals with questionable loyalty. Fix this by giving them political titles (found in the retinue) from Generals who already have good loyalty. For example, the holder of “Count of the Saxon Shore” was given to an idiotic gambler family member who was already loyal enough. So instead I gave the titles to Nero Flavius since he was a good general who lacked loyalty and this raised his loyalty enough to not rebel. If you feel that any family member will rebel, put them under the control of a powerful general who is loyal. This will keep them from rebelling.

Also, many Roman governors start out with terrible vices that wreak havoc on an already devastated economy. Consider removing the bad ones from important cities like Rome and Carthage and make them governors of economically poor regions like Londonium. Or alternatively if any family member has no redeeming factors whatsoever, just reduce them to cavalry officers under the command of a good general.

ShadesPanther
10-08-2005, 23:03
This happened with my ERE campaign but is still relevant here. Be very careful who you make faction heir and be very very careful and do not remove a family member from the position of Heir (which can be a big problem when your Emperor dies as it give heir to anyone) Because they get a really bad trait and possibly even more bad loyalty ones. It happened to my mid level general who was in Asia minor at the time quashing a revolt, so he joined them along with the biggest army in the region

userfriendly
10-09-2005, 06:53
http://www.russiananimation.com/export_des...cter_traits.rar (http://www.russiananimation.com/export_descr_character_traits.rar)

This file makes it impossible for roman FACTION LEADER to go disloyal. The only thing that could lower faction leader loyalty is "Deceiver trait" and that has command bonus on highest level

All i did was added "Factionleader" as antitrait to all loyalty penalty traits. they only influence loyalty directly or influence in one instance. and since influence is not used in BI i thought it was of no consequence

no other modifications were made to this file. your generals still can go land become drunkards if you want.

below find a "No_Disloyal_faction_leader_nodrunk_gluton.rar" traits file.

this is the one i use as i hate moving my generals every single turn from every single setlement to prevent them from becoming fat slobs.

http://www.russiananimation.com/No_Disloya...runk_gluton.rar (http://www.russiananimation.com/No_Disloyal_faction_leader_nodrunk_gluton.rar)

econ21
10-10-2005, 09:27
I followed some of the advice given here and in the Colosseum {EDIT: a lot of my points seem to be common to advice by Dorkus}, and had no problems with money or loyalty. You don't have to give up a single city. This has only been tried on M/M difficulty, but I'm going to see if works on higher levels.

To deal with the money problem:
(1) Lower upkeep: Disband most fleets (I kept one near Britain, one near Gibraltar, and one near Carthage). Disband cavalry (I kept the Samartians) and priests.
(2) Get a lump sum to invest: destroy all troop buildings except those in Rome. You have a big enough army to start with and just want the high tech troops you can get by upgrading buildings in Rome. You can get lower level buildings when you take enemy towns.
(3) Exterminate the Allemanni city for an early cash boost. The Pictish one and any nearby rebels are other targets.
(4) Sell trade rights to any neighbours (200GP for 6 turns). I decided not to sell my map in the hope that this keeps the AI in the dark.
(5) Micromanage taxes - maximise them subject to keeping blue faces until things get comfortable.
(6) Prioritise economic buildings - especially ports and mines. (Actually second priority after loyalty buildings in red faced towns).

To deal with towns' low loyalty:
(1) Move the capital to Massila. This lowers the distance to capital penalty for many towns.
(2) Match the religion of governors to the religion of towns.
(3) Build the appropriate temples for the town's religion. I kept the Empire divided in religion. This meant effectively Italy was Christian but the rest of Western Europe was pagan.
(4) Raise units of peasants as garrisons where doing so would raise loyalty.
(5) Build amphitheatres for larger towns.

I have not had the Western Roman rebels emerge nor loyalty problems with any generals. Maybe winning battles raises loyalty like in MTW? I did give an office to a low loyalty high command general (Nero Flavius?).

Militarily, the early game has been quiet. I lost my British army in the Irish sea (doh!). I destroyed a Samartian horde on the bridge north of Salona (it also lost 1000 men taking Salona from two units - two stacks marched around the city walls to the front gate). I wiped out the Berbers. Now I'm facing depleted Vandal and Hun hordes, then I will make a push to Constantinople to secure the victory conditions.

I would prioritise roads and highways in the mid-game. The Empire is so large, it helps to be able to traverse it quickly.

I also built up decent fleets to deal with annoying pirates, but that was more for psychological reasons.

In terms of armies:
1) Archers are still very good buys (3/stack is good) although the crossbows I am not so keen on - they are outranged by bows.
2) I have found limitanei to be poor choices for front line field armies - the AI zeroes in on them. Better to keep them for garrisons and hunting rebels.
3) Comitatenses are fine troops and the core of my armies, but suffer against general's heavy cavalry (a downhill charge by one general's unit killed 50 comitatenses within a few seconds) - a couple of units of foederati might be a help here.
4) Mid-game targets are plumbatari to replace comitatenses and auxilia palatina to replace foederati. The Samartians are better than the Scholae Palatina, so don't need replacing.

Dayve
10-11-2005, 00:37
Some of the guides here really are terrible, especially ones that tell you to demolish buildings and exterminate everyone...That's ridiculous. I've never done that as the WRE, and i have at least 6 thousand denarii by turn two, and i play on vh campaign...

The first thing you need to do is disband all foederati infantry and cavalry. You can create more on turn two if you like, but for turn one just disband it all. Don't even think about messing with religion yet, if a city is pagan, leave it alone, if a city is mostly christian but has a pagan shrine, pull it down and put up a christian church and vice versa, but that's it...No trying to convert from turn one, unless of course you absolutely want to have a really challenging campaign, challenging to the point where the chances of you being able to win are virtually nil.

Anywho, once you've disbanded all foederati's, lower taxes so that your city faces are at least blue, and if they are still red then make the games monthly, or daily if needs be. If they're still red, (corduba and burdigala) then you have a choice of either letting them rebel and taking them back then exterminating, or queing up peasants and hoping that brings some order. I can't use peasants since i use the SPQR minimod.

Now, the Celts will NEVER attack you in Britannia even though you are at war with them, so disband everything except for city garrisons in Britannia, and just keep enough to make your cities yellow or at least blue. You should be able to raise taxes here a little too...

In Gaul, you have lots of archers in your cities, so put them into your 'army' which you start with in Gaul...You don't need all 7, so disband 4, unless you really want them...

In Iberia just disband everything except for city garrisons. Lots of rebels will popup here, but for now you'll just have to leave them be. In Sicily and Italy, you have a lot of Comitatenses in your cities, so make them all into an army. You might want to send them to the east near Aquincum to defend it, or to Salona to defend that, which can be a very profitable city with a little building... Or you might want to send them to defend North Africa, but i wouldn't recommend this. You'll almost certainly lose Carthage to the Berbers unless you send some Comitatenses there, and Lepcis magna will probably revolt, but when you have a little more money you can make a small army and go back over there to re-claim them.

After all this is done, you'll have at least 6 thousand denarii by turn two, so now would be a good time to start building the cheapest economic buildings...Ports cost only 800, you could build 7 of those, or 5 markets, or 4-5 paved roads, take your pick...I'd go for the ports. Alternatively you can que up Comitatenses and go on the offensive...Allemanii is weak, and their single city is fairly juice...10,000+ people to be massacred ~:) ...I think you can take over from here.

PseRamesses
10-11-2005, 12:32
Some of the guides here really are terrible, especially ones that tell you to demolish buildings and exterminate everyone...That's ridiculous. I've never done that as the WRE, and i have at least 6 thousand denarii by turn two, and i play on vh campaign...
Me too and with +15.000 around the 10th turn and a treasury hovering around 50k by the 20th I do belive my initial slash-and-burn tactics is the most profitable.


The first thing you need to do is disband all foederati infantry and cavalry. You can create more on turn two if you like, but for turn one just disband it all. Don't even think about messing with religion yet, if a city is pagan, leave it alone, if a city is mostly christian but has a pagan shrine, pull it down and put up a christian church and vice versa, but that's it...No trying to convert from turn one, unless of course you absolutely want to have a really challenging campaign, challenging to the point where the chances of you being able to win are virtually nil.
You´re dead wrong. Building shrines from turn one will bring your empire into order faster than leaving a mix of beliefs. I´ve tried every approach of the WRE campaign so believe me I know what I´m talking about. BTW, what difficulty level are you playing?


Anywho, once you've disbanded all foederati's, lower taxes so that your city faces are at least blue, and if they are still red then make the games monthly, or daily if needs be. If they're still red, (corduba and burdigala) then you have a choice of either letting them rebel and taking them back then exterminating, or queing up peasants and hoping that brings some order. I can't use peasants since i use the SPQR minimod.
Now, the Celts will NEVER attack you in Britannia even though you are at war with them, so disband everything except for city garrisons in Britannia, and just keep enough to make your cities yellow or at least blue. You should be able to raise taxes here a little too...
In Gaul, you have lots of archers in your cities, so put them into your 'army' which you start with in Gaul...You don't need all 7, so disband 4, unless you really want them...
In Iberia just disband everything except for city garrisons. Lots of rebels will popup here, but for now you'll just have to leave them be. In Sicily and Italy, you have a lot of Comitatenses in your cities, so make them all into an army. You might want to send them to the east near Aquincum to defend it, or to Salona to defend that, which can be a very profitable city with a little building... Or you might want to send them to defend North Africa, but i wouldn't recommend this. You'll almost certainly lose Carthage to the Berbers unless you send some Comitatenses there, and Lepcis magna will probably revolt, but when you have a little more money you can make a small army and go back over there to re-claim them.
Consolodating + liquidating ~;)

Dayve
10-11-2005, 13:31
I'm playing on vh/m. If i demolish temples and try to convert my empire into one religion from turn one, by turn 3 one half of my empire revolts against me. The only city i had to change the temple in as far as i can remember was the one next to Aquincum in the east, it had a pagan temple and the majority of the city were christian, so i tore it down and put up a church.

I guess your way may work, but it's unrealistic to slaughter the population of every city you own...So i try the more realistic and harder approach. I try to hold on to them rather than just slaughter them all...

PseRamesses
10-12-2005, 12:21
I'm playing on vh/m. If i demolish temples and try to convert my empire into one religion from turn one, by turn 3 one half of my empire revolts against me.

If you´re going to change religion it´s better to do it from day one to catch that window of oppurtunity before the hordes comes on their self invited tea time. It´s also realistic due to history as christianity was the state religion.


I guess your way may work, but it's unrealistic to slaughter the population of every city you own...So i try the more realistic and harder approach. I try to hold on to them rather than just slaughter them all...

I partially agree with that. OTOH christianity is the bloodiest religion in the history of man IMHO so it´s not that unrealistic. The main problem IMO is the rigidness of the game itself. Most provinces has an outrageous growth rate, you simply can´t keep up. And there´s no way, in the long run, to solve this problem other than either build peasants like a madman or do some extermination from time to time. At a growth rate of 5% a city of 2400 will grow by 0% if you build a peasant unit every turn. A city with 20.000 will outgrow you by 880 people/ turn still if you buy a peasant/ turn. The time it takes to build the top 5 buildings takes 25 years and by that time your city will have grown to 71.113 people ~:eek: - mission impossible.
I usually keep as many peasants in a city to maintain maximum level of taxes. It´s a good thing they only cost 14d. in maintenance so keeping 20 in a city only costs what two regular spearmen do. And when you simply can´t keep up with the growth rate and loyalty drops below 90% with 20 peasants garrisoned, just pull them out and let the buggers revolt. As your tag sais: "It´s not a bug - it´s a feature!"

Playing a mixed religion game will however give you unrest penalties. I can´t remember the numbers but some 5-10% drop of loyalty is expected. I do hope you pull it off and wish you an epic game m8! ~:cheers:

Sand
10-12-2005, 18:33
No trying to convert from turn one, unless of course you absolutely want to have a really challenging campaign, challenging to the point where the chances of you being able to win are virtually nil.

Conversion to Christianity doesnt require the temple in the settlement to be Christian. The surrounding regions, characters in the settlements and agents have far more effect usually than the 5-10% you get from the level 1/2. I would never try and force a Christian Shrine on a population that isnt already 50% (ish) Christian, but you should be trying from turn 1 to convert your cities populations simply by concentrating Christian characters in the right spots. the Emp and Spurius Flavius are excellent for this. Your emperor is Christian and thats a 10% public order penalty which can be the difference between blue and red faces in the big cities, especially on top of distance/squalor penalities.You cant do much about the last two, so why waste time fixing the 10% penalty you can rectify?


Anywho, once you've disbanded all foederati's, lower taxes so that your city faces are at least blue, and if they are still red then make the games monthly, or daily if needs be. If they're still red, (corduba and burdigala) then you have a choice of either letting them rebel and taking them back then exterminating, or queing up peasants and hoping that brings some order.

And Salamantic (sp?), and a lot of other cities which simply cannot be prevented from rebelling - esp when youre disbanding their garrisons to save cash. Simplest and least time consuming to loot them, retake them and exterminate them. By the 6th-7th turn at the latest youre all done. Then you dont have to waste so many garrisons to nursemaid ingrates and can concentrate your efforts on the frontier.

Anyway, your giving the same advice in the case of Corduba and Burdigala that you described as ridiculous at the top of your post.


Now, the Celts will NEVER attack you in Britannia even though you are at war with them, so disband everything except for city garrisons in Britannia,

Perhaps in your game they did not. I would not take your game as the rule however as they did attack me in my game - with a full stack army. If I had disbanded my army there, Id have lost Britannia as I could only possibly have reinforced it from the frontier, which was weak as it was. And the Londinium -Sambrovia trade is nice to have.


I guess your way may work, but it's unrealistic to slaughter the population of every city you own...So i try the more realistic and harder approach. I try to hold on to them rather than just slaughter them all...

The Roman Empire wasnt the land of chocolate, rainbows and kittens. It was kept together by governors terrorising local tribes and any and all troublemakers with the local military. The most realistic way to deal with rebelling locals from the Roman standpoint was to slaughter them in battle, then crucify the survivors and their families. Firm, but fair.


At a growth rate of 5% a city of 2400 will grow by 0% if you build a peasant unit every turn. A city with 20.000 will outgrow you by 880 people/ turn still if you buy a peasant/ turn. The time it takes to build the top 5 buildings takes 25 years and by that time your city will have grown to 71.113 people - mission impossible.

Most of the farming buildings (and agricultural temples) cause far more problems than they solve. I hardly build any of them. The squalor at 24,000 is 8% so if you can aim for that growth rate total, then should net to 0 growth when you hit 24,000. Slows growth, but like you said takes decades to build up each city level once you get past the first two levels anyway. Only thing that screws up the above is things like food imports, which mean Carthage and Co always run way out of control.

Dayve
10-12-2005, 20:07
Killing the trouble makers may be realistic, but letting a city rebel and then slaughtering everyone, trouble makers, non-trouble makers etc. 75% of the population is unrealistic. When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...

Ordani
10-12-2005, 22:40
When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...

You can bet they wanted to do so, regardless :>

With the implementation of squalor as it is in game, there is really no way to go about handling large populations. There were obviously historical cities of similiar or larger size that were not constantly in a state of insurrection. This is a feedback game mechanic that really has nothing to do with history, it's only there to curb the power curve of population.

Would be nice if there was some sort of penalty for killing your own people, it's simply too encouraging to pillage your own cities after you get the last level of buildings. Perhaps a mod that only allowed recruiting decent troops above a certain size -- that would even be historically accurate as it was extremely difficult to maintain large standing armies prior to the Industrial revolution due to the relatively tiny fraction of the population you could afford to have away fighting instead of working.

Dayve
10-13-2005, 00:05
But once cities reach a certain size they get the plague anyway...This trims down the population nicely... I think it's more realistic and more of a challenge to try to hold on to your cities rather than letting them rebel, because then it's more fun to slaughter them knowing you tried to hold the city and are now exterminating as punishment for rebelling against you, and to set an example to the rest of your empire to show them that rebellion will not be tolerated...Plus i honestly don't have a problem with holding cities, the farest i've played so far was 400AD. I got bored after that as i was unstoppable and able to win any war simply by throwing money and men at it, since i had the population and cash to do that...I was able to steamroll any opponents...Plus even at 400AD, a lot of my cities had over 30,000 population and i kept them happy with monthly/daily games, normal and low taxes, and relatively small garrisons...The largest garrison i had was 8 limitanei in Corduba. I don't use peasants as i find it too unrealistic.

So when an earth quake hit Corduba and killed off 9 thousand people i was happy. ~D <- that's how i looked. The city face was green for the first time in the campaign haha. I've gone off track... Where was i? AH yes, it would be nice if there were penalties to exterminating a city, but there should be bonuses to doing it too...If other cities found out you slaughtered a city for being rebellious, wouldn't it calm them down? Also exterminating a city should make that city useless and unprofitable and should really have an impact on your income...But it doesn't...Sometimes it's even the opposite in this game.

Sand
10-13-2005, 00:28
Killing the trouble makers may be realistic, but letting a city rebel and then slaughtering everyone, trouble makers, non-trouble makers etc. 75% of the population is unrealistic. When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...

Well, in the ancient world "payment in kind" for an army was to be let loose on the population of a captured city. People like Alexander the Great, who is viewed as either heroic or at least exceptional in most Western accounts, features as a demonic figure in Zoastrian (theyre actually still around today in parts of Iran, along with their fire which has apparently never been let go out in at least 2,300 years...) and Biblical/Islamic texts (apparently Alexander will return to lead the armies of Satan or somesuch) due to the massacres his army meted out to the empire they conquered. Realistically, as an emperor of a large, dispersed and unwieldy empire where it might take months to relay even news of a rebellion back to the capital you rule by making rebellion as unattractive as possible. That definitly includes nailing people to crosses if theyre so passionate about the sewer system overflowing that they take up arms about it.

Either way, to play the WRE campaign realistically youd have to engineer your ultimate defeat and overrun by the rampaging barbarian hordes. If the Romans made the right choices in the late 4th century, study of the Roman Empire might be current events rather than ancient history. We have the chance to "game" a potential alternative to their decisions, however inaccurate and unrealistic the rules of the game are. And the rules are hopelessly unrealistic to begin with anyway.


Would be nice if there was some sort of penalty for killing your own people, it's simply too encouraging to pillage your own cities after you get the last level of buildings. Perhaps a mod that only allowed recruiting decent troops above a certain size -- that would even be historically accurate as it was extremely difficult to maintain large standing armies prior to the Industrial revolution due to the relatively tiny fraction of the population you could afford to have away fighting instead of working.

Perhaps a permantly higher level of unrest in the aftermath of an extermination? The locals keeping alive the memory of some past crime against them by "the man" leading to sympathy with future rebellions. Another 10% with every extermination or something. Extermination becomes a short term solution for dealing with an irretrievable situation but it increases long term instability...

Mind you its long been a bug bear of mine that the distance to the captial penalty should be offset by ports/paved roads etc etc. Surely the penalty should be based on "lag" in communication rather than simple distance alone. Bah, If we started poking holes in the logic of the Public Order mechanics we'd be here for weeks.

PseRamesses
10-13-2005, 12:03
Dayve,
I too feel a bit awkward having to slaughter my own people and it´s a last resort but the game simply don´t give you enough options to handle this problem. You can rest ashore though that IF the WRE had to face this situation, that we do in the game, they would have spared no expense to root out the rebellion, kill the instigators and crucify all participants.
In my "3-step formula" I also kind of RP the scenario into a major change in religion, from paganism to christianity, which is quite historical. This way you can simply look at the exterminations as a kind of "holy war" against the pagans. After the initial "cleansing" I can´t recall having to do this again in my many games. One could raise all health related structures and invite the plague too if things spiral out of control.

So how is your "mixed game" evolving?

SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA
10-13-2005, 13:27
Killing the trouble makers may be realistic, but letting a city rebel and then slaughtering everyone, trouble makers, non-trouble makers etc. 75% of the population is unrealistic. When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...

Remember,Dayne,that Roman Empire of 4th-6th centuries A.D. was not the same as that of the Republic or the imperial Rome under the dynasty of the Antonini(Trajan,Adrian,Antoninus,Marcus Aurelius..).The Emperors could easily slaughter their own people in order to supress a rebellion
I can remember from history how the rebellion in Constantinople was supressed by Justinian.The same slaughter had also happened earlier in Thessalonica where 15,000 Romans were slaughtered by the Romano-Gothic army of Theodosius.

The same events must have happened throughout the empire at that times..

SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA
10-13-2005, 13:34
Remember,Dayne,that Roman Empire of ....

Sorry Dayve,I misspelled your name.

CXA
10-13-2005, 18:56
Good stuff from everyone!! As this is a pretty deep game, there are many options to winning. I don't think anyone here gave bad advice. I have used a bit of everything I have learned and am only about 20 provinses from taking the whole world over.

I will continue to read the advice from here as I will be trying VH/VH next.

Emperor Aurelius
10-14-2005, 00:17
This is one thing I dont like about what people think about ancient rome.They arent as bad as everyone makes them out to be.I have read various books on them.You would be surprised at how much the romans cared for the people they conquered . In judea for example, Jews were exempt from paying specific taxes and such.

Although by 400 A.D. ancient rome was no longer being ruled by enlightened despots and by just plain despots who lacked intelligence and integrity.

Garvanko
10-23-2005, 23:41
Interesting stuff. Im about to start a WRE campaign and am grateful to everyone's comments on this difficult faction.

Just one question though.. why does the empire have to be converted to christianity, as most of you did? Why not go for paganism? None of you seemed to go for that approach, especially considering the temple bonuses you get from them, plus the fact that any barbarian regions you conquer will mostly be pagan anyway..

PseRamesses
10-24-2005, 08:42
Just one question though.. why does the empire have to be converted to christianity, as most of you did? Why not go for paganism? None of you seemed to go for that approach, especially considering the temple bonuses you get from them, plus the fact that any barbarian regions you conquer will mostly be pagan anyway.
I´ve played both ways and in the end you can go either way. I think most players changed religion to portray history. However the differences lies in technology and buildings. It also seems to me that it´s easier to have a loyal population with christianity but I´ve no stats to confirm that statement so it might be a bit subjective. You can also play a mix with both religions based upon what beliefs are in majority in each settlement. However you will get a small unrest penalty.

CXA
10-24-2005, 19:12
I just finished taking over the whole map (only on Med/Med though). Whatever religion the town was I kept as long as it wasn't Z------- (sp). I tried my best to put governors in that were of the same religion since you will get a mixture of both. So the only unrest usual comes from the emporer and neighboring provinses. I had problems with unrest all throughout the game, but not enough to lose any sleep. I kept small mercenary only armies in key areas to help deal with any uprisings. I kept 6 groups of peasants in every city. If a city was having issues I would take them out and add them to the small mercenary group in the area. Let the city turn. All army buildings are destroyed so the majority of the rebels are peasants. It is an easy thing then to take the city back with your peasant mercenary group.

I will not go this route in my next campaign though. For fast advancement this was the way to go but I am going to take it slower now that I have upped the difficulty. I am now doing Goth on Hard/Hard. Most of the family members/generals are Christian so I have changed every cities religion accordingly. So far, much happier cites!!

Garvanko
10-24-2005, 20:03
You can also play a mix with both religions based upon what beliefs are in majority in each settlement. However you will get a small unrest penalty.
I thought about this, but Im not too sure I want to go THAT deep into micromanagement just yet. I think I'll go with Paganism for this campaign, though.

My thanks.:bow:

Garvanko
10-24-2005, 22:47
Well, Ive started my WRE campaign, fully prepared for the onslaught of riots, rebellion and little grean flags popping up left, right and centre. Of course, I immediately began a strategic retreat and rapid demilitarisation of my Empire, focusing specifically on Ebaracum, Aquinum, Salona, Augusta Treverum and Colonia Agripina. Tore everything down, moved every unit out and set taxes to very high, of course. They rebelled (WRER) a couple of turns later. I was looking to create buffer zones in Brittania, Eastern Europe and central France.

In Spain I gave up Salamatica. Unfortunately, Tarraco rebelled from me, as did Ravenna and Lepis Magna - a result really of low public order even though I had placed temples in the que and was looking to build a few units of peasants in each. I entered turn 2 in the black (surprisingly), though that would surely not last.

Nevertheless, I decided to go on the offensive straight away. I built an army in Spain and went straight for Tingi; had a large army in Europe with three Christian generals, including the famous, and potentially rebellious Nero Flavius (more on him later), a five star night fighter, which I sent to kill off Allemani. I also looked to take back Ravenna and Lepis so as to consolidate my grip on Italy and Africa.

A couple of points:

1. Ive kept a mixture of Pagansim and Christianity, and havent really suffered much rebellion. Italy is christian, as is Africa and parts of Spain, while the north is mainly pagan. Ive also set my faction heir to be pagan. Eventually I hope to make the whole Empire (apart from Italy) pagan, but that will need some careful man management.

2. Nero Flavius and his son Titus Flavius (at least I think its his son), are the two most lilely to rebel from your faction. Indeed as soon as I seiged Vicus Allemani, Nero's loyalty went from +2 to +1. ~:eek: The only way not to lose this valuable general is to transfer the office of Master of Soldiers from another General in the area (cant remember his name), and Nero will gain +2 loyalty, which should keep him in line for a while. Titus is more difficult. Im actually hoping he gets killed when I attack Lepis.


Currently, Ive done about six years. Ive retaken Ravenna. Ive gained Tingi and Vicus Allemani, and Im planning on getting Tarraco back - it is, after all, one of the victory conditions. I was in the red at -20000d, but Ive recovered economy wise and am just shading 1000d. I need a cash boost soon, as the hordes are coming.

Im playing H/H.:duel:

ravinnder
10-26-2005, 23:35
FYI, playing WRE campaign on H/H.

This point was already mentioned in a couple threads, but is important for WRE. In the mid to late game, you probably want your best army (or armies if you lucky) under the command of a loyal general (this fact applies even if they are the faction leader).

Alternatively, you can use captains only for full stack armies or switch generals frequently.

I'm not sure if my game is just extra hard, but I lost Spain not due to insufficient troops or money, but lack of loyalty. Twice my campaign army sent to Spain to recapture the provinces decided to mutiny. The final time, I sent a captain and took over the region and moved into France without problems.

That being said, the final army I sent was very experienced (retook Africa and defended against 2 hordes near Rome) and well equipped though still in the lower tier Roman units, so having a general would have been icing and not necessary to win battles.

LestaT
10-29-2005, 05:37
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?

PseRamesses
10-29-2005, 12:19
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?
I have a save game that I return to on a regular basis that fit your description however I kept the 4 Italian cities, Carthago, Syracuse, Caralis and Massilia. I raised all buildings in all other settlements, pulled the troops out and retook them and exterminated its population before leaving them completely. This generated som much cash that I was able to fill up the building- and unit building ques completely and still have around 50k in my treasury. I kept enough troops to have one stack holding the bridge in the Poo-valley and another the one outside Massilia.
Been playing for over 50 years and the Vandals have settled in Iberia, the Goths in south France, Franks have taken the rest of France, the Huns are settled in former Goth lands and Sarmatians has evicted ERE from Constantinople and Greece. My spies inform me that all the hording faction has atleast three settlements each and no horde units left with pretty decent garrisons so the are defenitely settled. I&#180;m waiting to see if the Vandals actually will make the jump to Carthage and Goth will move on their target provinces.
My goal now will be to retake the Balkans and Greece so that Danube will be my NE border. I bribed three settlements in the N.Black Sea and gave them to the Sarmatians so they will not turn into a horde when I take Greece from them but rather move back to their former homelands, he he.

BTW, has anyone else noticed how hard it is with 1.3 to give away a settlement?

McDoogle
10-30-2005, 01:10
there is on one of those split screen things while loading etc, a group of men in HORNED HELMETS with axes and shields destroying a villiage.

I have search through the custom battle thing and havnt been able to find these units. Does anyone have any ideas as to who they are and who they belong to?

Lettow-Vorbeck
11-11-2005, 12:09
Originally Posted by LestaT
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?

I really like this idea, looking at the map the Po valley is the natural line of defence for italy, while Massilia can help secure the valley from invasions form the west, wow i am hooked gonna try that tonight....

Vulcano
11-11-2005, 19:35
I read a post on the CA board that said it is easier to sell settlements than give them away. Has anyone tried this? If it works, that would be a killer WRE strategy.

Al: Total Gore
11-11-2005, 19:52
I can’t even get the computer to accept settlements for free. There is something seriously wrong with diplomacy in BI. It’s nearly impossible to get the AI to accept any terms. I can’t even get trade rights accepted.

gardibolt
11-11-2005, 22:42
I've been able to give trade rights away, but no one will pay for them any more. ~:mecry:

_Aetius_
11-29-2005, 02:34
The first time I played the WRE within 3 turns half the empire rebelled ~:joker: suffice to say I gave up there and then.

Anyway I started again earlier on H/H and im at 375 and ive held onto most of my territory, there was a rebellion in which Lepis in Africa, Salamancia (sp?) in Spain, a territory in central Gaul, Pannonia and Dalmatia were apart of. However i'd destroyed much military infrastructure so they were low class armies. BTW i'm using the Pax Britannia mod so the WRE starts without Britain and the Romano-British have it, anyway.

Religious problems were dealt with immediately by destroying 90% of pagan buildings, except in provinces where this was to risky and moving pagan and christian generals about. Rioting was fierce in Spain however in time this died down.

Ecnomically by destroying many buildings I propped the economy up along with disbanding many Foederati infantry and cavalry and a large percentage of my fleet.

Loyalty wise I moved the capital from Rome to Massilia, bang smack in the middle of the empire which has helped stopping Spain from rebelling totally. Things in Spain got better still when the territory which had earlier rebelled came back over to me peacefully through a loyalist revolt. This left the Gallic rebel territory isolated and within 5 years this territory and 2 others in the east were recovered from rebels and plenty of money was made.

Militarily, well I had no standing field army so I created provincial armies, small mobile light forces to deal with local rebellions and border skirmishers, this was the backbone of the raid which resulted in the destruction of the Alemanni after the conquest of their capital. Which so many cities exterminated I was able to build vital infrastructure, roads, trading posts, ports, farming, sewers and later military infrastructure in key locations.

After 10 years I was in a position to allocate serious funding to the army, my 1 field army was comprised of most of the garrison from Rome and other Comis and Foed (inf and cav) from the eastern provinces and is currently stationed east of the Alps to deal with the Frankish raids of Pannonia. In the west my provincial armed forces were designed purely for a holding action to keep the frontier stable without doing anything dramatic and they achieved this very well for very little expense

Navy, again after about 10 years the fleet with rebuilt to deal with the pirates which blockaded Syracuse (which I later allowed to rebel then exterminated) now I have control over the central med and adriatic again.

I've only gotten to 375 and done well I think, my treasury is currently at 10,000d making a modest profit of 1500 or so, in the last 1 or so though things have gotten harder. The Berbers reacted to a failed attack on Tingi by seizing Carthage after a bloody assault on the city, the Franks have also crossed the Danube and raided the territory heavily necessitating the constant presence of the I Italico legion to remain peaceful. The Franks have now began raiding the Rhine frontier which isnt guarded as heavily as I would like, but financial restraints are making it difficult to raise enough troops.

WRE is extremely enjoyable to play im glad to say ~D

Laman
11-29-2005, 08:02
Notes for two games with WRE.

1st. Took it easy, prevented rebellion, didn't attempt to christianize those that where too pagan until things were stable. Economy acceptable, but boring and with many pagans left to cause trouble.

2nd. Tried too enforce Christianity from beginning, not as easy as for the ERE (where it can be done in 1 turn), revolts, about -50k when profits where finally made (retook cities taken by WRE rebels), but more fun, and when things settle, economy was actually quite good (relatively speaking).

One important note whatever way is choosen, when you can build ports in those provinces that lacks them. And never forget the hordes, they will probably cause trouble sooner or later.

_Aetius_
11-29-2005, 15:41
I'm happy to say things have gotten alot better for me since i've been playing today, the main stumbling block is diplomacy though, i've offered ceasefires for 20 years to about 7 different factions and never had one accepted ~:confused:. Which is incredibly annoying and highly unrealistic especially when I offer great terms like territory for hordes etc. ~:confused:

Anyway my major enemy has been the Franks but in the last 8 years they were largely dealt with, the by now imfamous Nero Flavius was the commander of my eastern army with a alarming loyalty of 2. He crossed the Sava defeated the Franks multiple times then seizing campus quadi and campus marcomanni before exterminating them then abandoning them.

As this went on my western field army sought to relieve pressure on the Rhine by crossing the river and defeating 3 Frankish armies the marching north cleared the countryside of other Frankish armies before turning to Tribus Frisii which was captured and exterminated.

I never remained in these territories longer than 1 turn simply to replace lost troops, i'd then abandon it to the western roman rebels, who have created a buffer state from the Rhine to the Danube for me by using this policy. By now the Franks were a horde, having no more territory and soon enough they migrated to the Rhine this time though they are fighting the rebels and not me so I can sit back and reflect on enormously successful campaigns along the Rhine and Sava :duel: ~D.

Economy wise its still touch and go i've had to exterminate a few cities including Corduba to make money, and since the ERE blockaded my ports trade has plummeted and there is also war with the Huns in the east. I'm currently raising a small army to clear the birgands within the empire and then invade north africa for a quick raid before campaigning beyond the Rhine yet again. All in all its been far more fun than my old ERE saves ~D

Aetius22
12-04-2005, 17:42
Here are my thoughts on the Western Roman Empire, which in my opinion is the second or third hardest faction to play as:

As you start off your campaign you will see a lot of red angry faces in most of your towns. When you investigate why, you will notice that 25-45% of the population in France and Spain are Christian and the rest Pagan. There is also huge capital distance penalties.

Further investigation will also tell you that most of your settlements lack even basic ports! Your family members are a mix of Christian and Pagan, adding even more problems in certain towns where they are governors.

Seems pretty bleak so far right? Don't distress, there are three strategies available to us. I haven't tried them all, but I will "theorize" on possible strategies.

1. Leave your empire a mixture of Christian and Pagan towns: this is the strategy I chose. This gave me the least amount of rebelion. Only Carnuntun, and Salona rebelled. Ravenna rebelled because I was silly enough to convert it to Christianity first turn. Move Titus Flavius away from Lepcis Magna(or is it num?), you can keep him as a mobile reinforcement to both Lepcis and Carthage. Keep Lepcis as Christian.

Now you have to go to each city and adjust their tax rates, but before you do that move your capital to Massilia like everyone else has told you. Destroy military buildings to get some cash, and train some peasants to help keep your cities under control.

Carnuntun and Sallona are lost causes, destroy all buildings, build Christian temples and leave them to the rebels. That's my advice. It hopefully creates a buffer between you and the hordes. In Aquincun there is a mighty Christian general that you might want to move towards Ravenna. So you might want to leave Aquincum to the rebels also.

Also disband all fleets that you deem unnecessary. Chances are you will be in the red for a while. You have to try and get rid of as much of the fat in your military as you can.

Once you finally have turned most if not all cities to blue constipated faces you are ready for your next turn. Ok, now you are probably hemorraging money. Look at all you cities again, between Rome, Mediollanium and Ravenna you should be able to raise a nice sized army without throwing these cities into open revolt. You have three immediate enemies, the Franks, the Alemanni and the Saxons. Unless you have a modded game, the Alemanni don't form hordes. Kill them quickly. Your next mission is to prepare for a very likely Frank attack. I will assume you are a better player than me and know how to do this better.

As Christianity disappears from Spain and France you will be able to raise the taxes, and by capturing the Alemanni capital get a good cash boost from looting. After some 5-10 turns you should be breaking even or making some money. My priority as soon as I made some money was to build ports. After I built ports in all my cities I was bringing in about 8k per turn. After that The goal is to keep the Berbers at bay, I was at war with the Franks and I captured his capital with troops brought up from Italy (your major troops producing region after you destroyed your military buildings for cash in the beginning). Things were going ok, but it was still hard to raise an army since my focus was mainly economical buildup. I also figured out that using spies in combination with assassins can be a potent fun combination. I severly crippled the Franks by destroying their troop producing buildings in the town he got from me. Beware of Paladin bodyguards, they make short work of Foederati and Limitanei, 4 units of them will made short work of my garrison.

With a good economy it shouldn't be too hard to beat back the Franks and prepare for the other hordes. The Christian general from Aquincum can converts cities to Christianity in a flash so you can eventually turn most of your empire into Christianity if you choose.

Now for the next two options, and some heavy theory:

2. Turn your empire Christian on the first turn: this option has the least appeal to me. Basically you turn all of Spain and France Christian leaving yourself only Italy and North Africa. After doing this you could form armies in Spain and France with your generals in these regions and go around beating the crap out of the rebels. By looting the rebel cities you should make a good amount of cash.

With this cash surplus you can effectively build a solid economy and military. I just don't like loosing over half my empire and have to go around recapturing it all. It's like I am walking backwards.

The benefits of this strategy is that you have effectively turned your empire Christian, gave yourself nice juicy targets to loot and dealt with rebellion problems for a while. Hordes are invariably Pagan, so they will have issues taking your Christian cities because the AI doesn't destroy existing buildings. Your pagan generals will be used for the fighting so inevitably one or two will die in battle, and eventually they will die off. In my Frank game I switched to Christianity by assigning my only Christian member as King. After that all my new Generals were Christian. So you shouldn't have more than one or two new generals come as pagan.

I think this is the most challenging scenario.

3. Turn your empire pagan: if you have a mod that takes care of your Emperor becoming disloyal this can be an effective way of keeping Nero Flavius in check and be able to use him. Make him your heir, now you can use the same strategy as the first option, but now over time even Italy will be turned pagan. Use your Emperor as the lead against the Alemanni and see if you can't kill him on a suicide charge.

The benefits of going pagan is that most of your empire is already pagan anyways. The Mithras temple gives you experience bonuses, and with Nero as your emperor you have a good General to lead your armies without the risk of him going rebel on you.

Conclusion: I like the first and third methods. I prefer the historical slow Christian conversion. If you like a challenge I would go Christian right away, lots of looting and fighting to be done as you reconquer your empire. Of course you can vary any of these strategies to your liking. Perhaps you rather only sacrifice Spain to Christianity, or maybe just France and Britain. In short there's a lot of options for the WRE, and I don't think any one of them is the correct one. I do think that keeping a mixed empire until you can get the economy going is the easiest.

Aetius22
12-06-2005, 23:35
Apparently I made a mistake. Nero Flavius is Christian. Also I tried to turn the Empire Christian the first turn. That was a mess. Even after taking back most of my Empire I just couldn't make enough money to get out of the red. The looting money wasn't enough to cover my army's upkeep. And I didn't want to eliminate them outright.

I guess I will just go back to option 1.

_Aetius_
12-08-2005, 18:52
Not sure whether or not I should be happy at the moment im upto 422 and after the Franks horded in Central Gaul I had to chase 4 full stacks down with only 1 stack. Smashing them in 3 seperate battles and then wiping up the remaining Franks they were totally destroyed relieving me of 1 major threat permanently. Which was great of course.

Things elsewhere though have deteriorated, the Saxons breached the Rhine frontier and seized Germania Inferior and then exterminated the population, the city has been retaken but its now in ruins. Pirates now sail unchallenged throughout most imperial waters, one hastily gathered fleet was crushed on the coast of Gaul by a pirates fleet of some 18 ships. With the expense of training a fleet and building aqueducts etc i'm effectively bankrupt, having to resort to allowing corduba to rebel to exterminate it and get money.

The Berbers gained more territory against me in North Africa leaving me with the city of Tingi as my last outpost and Sicily seems hellbent on rebelling, to make matters worse throughout all the chaos of the Frankish invasions I didnt have time to keep my authority over the brigands who have popped up throughout the empire again.

I'll give BI this, it keeps me busy alright ~:joker:

masuro
12-17-2005, 16:10
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?

I tried it today and it won't work for me. I pulled out my troops, destroyed all the buildings, and let it revolt. A few of the cities become the Western Roman Rebels and the others just kill soldiers and citizens. They don't become regular rebel cities. And many of the Western Roman Rebel cities flip back to me. I can't give the cities away to anybody, not even allies. I am now about 50,000 in debt and can see no way out of it.

Garvanko
12-17-2005, 20:29
Don't just disband everything haphazardly. Disband systematically, and keep checking the financial side. The first turn needs total micro-management - its your most important phase as the WRE.

_Aetius_
12-17-2005, 22:06
You should disband most of your cavalry and Foederati infantry they cost to much and arent that useful anyway, your generals units are more than powerful enough and foederati infantry are pathetic you need to aim for 30,000 den army upkeep for the army to be financially viable. Also get rid of some of the navy, you just cant maintain the size of the armed forces you currently have.

Aetius22
12-18-2005, 06:27
Right. If you go for the Italy only option you have to get rid of your fleet, and all of the armies of the cities you are deserting. They should all turn to the WRER. All you need are your family members to take those towns back if you got rid of all buildings in them.

I decided to try turning my empire Christian in the first turn and was quite successful. I am not turning a 6-8k a turn profit with two field armies. I have already defeated the Gothic hordes and the Alemanni. I drove the Franks away and only Burdigala and Eburacum are in the hands of the WRER. Unfortunately Carnuntun, Salona and Aquincun were sacked by the Vandals. Until I get rid of them I won't bother getting them back.

The downside of using your Generals to do all your fighting, you don't get many heirs. The huns seem to always settle in Tribus Lazyges after they sack Campus Dacia and force the Goths into a horde.

The trick to being sucessful with the WRE is cutting your forces down enough so that you can keep your cities content, but turn a profit in a reasonable time. The first couple of turns are key.

_Aetius_
12-18-2005, 15:56
You only need to defend the frontiers cities from invasion, its bad because that means the interior of your empire is very soft, but you cant afford it so thats just to bad.

Some people fall into the trap of attacking brigand armies, you have the men to beat many of them, but you dont have the money to replace men or retrain them. So you'll just have to accept the fact the brigands dominate the countryside for now, peasant stack cities in the heart of your empire, central gaul, spain and southern italy, basically areas relatively deep inside your empire therefore less likely to be attacked. Make sure the Alemanni are destroyed immediately just get an army and take their single province, problem solved right there.

Aslong as you hold the frontiers and have sufficient archers in walled cities you should hold 90% or so of your starting territory, depending on your religious policy and the subsequent western rebels appearance and how many provinces go over to them. Just make sure atleast 1 field army is present on the Rhine at all times, you'll also need atleast 1 for the eastern provinces along the Sava (very hard to hold so dont be to worried if you lose it) aside from that most of your enemies are to far away or to small to be dangerous alone so aslong as the frontiers are well guarded you'll survive.

If brigands become a problem and seriously drain trade, then make an army from local garrisons and a spare general and try defeating them that way, just dont waste men and money on trying to eradicate them all though. Brigands tend to hire veteranii mercenaries (sp?) who are as good as Comis so are extremely good heavy infantry. Also do what you can against the pirate fleets, you cant afford a big fleet it just costs to much to train ships in the first place so just do what you can.

Aetius22
12-22-2005, 00:27
I went back and tried to turn my empire Christian in the first turn. I left Mediolanium, Arles, Massilia, Rome, Ravenna, a city to the North of Mediolanium, the heel city (Tarentum?), Carthage, Lepcis Magna, Syracuse, Caralis and Londinium alone. I then disbanded every army in the cities that I was going to turn Christian and give to the rebels. I also destroyed everybuilding that I could.

With that money I built Christian shrines, and peasants wherever I needed to keep the population in check. The family members that were in France and Spain were herded together to form two armies. In Spain I went on a Reconquista. In France I was determined in wiping out the Alemanni, and hopefully the Franks.

It took two turns for my empire to split. The Reconquista took longer than I thought it would, mostly because I underestimated the WRER's ability to produce massive amounts of peasants. I quickly smashed the Alemanni, but the Franks had already taken two cities to the east. I then took Vicus Franki from them.

In the mean time I tried to put together an army at Ravenna to deal with the incoming hordes. To lead this army I used the General that was stationed at Aquincun, who thankfully has the night fighting ability.

Once I took Vicus Franki, I left an able general in charge and took Nero Flavius, now caesar, on a tour of France. By this time I got Colonia Aggripina on a revolt.

The hordes are at my doorstep now. The Vandals and the Goths go into war, but never fight each other, so I have to start trying to kill them both. Thanks to a series of forts I was able to hinder their movement and kill them one stack at a time with my night fighting general.

One thing that I noticed about the WRE, is that you really don't need high level troops. The Sarmatian Auxilia and the Comitatenses are more than enough to conquer the world. Though the carriage ballistae are very fun to play with.

Ok, so by this time I have beaten back the Franks, the Hordes are thining out and most of France is in my possession. This is about the time that I decide to turn back towards the Saxons, because they decided to attack me. The Reconquista is in its last stages.

Through all of this the Berbers have kept annoying me at Carthage. But their troops really suck, so they are not a problem.

Nero Flavius conquers the Saxons, while I try to finish off the Vandals. The Goths were quickly anihilated on their attempt at penetrating my very soft empire. I mean if you get past my army, all you had to deal with were peasant garrisons.

By the time I dealt with the Saxons, killed off the Vandals and Goths, the Franks had a nice little Empire of four provinces going. Time to take it down. At this time the Lombardi decided that they needed to take the only Burgundian town. And there I was stuck trying to take care of yet another horde! Nero Flavius to the rescue. This guy lived to be like 72, and everytime he exterminated a town, I got like 50% more cash. He was also the highest level general I have ever used. I think he was a 9 star General? I don't remember lol.

I finally retake Burdigala leaving only Eburacum to the WRER. From here on out it was very easy going. The Franks didn't offer much resistance, the Burgundians were a walk over, and the ERE's only attempt to take Aquincun failed miserably at my walls. They had a superior army, but couldn't capitalize on it.

I marched on to take Sirmium and then Constantinople.

Ah, this was easier than trying to play as Sarmatia. The trick to the WRE is the beginning. Once you start turning a profit it's not hard to win the game. You have two night fighting generals which help immensily when fighting the hordes. And you have four factions around you that don't horde, which are not very hard to eliminate. Well the Celts never attacked me, so I never fought them, but I doubt that they are much tougher than the Saxons.

Sextus Caecillius
12-24-2005, 20:14
Are there any guides for the Western Roman Empire Rebels?

nameless
01-08-2006, 03:13
A good Plan B to have as the WRE is to take your legions and cavalry from Rome, send them to Africa to crush the Berbers. The Berbers only have two cities with one coastal city. If you take out the coastal city their pretty much screwed and then you can move into the interior and destroy their last city. This ensures that Africa is completely in your control so if something happens to Rome and such, at least you'll have a good place to fall back to with the ocean covering as distance.

Once the Berbers are crushed, just send the remaining troops back to Italy. The Berbers are not that hard to take on with your heavy legions.

Mithras
01-14-2006, 19:10
I decided to take a different path-rather than convert the empire to Christianity I decided to revert to paganism. Most of what I do here can be applied to most divided religion factions in either end of the fence.

To start with I switched my faction heir to the most prominent pagan within the empire and after transferring all his cronies to this heir I sent him on a suicide mission to hold the eastern provinces against the oncoming hordes. By using Christian characters as generals rather than governors I avoided the issue of cross religion clashes in the Empire. To compensate for the limited amount of pagan characters I trained several at Rome who all turned out pagan. In regards to choice of temple I recommend your ‘strong points’ (major cities you plan to garrison with a large army as a base of operations in the region) have Mithras temples. Allowing for meaty bonus’ for the army in terms of experience allowing them more clout to fight the invasions. In non-key cities I recommend sol invictus for the superior law bonus to keep the population happy.
I actually found paganism reversion to be easier than Christian consolation. This I suspect is because of how easy it is to control the Christian cities since they're all close to the Imperial core. I built a monastery before trashing the cathedral in Rome allowing me to build priests despite my now 100% pagan population...if anyone asks they're priests of Mithras (ahem) and if anyone disagrees with me I know where they live and I'm the emperor ~:pat: . I did however keep Carthage Christian. This was because of its distance from the capital (moved further north). It also gave me somewhere to 'deport' Christian governors with their bits of the one true cross, john the Baptists underpants and all those theologians. The vast wads of cash I receive having fully revitalized cartages economy make this worthwhile.


This combined with my tendacy to hire 'pure' roman units is and repaired economy is gradually sending the roman empire on the road back to the its old glory.



dun dun dunnnnnn duh du du du
dah dah duuuuuunnn.....


more to come as the game progresses

Aetius22
01-18-2006, 06:08
IIRC there are a lot more pagan generals than Christian. Though the Christian generals seem to be better. I think as long as you can make the Empire turn a profit it doesn't matter what religion you choose.

Crian
01-30-2006, 11:01
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?

Hey I tried this! It was really interesting, instead of pulling your hair out from all the problems popping all over the empire, why not start from a more manageable position then build up from there, right? First, however, you have to CREATE that situation. :2thumbsup:

EVERYTHING other than the cities you want to have left MUST be forced to rebel. Disband every unit in every city outside of Italy (personally, I chose to retain Syracuse, Lepcis Magna and Caralis?) and crank taxes up to very high. Retain a sizeable force for defense though. At the next turn, your money will get a boost of around 20,000, along with most (if not all) those cities going rebel. :laugh4:

However, I almost immediately realized that this situation created all new problems. Now you get significantly smaller income, and pirates are all over the place disrupting what little trade you get. I decided to lose the emperor, and get a new one. First, consolidate your navy in one place so they can defend better. Next, get a better faction leader. The governor of Caralis (don't remember his name), has 6 or so management scrolls, and I set him as the faction heir. Meanwhile, all my other rebellious, nearly talentless generals (including the faction leader) were placed on a solitary brireme, and were set out to sea to look for pirate ship stacks that would sink them. I placed the new faction heir in Rome. :2thumbsup:

While you're doing this, you can actually go red or have little income for 10+ years, struggling to develop your trade. Cities will constantly join with you, only to go rebel again after a few turns. I suggest not to invest into any loyalist revolts unless you can make sure you can maintain control of the city. The Eastern Roman Empire will almost always go to war with you, but they have bigger fish to fry and so you can expect that you won't be number one in their list. The big picture is that almost everyone else will be at war with someone, and so you have a small margin of safety during this vulnerable phase. Remember that force you didn't disband? You're going to need them in case anyone starts knocking. Choose a religion: either be Christian or Pagan, I don't really care much but I personally hate those "Virtue of Poverty" traits that devoted Christian family members almost always get. Armies fielded by the Green WRE Rebels will contain many peasants, and provided you have sufficient skill, you can fend off every attack they send. Maintaining happiness in the cities you have left will also be your primary goal. Along with trade buildings, you should also get buildings that improve happiness. Considering how expensive all of this is, it will be a while before you get to a stable situation.

In my campaign, I had to wait 20+ turns to get a constant income of 5,000 per turn. Only then did I send two 3-quarter stacks to recapture Mediolanium and Greece. I have two stacks of 10 briremes and 2 triremes each, and at least my part of the sea is secure. I'm only on this part of my campaign right now, Italy is happy and secure, and I'm only beginning to stretch my iron fist once more. This is version 1.6 at just M/M, and though I'm confident that I'll win, there will probably still be setbacks. When I finish this I'll try again at VH/VH :2thumbsup:

Crian
01-30-2006, 11:26
I tried it today and it won't work for me. I pulled out my troops, destroyed all the buildings, and let it revolt. A few of the cities become the Western Roman Rebels and the others just kill soldiers and citizens. They don't become regular rebel cities. And many of the Western Roman Rebel cities flip back to me. I can't give the cities away to anybody, not even allies. I am now about 50,000 in debt and can see no way out of it.

Only saw this now after my earlier post... :oops::sweatdrop:

Try doing it at M/M first, that's what I did. Don't just pull out your troops, disband them. You won't need all of them at once anyway and they're expensive. Crank the tax rate to VERY HIGH in the cities you want to rebel, this gives you an immediate cash influx that you can use to set construction cues to the cities left to you. This also ensures that they WILL rebel. You will be forced to have only one defensive army probably in Italy because of your low income, and your skill in battle will be essential because it will be a while before you can send out grand legions in a mission to conquer the world. Your first turns will be defensive. Try getting a faction leader with better management skill (the guy on the island west of Rome is a good candidate). In case of a loyalist revolt, don't invest on it, chances are it will go rebel again anyway. Hope this helps. :2thumbsup:

Oh and BTW, I don't think Roman cities in BI ever turn to normal rebels so that's one thing you have to contend with.

Mithras
01-30-2006, 13:41
I've found an effective and cheap method of crushing the early revolt/s is to sepertate your empire into five areas: Italy, spain, france and Briton. Abandon the south eastern provinces (put the emperor there if you wish to revert to paganism: suicide mission). Then pull all good (Foederati Infantry and above) troops in each region to the command of it's most loyal general while disabanding all Foederati Cavalry. Wait for the 'hit' to occur and then move on the most prominant cities in each area. Once these are taken systematicly retake all cities in each province and exterminate/enslave the populace. This will make it easier to convert them to your chosen faith as a bonus as well as providing nice meaty injections of cash to your struggling economy this should help beat the empire into a shape in which it will be able to realisticly oppose the hordes. The fact that your army generals and legions will now be battle hardened halps as well.
The north eastern provinces must be protected at all times The gaul army instead of being used to put down the revolt should be used to defend the borders. Have the spanish army move into Gaul once spain is consolidated and put down the uprisings with that. Always have a large army or crack troops in Nothern italy at all times. The barbarians will pour into nothern italy, my map is doted with major battle markers is a testement to this. After consolidation have a small siege army in every sub-section (3comitares, 2 archers and 2 siege engines) to put down any further revolts
The south eastern provinces will fall. However if you let them revolt then that will mean that their will be a miltary presence in the area when the horde comes buying you time to beat your empire into shape.

Quick tipes
-obliterate the Burbers and saxons quickly, if you can't hold their cities simply obliterate the faction and then move on they won't horde so their demise will lighten the load for you without hording.
-primary building targets are economic ones: Roads, harbors, trading posts


from the writtings of Augustous Maximus-the butcherer of christians and small kittens.

Mithras
01-30-2006, 13:59
I've found an effective and cheap method of crushing the early revolt/s is to sepertate your empire into five areas: Italy, spain, france and Briton.

.


Minor correction- the fith region is africa You, only really need to hold on to carthage as a waypoint for the latter african invasion for trade

Crian
01-31-2006, 14:48
In general, when playing as the WRE the idea is to be able to get yourself out of your initially disastrous position while maintaining most (if not all) of your provinces. This in itself is quite a challenge and requires quite a bit of skill to pull off, even in M/M.

I've decided to play differently though, and instead play pre-republican style: pulling back to Italy and expanding again once my position has stabilized (LestaT posted about a similar idea and I was encouraged more when I saw someone else talk about it :laugh4:), essentially "rebuilding" the empire. I had an old M/M game playing this way and I was successful with it. I didn't finish it and decided to start a new one on VH/VH. I'm really enjoying this method right now and I'll post a more thorough guide about it in a couple of days once I've progressed significantly (with screenshots :2thumbsup:).

OK I know this is a worthless post but I'm so excited I had to put it in, please bear with me.... :sweatdrop: ... :shame: ... :laugh4:

Crian
02-20-2006, 15:03
It's been two weeks since my last post :sweatdrop:, and I was trying to do the earlier idea of disbanding everything outside of Italy and trying to conquer the world from there (like in the Republican campaign). I had moderate success with a M/M game but it wasn't the same in VH/VH. :no:

I played, overall 4 WRE campaigns on VH/VH and disbanded everything and tried to conquer from there. The first one I was sucessful, but it wasn't until 450 AD until I was able to conquer the cities NEAREST me. The second one was also successful, but it wasn't (again), until 450 AD when I began conquering. The next two I tried to be more aggressive, but I utterly failed. When hordes started knocking I was barely able to keep them out, and then another set of hordes started coming, it was crazy :dizzy2:.

I wanted to create a more comprehensive guide (I said I'd do it in a couple of days :embarassed:), but until I get a satisfactory outcome I'll postpone it. Overall, this is NOT a recommended way to play. It is a huge chore to do and it's probably better to micromanage your way into keeping your empire intact from the beginning (unless you want things even harder). I'm starting my 5th game and hopefully I'll get it right :wall:. Cheers all! :laugh4:

Keba
02-26-2006, 20:40
After getting BI, naturally, the first campaign was the WRE, on VH/M.

So, instead of the historical route of conversion to Christianity and an attempt to maintain the entire Empire, I decided to retreat back to Italy, disband all forces outside it, and attempt to restore my Empire once the core has become stable.

First thing ... I razed all buildings in all cities outside Italy. The new border went through the Alps. The Emperor wrote a nice, heartfelt letter to the rest of the Empire where he said: you're on your own.

On the first few turns, I had to micromanage Italy to prevent rebellions. Keep one army in Italy (preferrably an elite one, but any can do in a pinch), fill the other cities with pesants (or Limitanei if you feel that pesants are unrealistic ... like I do). If any city seems close to rebelling, level the military buildings, retake it, and exterminate the population. Also, concentrate on building up trade, as well as happines buildings.

Within a decade, the core provinces should be rich, powerful and stable. At this point I decided to convert to Paganism. Several turns of nail-biting and Christianity was officialy gone in the WRE, as was the old Christian Emperor. The new Emperor was Pagan, one of my best governors.

The Western Roman Empire soon became a power (again), and the WRE rebels were no more than a nuisance, usually being broken on the walls of Massilia. Around this time, my main field army policy was switched from being in command by a General to being commanded by a Captain, after one General decided that he was the better Emperor than the current one and joined the WRE rebels. He immediately departed for Gaul to gather more troops for a march on Rome itself. Around that time, the Vandals invaded Gaul for the first time, thus saving my skin, and buying me time to recruit another field army.

Since that time, I have driven back the Alemanni, and taken their cities north of the Alps, securing my northern flank. The western flank was secured after my forces took another province, relieving the pressure from Massilia. The Vandals also helped, as they settled in Gaul and took to battling the WRE rebels.

On the east however, the ERE has been wiped out, holding on barely to Egypt, the islands of the Mediterranean and a scattering of other provinces. The Asian parts of the Empire were taken by the Sassanids, the European by the Huns. In an effort to aid my old allies who still held the western coast of Greece, I marched on Salona. The city fell easily, but the Huns managed to take it within several years, while my main army was busy in Northern Italy.

By now, the Saxons have been wiped out (by the Slavs), the Sarmatian hordes were crushed in Northern Italy (by me in one huge battle) and the Alemanni are now fighting the Huns and Goths in Pannonia.

The Romano-Britons have not appeared yet, as the WRE rebels seem to have an alliance with the Celts. The Celts have three full stacks waiting around in their territory, faced with only a few hundred WRE rebels. Kept me quite confused when my spy reached the province after a very long boat trip.

One of my most entertaining campaigns, ever.

Avicenna
03-08-2006, 16:56
Is there any way to keep hold of the provinces and not abandon them? While getting some income. Or is the income so bad that you MUST abandon Europe and disband units in order to protect yourself sufficiently without going thousands into debt?

Keba
03-08-2006, 23:49
You can keep all provinces. It's tricky, and your treasury will go into the nether regions ... but it offers a greater base of power should you succeed. To attempt to restore money in the treasury, you must adopt an agressive policy toward barbarians ... take their towns, exterminate, raze all buildings, leave. Also, destroy buildings you don't need in your provinces (such as barracks in Hispania, etc.).

You won't be able to keep all of your provinces ... it is likely that at least a few will rebel ... take the towns and exterminate ... it will bring in money, and you will teach those rebellious scum a lesson.

It is likely that you will be overrun in at least some areas ... North Africa and Brittania are the most likely candidates. Leave them be, they can be retaken later.

Use the money you've made with your raids to build up roads, ports, traders, and other buildings to improve income. Once you do these things ... you have a steady income and can begin retaking lost areas ... and unifying the Empire once again.

Once you have stabilized the Empire and have a steady cash flow coming in, you can get to converting your Empire to either Christianity (it offers some impressive bonuses, but the population growth it offers is problematic, you have too much population as it is) or Paganism (Mythra offers some advantages to military units, Sol Invictus has exceptional bonuses to happiness). This will likely cause unrest, and possibly, revolts. You cannot allow these religious fools to destabilize the Empire, capture the rebelling cities and exterminate them to teach them a lesson (plus, it makes conversion go more easily).

Afterward, you really shouldn't have much of a problem ... once you get past the initial problems, you are easily the most powerful faction around, as the sole opposition to the West are inferior barbarians (watch out for the hordes, once they come, you are in deep, deep trouble, and they will come if you attempt to keep the entire Empire intact), while the East will likely be busy with the Sassanids and the Huns (if not completely overrun). The only civilized faction likely to oppose you are the Romano-British, but they can easily be subdued.

gardibolt
03-08-2006, 23:53
Along those lines, you should get any general with Night Fighting ability over to the eastern end of the empire to head an army quickly to deal with the hordes when they come. Night fighting and defending sieges behind stone walls are the best ways to deal with them.

Avicenna
03-10-2006, 17:36
Nero probably wouldn't stay Flavian for long... and go rebel if he has too many victories under his belt. Should a new, younger general be trained and Nero killed after mopping up some Eastern stacks for Greece?

Mithras
03-17-2006, 20:01
Reclaiming Romes glory by maximus the imdomable, mithratic raven

Overview: Rome has not done well over the last century. Since the reighn of the five good emperors the empire has torn itself apart and been stappled back together by Diocletian, argueably that last great emperor. The arrival of christianity under Constantine has divided the people further. After the fall of the last pagan emperor the empire is set to explode through overstreched burgoning military, being sliced in two, economic collapse and religious styfe. It will take an emperor on par with Marcus auralius or Octavius Augustus to make rome great again.

playing as western roman pro's & con
Pro's
Despite Romes weakness there is still potential for greatness. Rome's troop choice, despite diluation with unwashed barbarians, is still very good and offers a broad variety of tactical styles and is still one of the upper teer armies of the campaigh. The economy if repaired, could churn out huge wads of cash every turn and ultimatly ,if you want a challenge this is as tough as rome:total war gets.

Cons: the empire is a primed grenade in your hand- you have no room for error and even if you make all the right moves it's still gonna hurt. All sections of the empire have been deliberatly set up to implode even before the hordes start showing up. Religious strife is tearing the empire apart,. the economies a wreck and your military might is dispersed into all over the empire in low tech (useless) units. Even if you whip your empire into shape you'll still have to worry about hordes, loyalty and religious issues. But then again if the empire had been easy to defend we'd still be speaking latin!

Religion
I've noticed that many player take one look at the monestery and jump on the Jesus bandwagon. Despite the obvious perks of sighning up for the Jehova it isn't as simple cut as it initially looks. Their are perks of both sides and which faction you choose is a lot more complex than a 15% happyness bonus. It's also worth noting that the situation varies from faction to faction on a number of differant ratios rather than trying to access religion as a whole it's better to study it faction by faction.

Paganism
Pro's
paganism has access to two very good temples within the empire-mithras and solar invictus. Now despite my opnion that their isnt enough time and detail put into either of these shrines (they should both easily have 5th teer production and Mithras should have loads of awsome personality traits and unique retinue members) both the pagan temples are very useful. Mithras is not only a warrior shrine but also gives a nice loyalty boost to law and happyness which means that pagan settlement armies will usually unit for unit be superior to their christian counterparts. Solar invictus is a good solid public control shrine with a very meaty bonus to population loyalty in fact it's slightly better than the christian ballicia (although the latest patch evens it out more). Theirs also the consideration that the bulk of your cities are pagan meaning that it's easier to consolidate. Due to you initial religious distribution of faiths in the map your mostly pagan barbarian pals easier to pacify when you start marching across the rhine to remind them of the good old days. The bulk of family members are pagan so if you do switch back then you'll be saving most of your members who would have otherwise been problamatic when governing with the wrong shrine or even finding themselves in the Rebel camp becouse of internal uprisings. Finally games seem to be in favour of the old ways and logicly this means they function most fluidly in a pagan empire.

Cons
No priests: although not as devstating as missing say...paladins, the absence of priests is still something to be noted. ultimatly christianitys happyness bonus is way higher than paganism's meaning that overall christianity makes for a happier population. Plus you don't get theological goodies as pagans ( 'artifacts' found by constantines mum and weird theologicans in your retinue) which are very useful for law and happyness. finally you'll have to deliberatly kill your emperor and change the faction heir if you want to go Pagan loosing one family member and damaging one (former faction heir trait) weakening your already unsteady empire.

Christianity
Pro
Christianity gives the player access to the monstery ladder. allowing for a usefull 5-15% bonus to happyness and access to monks which are useful in the low tech cannon fodder you may be forced to field early on. The started emperor is christian, as is his heir which of coarse makes christianisation all the smoother. Christian temple are also the highest teer temple allowing for the most bonus' to population in general. The christian sturctures have population growth bonus' which allow for rapid climbing on the governor building ladder. You can also gain a huge and often vital cash boost from trashing all those pagan sites to help get your economy back on the road. barbarian factions tend to be pagan meaning they will have a hard time dealing with your christian cities if you capture one. Finally christians get all kinds of cool retinue stuff famous theologians, bishops and bits of the cross all come with fairly nice features such as law bonus' .

Cons
Firstly the bulk of your empire is ultimatly pagan, the bulk of your cities veiw christianity the same way I veiw jehova's witnesses:avoid at all costs. If you attempt to convert your empire too fast and to carelessly you will suffer a truly brutal uprising resulting in the emerging green rebels becoming a full fledged faction within your own borders: very very bad. If your going to christianise do it slowly and gently, starting in italy spreading out into Gaul while waiting to the pagan/christian family member ratio to slip in your favour. Unit for unit pagan Mithratic armies are better than christian armies: the priest simply doesnt have the same clout as the experiance bonus (although better still why not combine both?). The population growth bonus while usefull can often be something of liability if you don't have the money to upgrade goverment buildings as it constantly pushes up the poverty bar through population at the highest tier of buildings. Finally, something that George bush is living proof of (just kidding) christianity creates negative charecter traits. Large numbers of my christians (about 2/3rds at one point) join one or another heresy increasing unrest or make those damnned vows of poverty cutting my cash flow.While I think that their are negative pagan traits they're not on par with the problems christianity causes to family member personality (although I could be wrong they may be religious caused even if they don't look it) although it should noted their are quite a few 'good' christian traits to help ease this problem.

Overall both christianity and paganism have solid perks and problems. I believe it's ultimatly up to the discretion of the player which one he chooses. One thing I will say that you must choose. trying to balance the empire between christian and pagan requires resoarces beyond your capability although you can maintain some shrines for the opposite religion. You will have to favour one for simply practical purposes. I choose pagan intially becouse I wanted a differant experiance to what i did with the eastern empire (to which most of what has been said here can be applied).

Side notes

1)A little trick I picked up on was that once a monestery is built it doesnt matter what religion you follow in the region. Meaning in a number of formally christian sites still had the happyness boost when I converted them: also allowing me access to priests from a 100% pagan population which I dubbed priests of Mithras......if anyone in the empire comments on this I'll remind them I'm the emperor and I know where they live.I assume this is simply the pagans taking control of areas when they've reclaimed them from christians
2)If I was going for a smash and trash attack or if a region was about to fall I'd build a shrine opposite the religion of the people making it very hard to hold for whoever set up shop when they took the region.Especially if the conversion is still lower than the overall conversion bonus for other faiths: I remember being darkly amused watching the Allemani tribe have to fight a constant battle to keep their capital.
3)Whichever faith you choose to favour keep 2-3 of your cites of the other faith. This will give you somewhere to drop of family members of that faith and allow you limted access to the perks of that religion (priests or experiance bonus) good areas for christianity are north africa and for paganism great britain.
4)For love of all that is sacred do not decide who to side with on what religion you follow in life!
a) data streams do not have souls
b)combine the most radical terrorists and weird apocalypse cults of the modern world and that's what the christians of the 4th century looked like: not only really voilent and intolerant but also completly insane.
c)Pagans are almost as bad and in some repects, worse.
d)Neither religion resembles their modern counterparts very much.
Choosing which religion to side with should be a pure strategy, terms of challange or at a pinch asthetic preferance. If you're deciding how to play computer games on what god/s think then I'm probably going to avoid you if i see you one the street. Choosing religion on asthetic preferance is fine choosing religion out of spiritual concerns is just plain weird.
5)If you're pagan keep and eye out for any really good shrines in barbarian lands and retrain your armies there: you may even get lucky and pick up some good retinue followers.
6)Trash any Zorostrian temples you get immediatly.
7)try to make sure Generals are of the lesser religion: that way they won't have personality defects from spending time with the wrong temple.


Loyalty/titles
A serious issue in the western empire. Not only do revolts cause disruption but also cause defects in family members and fully functioning enemy factions within your lands squandering vast amounts of precious resoarces to quell them. Firstly keep an eye on loyalty bars, try to make sure that powerfull generals and governors have a title and watch them. A good trick I found was to make the emperor head of at least one army ensuring that at least one army (usually the best overall) would never betray me (latest patch emperors can't defect). I also found keeping a small but potent army led by a captain in spain, italy, britain and other geographical blocks meant that if a family member defected their would be someone to restore roman law in any region.Fighting rebels will be discussed below: these are more measures to prevent or react to rebellion.

Units

peasants
As in all total war games: pathetic cannon fodder. Their uselessness is magnified in this game since they can't be relied on to control populations anymore. The only real use I could find for them is as sappers and arrow shields. Simply put if any other unit is available it does not matter what you want just use anyone else instead

Limitanei:
the 'limes' are very simular to the town watch in the first game. the limes fufill the role of cannon fodder and guarding cities from internal stife and external assaults. Useful for defending cities from sieges where their throwing spears can cause some nasty casualties while forcing the enemy to waste time and lives on the walls. I wouldnt recommend using them in the field as they will be outnumbered by their barbarian low-tech counterparts and outgunned by non-peasent units. use in cities or to break bandits. Leaving real soldiers free to fight proper battles.

Archers:
Bog-standard archers: you know what to expect here. Unfortuantly they're the only archer unit you get so they'll be the ones you use. good at defending cities and supporting fire. They're usefull in fighting horse archer armies and whiddling down the enemies numbers prior to attack or their attack. They can also be used to shoot damned horse archers very. Since their the only archer unit you have their the ones your stuck with. On the bright side their numbers are easily refreshed due to their low tech level so their field time is far superior to a number of units they'll be fighting along side.

Foederati
As much as I hate filthy barbarians, The foedereti are the first good unit you get. Able to fight quite well They'll be used extensilvly in early game where you'll need them to make up the numbers of your commitares with these guys. Use them as standard spearmen: to engage cavalry, hold positions or defend walls and you can't go far wrong. I would recomend replacing them with auxilerie palicia in mid game (less barbarians more romans!) since their superior in everyway. Very usefull as local defence militias against bandits and rebels, not so good against hordes.

Foederati Cavalry
You'll have loads of these at the start but you should disband them imediatly becouse they cost too much money and are frankly rubbish. They're usefu in the bog standard sort of way for standard light cavalry roles: flank attack, killing light infantry and running down the enemy when they rout however they cost to much, and you need that money elsewhere. By the time you're able to afford them Samatian cavalry is more largely available. which are far better in every respect (plus they look cooler). Simply put don't bother.

Priests
An interesting unit. Let me ask you question why would druids not be as useful to a roman army than they were to the Gauls? answer: Becouse romans have high moral and good fighting capabilites so don't need a bunch of chanting weirdos to hold them together. The same applies here: the higher teer roman units don't need a priest, especially if they're raised in a mithras settlement. Simply put for Romans you're better off having another unit of comitatanes in the field or more acuratly, raising two units of comitatanes in the time it takes to raise one unit of priests. That said, for low tech or city guard armies the priest comes into his own with half hearted pansy squad you'll probably be forced to use in the initial stages of the campaigh (all troop types listed above this unit) they need the priest to boost their dubious combat ability. They're also usefull in sieges where they boost the resolve of the men on the walls who usually suck anyway. Overall I would consider this unit a novelty in big league Roman armies but more useful in low tech forces. Still on the bright side they look very cool.

Comitatanes/plumbatarii
As both these units are very simular we shall discuss them as one. The meat of the roman army the 'legionare' infantry while not on par with their preddessors they are still formidable. very simular to the pre-marian pricipes in style and combat capabilities. They can't form tetsuo but can throw javelins prior to attack and can be counted on to fight well in most battles. Deploy as your standard infantry as soon as possible they'll can be relied on to win most fights they encounter-especially when theirs loads of them. The plumbatarii are simular to the Comitatanes but slightly better (the game developers should have made the gap larger or made them more differant) and should be deployed in your best army instead of the Comitatanes. However in for most of your armies I would recomend Comitatanes since their a tier lower on the military tier and are thus easier to replenish when on campaigh.

Comitatanes 1st cohort
Banner boys for the army. Slightly better than regular Comitatanes and their banner boosts moral, I try to have one in every army as a tough core to the army. I tend to place it behind the main line ready to engage the enemy should any units rout The high requirements mean they'll be hard to replenish when out in the field

Auxilia palitia
The elite unit for the West roman army. Probably the best spear unit in the game with combat capabilities far out classing their usually low level colleages. Despite this they should be treated in a simular manner to all spearmen and deployed and used as usual: to engage cavalry and protect flaks and in street city fighting. They just do it better than everyone else! Can form shield wall boosting their defence.

Bucellarii
an odd unit, armed with crossbows you'd be forgiven for treating them like their medieval pals but they seem to function differantly, They can hold their own in close combat resonably well and can fire short range but fairly effective bolts. This makes them ideal for sieges where they funcition well as shooters and wall fighters. Their tactical flexibility seems their greatest advantage allowing them to be used as a light infantry unit or a tactical infantry unit. However they're quite high up on the ladder so my usage of them was limited by the need to raise other more key units but if you have the time and money they seem a sound investmant. Very fragile to cavalry attacks.
Praeventores
Another odd unit, a sneaky unit for want of a better word. I found them very good at flank attacks were their ability to hide pays off. Best deployed in small skirmishes and ambushes were their meaty attack rate shines. However the time they take to produce and the limited usefulness of the unit mean they were a rare sight due to the the large scale battles I was forced to continously fight: where their use is limited. best used in small skirmishes or as ambushers.

Samatian cavalry
medium/Heavy cavalry and in all likelyhood the only cavalry you'll need. Good solid unit which can be relied on as shock troops and flank attacks. I found them useful in engaging enemy cavalry units were they u

CXA
03-27-2006, 23:13
I am playing VH/VH with the West and will use alot of what you have mentioned here.

I beat the whole map on M/M with the West, but found that was kindergarten compared to VH. I didn't even change most of the cities religion and still managed to take over the whole map. That is impossible on VH. I am on my second try and feel that I may have to start over even though I am into the middle game.

I was trying to make the empire Christian but I think I will go with Paganism the third time around.

On Med. I kept my whole army and it worked out. On VH I think that in order to get cash I will have to get rid of the expensive Foederati Cavalry and then build back up. I will make my Christian members my generals and they will have to be my cavalry in the beginning.

Very good read!! I will employ somem of your other strats as well!!

CXA
04-20-2006, 22:48
Well, on my third try I won the campaign in the year 409. Using strats from this forum helped alot. I never stop there as I like to take over the whole map.

After that I don't know what to try as I hear West Rome is probably the hardest on VH/VH.

Patriarch of Constantinople
05-12-2006, 04:07
The first thing i would do would lower squalor in your home field. then immediatley secure your european border make sure the cities on your frontier are prepared for invasions. honestly if you do that then you should work on economy and territory

Avicenna
05-12-2006, 17:23
Assassin squads are useful as well, looking at the WRE Re-unification PBeM: apart from a single character killed in a battle, the whole Slavic faction was wiped out by assassinations and just disappeared.

Patriarch of Constantinople
05-13-2006, 05:56
If you do not defeat the germanic tribes then they will be a problem later. what i did was make some armies ans attack celts, saxons etc. this secured my rule in europe and got me better prepared for the invading hordes

Avicenna
05-14-2006, 19:44
They're not major and impossibly difficult problems though, as even with the house rules preventing their destruction in the PBeM I mentioned in my previous post, they're succeeding and have destroyed a few hordes, and almost taken the whole Eastern Empire as well as retaining the Western half. The Germanic tribes are actually quite useful, as if you can just keep a ceasefire, they will act as a buffer zone to weaken the oncoming hordes, while themselves being weakened. The Celts (who aren't Germanic!) aren't in the hordes' way though, but they aren't a major problem so destroying them is optional. Their sieges of Eburacum should be futile, with a stone wall there.

Patriarch of Constantinople
05-16-2006, 00:09
Well for me the alemanii, celts, franks etc kept attacking my cities and armies

Avicenna
05-16-2006, 07:10
Try and make them agree to a ceasefire every time. Or, if you wish, put a full stack next to them, to make them retreat. They're useful buffer zones against the hordes that are going to attack you. The Celts should be destroyed though, or at least driven off Britain.

Avicenna
05-28-2006, 23:13
ARGH.

I keep on trying this faction, and I keep failing. Just on H/M, destroyed the Vandal horde with Nero's stack while losing only four units. And then, I get a nice little surprise. The massive Hunnic horde is at my doorstep, and they just took the Gothic settlement of Vicus Gothi. That's right, I'll have to destroy at least EIGHT stacks to get rid of the Huns and Goths. It'll probably be more, since they're all stuck together. I'll also have to choose between letting the Huns in and destroying the Goths or destroying the Huns first and trying to build an army in Italy to combat the Goths. I've got no night fighters in Italy though, which could be a problem. Gratianus is a governor and is a major morale sapper of his army, and Spurius converted to the Rebels. That means no chance of doing much conversion now, two hordes, and only two stacks for me to command. I really can't believe that I'm always this unfortunate, getting the hordes all at once all the time.

Patriarch of Constantinople
05-31-2006, 03:59
Strange for me the Huns always go to greece. Only when i push them out do they take the gothic settlement

Avicenna
05-31-2006, 13:03
Well it seems I've finally got a WRE campaign up and going. Admittedly it's only at H/M, so it's less of a challenge than the others described. However, I'm proud to say that I have only lost 2 settlements so far. Carnuntum, which rebelled, and then reverted back after a while, fully Christianised. I also lost Samarobriva (unsure about the name), when I overlooked a Saxon army which bypassed my forts by naval means. It was quickly snatched back, though.

Right now, I have destroyed the Alemanni, and Vicus Alemanni is inhabited by a bunch of normal rebels. The Franks are down to a few units, but strangely the large Lombard stack which has stood next to it for a few years hasn't made a move. The Berbers were too annoying, so I chose to destroy them. I'm still at war with the Celts, but no battles have been fought yet. I have destroyed three hordes: Marcus the Gambler destroyed the Huns single handedly, Nero Flavius destroyed the Vandals, and they both contributed to the destruction of the Goths, who sadly took the life and army of Nero Flavius.

I'm at war with the Eastern Empire , and I've taken the settlements of Athens, Thessalonica, Constantinople, Kydonia and am currently besieging Cyrene. I'm reluctant to move to Asia Minor though, and I'm probably going to go on the defensive and establish a few border legions in Europe. The many fleets of the Byzantines are also helping me make this decision.

Finally, religion. Even though Spurius Flavius and his 50% bonus was lost in a rebellion, he's now a nice rebel happily standing in Carnuntum, and is what keeps the place Christian. I have a 'Christian Conversion Army', the CCA, composed of around five Christians who include an executioner and a great manager. They've so far converted Ravenna, Mediolanium and are working on Augusta Vindeloricum (once again unsure. it's the province above Mediolanium).

After a long period of infertility, under the reign of Marcus the Gambler I'm pleased to announce a huge baby boom and around three or four quick adoptions into the family, all being Christians. :2thumbsup:

Then again, it's just H/M :embarassed:

Avicenna
05-31-2006, 15:46
Since I can't edit right now, I think I'll post my officially completed but unofficially (my own targets) uncompleted WRE campaign:
Marcus "the Gambler" Flavius Hunnicus Gothicus, Roman hero who crushed the Hunnic horde in half a year and proceeded to destroy the Goths as well. Augustus at this time:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/illusionario/Marcus.png

The Empire at the time of the official victory:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/illusionario/WRE.png

Lorenzo_H
05-31-2006, 17:33
Wow. You are doing quite well. I enjoy seeing the screenies. Keep them up.

Avicenna
06-01-2006, 08:24
Lost a Christian 'Man of the Hour' at sea :sad:

But the worst thing about this campaign is the constant problems. Sure it's challenging, but it just gets so frustrating.

1) Financial and internal problems as soon as you start. It's over, then you think you'll cruise the rest of the campaign with such a large empire. Wrong.
2)The Vandals arrive, and require destroying. Then, when they're finished, the Huns and Goths arrive. The huns are good boys, attacking my army constantly and essentially condemning themselves to death in half a turn. The Goths, however, maraud around your territories, converting some back to paganism. They run around and are smarter, and take a while to destroy. All while this happens, the Eastern Empire attacks you and makes so of your men either dead or trapped in a city, away from the hordes. These two hordes are dead as well, and you rejoice, as the Sarmatians and Franks seem settled. Wrong. The Lombard and Burgindii go beserk in the barbarian lands, knocking out both the Franks and Sarmatians, all the while having a peace. The Sarmatian horse archer hordes are mobile and quite annoying, and run all around the place. When you seem to have them dead with one member remaining, they'll just pop out two random family members. Kill them and leave one, another two pop out. This is the first time I've actually had to destroy the horde and not their leaders. The Franks have now arrived too, with quite a lot of densely packed stacks, and a whole load of pagans. Grr. Luckily, only one full stack and a half stack actually have family members. The heir is stranded on his own as of now, somehow being all the way down at Serbia.
3) Once I manage to destroy them, I'm very sure that the Lombards and Burgundians will commence a war. One will be destroyed, and horde yet again.
4) In the middle of all this, you've got to take territories from the Eastern Empire as well. When you've taken the Eastern Empire, the Roxolani will most likely horde against you or be a constant annoyance.
5) One final note: the Slav horde will eventually attack as well. Fun fun fun.

That's why I destroy the helpless factions as well, namely the Saxons, Alemanni and Berbers. Anyone who attacks. The WRE might seem fun at first, but the constant pressure to destroy is quite taxing.

Biggus Diccus
09-29-2006, 23:35
I don't think anyone has mentioned to micromanage governors and swapping retinues the first few turns as this can make a difference of thousands of dinari. I seem to remember that I only left 4-5 governors actually in cities because most of them were so totally crappy, with like -50% to trade and taxes. I focused on Rome and Carthage and after a few turns those cities made huge piles of cash from trade and taxes. Building ports is the key to making money early on. And tax those AQUAFINA till they go blue, even a little in the red. A little rioting is just business as usual :2thumbsup:

One vital thing to do the first turn is to move the governor of Corsica to Rome and give him good retinues for trade bonuses/order & law/influence. In combination with the port upgrades in Rome this will make a big difference.

It is actually worth to have a crappy family member travel around swapping retinues and collecting the bad ones. That's why I always keep 2-3 ships to transport troops and family members.

Roman_Man#3
10-14-2006, 17:45
following an earlier suggestion, my empire is now quite stable.

here is a pic of something i spied. its recipe for disaster.

https://img174.imageshack.us/img174/4662/0052wx3.th.jpg (https://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0052wx3.jpg)

here is the campaign map, any ideas wheree to expand to next?


https://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7236/untitledtruecolor02fh2.th.jpg (https://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledtruecolor02fh2.jpg)

Phoenix
10-14-2006, 18:18
In my game, one of the first things I did was take Vicus Alemanni and destroy the Celts and Berbers, but if you're at war with the Eastern Romans then Greece and Constantinople are the most profitable targets so it would depend on whether you're expanding to cut down on the number of fronts to deal with or if you're after the cities that make alot of money.

Bill Westwater
10-17-2006, 16:19
Can anybody answer this question for me. If the WRE is such a disaster zone (and the one time i played it certainly seemed to be) why is it that the AI always seems to be able to survive as WRE fairly easily? At present i am playing as ERE, its about 385 and WRE still has 23 or 24 provinces, despite being at war with several hordes.

econ21
10-17-2006, 17:02
Yes, the WRE is strong in AI hands. Partly, it's because it starts with significant military forces and the AI often does not pressure it much. The WRE actually has quite a lot of economic potential and so I suspect the AI claws its way out of deficit over time (especially on higher difficulty when it gets a cash bonus). Rebellion and disloyalty is an irritant but not really life threatening.

I suspect the WRE is not a disaster zone; it's just very messy - deficits, rebellions, threatened borders etc - and humans are put off by that. If you ride out the first few turns, it's not really hard at all.

Try the WRE in IBFD for a real disaster zone. It starts with a Goth horde in Italy beseiging Rome and the Vandal horde carving up Spain. :scared:

Robespierre
10-30-2006, 21:02
yeah, I

Robespierre
10-30-2006, 22:42
pardon me. the caesar is stuck between a rock and a hard plaice. low hygiene and religious dissent make for disorder. taxes are high to pay for the army and the emperors sprawling extended clan of grandchildren.sugardaddy of the world! so far the reconquest is doing okay. disbandment and trade seem to be the key. the game has a lovely feel of the coup d'etat about it, it is truly Edward Gibbonesque. it is easy enough to hold on to Italy , the province and Africa.looting in Gaul next. but the Iberian ports, would it have been worth trying not to lose them at the start? i think the upkeep would put too great a brake on rebuilding the empires' core zone.
Historically, the empire devoped a continental identity. Romania. however the Latin people still had a more pond-centred consciousness. this dichotomy is reflected in the organisation of frontier defence. the latifundia people want secure sealed borders. to ward the tribes from southern ports nees a more flexible approach.those fertile farmlands of Gaul and Dacia can only be developed if WRE can confront and heal its divisions, get turning a profit.

joyodongo
11-04-2006, 11:46
I've been using the PAGANE option sending the emperor on a suicide mission and setting a pagan heir. I only lost 5 provinces but retook them after more or less time. I was at the pointo finishing the capaign but I made a mistake: took the last city from the franks and goths in the way to Cartaghe and they became a very powerful horde and they began taking my cities...
How do you handle with this? Do you find useful to leave them with a single city and preventing them to become very strong? It's the same with the vandals in Gaul.
Other question: If you destroy them before resettling, do they dissapear forever?

Robespierre
11-04-2006, 13:52
on the only occasion i sent Valentinian on that suicide mission of which you speak, he achieved my objective only after slaying the Allemani 7-star general. :smash: a bonus prize. as for hordes, i think it is wisest not to provoke them, scout out the map before you hit a hordable faction. do not let Hubris get the better of you, it will be your downfall.. let sleeping hordes of germanic warriors lie.

"a religion devoid of moral precept, theological principle, and eccliefaftical difcipline"- Gibbon on Paganism.

Phoenix
11-04-2006, 22:04
The Western Roman Empire was actually one of the easier campaigns I played. In the beginning I only disbanded the navy and the Foederati Cavalry that weren't attached to field armies so I had enough of an army to take out the Alemanni, Celts, and Berbers in the first 10 turns as well as recapture Avaricum and Salamantica which were the only cities that rebelled from me. After that I was making enough money to support several field armies so I eventually took Vicus Franki and wiped out the Saxons as well after I got rid of the Hordes attacking me. Since the Sassanids took most of the Eastern Roman Empire's territory, I had an easy time getting the other provinces needed to win though I did have to fight a couple ERE and Sassanid armies.

Religion-wise, I had my provinces keep the religion they started with. For pagan cities, I used Mithras for troop-producing cities and Sol Invictus for the rest. I really liked the Sol Invictus temples since they cut down on corruption alot and give governors a +4 law bonus trait. Between the governor's +20% law bonus, Sol Invictus' +20%, Ludus Magna's +15%, and Epic Stone Wall's +10% you can eliminate corruption in alot of cities which saved me alot of money.

Robespierre
11-05-2006, 13:35
it is a good idea to hold those cities that make money on turn 3, so on my most recent attempt i refrained from handing over pagan temples to the receivers. this has helped but the problem case is of course Salonika which i think i lost due to sending Spurius down to preach there.
hey those Sol Invictus pros are impressive, but all the best generals on turn 1 are xian., and it is very tempting to secure the loyalty of a barbarian killer like Nero by making him heir. will going pagan itself bring about a loyalty deficit amongst xian family members,do you think?

Phoenix
11-05-2006, 22:04
None of the Christian generals rebelled in my game and I didn't notice any loyalty penalties. I think winning battles and stripping titles are the only causes for declining loyalty with generals.

Robespierre
11-07-2006, 15:30
thanks. it seems a bit of an arms race to me. the roman state has to build up the cities and cannon-up simultaneouly to be strong enough to resist the hordes. you've got what everyone else wants. have to make sure they don't get it. the feel of comitatenses is really gritty, its a pity they can't do the tortilla formation anymore though. next experiment is with first cohorts: i am assuming that the "legionary name" ability works just like a general's rally horn, on all units within a radius. this and the shieldwalling palatine troops add great character to the WRE forces.

Phoenix
11-07-2006, 21:40
First Cohorts are expensive in upkeep so I only used a couple per stack, my main infantry was Plumbatarii. Plumbatarii have the same upkeep as Comitatenses but have a better missile attack and more ammo.

Btw, don't forget about archer support. I used 8 archers per anti-horde stack after one of my regular stacks got mauled.

Robespierre
11-08-2006, 21:17
Presently, with an 8-star nightfighter general and plenty of fresh units, dealing with the already depleted vandals should be akin to riot control. archers i do not make much use of, but with the plumbatarii having so much ammo i see your point.this is especially true with the excellent armour, stamp-marked "ROMAE FACTA". (on that suject i do miss the latin orders fron MTW.) however i think the way of dealing with horse-archers for now is to :whip: chase:whip: them headlong with sarmatian cuirassiers.
I have been developing the concept of culivating the romano-british as an allied power and buffer state, handing over to them conquered provinces around the north sea too far away to control; perhaps more money is to be made by having a good trade partner than by garrisoning distant embezzlers. soon to find out how well this may work. however now China Mievilles "Iron Council" beckons. night night, i'm off to Rudewood.

jhhowell
11-10-2006, 22:20
Does the ERE typically attack early in the game (turn 9, in my game)? That took me by surprise, since I know from playing the ERE that such an attack is the second most suicidally insane thing they could possibly do. Marching north to pick fights with the Goths, Sarmatians, Huns, and Vandals is the only worse course of action I can think of. Looks like the hordes will get past the bridges this game - thanks ERE! :wall:

Granted, this is not a terrible thing, I saw in my ERE game that the Romans can easily weather the horde storm given sensible competent leadership. The historical problem was that "sensible, competent" bit... This game will be interesting!

Could the ERE attack be a difficulty setting effect? I'm at either H or VH for campaign difficulty, maybe that makes AI factions go after the player more aggressively. Though the Franks and Saxons have been quite well behaved so far.

Robespierre
11-12-2006, 19:42
afraid i can't answer that since i confess to only playing WRE on medium difficulty so far:shame: Except for the fist few turns, and that was plenty enough for me, until the structure of things is clearer . but in both my most recent games the vandal horde showed up in illyrica, 374. perhaps not that historical, but it was the same year that the goths in fact crossed the danube leading to the romans' crushing and decisive defeat at Adrianople, where the eastern empire Valens was slain on the field.

Phoenix
11-12-2006, 23:50
So far I've played WRE on just M/M difficulty...once the ERE attacked early and the other time they didn't so I guess it's somewhat random. On my Frankish H/M campaign I've been at peace with all the barbarian tribes I've allied with for 80+ turns but the Berbers who were neutral wasted no time attacking Arles once I conquered Gaul so I imagine the the aggressiveness of neutrals are increased in Hard but not those of allies.

jhhowell
11-14-2006, 02:47
One curious side-effect of the early ERE attack is the prospect for a very quick win. Unless the Vandals or Huns can move forcefully enough to keep me from pushing on to Constantinople, I'll win on turn 25 or so (might require a quick raid to Campus Quadi or some such for Province #34...). Not exactly what I had in mind - I would like to use plumbatarii, auxilia palatinae, and first cohorts someday. OTOH, this shows that a quick win is possible for the WRE, which I certainly did not expect.

I may have to try again with a house rule to never use generals for battles against other factions. Valentinian's single-handed demolition of the ERE's western armies was just ridiculous. A total loser starting in Spain is eliminating the Berbers almost single-handedly, too.

Tacticus, have you tried your Romano-British strategy yet? That sounds interesting, and the loss of those three provinces would force the WRE to get into Egypt and/or Asia Minor (or Germany, I suppose) for the win...

Robespierre
11-14-2006, 17:14
no,not yet. will kee you posted. i don't know how much the AI will allow this. anyway it does mean using sea-power to help the emergent power survive, but so many players like to disband their navies. it is also not so far from the strategies historically used by emperors, that kept them on their thrones for a good century after Romes military power had evaporated.

another thing i thought interesting is the direct link between Roman professional military discipline, and the re-emergence of national standing armies and drill in the early 17th century in europe. the new armies of prince Maurice or Gustav Adolphus were based on translations of classical military texts! they mixed pike and musket at the battalion level in independant formations.:idea2: so maybe i should try using some archers with my spearline....calls for a bit of group formation madness.

jhhowell
12-05-2006, 23:24
Judging from my new WRE game, abandoning Britain is not a very good strategy. I just pulled out entirely on turn 2, so the island has been WRER since then (I wasn't sure if the R-B would spawn - apparently London and York have to be entirely non-Roman for them to show up). Much like the Celts, the WRER turn out to be implacable enemies of the WRE, so I can't use them as a trading partner for more than a few turns at a time. The Celts, oddly, don't seem to have a problem with the WRER owning Britain. Time to send Duke Placus back over to take charge again... ~:(

The R-B strategy would seem to require one to deliberately lose York and London to the Celts. How annoying! I'm not even sure the Celts are competent enough to make it practical - I'd expect them to pick their noses around York for a while, if they even got that far. It's also entirely likely that the R-B also would be unwilling to remain peaceful, since their victory conditions require a piece of Gaul. My verdict is that it's a nice idea, but just doesn't work.

In other news, I'm now 2/2 at being attacked by the ERE. No DoW yet, but the purple armies marching up to Aquincum are not exactly subtle. Phoenix, do you recall whether you did anything unusual in the game where they didn't attack you?

Moah
01-18-2007, 16:41
I went Pagan everywhere except Italy. Once the emperor dies and the pagan heir took over it was easier when conquering new territories. I was a true son of Julian.

First turns are crucial - what to do is outlined elsewhere.

The one thing I'd recommend (discovered this by accident, but then exploited it to the full) is instead of working hard at outlying cities choose the two hardest to quell, sell off everything and evacuate them. They turn rebel. Do this in Ireland and North East Africa.

Now the rebels are here - but have 2 hovel-like towns at opposite ends of the map. They make one their capital. The other revolts and returns to the bosom of Rome! You suddenly inherit 4 peasant units and A GENERAL! I laughed out loud when that happened.

Move them out the city towards where you need them. City revolts back to rebels. Fine, was a waste of money anyway. Wait a few turns and it happens again! I gained 16 peasants and 4 generals (3 lots in ireland, 1 in africa) from insanely impossible rebel holdings. Once they had a rebellion in central europe they did better but even so. Those rebels boosted my army so much they were actually my best allies!

Unfortunately I couldn't afford to do that with Spain, cost me no end of grief bringing them into order. I ended up with a very drunken and debauched emperor living in southern spain and trundling off from 1 city to another to keep the peace.

Mithras
01-30-2007, 01:28
My revised unit guide:

Units

Peasants
As in all total war games: pathetic cannon fodder. Their uselessness is magnified in this game since they can't be relied on to control populations anymore. The only real use I could find for them is as sappers and arrow shields. Simply put if any other unit is available it does not matter what you want just use anyone else instead.

Limitanei:
Having replayed a number of times as the WE empire I have to reconsider my position on the Limes. They are still cannon fodder but they are competant cannon fodder. Their ability to thrown a dart prior to combat combined with their Roman dicipline gives them a nasty little edge. Becouse of this I have to consider them passible workhorse troops. They are useful for attacking Rebel armies and holding cities. Don't deploy them in your main army but they can be expected to put up a competant defence-especially when upgraided via war shrines and smiths


Archers:
Bog-standard archers: you know what to expect here. Unfortuantly they're the only archer unit you get so they'll be the ones you use. good at defending cities and supporting fire. They're useful in fighting Nomad armies with their large numbers of horse archers and whiddling down the enemies numbers prior to attack or their attack. Since their the only archer unit you have their the ones your stuck with. On the bright side their numbers are easily refreshed due to their low tech level so their field time is far superior to a number of units they'll be fighting along side. In addition you can be used to shoot religious units-those god botherers are in such small numbers that a couple of volleys will shred them

Foederati
As much as I hate filthy barbarians, The Foedereti are the first good unit you get. Able to fight quite well They'll be used extensilvly in early game where you'll need them to make up the numbers of your commitares with these guys. when your first able to deploy armies these will form up the flanks with the Comitatanes as the centre. Use them as standard spearmen: to engage cavalry, hold positions or defend walls and you can't go far wrong. I would recomend replacing them with auxilerie palicia in mid game (less barbarians more romans!) since their superior in everyway. Very usefull as local defence militias against bandits, rebels and low level barbarian armies- not so good against hordes or proffessional armies.

Foederati Cavalry
You'll have loads of these at the start but you should disband them imediatly becouse they cost too much money and are frankly rubbish. They're useful in the bog standard sort of way for standard light cavalry roles: souting, flank attack, killing light infantry and running down the enemy when they rout however they cost to much, and you need that money elsewhere. By the time you're able to afford them Samatian cavalry are more largely available. which are far better in every respect (plus they look cooler). Simply put don't bother.

Priests
An interesting unit. Let me ask you question why would druids not be as useful to a roman army than they were to the Gauls? answer: Becouse romans have high moral and good fighting capabilites so don't need a bunch of chanting weirdos to hold them together. The same applies here: the higher teer roman units don't need a priest, especially if they're raised in a Mithras settlement. Simply put for Romans you're better off having another unit of comitatanes in the field or more acuratly, raising two units of comitatanes in the time it takes to raise one unit of priests. That said, for low tech or city guard armies the priest comes into his own with half hearted pansy squad you'll probably be forced to use in the initial stages of the campaighn (all troop types listed above this unit) they need the priest to boost their dubious combat ability. They're also usefull in sieges where they boost the resolve of the men on the walls who are often in a lot of trouble. Overall I would consider this unit a novelty in big league Roman armies but more useful in low tech forces or barbarian mobs. Still on the bright side they look very cool.

Comitatanes/plumbatarii
As both these units are very simular we shall discuss them as one. The meat of the roman army the 'legionare' infantry while not on par with their preddessors they are still formidable. very simular to the pre-marian pricipes in style and combat capabilities. They can't form tetsuo but can throw javelins prior to attack and can be counted on to fight well in most battles. Deploy as your standard infantry as soon as possible they'll can be relied on to win most fights they encounter-especially when theirs loads of them. The plumbatarii are simular to the Comitatanes but slightly better (the game developers should have made the gap larger or made them more differant) and should be deployed in your best army instead of the Comitatanes. However in for most of your armies I would recomend Comitatanes since their a tier lower on the military tier and are thus easier to replenish when on campaigh.

Comitatanes 1st cohort
Banner boys for the army. Slightly better than regular Comitatanes and their banner boosts moral, I try to have one in every army as a tough core to the army. I tend to place it behind the main line ready to engage the enemy should any units rout The high requirements mean they'll be hard to replenish when out in the field

Auxilia palitia
The elite unit for the West roman army. Probably the best spear unit in the game with combat capabilities far out classing their usually low level colleages. Despite this they should be treated in a simular manner to all spearmen and deployed and used as usual: to engage cavalry and protect flaks and in street city fighting. They just do it better than everyone else! Can form shield wall boosting their defence.

Bucellarii
an odd unit, armed with crossbows you'd be forgiven for treating them like their medieval pals but they seem to function differantly, They can hold their own in close combat resonably well and can fire short range but fairly effective bolts. This makes them ideal for sieges where they function well as shooters and wall fighters. Their tactical flexibility seems their greatest advantage allowing them to be used as a light infantry unit or a tactical infantry unit. However they're quite high up on the ladder so my usage of them was limited by the need to raise other more key units but if you have the time and money they seem a sound investmant. Very fragile against cavalry attacks.

Praeventores
Another odd unit, a sneaky unit for want of a better word. I found them very good at flank attacks were their ability to hide pays off. Best deployed in small skirmishes and ambushes were their meaty attack rate shines. However the time they take to produce and the limited usefulness of the unit mean they were a rare sight due to the the large scale battles I was forced to continously fight: where their use is limited. best used in small skirmishes or as ambushers.

Samatian cavalry
medium/Heavy cavalry and in all likelyhood the only cavalry you'll need. Good solid unit which can be relied on as shock troops and flank attacks. If you're skilled you can herd horse archers into them-which they will eviscerate. I also used them for hunting down hoard generals with some sucess. I usually had them fight along side the general as a 'hammer' to the infantry's 'anvil' where I slammed into enemy forces flanks for devasating effect.

Equites Sagittarii
Horse archers of all things to see in a Roman army. Although I've made minimale usage of them they do appear to be skilled at what they do despite lack of circle formation they where capable of holding up and harrasing enemy horse archers very effectivly. However they do not mesh well with the rest of the Roman army so Their usage was minimal. An idea may be an pure cavalry army with them and Samatian cavalry for rapid responce throughtout your vast Empire This role could suit them well if you can find the money.

Scholae Palatinae
The other heavy cavalry unit. Rarer and less rough and ready then the Samatians they are however diciplined and heavily armoured. I mostly used them in my Italian elite army where they performed well when we pushed into the Eastern Roman territory but usually you're better of using the Samatians for their lower tech requirements and faster porduction rate.

Imperial German Bodyguard
General unit. Despite their origins as Barbarian filth they fight very well. The generals on BA are fairly hard to kill. The Imperial German Bodyguard being one of the best. They will usually defeat any Cavalry unit on equal footing with the acception of eastern catatanks. Use him to massacre small low tech armies and as a tide turner in more crucial battles.

Carriage Ballistae
Very weird unit. Effective of the few occasions I've used them but very vulrable to missle fire. They can't fire on city walls so I see limited practical usage for them except as a novilty.

More to come.

Roman_Man#3
01-30-2007, 01:40
That is a very detailed overview of the WRE army. How about the ERE or the franks ot saxons next?

jhhowell
01-31-2007, 02:30
Some comments and elaborations on the unit guide.

Limitanei are quite decent for such a low level unit. An important role I use them for that wasn't mentioned is as river guards during the numerous bridge battles. They'll have plenty of time to fire off all their pila at the swimming Herdsmen or Horde horse archers, then they're a spear unit holding high ground against cavalry with weak melee ability, Winded or worse from their swim. A single limitanei on each flank has always been plenty to defeat the amphibious portion of a horde bridge assault - very cheap and effective.

A note about archers - they'll start with surprisingly good experience. IIRC archers from Rome (built on turns when money is tight and you can't afford Sagittarii, artillery, or whatever) come out with two silver chevrons once you have the Mithras temple, plus the silver equipment. That's a fine little unit! ~:) So the basic stats you see in provincial towns with just a minimal archery range are a bit misleading, look to Rome to see what your archers can really do.

Slight disagreement about the Foederati; I find them to be pretty much a toss-up with limitanei. Stats are similar since the limitanei have +1 experience over the foederati, and the pila are generally quite handy. Not to mention the cheaper upkeep on the limitanei. ERE Legio Lanciarii are a more worthwhile step up from the limitanei, IMHO.

A note about auxilia palatina - they own the bridges (just as comitatenses and variants own city walls).

Bucellarii - relatively short range, and flat trajectory like the RTW slinger units. As such, I've found them difficult to use effectively. They have to be in front or on flanks to clear a line of fire, and since cavalry is more common and effective in BI than RTW that's a very dangerous place for a light infantry/missile unit to be. They're useful enough to not disband, and sometimes it's worth picking up mercenaries, but I can't imagine building these instead of archers. City garrison is a good call for these guys.

The Sagittarii are indeed quite good, I use them a fair bit. Similar to ERE hippo-toxatai, with a bit more emphasis on melee than missile strength. Again, Rome's foundry and Mithras temple (once you build it) make these guys really shine. The one drawback is that these guys can swim, so they're useless for the pursuit phase of bridge battles (swimmers will always swim rather than use the bridge, for some reason); you need the general and the Sarmatians for that. I'd build even more, but typically Rome is the only place that can build them for many many years, and other units need a fair bit of that production time. Plus personally I read the flavor text about how they didn't work in NW Europe (cold wet winters ruining the bows) and only let myself employ them in the Danube/ERE border sector.

Carriage ballistae - these guys are no "limited practical usage ... novelty"!! With the possible exception of generals bodyguards, there is no more ridiculously overpowered uber-unit in the game! And these guys are much more entertaining to use than the generals. :beam: In any open field battle not involving a horde, you will win if you have one of these. They're fine against hordes, too, you just have to be very careful that the horse archers don't stray too close - bridge battles work well, as always. They are pretty useless in city fights, but the Roman factions already dominate those so that's not a big deal.

Meghas Alexandros - for ERE, take the above. Hippo-toxatai are marginally better than Sagittarii (mostly because the h-t can't swim); legio lanciarii are better than the foederati infantry, and are the best spearmen the ERE ever get; cataphracts and clibanarii are both very good but are very similar, personally I didn't see one as being noticeably more effective than the other; you don't get Sarmatians, so ERE has no effective melee cavalry until the cat/clib at the top level stable building - this is annoying at times. Oh yes, eastern archers rock, more or less making up for the melee cavalry problem. So you end up with more missile-heavy armies without the shock and pursuit punch you might be used to from WRE armies. In practice, the ERE is probably a tiny bit better off because the missile armies are better suited to the defensive battles the Romans have to fight (bridges, cities). The comitatenses mean they can still win offensive city assaults without hardly trying, the only potential difficulty is an open field fight against hordes - they'll probably win, but it won't be as crushing as a WRE win would be. Battles between the ERE and WRE are symmetrical enough that it comes down to tactical skill, which means the player always beats the AI regardless of who is on which side.

Mithras
02-03-2007, 13:35
Limitanei are quite decent for such a low level unit. An important role I use them for that wasn't mentioned is as river guards during the numerous bridge battles. They'll have plenty of time to fire off all their pila at the swimming Herdsmen or Horde horse archers, then they're a spear unit holding high ground against cavalry with weak melee ability, Winded or worse from their swim. A single limitanei on each flank has always been plenty to defeat the amphibious portion of a horde bridge assault - very cheap and effective.

Yeah as I said they are deceptivly usefull however I overall find the Foederati
more usefull in the 'main' armies especially as combat experiance builds up. I'd recomend using them as defensive troops rather than staple guys.



A note about archers - they'll start with surprisingly good experience. IIRC archers from Rome (built on turns when money is tight and you can't afford Sagittarii, artillery, or whatever) come out with two silver chevrons once you have the Mithras temple, plus the silver equipment. That's a fine little unit! ~:) So the basic stats you see in provincial towns with just a minimal archery range are a bit misleading, look to Rome to see what your archers can really do.

I don't think this is a fair assesment of them-considering that other factions archers have access to simular perks-meaning that they'll be an heavily upgraded mediocre unit in contrast to a heavily upgraded Good unit.

I'll be discussing religious shrines in part two


ERE Legio Lanciarii are a more worthwhile step up from the limitanei, IMHO.

Not strightly speaking relavent for a Western army


A note about auxilia palatina - they own the bridges (just as comitatenses and variants own city walls).

I'll expand on this they're useful in any close quarters fighting where numbers are not an issue.



but typically Rome is the only place that can build them for many many years, and other units need a fair bit of that production time. Plus personally I read the flavor text about how they didn't work in NW Europe (cold wet winters ruining the bows) and only let myself employ them in the Danube/ERE border sector.

That's essentially the problem. They're not practical for long term campaighns in the west-you have more important units to produce-and siege battles to fight. Their just not that useful compared to other units which you need more.


Carriage ballistae - these guys are no "limited practical usage ... novelty"!! With the possible exception of generals bodyguards, there is no more ridiculously overpowered uber-unit in the game! And these guys are much more entertaining to use than the generals. :beam: In any open field battle not involving a horde, you will win if you have one of these. They're fine against hordes, too, you just have to be very careful that the horse archers don't stray too close - bridge battles work well, as always. They are pretty useless in city fights, but the Roman factions already dominate those so that's not a big deal.

They get shot to pieces against nomad armies and expode on contact with any soldiers their shooting abilities are just brutal but unless you manage to fight every battle as a bridge one they'll eviserate two to four units before disapearing under a hail of arrows-leaving with a wasted two turns where you could have been producing something cheaper and more long term .


ERE .

This is the western Roman empire write for those Bearded wannabe Roman Greek fops in ERE guide :P


That is a very detailed overview of the WRE army. How about the ERE or the franks ot saxons next?


I've already written a Saxon one if memory serves. I'll be revising that once I'm done here.

jhhowell
02-05-2007, 00:27
[Carriage ballistae] get shot to pieces against nomad armies and expode on contact with any soldiers their shooting abilities are just brutal but unless you manage to fight every battle as a bridge one they'll eviserate two to four units before disapearing under a hail of arrows-leaving with a wasted two turns where you could have been producing something cheaper and more long term.

Not if you're careful they don't. They appear to be just as fast as horse archers, so if you notice the horde archers moving into range, pull back. This does require frequent pausing and micromanagement, so it may not suit all player's styles... Fighting every horde battle at a bridge is trivial to arrange, if one so chooses (I've come to regard it as a bit of an exploit), so those who prefer not to micromanage can still get good use out of carriage ballistae against the hordes. Also, the hordes are just two or three of many foes the WRE has to fight - a carriage ballista unit is priceless for crushing the Franks, ERE, Celts, or Berbers, if the player wishes to do so. The Frankish border is the obvious place, send a carriage ballista unit there and pull many of the local comitatenses back to Rome for refit and redeployment to the Danube. The ERE invasion tends to have very few hippo-toxatai, so a carriage ballista unit will do very well there too.

If your carriage ballistae ever contact enemy soldiers, you're doing something badly wrong.

In terms of production trade-offs, my preference (money permitting) is to have Rome alternate between carriage ballistae and equites sagittarii, with archers on the turns with little available cash. An onager or two to hasten the conquest of ERE cities sounds nice, but I've found they're too slow to make a difference. I use Ravenna for Sarmatians, then auxilia palatina when the higher level barracks is ready. In time, Mediolanum or Tarentum can contribute additional Sarmatian production.

I don't think pointing out the strength of archer units from Rome is irrelevant. Other factions could do that, if they spent the time and money to get their high level archery building and a foundry (and XP temple, if applicable). Rome starts with the first two in place and can convert to Mithras fairly early. That's an advantage which AFAIK is unique to the WRE.

Mithras
02-14-2007, 16:41
Of faith and honour: Loyalty and religion revised


Religion
I've noticed that many player take one look at the monestery and jump on the Jesus bandwagon. Despite the obvious perks of sighning up for the Jehova it isn't as simple cut as it initially looks. Their are perks of both sides and which faction you choose is a lot more complex than a 15% happyness bonus. It's also worth noting that the situation varies from faction to faction on a number of differant ratios rather than trying to access religion as a whole it's better to study it faction by faction. For example I would consider Paganism better for the Celts but Christianity the superior choice the the Franks. In this section we shall be considering the benifits of Paganism vs Christianity for the Western empire.


Paganism
Pro's
paganism has access to two very good temples within the empire-mithras and solar invictus. Now despite my opinion that their isnt enough time and detail put into either of these shrines (they should both easily have 5th teer production and Mithras should have loads of awsome personality traits and unique retinue members) both the pagan temples are very useful and worthy of consideration.

Mithras is not only a warrior shrine but also gives a nice loyalty boost to law and happyness. The experiance bonus means that pagan settlement armies will usually unit for unit be superior to their christian counterparts. The law bonus will weaken corruption within your vast Empire whilst combining with the minor happyness bonus in keeping the Plebs happy. The shrine also comes with a number of Military ancilleries and positive personality Traits. The Tier one the Mithras shrine is by far the best with both a happyness bonus law bonus and experiance bonus. If you're going to go Pagan use these Shrines for Key military productions cities.

Sol invictus is a good solid public control shrine with a very meaty bonus to population loyalty- in fact it's slightly better than the christian ballicia (although the latest patch evens it out more). The Law bonus is very usefull with regards to corruption in the Empire-Helping ease that money crisis you have. The Shrine is also a leadership one encouraging positive personality traits and usefull ancilleries. If you're going to go Pagan use these Shrines for all non-military cities due to their superiour production values.

Theirs also the consideration that the bulk of your cities are pagan meaning that it's easier to consolidate. Due to you initial religious distribution of faiths in the map your mostly pagan barbarian pals easier to pacify when you start marching across the rhine to remind them of the good old days. Finally Gladiatorial games seem to be in favour of the old ways and logicly this means they function most fluidly in a pagan empire (Although this one is questionable).

Cons
No priests: although not as devstating as missing say...paladins, the absence of priests is still something to be noted. ultimatly christianitys happyness bonus is way higher than paganism's meaning that overall christianity makes for a happier population. Plus you don't get theological goodies as pagans ( 'artifacts' found by constantines mum and famous Christians in your retinue) which are very useful for law and happyness. You'll also have to deliberatly kill your emperor and change the faction heir if you want to go Pagan loosing one family member and damaging one (former faction heir trait) weakening your already unsteady empire. You'll also have to deal with a number of Pagan Generals milling around your Empire who's usefullness is limited. the final problem is that of other factions-pretty much every other faction is pagan since the AI lack the intelligence to convert to their factions leaders religion or trash opposing Shrines this means that you'll be constantly exposed to Pagan pressure in the form of Hordes full of heathens causing mass conversions in areas and external border pressure undermining your attempts to convert in the north.

Christianity
Pro
Christianity gives the player access to the monstery ladder. Allowing for a usefull 5-15% bonus to happyness and access to priests which are useful in the low tech cannon fodder you may be forced to field early on. The started emperor is christian, as is his heir which of coarse makes christianisation all the smoother. Christian Bastilla is also the highest teer temple available allowing for the most bonus' to population in general. The christian sturctures have population growth bonus' which allow for rapid climbing on the governor building ladder. You can also gain a huge and often vital cash boost from trashing all those pagan sites to help get your economy back on the road. barbarian factions tend to be pagan meaning they will have a hard time dealing with your christian cities if they capture one. Finally christians get all kinds of cool retinue stuff famous theologians, bishops and bits of the cross all come with fairly nice features such as law bonus' healing abilities and other such virtues. Christians also tends to acculmulate a huge conversition bonus meaning that a Good Christian will spread the faith like Jesus himself.

Cons
Firstly the bulk of your empire is Pagan, the bulk of your cities veiw christianity the same way I veiw jehova's witnesses:avoid at all costs. If you attempt to convert your empire too fast and to carelessly you will suffer a truly brutal uprising resulting in the emerging green rebels becoming a full fledged faction within your own borders: very very bad. If you're going to christianise do it slowly and gently, starting in italy spreading out into Gaul while waiting to the pagan/christian family member ratio to slip in your favour. Unit for unit pagan Mithratic armies are better than christian armies: the priest simply doesnt have the same clout as the experiance bonus (although better still why not combine both?). The population growth bonus while usefull can often be something of liability if you don't have the money to upgrade goverment buildings as it constantly pushes up the poverty bar through population at the highest tier of buildings. Finally, something that George bush is living proof of (just kidding) christianity creates negative charecter traits. Large numbers of my christians (about 1/3rd at one point) join one or another heresy increasing unrest or make those damnned vows of poverty cutting my cash flow Pagans do not suffer from this problems with the same severity- although it should noted their are quite a few 'good' christian traits to help ease this problem.

Conclusions

Overall both christianity and paganism have solid perks and problems. I believe it's ultimatly up to the discretion of the player which one he chooses. One thing I will say that you must choose. trying to balance the empire between christian and pagan requires resoarces beyond your capability although you can maintain some shrines for the opposite religion. You will have to favour one for simply practical purposes. I choose pagan initially becouse I wanted a differant experiance to what I did with the eastern empire.

Side notes

1)A little trick I picked up on was that once a monestery is built it doesnt matter what religion you follow in the region. Meaning in a number of formally christian sites still had the happyness boost when I converted them: also allowing me access to priests from a 100% pagan population which I dubbed priests of Mithras......if anyone in the empire comments on this I'll remind them I'm the emperor and I know where they live. I assume this is simply the pagans taking control of areas when they've reclaimed them from christians. Be careful however since you can accumulate negative pagan traits in family members from hanging around these places (atheism, hates Christianity).

2)If I was going for a smash and trash attack or if a region was about to fall I'd build a shrine opposite the religion of the people making it very hard to hold for whoever set up shop when they took the region.Especially if the conversion is still lower than the overall conversion bonus for other faiths: I remember being darkly amused watching the Allemani tribe have to fight a constant battle to keep their capital.

3)Whichever faith you choose to favour keep 2-3 of your cites of the other faith. This will give you somewhere to drop of family members of that faith and allow you limted access to the perks of that religion (priests or experiance bonus) good areas for christianity are north africa and for Paganism great britain.

4)For love of all that is sacred do not decide who to side with on what religion you follow in life!
a) data streams do not have souls
b)combine the most radical terrorists and weird apocalypse cults of the modern world and that's what the christians of the 4th century looked like: not only really violent and intolerant but also completly insane.
c)Pagans are almost as bad and in some repects, worse.
d)Neither religion resembles their modern counterparts very much.
Choosing which religion to side with should be a pure strategy, terms of challange or at a pinch asthetic preferance. If you're deciding how to play computer games on what god/s think then I'm probably going to avoid you if i see you one the street. Choosing religion on asthetic preferance is fine choosing religion out of spiritual concerns is just plain weird.
5)If you're pagan keep and eye out for any really good shrines in barbarian lands and retrain your armies there: you may even get lucky and pick up some good retinue followers.
6)Trash any Zorostrian temples you get immediatly.
7)try to make sure Generals are of the lesser religion: that way they won't have personality defects from spending time with the wrong temple.
8)I tend to tinker with the temples a little. Usually I'll add a conversion trait to pagan priests (although this guide is based on a regular version) Here's the pagan trait for any would be modders:

Religious_Belief pagan 1


Loyalty/titles
A serious issue in the western empire. Not only do revolts cause disruption but also cause defects in family members and fully functioning enemy factions within your lands squandering vast amounts of precious resoarces to quell them. Firstly keep an eye on loyalty bars, try to make sure that powerfull generals and governors have a title and watch them. A good trick I found was to make the emperor head of at least one army ensuring that at least one army (usually the best overall) would never betray me (latest patch emperors can't defect). I also found keeping a small but potent army led by a captain in spain, italy, britain and other geographical blocks meant that if a family member defected their would be someone to restore roman law in any region. Finally be sure to make sure that Titles and imperial guard are distrubited to useful Generals to keep them in the good books

Calgacus
05-17-2007, 18:21
Excellent posting lads. Does anyone happen to know of an online unit guide for the BI which details unit statistics (attack/defence/HPs etc...)? I understand that their is an official published guide to BI which contains this info, but that it's quite badly flawed and not worth the tin.

If anyone could point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

Phoenix
05-20-2007, 07:48
Just go here (http://totalwar.co.kr/rtwbi/bi_yas.html).

Calgacus
05-21-2007, 17:43
Just go here (http://totalwar.co.kr/rtwbi/bi_yas.html).

Cheers for that, Phoenix. It's just the job.

Gizmo04
06-17-2007, 00:49
Hey everyone, I've read just about all of the advise in this forum about the Western Empire and it is REALLY helpful and I thank you all. I took one look at the Western Empire after just playing it for the first time and man... did I cry... When the religious aspect came up I looked at the surrounding tribal cities that bordered the empire and thought that Paganism was here to stay. It made things easier for me in assimilating barbarian cities becuase the Christian cities keep complaining of "Heathens over the river" and start to revolt. Any other advice on the Religious aspect? Oh and does anyone know if the Testudo formation is in the game... man I loved that move and it was damned handy!!! As you've probably guessed I haven't completed the game with any faction yet lol!

Severous
06-17-2007, 07:25
Hi

I documented a few of my campaigns. Pictures and comments of interest showing either general tactics/strategy or faction specific tips.

WRE does not have a lot of basic detail as it was one of my most recent. But I hope you will find it interesting. I too decided on Paganism as my religion for WRE.

http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=10,5908,30,45

Enjoy.

Gizmo04
06-17-2007, 21:08
Wow your all such nice people, lol. Anyway, I just started today playing, again for like the 50th time, the Western Empire, I decided to scrub my last save and start again. This time I turned to Christianity, I know "What the hell am I thinking?!" but it turns out that following history and turning every town Christian, over a slow given time, had great GREAT benefits for the Empire. I was able to manage each city and now I don't get any riots, this is about 375 AD now. However the Hunnic Hordes came knocking at my Eastern front,I suppose to make up for the good thats happened, the bit of the empire that borders with the Eastern Empire. From earlier posts I took the suggestions of establishing forts at each entry-exit point of the empire, with what little money I could scrap considering I changed to Christianity... MANY RIOTS!!! lol. With the forts established on the Eastern border I fended the hunnic incursion with quite a miracle!! This campaign I entered with little hope but now... I think I'll change history... PAX ROMANA!!!! Man the Romans were cool, especially with the Barbarians in their ranks. Oh erm... is Testudo in it? Sorry to ask again I just loved that formation.

Gizmo04
06-17-2007, 21:17
Oh and I forgot to thank you Severous sorry. Oh and another question, I've noticed in the pictures through that link you added your Unit cards had 160 Limitanei, EACH!!! How?? I can only get 80 in each of my unit cards. Again I appreciate any help!!

Gizmo04
06-17-2007, 21:27
I agree with you Severous, I love playing as Romans too. As soon as the Western Empire popped up in a game I just HAD to play as them and low and behold they are my favourite faction too!

Severous
06-20-2007, 22:56
Hi Gizmo04

Sorry for delay responding. I dont visit here every day.

Re your recent posts:

- Well done of beating the Huns. Are you on the way to winning that campaign ?

- Testudo. No dont remember seeing that in BI. Not often ive used it myself in RTW. In the historical battle against the Perthian horse archers perhaps. I dont play my campaigns long enough to develop troops capable of testudo.

- Thanks for the thanks. You are welcome

- The unit size. You can only change befroe you start a campaign...not part way through a campaign. Go to optioons, advanced video options, and alter the unit scale. Mine was on huge setting...yours is on large.

- Im not advocating Romans as best. I like playing all factions..once. They are unique in BI. Their large empire is going to fall apart. Very different from the normal start small and expand RTW campaigns.

Enjoy your gaming.
Sev

Gizmo04
06-20-2007, 23:31
lol no I didn't think you'd visit this site everyday I assumed you had better things to do first.

Well the Hunnic advance through my western front with the Eastern Empire was delayed by the forts for 3 turns, which gave just enough time to train 3 units of commitantes, sorry misspelled, to advance to the forts to help them out. The odds were heavily stacked against me 1:25 so I really had to think about what I was doing. I had my family general, Oppius, that pagan heathen!!! Anyway, as much as I wanted him dead, I couldn't let him die here or I'd lose for sure because those "Gothic witches" are already scary enough. So I got my rough hardened :furious3: commitantes to equally match positions with the incoming rams and got them to fire at will.
Then, being the smart AI that it is, they fired there hail of missiles which, quite litterally, blocked out the sun... I had all the commitantes still, more or less, ok but the General suffered a great loss becuase it was only him out of his bodyguards left. I never thought I'd say this but thank those Pagan gods... or maybe they wanted him to die another way? Anyway When the "Gothic bitches, oops sorry meant it, witches" got in they , eventually, broke through my commitantes with significant losses on their end and Oppius kinda high tailed it each time they got close to him... can't say I blame him they still had 500 left, most of their missile cavalry.

So the campaign went from a relatively slow gorey start, rebellions and what not, to the high peak of my economic wealth, to the Hunnic hordes running through the balkan region unchecked. Things got worse when I tried to "Check" them by taking soldiers out of nearby forts to stop them... or atleast thin them... but hordes that stayed out along the borders by the forts took them and began rampaging through my Rhine defense and Danube defense (Franks + Vandal incursions across the Rhine and Sarmatian incursions across the Danube) I was royaly screwed!! overall. :oops:
When I seen history kinda re-enact itself in my campaign I was kinda like Constantine looking over the walls of his capital when the "Ottomans" showed up... Bollocks...

Any recommendations for managing the economy and the army at the same time effiently? Because at each fort I had 3 limitanei, as it was all I could spare. Oh and how do you build forts closer to bridges I can only build them to a point where enemies can just sneak by and walk about your lands :help: Sorry to ask alot, when it comes to barbarian invasion... being a veteran of the old days only takes you so far... and other people may think of things that I don't. Again everyone VERY MUCH appreciated.

Arg... I kinda liked testudo... :shame: well... back to the old drawing board to re-think strategy... :wall:

Phoenix
06-21-2007, 11:14
A good way to beat horse archers is with foot archers. After one of my regular armies got mauled by a horde stack I made a new anti-HA army that had 4 cavalry, 8 Plumbatarii, and 8 Archers. I didn't bother with forts or Limitanei much, I just had my anti-HA armies attack any Horde stacks that got too close and garrisoned any threatened cities with half-stacks of Comitatenses/Plumbatarii and Archers. The Franks don't have HA but do have good infantry, especially if they become a Horde, I wouldn't use any infantry short of Plumbatarii against them. A couple Carriage Ballistae will wreak havoc on them as well since they don't have long-ranged archers.

As to building forts...if you build them adjacent to the bridge/ford, enemies can't get through them until after they take it so maybe you missed a spot? Or, if you mean you can't build them where you want to then it's the terrain, forts can't be built in flooded regions or in certain types of terrain.

Gizmo04
06-21-2007, 16:06
:2thumbsup: Thanks phoenix! Yeah I just started the Western Empire again, :furious3: Damn hordes!! But what happens in the course of this game is what makes it so ADDICTIVE and BRILLIANT!! Anyway I just started the West and I've changed state religion to Christianity, I have to admit it does help in the long run with the green happy faces, even when high taxed in some cities, and my Empire has began to flourish past the first 5 turns.

Turn 1. Did the necessary changes to cities to make them christian and improve those ones still loyal as much as possible and shift armies about to appropriate regions/ cities and moved pagan generals towards the borderland areas (Rhine, Danube + Western border with the Eastern Empire). I trained at least 1 more unit of soldiers, limitanei, in each city first to help out in the re-taking of the town
Turn 2. Cities rioted and things were set in motion to respond, as best I could to, doubtful, incursions at some borders oh and I destroyed military buildings in settlements that would enevitably rebel.
Turn 3. I seiged the Rebelled cities with the troops taken just outside the walls of each city. All Western Roman Provinces rebelled :sweatdrop: except the Italian Peninsula :2thumbsup:
Turn 4. Oddly enough each seiged city attacked me straight way? Anyway Each battle I made it a personal goal that I HAD to win, even when the odds were 1:5, 1 representing me lol. I assembled what soldiers I could at each entry point to my Empire to help out the family members, from hindsight they could have been used to help in the seiges. :shame:
Turn 5. After successfuly taking back the settlements I established new trade routes, and rights, to factions just outside my gates and established alliances with the Saxons and the Franks. Again has anyone else had this problem, I couldn't ally with them in any of my previous trys as the Western Empire but now they graciously accept. Is there a mod out that helps in this?

I also Built up a border force, again stupid error :oops: :shame: , I focused, again, on my economy which was churning out about 10,000 denarii each turn after the 7th turn. I'm really going to have to focus back on my army... Those hordes will run right through me if I don't, I only have 3 units of Limitanei gurading each entry point in. :juggle2: Juggling the economy and soliders as the Western Empire is quite diffcult to manage at first but it kinda smoothes over gradually through the years, for me anyway. Again thanks for the help everyone, I'll constantly be here as well as I play Barbarian Invasion

Flavius Merobaudes
06-22-2007, 08:53
There's no testudo formation in BI, but if you really want it, you can easily mod it in.

Just open the export_descr_units in your RTW/data folder. Search for legionnaires. There is one line which lists the possible formations for the unit. Look for something like testudo.

Copy that entry, open the exp_descr_unit in your BI folder and attach it to any unit you want (comitatenses, plumbatarii, first cohorts?).

There you are. Although forming a testudo is a bit strange with those oval shields.:inquisitive:

I have the game currently uninstalled, so I can't be more specific on the edu entries and can't test if this really works, but I'm pretty sure it does.

Gizmo04
06-22-2007, 15:00
Yeah it would wouldn't it... :inquisitive: those oval shileds are cool, but Testudo goes better with long rectangular shields. Ok I'll give the modding a shot see how it goes. Thanks Flavius :2thumbsup: I'll get back to this forum and give feedback if it works or not.

Gizmo04
06-22-2007, 16:00
Erm... bad news, for me. I tried to do the modding myself and I somehow screwed up my game. Everytime I uploaded the game it cut out at the Sega bit. So I had to uninstall EVERYTHING, the 1.6 patch my Invasio Barbarioum mod my initial game... :furious3: I lost my saves... sob... I installed everything back though just the now. Still I never quit!!! The Western Empire will make a COME BACK!!!!

Thanks for the Idea though Flavius. I appreciate the help, maybe I did something else if the mod does work with you. When it comes to modding I'm kind-of, hate to admit it, but a newbie. I'd rather not tamper with the coding myself incase, example above, happens again.

Again, thanks Flavius. it was a good idea :2thumbsup:

Gizmo04
06-23-2007, 00:10
Ok started the game again, stabilized my Empire, no probs now with all the fantastic advice :2thumbsup: However I have a tiny problem, well quite massive when the hordes come and I'm effectively buggered!!! But I just wanted to know, about the advice on having a "border force" as it was. The army guarding the entry points into your empire, how many is reasonable and what do they/ could they be? I seem to place just three unit cards of Limitanei at each bridge because I'm building a rather large force, the biggest I've ever made, and I'm now exceeding my budget :oops: . So could I have recommendations from anyone on what troops to train and where to put them, just as suggestions ofcourse lol.
Thanks a million!! :2thumbsup:

Flavius Merobaudes
06-24-2007, 22:40
Hi, Gizmo. Sorry you had such bad problems. For me it works fine. If you decide to try modding any time again, remember to save the original files first.

I installed the game because I wanted to know if it works - and my comitatenses are now quite as versatile as legionnaires, although I must admit I use the testudo very rarely.

In case you want to try this:
-> open Rome-Total War\BI\data

-> open export_descr_unit

-> search plumbatarii

-> look for the formation line:
original: formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square

-> change to: formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square, testudo


If I had to guess I'd say you forgot the comma between square and testudo.

To your second question: I usually place some "border patrols" myself, too. That's what limitanei are for. I use only one unit at every bridge to deny access to foreign agents. Some kind of passport control. Later I upgrade to 2 limitanei and 1 archers.

I don't have problems to repel the Celts and take Dal Riada myself. Likewise the Moors are no threat. The Rhine frontier is save at first and might be "horded" later on, but you are strong then.

I found the problem in the beginning is to defend against the hordes that come across the balkan or hungary. To deal with that, I train Sarmatian Auxilia in Aquincum. I try to have a stack of at least 12 of them under a good general (night-fighter) in Pannonia (Aquincum region) or Campus Jazyges. That's were all my upkeep goes in the first 20 turn until I'm economically stabilized.

BTW, I went christian from turn one and concentrated one ports, roads, markets (in that order) except for a few unavoidable public order buildings. I disbanded all fleets and nearly all foederati. The first turn is all about: What building will I demolish in order to get the money for those churches? and What can I disband without loosing too much public order.

JagLover
06-25-2007, 14:53
I'm currently playing as the Western Empire on the hardest level of difficulty and I am doing fairly well.

Some observations

Units

Probably the best unit pound for pound is the carriage ballistre(can be produced in Rome). Keep them away from any battle where the enemy has horse archers and they can hammer the enemy battle after battle and take no casualties. Against the Franks I killed over a hundred of them in one battle with one such unit and they kill the more heavily armoured as easily as they do peasants.

I notice above that many advocate disbanding the Commitaries and cavalry as the first step. Personally I find the Commitaries, Samartian auxiliries, General cavalry and the above mentioned carriage Ballister to be the only units which are any good as the Western Empire. Archers are cheap so are well worth having and Foederenti infantry are only of use against cavalry.

Litimani often fight as well as Peasant units. They should not be relied upon to hold for long.

General Strategy. Eliminate immediate threats to not only gain cash but gain time. The first target should be the Allemande. Your free units in Italy and in Gaul are only a few turns away and they are relatively weak. Then the large army you have gathered can take out the Franks. Admitedly they then become a horde and are troublesome to wipe out. But left in place the Franks are a continual threat.

In Britain you have sufficient force to take the Celtish city in the North. Sack the city and then leave it for the Western Rebels.

As for the rest of the Empire abandon those cities which cannot be held. With careful attention to religion and tax rates however this should only be 3-4 cities. These cities can be sacked later for extra cash.

Disband as much of your fleet that you can get away with and sell as many military buildings as possible.

I have concentrated on making each city a single religion (whichever is predominant at the start) so the empire is a mixture of Pagan and Christian, but not each city.

JagLover
06-25-2007, 17:51
Carriage ballistae - these guys are no "limited practical usage ... novelty"!! With the possible exception of generals bodyguards, there is no more ridiculously overpowered uber-unit in the game! And these guys are much more entertaining to use than the generals. :beam: In any open field battle not involving a horde, you will win if you have one of these. They're fine against hordes, too, you just have to be very careful that the horse archers don't stray too close - bridge battles work well, as always. They are pretty useless in city fights, but the Roman factions already dominate those so that's not a big deal.
.

Agreed

They can be awesome. If you can target an enemy General they can take out most of his guard by themselves. Enemy cavalry can chase them but tend to be wiped out before they manage to close with them. In a good battle they can severly weaken many of an enemies strongest units, Chosen swordsmen etc, and all for the cost of 900.

Their one weakness is horse archers. Simply restricting them to fighting the Northern Tribes means you can keep them away from them.

Gizmo04
06-26-2007, 19:20
I'm currently playing as the Western Empire on the hardest level of difficulty and I am doing fairly well.

Some observations

Units

Probably the best unit pound for pound is the carriage ballistre(can be produced in Rome). Keep them away from any battle where the enemy has horse archers and they can hammer the enemy battle after battle and take no casualties. Against the Franks I killed over a hundred of them in one battle with one such unit and they kill the more heavily armoured as easily as they do peasants.

I notice above that many advocate disbanding the Commitaries and cavalry as the first step. Personally I find the Commitaries, Samartian auxiliries, General cavalry and the above mentioned carriage Ballister to be the only units which are any good as the Western Empire. Archers are cheap so are well worth having and Foederenti infantry are only of use against cavalry.

Litimani often fight as well as Peasant units. They should not be relied upon to hold for long.

General Strategy. Eliminate immediate threats to not only gain cash but gain time. The first target should be the Allemande. Your free units in Italy and in Gaul are only a few turns away and they are relatively weak. Then the large army you have gathered can take out the Franks. Admitedly they then become a horde and are troublesome to wipe out. But left in place the Franks are a continual threat.

In Britain you have sufficient force to take the Celtish city in the North. Sack the city and then leave it for the Western Rebels.

As for the rest of the Empire abandon those cities which cannot be held. With careful attention to religion and tax rates however this should only be 3-4 cities. These cities can be sacked later for extra cash.

Disband as much of your fleet that you can get away with and sell as many military buildings as possible.

I have concentrated on making each city a single religion (whichever is predominant at the start) so the empire is a mixture of Pagan and Christian, but not each city.


Yeah I have to agree, the carriage ballistae are highly effective troops. I have a few of them, they are quite expensive, but worth it! I used them against a Hunnic horde as they crossed from the Eastern Empire into my lands via the mountains, which is an effective natural barrier!
Thanks for the tips guys they've been helpful, oh the testudo modding, I'm a bit sceptical on the DIY modding lol, I'll screw it up again so I'll just leave it. Apparently the reformations of Constantine, from my own research, abandoned the testudo because it was ineffective against barbarian hordes. Personally I thought it was always great!! :2thumbsup: However... personally my favourite faction has to be the Western Empire, for its location and the mix of barbarian troops.

Yeah I also agree the Foederati are only really good for anti-light cavalry. They can take some heavy cavalry units, including the bodyguard, but don't get your hopes up as they do get mauled sometimes.

Oh and the Celts, yeah I just focused on establishing forts up near Caledonia just to hold them off, I don't really plan on conquering them because, well I'm scottish lol, so a bit a sympathy goes out there, plus they are quite difficult to beat as they have quite good units!

Ah yes Chrisitanity... well I just followed history... half the time, I, now, always change the Western Empire to christianity because of the loyalty benefits (Green faces all over the place... eventually) Which I find is most helpful considering it eases internal stife to a LONG era of peace so I can focus on external affiars.

Oh and Flavius, its ok no need to apoligise... lol I did forget the comma :oops: , I didn't notice but now its ok. :2thumbsup:

Gizmo04
06-27-2007, 13:54
Just a thought, :idea2: has anyone ever tried to play the Western Empire turning it towards christianity and keeping the empire, relatively, intact without destroying buildings? , apart from pagan temples ofcourse! :laugh4:

I tried this, with... some... success and somehow :inquisitive: I managed to keep Spain? First time thats happened, abviously the African coast you can keep simply same with Italy but when it cam to, what was, Gaul and Brittania they went green pretty quick. I just hate destroying the military buildings, then rebuilding them afterwards, Although they help in the retaking of the settlements, in the long term you have to upgrade them back, some, to what they were to face the hordes... properly.

To those who have played it as a pagan empire, would you say, in your opinion, that its better keeping it pagan overall?

Phoenix
06-27-2007, 14:36
In my game, I let each city keep the religion it started with aside for a couple border settlements that I switched to Mithra with no problems. Generally though, I'd say the pagan temples are better...Mithra give your troops a +2 experience bonus while Sol Invictus gives a 20% bonus to Law and gives the governor a 20% Law bonus trait which cuts down corruption by alot. Another thing is that Christianity gives more Public Order than Sol Invictus only if you build the Abbey line of buildings as well and they give the governor a trait that reduces trade income by up to 30%, if you don't then Sol Invictus's +20% Law and +10% Happiness beats the Christian Basilica's +10% Law and +15% Happiness.

Vitellus
06-28-2007, 03:24
I just felt it necessary to convert my entire empire to Christianity

a) I felt a duty to save my virtual citizen's souls, being a Christian meself
b) I didn't like the different regions influencin' and convertin' each other and causin' trouble.

So I just levelled temples and built shrines instead. I lost most of western Gaul, all of Spain save Corduba, and the Empire east of the Adriatic. A few quick sackings and exterminations later and I had no more religion problems for the rest of the game.

Gizmo04
06-29-2007, 20:30
I just felt it necessary to convert my entire empire to Christianity

a) I felt a duty to save my virtual citizen's souls, being a Christian meself
b) I didn't like the different regions influencin' and convertin' each other and causin' trouble.

So I just levelled temples and built shrines instead. I lost most of western Gaul, all of Spain save Corduba, and the Empire east of the Adriatic. A few quick sackings and exterminations later and I had no more religion problems for the rest of the game.


Lol Vitellus I understand, gotta save them or be virtually smited!! Plus paganism is just wrong... :whip:

Also I finally made an alliance with a barbarian faction, first time in since I bought the game! The vandals believe it or not were the ones I picked, or rather more accurate, they picked me. Word of advise, don't ally with them, they'll stab you in the back when they resume their hordic life, typical babarians!!! FILTH!!!! Anyway, I have started to invest in Carrage Ballistae in Rome, right now in my campaign I have reformed all the provinces I owned at the begining to be Christian and I the ones I assimilated, lol love that word, were Viscus Allemani and campus... something or other, its the one above Aquincum, I turned them christian aswell. So with two new territories, one faction wiped out, an economy churning out 14,000 denari a turn and a border force at each bridge comprising of 2 Limitanei and 1 archer I think I'm doing relatively well. Considering its 368AD. I have the celts pinned up at Caledonia with my fort and assassin doing a fine job by the way!! I recommend sending him up to hinder there family members. I only have to kill the faction leader now with him, but he'll adopt more and thats what I want... practise... :laugh4:

Any other ideas guys, although you've given me enough and I'm thank ful, but things are going TOO good, infact this campaign has been relatively easy compared to my last 50 tries :shame: Still I think I'm going to get a HUGE wake up call... something like a coalition of hordes knocking at my door... but I hope not... :wall:

Greacia_Roma
07-05-2007, 19:17
Something that bothers me is that there are no people who think that pagan gods are good. i mean good for u christian is wonderful but the romans built the empire on pagan gods i enjoy staying pagan.

Severous
07-05-2007, 20:01
I went pagan in post 113

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1581792&postcount=113

Phoenix
07-06-2007, 06:09
I stay pagan whenever I play the WRE.

Gizmo04
07-06-2007, 17:03
Well I did it, I played the Western Roman Empire and stayed PAGAN, yep thats right I went heathenistic lol. Anyway I believe that if you want to keep 2/3 of your empire intact quite easily go with paganism becuase the neighbouring barbarian towns are mostly pagan so there will be no regional conflict, not much anyway. As some people have mentioned going pagan allows for some nice troop vetran upgrades, however the downside with me was that the stabilisation of my economy took longer than it did being Christian, as going christian makes the people immediately turn from revolting to happy so I could focus on my economy straight away, with paganism I seen too many blue faces, some yellow, so I had to focus, I think, three turns on making them yellow or green then I built ports, roads, markets/forums/traders and communal farming etc.

Somehow after the "Martyrdom of Esubuis" the hordes came and I had quite a small yet highly experienced army protecting my lands from the hordes, which just arrived at this historical part of time. I just vanquished the Ostrogoths, Vandals and Sarmatians... next the HUNS!!!!

In my opinion though, I preffered sticking to history and making the Roman culture turn to Christianity. :2thumbsup:

Side note: I would just like to make clear that my views on paganism is no way a racial slur on them, I have a wide acceptance and understanding for other religions and I, in all honesty, I am a Roman Catholic not a "practacing" Roman Catholic becuase I do not believe in any religion that dictates how I should live, I DO however follow laws. :2thumbsup:

The_crusader
07-26-2007, 23:01
I found that its actualy easyer to control the falling Wester empirer by staying pagan,of course there are some cities that want to convert so I let them convert I found that the region of Italie could be easely controled if they are christian...

And I too followed histories foot steps and started to go on a christian rampage at around the year 425 when Theodosus made christianety the new dominant religions,sorry Mithras...it was fun but its Jesus's turn now:ave:

Mithras
07-30-2007, 20:58
I wrote a pretty good essay on Paganism vs Christianity on the previous page. astheticly I prefer Paganism becouse it seems more 'Roman' combined with the profound stupidity and arrogence of the dark ages. Plus when I go Christian I keep getting flashes of Pat Robertson and The God channel in the back of my head.

I also spend a lot of time tinkering with Pagan traits. The priest and mystics have conversion values in my game


...it was fun but its Jesus's turn now:ave:

The neo pagans will harken my return in time.

I'll be starting my final section of revision soon-economics and Strategy.

rvg
09-12-2007, 18:52
Well, WRE is mostly Pagan from the start anyway, and it is far easier to fully paganize it than Christianize it. Just as ERE is the exact opposite and should always go Christian all the way.
Aside from convenience though, there is little reason even for WRE to be Pagan, as Roman troops are tough enough to be more than a match for barbarians even without the +2 exp bonus from the Mithras temple line... besides, Cathedrals/Monasteries mean more happiness and growth, which in turn means more tax revenue, which in turn would allow me to recruit yet another Silver Sword/Shield 1st Cohort out of the eternal city.
Anyhow, most of my WRE games tend to favor a mixed religion empire with Christianity slowly replacing Paganism over the course of several decades.

Boyar Son
09-17-2007, 03:16
I could NOT beat this without cheats guys (only money and fog of war).


Rome (in the city) has good troops use them for EMERGENCIES only, cuz the barbs will swarm all over northern italy.

Robespierre
10-24-2007, 00:41
one observation about the wre situation, is to say this:
BE A CRUSTY!
do not bother to build hygiene structures in the first 50 turns, no matter how much unhappiness is begotten by the squalor. Why? because baths and aquaducts and all such fripperies only encourage the people to breed faster and the population then grows, to the point a city again becometh froward.

WRE early game is about Crisis Management. there is not enough spare cash to cover plug the tech-tree gap in all the burgeoning cities. Be Ruthless. if possible get the imperial palace in a town; then pull the garrison, raise the taxes, and slaughter the people! from an authoritarian angle, cadavers have one thing to be said for them: they never rebel again!

i am into redistribution of wealth. you sack a city and the loot can now be redistributed. in other towns, first get up your trading ports and markets, basic temples, then the academy line. this gives the governors management bonuses. this is martial law, it is scorched earth, it is total war.

Robespierre
10-26-2007, 14:05
my continuing campaign: wre, hard/very hard. the year 384 and for the western empire, the emergency goes on. in Gaul, the goths, sarmatians, the celts and the saxons share in the task of mashing up one anothers' armies and slaughtering the civilian population. occassionally a roman army will join in the fun. the job for now is to contain these barbarous peoples in the north, from where they cannot threaten the mediterranean core.

celtic armies are fun to fight. some turns back they routed an unlead half-stack of comitatenses. varre, redde mihi legiones, or whatever. it helped keep costs down at any rate. it is vital to concentrate on the berserkers, or they will rout your centre. use throwing sticks, make berserker kebabs. double line is best. infiltrate with cavalry and throw their numerous light skirmishers into disarray. 'old the line and mop up.


i note that ere is outperforming us economically and i reckon the solution has to be to invade them and steal the aegean trade zone. plenty more bloodshed then. and all those unique talents of the early family are into their late 50s. time to start reshuffling. mind you, some of the young pagans do look promising.

Robespierre
10-27-2007, 17:34
trade zones. money. all in all its what the fightings all about.. now the homeless hordes have been liquidated, its 399 and wre in engaged on two fronts. in the north, celts and saxons. in the east, ERE. both conflicts are waged by sea and land. the prizes are the profitable sea trade routes of the aegean and north sea.win these campaigns, the game is in my lap.

Flavius Merobaudes
10-27-2007, 20:02
Hi Tacticus, glad to see there is still somebody here to defend the Roman empire.:yes: So you lost Britain... Did you really lose it to the Celts or did you leave deliberately? I know the hordes can be a problem (they were in my games), but I thought it was easy to keep the Celts at bay, the Saxons even more so.
And is the ERE a worthy counterpart that offers some resistance? Let me know as you continue...

Robespierre
10-27-2007, 20:28
i stripped back the army in turn one, so severely that the island was undefended. the governor was shipped south due to his good loyalty. the thing with the celts is, there's alot of em. cheap troops. the balance is now flowing back my way (i just destroyed two stacks in the woods south of Samobriva but there is a third stack waiting). they clearly "plot to become a power", got a foothold while my attention was occupied with the hordes, and now have alot of boats too. it is sheer attrition.

Robespierre
10-30-2007, 01:59
So far, so good. land forces ERE and the celtic enemy have collapsed. but by sea the conflicts are far from over. both factions boast powerful navies. sea-trade is the lifeblood of the empire, and considerable funds must be spent on countering this new threat. meanwhile, with abbeys built in all the italian cities, i am starting to paganize again. this involves daily games and a travelling troupe of pagan character party-animals. sol invictus rules ok!

Magister Militum Titus Pullo
11-05-2007, 03:21
My first act as playing the Western Roman Empire would be increasing my treasury (in other words, cheating), queueing up construction projects in all my cities, recruiting as many units as I can, and of course, destroying every christian building blighting my empire. Historically, Rome turned to decline when it accepted the "light" of Christ into their lives, so the quicker I return the empire back to its rightful gods (forgetting for a second that Mithras was persian) the better. Also, I would like to make the twenty-six year-old governor of Salamantica, one Marcellus Flavius, the new Caesar of the west.
The man has "Superior Commander", "Into the Breach" and "Local Hero" amongst his traits. After investing him as the heir of the west, I then despatch him from his governorship in Lusitania to take command of the legions I am levying in Italia and Gaul. Thats what Rome needs: a young an vigorous soldier to reunify the empire and to destroy those feral and villainous barbarians that would supplant it.

edward13
12-06-2007, 12:31
Thanx4 al ur comments, played wre on md/md did e usu of disbanding e ext units witin e city so e pop grows;-)bt banded e affordable ones to fight off e hordes:-)did al that lt ma provinces rebel bt wit lesser strength units, gt them al bak decimated e hordes as they came along wit sm real cool ambushes! ma1st strike was alway an ambush,wit commis n sarmat cav GuD n affordable!i'm weird cos i hate chasing Dwn ha's unLk most players i really find

edward13
12-06-2007, 13:04
so to cut e long story short Nw I've gt e map upto half wy point of black sea n al e wy to e north sea,british isles, north africa upto lepsis mag. made a beach head in asia minor fr constant:-)Nw watchin e ErE fal apart due2 internal rebellions n e battered sassa makin half hearted skirmishes. Nw It's more of a diplomatic battle wit a thumping coffer! dictating terms wit ma agents:-)bt ma BST generals are loosing loyalty:-(wen they fight rebels

edward13
12-06-2007, 13:25
wel Nw I've got almost 1/2e map half wy mark of black sea north n south,british isles,north africa up to lepsis magna,a beach head in asia minor,took it fr constant!ma fighting army consist of commis archers n sarmat cav! i counter cav wit cav,e enemy usu goes for ma commis bt while they're on them i flank wit ma sarmat! decisive blow! take Dwn their e charging enemy infant wit ma 3-4stack archers.oh by e wy i've played by hist n turned e empire

vegetable
12-17-2007, 09:40
I just started playing the Western Roman Empire campaign (only played a few turns). I am playing on medium/medium though. It doesn't seem too difficult. I've played the long RTW campaigns with the Scipio and the Selecuid Empire (which was a cakewalk. That faction is excellent).

In the early turns I took financial losses but stabilised the rioting settlements. Only one revolted because there was no governor there, but was swiftly won back in the next turn.

Of course, the state religion is paganism. Churches were demolished, priest units (good for nothings) disbanded, and proper pagan temples built in their place. The public were provided with games (probably in which Christians were being thrown to the lions, actually that should happen and games should influence conversion more than 5%, as they also encourage conversion to paganism as well as get rid of the Christian population!) to take their mind off the lack of churches and to turn them into proper Romans. In the same vein Christian faction members are not allowed faction leadership or governance in larger provinces.

Much of the kingdom has been reclaimed from Christianity. Carthage remains its last stronghold, only because of a nasty Christian governor with excellent management and influence traits. He will be replaced soon though, either assassinated (can you assassinate your own faction members? hmm, got to try that sometime) or sent to live in a fort in the middle of nowhere.

Also, my forces are gathering at the borders. The attacks will commence soon. :)

Quintus.JC
01-07-2008, 15:41
Is it just me or does the game really lack historical battles, there are only two available! What about all the other famous battles, even I know the battle of Adrianople fought between Visigoths and ERE. There should be lots of them during times like that.

c4stigator
02-09-2008, 20:54
I lost the pc I had been playing my old ERE campaign on (+400 years down the drain :[ ), so, with my new pc, I decided to give the WRE a spin. I had tried playing them before, but my lack of patience, coupled with all the WRE's problems, soon put me off. However, this time, I was determined to make it work.

As always, I started the game to find crippling money problems, rebeling towns and half the game's enemies on my doorstep. Previously, I had destroyed buidlings and expensive units, but this time I just let them be. I built a few temples and sewers around the place, just to keep people happy, and upped the garrisons in places; notably Spain, where it's very hard to keep order. (One small note; I ALWAYS destroy areanas. They are not good! There are other ways of making people happy, which dont' rely on a staggeringly large amount of money.)

As the WRE, despite a huge army upkeep, I only had 2 field armies to begin with, both under half-strength. A proven tactic in my last tries, was to take Campus Alleman, and wipe out the Allemane faction early on. So, I merged my two armies and took the city in a few turns. All was good. Then I made the mistake of attacking the Franks. I won the battle, yes, but I forgot that the Franks could horde. At that time they did not bother me, and merely retreated north. After this, I got the rebbellions, two at that time, mainly in Gaul. My army quickly reclaimed them.

After a few years of rebeling-reclaiming, the Vandals eventually arrived in Italy. Strangely, they bipassed Rome, and began an assualt on western Gaul. My army (WRE's bad finances meant I could only have one) destroyed them after a series of long battles (the most humourus being a 5v1, where they took +3000 casualties). After only the faction leader remained, I left him and sent my army back to Italy, where the Samartians where making themselves known. Unlike the Vandals, the Samartians where content to attack Italy, siegeing Ravena. My army quickly arrived on the scene, but, after the casualties taken from the Vandal battles, lost a number of battles. However, with reinforcements from Rome, the Samartians where eventually destroyed.

With a sigh of "no rest for the wicked", I turned my solitary army around, and marched them north, where the Franks had cut a large swathe out of my territory. Another brutal campaign saw them once again defeated, but still alive, taking refuge in eastern Europe, where I can only hope the battling Goths, Huns and ERE will destroy them.

Overall, after 70 in game years, and <10 hours, I'd say my campaign is going very well; much better than I thought it would be. Most of western Europe is under Roman law, whilst the east is currently being fortified for when the Huns finnaly arrive (must have taken a wrong turning somewhere). The seperate theatres of Britain and Africa are caught in a cycle of rebellion/loyalitst uprising, though these are basically holding me back; I might just cut my losses and leave them for the rebels.

So, my take on the WRE army.
Infantry = mediocre. Limitanei and foderati are just fodder and cant hold up in a fight against anything. Both should be used as garrison troops, with foderati as the garrison on the front lines. Comitasenses are where the WRE excell. They're not nessecarily cheap, but they're easily avalible, and can slaughter pretty much any other infantry I've come across so far. Auxilia Palitia i haven't had the chance to use yet; so it seems WRE have to pay alot and wait even longer for any decent spearmen.
Archers = poor. Only archers and bullecari, neither are exceptional (unlike Eastern Archers; god I miss ERE). I favour standard archers over bullecari; for price and avalibilty.
Cavalry = good. Suprisingly, the WRE cavalry really works. Though foderati are useless, Samartian cavalry and above are amazing; easily a match for the cavalry the hordes throw at you.

I use a standard set up of: 10 comitasenses, 4 units of Samartain cavalry, a general and 4 units of archers, for a perfect field army.

The Wandering Scholar
02-11-2008, 22:39
That's the spirit, hard work equals success. hey, what ethics this game promotes:P

Vitellus
02-12-2008, 04:28
I never had problems putting large armies of limitanei into the field...against most barbarian foot troops they hold their own in sufficient numbers, and provide a good base to rally cavalry behind and protect archers. Granted, against the horde cavalry you'll face you'll want some higher quality stuff, buuut comitatenses aren't much better in that regard.

julianus heraclius
02-12-2008, 12:51
Guys, you should head over to the TWC Invasio Barbarborum site where you will find various mods of the vanilla BI. All very good and very historical.

Cheers

c4stigator
02-24-2008, 13:35
Hmm, I guess I spoke a little too early...earlier.

You are in fact, despite what i said before, completely doomed when you play as the WRE. Soon after posting my report, my empire began to fall apart. Usuaally this is down to major rebbeling, but, this time, the game acctualy did what it was suspposed to, and all the hordes arrived on my doorstep. The Slavs were the main perpetrators, taking western Gaul and Spain in quick succession. The Burgundii also arrived in Italy, taking Mediolanium and Ravenna. The Franks also caused no end to trouble in the north.

Eventually, I was stuck in Italy, with only 5 provinces left, and sitting on a debt of around 100,000 denarii. Thankfully, probably due to playing on Easy mode :embarassed: , I began to get my money back, 2000 denarii a turn. Eventually, in 488, I began to hit the posotives. My last emperor (the last Flavian) died, and the empire passed to the young Odacer Pansa. Taking what meagre funds that had been gathered, he invested in 8 units of comitsatenses, and marched north. Mediolanium, Ravenna, Vicus Alemanni, Vicus Franki, Odacer took them all. Taking a dead Empire back from the brink of destruction, he surged northwards leaving a trail of dead Franks, Slavs and rebels in his wake. In just over 10 years the Empire had almost tripled in size, along with the Imperial treasury. By 500, Odacer the Great (affectionatly known as the Roman Alexander) stopped his campaign, and took a well desrerved break in the north, preparing to face the Slavic incursions in the West, the Frankish assaults in the North and the inevitable ERE expansion from the East. The Slavs came first, trying to sieze back their territory along the French coast. Most of the assaults failed, but some ground was lost. The Franks and ERE continued to wait, no doubt for Odacer to die and leave the Empire open for an assault.

As Odacer neared his death, his only son, Cassius, came of age, and Odacer, wanting to see the capital again, marched south, with his son and the remains of those faithful units which had accompanied him all those years ago.

After suppressing several uprisings and besting a few Slavic armies, Odacer finaly made it back to Italy, but died of old age, in 524, before he could again see Rome. The young Cassius, now emperor, quickly returned to the capital.

With Odacer dead and buried, the Eastern Romans saw their oppurtunity to invade, witha lightning strike campaign, which divided the Empire in two, leaving Italy and a part of the Northern coast. The Franks, now a horde faction, made their reapparance in Gaul, along with new Slavic armies.

Now, in 550, the northern provinces have been annexed, and the WRE stands as it did in 488, isolated and bankrupt. (whats the cheat for money? :P ). Now however, there are ERE armies posied to surge down to Rome.

Revised army summary:

It seems comitsatenses are really the way forward for the Roman factions. Don't use a field army with less than 5 of these units. Back them up with Auxilia Palitia, Bulecarii and Samartian Cavalry (Don't stoop to Foderati cav, and don't bother paying extra for the others; Samartians fit the bill perfectly). Maybe some artilley too; WRE has quite a range.

Flavius Merobaudes
02-25-2008, 18:08
Interesting campaign, c4stigator.

It seems comitsatenses are really the way forward for the Roman factions. Don't use a field army with less than 5 of these units.
Commitatenses are quite a good unit, but I prefer to use Plumbatarii instead. They have the same upkeep and cost only 50 bucks more, which is absolutely affordable. They have a longer range (70 vs. 40), deal one more damage and have better endurance, plus they are "highly_trained" to keep better formation and won't rout. You've got plenty of large cities in the beginning, which can train them, if the structures are present. One First Cohort, 4 Plumbatarii and 4 Auxilia Palatina make up the core of my legions.

Quintus.JC
02-25-2008, 22:37
I'm grateful for the Sarmatian Auxilia. more cost efficent than Scholae Palatina and Equite Cataphracts. The game is very good but all the steppes factions seems to have all he exact same units. with only minor difference.

Flavius Merobaudes
02-26-2008, 14:44
I'm grateful for the Sarmatian Auxilia.
So am I. They are worth their weight in gold. I must confess I sometimes spam them against the hordes.

https://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6727/0010ic9.th.jpg (https://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0010ic9.jpg)

I'll have to deal with 4 hordes simultaneously, soon. Somehow, the Sarmatians managed to fend off the Huns and Vandals...

Quintus.JC
02-26-2008, 18:57
Your army looks like Parthia in RTW. I try to keep a balanced force. The situation looks tough. How many fronts are you fighting on?

Flavius Merobaudes
02-26-2008, 21:10
Your army looks like Parthia in RTW. I try to keep a balanced force. The situation looks tough. How many fronts are you fighting on?

I know the Sarmatian spam is an exploit, but it's just an emergency measure. Aquincum can train them from turn 1, and with a nightbattle capable character, they are the ultimate horde and general killers. I nearly managed to send the Vandal royal family to their ancestors, but didn't have enough movement points left for the last stack, so they had time to adopt a captain.

I'm currently training my first regular legion in Rome that will stay in northern Italy until the horde threat is gone. It consists of the Magister Peditum, 1 unit of priests, 1 First Cohort, 4 Plumbatarii, 4 Auxilia Palatina, 2 Archers, 2 Equites Sagittarii, 4 Sarmatian Auxilia and 1 of these amazing carriage ballistae. That last unit is another exploit by its own...

It will take some time, but I'm confident I'll wear the hordes down. I'll keep a constant pressure on them, attacking each and every turn, and my economy can provide a steady flow of reinforcements. Anyway, Rome wasn't built in a day...

I got a ceasefire with the Alemanni - they seem to be more interested in the rebel settlements and sneak around Vicus Franki. I got trade rights with the other Germans and they behave until now.

The Celts have a strong army near Dal Riada, but didn't attack yet. However, my assassin does a good job killing their agents and family members. The Saxons came over for some sight-seeing in Edinburgh and are now at war with the Scots (Celts). Probably an argument about who has the better beer. This is very good for us wine-drinking Romans...

I send the army from Sicily to Tingi, and the Berbers are now officially crippled with only the desert village left. The ERE has its own problems and hasn't even thought about breaking the alliance yet. So the only serious threat are the hordes.

I went all Christian (except Eburacum) on turn one and it's starting to pay off as I got a homogenous Empire and a strong economy by now. One problem remains: the unstoppable population growth. But there I use a third exploit, population control by riots. If a town grows too fast, pull out your garrison and set taxes to very high. This will raise your income and decrease population. Stalinistic methods, but hey, it's a game and the late Roman empire was a military dictatorship anyway. Don't forget to reclaim control the next turn however.

When this campaign starts to get boring, I'll try to reconvert and found the Holy Roman Empire of Mithras...

Quintus.JC
02-27-2008, 21:55
The Magister Peditum is quite superb, though I do miss Eastern archers. and I rather have Commitantes than Plums. I'm just sorta of fond of them. the Iberian penisular is the first of the purges, all town masscred. destroying all military building will bring little income, but this will insure future riots will end up with no more than peasants garrison. which is easily taken out by generals. Christianity should be the state religion, it was easier with the East. you're getting along well with the Germans states. In my campaign The Franks were hard to deal with, with hordeble ability. while I was prepared to abandon Britain to the Celts, but the invading army was not as formidable as i first thought. Felix did a good job. The Saxons are in a mega war with the Burgadians. The Lambords are nowhere to be seen. The long feared steppes eventually came. But I had good armies in Ravenna, taking hordes out 1 step a time and also I had superb assassins preying on unprotected horde family members. The East had it’s own problems but the Berbers were really annoying. Had to use the Carthaginian wall to ensure my control in Africa. Haven’t though as Tingi, probably should of taken it and ended the African trouble. I liked the Pavarturii. They were the Arcanis of the late Empire. I also had 1 unit of Scholae Palatina. Carriage ballistae were useful, being equivalent of Horse archers with more fire power. Never noticed what advantage pagan temples bring, what advantage do they bring………………….

Jalex
03-24-2008, 01:07
Hey I was wondering what people use to defeat Hordes? Only thing I do now is autoresolve battles with them which I feel is gamey as it gives me victories I can't gain on my own. Also were is the Berber city deep in Africa? I bought the game on Trademe and it didn't have a map :inquisitive:

Critical Bill
03-25-2008, 14:41
Not being that good at the game, I use a nifty combination of bridges, carriage ballista, heavy onagers, archers and plumbatarii. Also a few units of Auxlia Palitinae to hold off any cavalry that get through.

It's the only way I can come up with of not being annihalated by massed horse archers.

Quintus.JC
03-25-2008, 17:00
Hey I was wondering what people use to defeat Hordes? Only thing I do now is autoresolve battles with them which I feel is gamey as it gives me victories I can't gain on my own. Also were is the Berber city deep in Africa? I bought the game on Trademe and it didn't have a map :inquisitive:


The best way to defeat hordes is loads of cavalry charges. Sarmatian auxiliary is key to your victory. Commentanteis are more than enough to handle any infantry the hordes can throw at you, Auxilia Palatina might be needed in case if the enemy have strong cavalry presence, Carriage ballista is also very effective. Also night attack really helps; as it separates one single horde army from their reinforcement army, so your soldiers don’t have to fight more than one army at once.

I believe the Berbers have a city (Dimmidi) right in the heart of the Sahara, and also another city, Tingi in modern Morocco. Can’t find a map for BI at the movement.

Sheogorath
04-29-2008, 17:48
My strategy for the WRE was simple. Everything outside of Italy and Carthage was demolished and/or disbanded. All those govonors got to sit around in settlements with taxes set on high until they revolted or were killed by barbarians/rebels. I also threw in a Christian church in each settlement to ensure that any barbarians who happened along would be faced with a very unhappy population.
My next move was to stabilize Italy. This meant lowering taxes (unfourtunatly), bringing in a few surviving legions from outside to stabilize the more rebellious cities, and exterminating the population of a couple of cities that just didnt want to stay calm.
This is probably the most difficult part, as the financial problems brought on by maintaining the army mean that I'm 20k in debt and only gaining 700 or so per turn. This is rectified by a wandering stack which is sacking cities left and right, but its starting to get worn down.
As my main targets for disbandments were cavalry and comestinates, my military isnt up to much in the way of expansion as of yet.
But Rome will rise again! And there will be proper Roman-style orgies for all! None of that barbarian drunking carousing!

RLucid
04-30-2008, 09:12
Is it just me or does the game really lack historical battles, there are only two available! What about all the other famous battles, even I know the battle of Adrianople fought between Visigoths and ERE. There should be lots of them during times like that.
Perhaps the problem is partly due to a lack of detailed historical accounts and sources. There needs to be a lot more solid info, than "battle of X where Y were defeated", to make a plausible "model" battle. According to the mil. history book I've got on period even included famous battle like "Chalons" is short on solid info, probably the game version includes more cavalry than actually fought at time.

Historically, massed light infantry archers defensively dominated horse archers, through greater range and fire density. The HC would actually be lured away, and then find themselves in huge trouble isolated, tiring; facing more maneuvrable missile LC with fresh HC coming in for the kill later. The game may distort things, by not making LC faster, and higher movement stamina than HC.

But the problem was of course, that very strategically mobile cavalry armies, could not be pinned down and destroyed decisively. Later in history, raiding armies could only be tackled once they were encumbered by booty.

Celtic_Punk
05-01-2008, 11:26
the game is supposed to make you lose as this faction.
when i tried my cards at this faction i pretty much hung all the rioters :hanged:
and tried to find some area to consolidate in, and let my borders collapse so i would have a somewhat strong position. i eventually gave up tho... found out you could mod the factions so i could play as the celts :P :ireland:

Quintus.JC
05-01-2008, 13:42
Perhaps the problem is partly due to a lack of detailed historical accounts and sources. There needs to be a lot more solid info, than "battle of X where Y were defeated", to make a plausible "model" battle. According to the mil. history book I've got on period even included famous battle like "Chalons" is short on solid info, probably the game version includes more cavalry than actually fought at time..........
.

Adrianople !

RLucid
05-01-2008, 14:15
Well the Wiki write up kind of illustrates my point, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople

There are fewer well documented battles to choose from, and we don't know the criteria for choosing them. Then again perhaps the success of the campaign game, mean less emphasis on historical battles. They may have been partly developed for RTW, because of the Time Commanders / Decisive Battle TV usage, and if marketing didn't think they'd be a selling point, then less effort goes in.

When I installed BI, it was historic battles I looked at, for a quick try out; so actually I do agree with your main point, and only a CA spokesman could give official reasons, and would we believe PR statements anyway?

Quintus.JC
05-01-2008, 20:38
List of Roman battles.
There so many to choose from 365A.D-476. Plus you can have some outside that time-frame (Asculum was in 279B.C while Badon Hill was after the BI have official finished as well).

RLucid
05-01-2008, 22:17
Nice long list, but there often seems not to be any meat on the bones.

Quintus.JC
05-02-2008, 15:30
Nice long list, but there often seems not to be any meat on the bones.

Surely some are good enough to make it to the historical battles. Of course not all of them are worth of a place.

RLucid
05-02-2008, 15:41
Suppose you design a mod offering the battles. Aren't you going to worry about quibbles about historical accuracy and such like? Market an evolutionary update to RTW. You think it's the historic battles that sell the game, or the campaign?

Compare with the ease of doing the minimum possible...

Quintus.JC
05-02-2008, 15:50
All of the original historically battles are barely 80% historically accurate, but at least it’s there.

RLucid
05-02-2008, 15:59
And what response did they have?
What was the expected market for RTW v RTW BI?

I agree with you it'd be nice to have historic battles, just doubt anyone hard nosed think they are what sells the game and especially an upgrade to a less sexy decline of empire time.

Cardinal Bard
11-14-2008, 10:32
My Strategy as the WRE (playing with Vanilla Balance Mod/Bugfixer mod) was to christianize the empire on the first turn by destroying all shrines and replacing, i also destroyed all milatary buildings except inand try to stop as many cities as possible from rebelling whilst trying not to disband my whole army. Obvious All light cav copped it but i kept sarmatians since i think there was only 2-3 units, most other units stayed, even the boats (previously i always sunk) as this helped my plan. Capital bacame Masillia.

I formed an army in Iberia, Northern Italy, Africa and Gaul and money was sound for the first few turns until rebelions in The Balkans, Northern Italy, Iberia, Britianna, Sicily and Gaul and i briefly dipped into the red. In Africa the army consisted of a few family members, comms and archers about 9 strong, so i crossed the ocean and sacked Sicily and headed back to Carthage to keep building this army was very small but sicily got me closer to the black. In Iberia the army again was family and this time archers and spears and sacked Cathago Nova and then Salamanca and got into the black. The Africa and Iberia armies then joined there strenght to give 3/4 stack of troops and proceeded to sack Tingi and Dimiddi and take out the Berbers. Treasury starting to function for the Border Cities, Lepcis Magna in Africa got a semblance of a garrison rather than peasants. Whilst forming this army for Iberia/Africa i dumped a heap of Pagan Family members and some christian embezzlers in a single navy and deposited them to the bottom of the ocean.

Meanwhile the Northern Italy Army (fully buffed from rome)Sacked its way thru the North and the Balkans building exp garrisons at Mediolanium, Raetia, Pannonia and Salona. The Vandals came knocking and where repulsed with the Goths which both are in Dacia now with one settlement each and no armies(job done). Although Aquicum is a rebel buffer state until i gain more strength. More family members down the ocean floor.

Gaul had the most trouble, Lomabards and Burgadians were set free by the Franks and Saxons who both hold Germania( and still haven't bothered with Gaul - thank god) Burgadians destroyed by franks and i destroyed the Lomabards after they retook Avaricum and regained there strength. I destroyed the Almanni early to gain another buffer state (rebel due to the Huns sacking) I only just built up enough cash to properly garrison and equip 2 Gaul armies to destroy the Huns on their way thru and now the Celts in brittania.

As its stands the west is mine the east is the ERE since they have dominated the persians i took all the hordes out (sarmatians/Roxlani doing nothing yet) and the ERE has just declared war again and then Pax Romana once they are gone!!

Agent Miles
11-17-2008, 17:19
My first try with the WRE is surprisingly easy on VH/VH, no mods and huge units. I eliminated most of the troop producing buildings and a lot of the troops on the first turn, which kept me out of debt from that point on. I moved the capital to Massila and queued up as many peasants as it took to keep at least blue faces everywhere. I specialized the settlements in Italy for HA’s and crossbow infantry types. This allowed me to make cavalry heavy armies with silver weapons and armor from Rome. I had two riots on turn two and a few thereafter, but not one settlement has actually rebelled.
I quickly fortified my frontier with the east along the Rhine and Danube which helped a lot. I put together a group of pagan Family Members and used them to smash rebels in Spain and Gaul. Their bodyguard regenerate and heavy cavalry rocks. I targeted the Berbers and the Celts for extinction which simplified my borders strategically. I send the troops I produce in Italy to the Army of the Rhine or the Danube each of which has a six star commander. I use the initial troops with lots of mercenaries elsewhere. The ERE declared war almost immediately, but have only run from my armies. I have taken Athens and the only problem they pose is a stack of nine large ships that defy destruction. The Vandals have arrived but are mostly just wandering between the ERE and Salona. I was able to make a team of Christian FM’s and agents that convert a completely pagan settlement in about two turns. After more than a decade the WRE leads in every category.

Arcana
11-17-2008, 18:25
My first experience with it was to just march out of a number of the disgruntled town, allowing them to rebel. Once they did so, I simply crushed the rebels and then massacred the town. For towns like Carthage and Rome herself, this quickly provided a huge amount of cash, and the locals soon learn that to defy is to die. Overextension = bad. I gave up on Britannia immediately and consolidated my hold on mainland Europe (after selling everything, of course) - basically following the real WRE's footsteps there. The additional troops from Britannia were merged with my Gallic forces and sent to crush some nearby Barbarian scum. Hordes are a problem, but are a problem best met head-on; even victories can be costly to them, and while they may gain a bit of ground and your army may suffer defeats at the hands of loads of full stacks, the long odds are in your favour; you can replenish your ranks. They can't. Once crippled, leave them to waste out in the forests and find another victim. The WRE's problem is it's surrounded by a lot of people who really don't like them, and a lot of towns eager to rebel against you too.

But Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was her Empire. If you war, war mercilessly and do not stop your campaign until they are destroyed utterly. If you are at peace, you might want to let a big settlement well within your borders (e.g., Rome) rebel, reconquer and massacre to strengthen your coffers a bit to prepare for your next conquest.

Beyond the obligatory trade rights, map sells and alliances of convenience to be reneged on later, sod diplomacy. It's called Total War for a reason. :P

Agent Miles
11-17-2008, 19:50
Yes of course, but there is no need to slaughter your own citizens. As I have shown, you can actually govern them instead. I have plenty of money and my settlements don’t rebel. They are converting to Christianity and all is well. It’s that easy. I save extermination for my enemies.

Polemists
11-23-2008, 11:30
If you want slaughter and Paganism:

So in my game I went opposite of alot of the advice. I wanted a big long bloody civil war. So first turn I destroyed all christian buildings, built all pagans, and watched the chaos ensue.

I mean WRE is a hard faction, and I want them as a hard faction.

Anyway here is what happened.

So first fifty turns were spent battling the disloyal, christians, and regaining lost lands. The benefit is while pagan traits were bad my general got some very nice retinue members for being pagan.

I went directly against Eastern Rome while battling the hordes. The hordes provided good combat experience and in general I did not find Eastern Rome that hard to push back/take. This was on medium but bare in mind I did this example twice and each time your general out towards eastern rome with all the command and relics usually joins eastern rome.

Once you have a good chunk of eastern Rome and the hordes beaten back it's just a matter of chosing what to conquer.

The horde battles were difficult with smaller strating armies but not impossible. As hard as this was I found Lithuania in MTW2 Kingdoms a fair bit harder.

The key to going pagan (with no mods and no city give aways or destroyed) is to just keep in mind most of your starting sons will rebel, I found the grandsons more useful though anyway.

Agent Miles
11-24-2008, 15:24
I found the WRE to be the easiest faction.

This is my WRE blitz strategy (VH/VH, no mods and huge units). You don't have to abandon any of your settlements or butcher any of your own citizens or change anyone's religion. You start with 25 of the 34 settlements you need to win (as well as 3 of the 4 specific settlements). So do whatever you must to get at least blue faces everywhere. Move the capital to Masilia. Use urban renewal to scrape some cash together. Build forts blocking all crossing points into the WRE from the Rhine and the Danube and garrison them with a peasant unit. You can beat the Celts with what you have in England (hire mercenaries or add some local infantry if you must). Send the units in Syracuse to Carthage and the units in Spain to North Africa. You can easily crush the Berbers (again hire mercs). Disband most of the other units, except for an army on the Rhine and in Salona led by a loyal general. The Army of the Rhine takes out the Alemanni (who don't horde and aren't difficult to crush) and the rebel settlement to the north. Thessalonica and Constantinople are weakly held and can easily be taken by your other force at Salona. If you use spies to open the gates or onagers to batter them down, then you should be done before you can say eastern hordes. Victory after 16 turns in A.D. 370!

https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/WRE/?action=view&current=WRE370Victory.jpg

Defbond
12-09-2008, 05:08
I noticed in the picture that you have what appears to be 2 units combined into 1 card, how do you do stack multiple units?

Agent Miles
12-09-2008, 15:51
As I mentioned, I play with huge units. If that is what you mean.:yes:

Defbond
12-09-2008, 19:12
Yep, I wasnt sure what huge units was, I thought it had something to do with the scale that the units are rendered. Reason I ask is that I'm having alot of trouble with the hordes as WRE, not so much defending my lands from them but not being able to destroy the horde after Ive taken their last settlement.
Now the slavs have invaded and its kinda disheartening as there are huns, lombardis, slavs and goth hordes roaming everywhere and I seem to spend most of my money per turn keeping revolts down and recruiting peasants to keep up with the population growth. I'm playing on M/M and cant make enough money to create enough armies in order to expand past the hordes. I've been following a few of the strategies listed here, including trying to convert everyone to christianity(which led to nothing but a volatile mix of religions in pagan cities) and disbading units/demolishing military buildings. Also somebody wrote that if you leave a settlement to revolt and have destroyed all the military buildings the western rebels that appear will only be equipped with peasants, this is true but a general will also spawn in that settlement and they will have heavy cavalry bodyguards. How are you supposed to take these towns back so quickly if you've disbanded half your army??
I will keep trying to build econ buildings and defend more, until i can get a decent amount of cash to raise a proper army, bridge defense works well but if your really outnumbered with cavalry they can just smash through your defensive line and trying to bottleneck them at the bridge wont work since you will get routes. Right now I have all the original settlements plus a few more that ive managed to capture but still dont have a clear idea on how to deal with hordes, especially after you capture their final settlement and they spawn 4 large armies.

Agent Miles
12-09-2008, 20:07
I did this and my empire was under control from the first turn without even one riot. First go through and eliminate all of your military buildings except in Italy, Carthage and England. If a settlement is mostly Christian (like Lepcis Magna) then build a Christian church and get rid of the pagan governor. Move the capital to Mesilia. Then go through one by one and lower taxes, or add to the garrison, or queue up as many peasants as it takes to get a blue face for each settlement. Send Spurius Flavius to Carnuntum. I think that Salona and Avaricum still were red, but had no riots and were under control by the beginning of the second turn. Eliminate most of your navy and most of the high priced units. If you don’t want to win quickly as I did, then you should fortify the crossings over the Rhine and Danube, and the eastern passes into Italy. If you are good at fighting your own battles, then put an army on a bridge or ford in the path of a horde. It's like a meat grinder. I slaughtered five stacks of Huns in two turns with minor losses. I hope this helps.

Defbond
12-10-2008, 17:13
Amazing, moved capital to Masillia and it stopped all the settelments from rebelling, that freed up money to build econ buildings which created enough money to properly fund my armies, crushed two hordes, the huns and the goths after that. The goths horded twice because they had one settlement before i destroyed it and then again after they captured a rebel town. I thought if the faction had the wheel under their banner it meant they were hording and could be eliminated from the game, but i guess they cant have any settlements either because they will "settle in" and horde again after their last town is destroyed. Can anyone clear this up? Anyway thanks for the tips its definatley made this faction alot easier to play.

kuroiya88
06-01-2009, 16:53
I've never tried blitzing, sounds interesting. I get rid of my eastern provinces up to Patavium to serve as a buffer against Vandals and Huns. I use that general with the christian retinue and traits (marcella and splinter of the holy cross) and take him around the empire converting everything which helps public order a lot. I get rid of my expensive troops and by then start making 3000 a turn, which is enough to start building the traders and economic development.

eventually your economy picks up right in time to fight back the huns. it's a more defensive strategy but that's my play style. and I find it a lot more historic than invading constantinope :sweatdrop:

IceWolf
06-09-2009, 20:23
This is the hardest faction that I've played. I started out by setting taxes to low everywhere and disbanding all the foederati cavalry units (useless overpriced bugggers that they are). I built a christian shrine in Lepcis Magna but left the others alone. My empire is mixed pagan/christian. I consolidated the remaining troops into five army groups. Africa, Gaul, England, Italy and Salona. In the first round of revolts I lost most of spain and much of gaul. General Publius sold himself out to the rebels so I lost Cartago Nova as well. I then reqounquered the rebellious provinces, exterminating the populace in all. I managed to expand a bit in central europe and took vicus franki. I built up the army some more. I was making 6-7k per turn when the second round of rebellions hit, including London. I have now retaken the rebellious provinces again. The gallant Nero Flavius managed to reduce the Franks down to a harmless level and kicked the Alemanni out.
The first horde to arrive was the vandals. I've reduced four of their stacks but had two armies decimated by doing it. The Goths took a couple of central european provinces while I killed off one stack before the ERE stabbed me in the back. I had to retake Salona and reform the army of Salona/central Europe. For a long time I kept a full stack standing like a scarecrow along the bridge by Ravenna waiting for the Huns who have yet to show up. The Sarmatians settled into Constantinople. The Octrogoths died and the Slavs have yet to show up. After going negative income during the second round of rebellions I am now generating 6-7k per turn again and am funneling all troops north to fight the vandals. The army of England retook London and is now heading north to fight the celts.
To fight the hordes with HA I make a full stack with 1-2 gemerals, 1-2 Sarmatians, 6 foot archers and the rest commitenses. I whittle away at the HAs with the cavalry and the archers then turn the archers onto the main horde and send in the commitenses to win the battle. Once I've dealt with the vandals I'll head East to take out the Goths, ERE and the Sarmatians, in that order. This has been hard.

Icewolf

G. Septimus
10-15-2009, 14:46
After seeing everything, I could say that
THE EAST IS MUCH BETTER!!!!:furious3:

Quirinus
01-14-2010, 10:46
I finished a WRE campaign on M/M a few days ago. It was.... okay. I enjoyed myself, but it's not something I have a keen desire to revisit, and I abandoned the game after attaining the victory conditions.

In regular RTW games, where the motive is, almost invariably, expansion and conquest. Even somewhat large factions like the Seleucids follow this basic modus operandi. These games tend to still challenge me, as I am naturally cautious and inclined to turtle. So sometimes factions which have grown too strong may still give me a nasty surprise and send me scrambling. This style of play, however, suits the WRE to a tee. The WRE starts with the most territories by far -some 20-30 of the most advanced cities. So to dominate the campaign one basically needs to consolidate the empire, build up, and withstand the barbarian invasions. If you're not too badly-mauled after the Huns, etc, you basically win by overwhelming control of the campaign map.

Which is exactly what happened to me. I blitzed the Alemanni and Saxons early on and wiped them out. At a later date I sacked the Frankish capital while it was lightly defended. Avaricum and Salmentica (sp?) rebelled, and many other settlements were always hovering around 70-80% public order, but otherwise the WRE rebels were not as large an issue as I expected. The Huns went straight for the jugular with their thrust to Italia, but I camped a hastily recruited small army of comitanses on the bridge northeast of Ravenna and held them there for a bit. I took huge casualties in my victories, to the tune of 40-50% losses per battle, and there were a few times when the bridge army threatened to rout, but as time went on and reinforcements arrived the Hunnic horde was shattered. They continued being nuisances in Italy/Apls for a few more years, but after the intense three turns or so they were no longer a serious threat. The only other horde I encountered was the Goths. I lost a city to them, but they were so badly-decimated by the siege-assault that a few more medium-sized battles with middling results ended them as an effective force.

The ERE declared war by port blockade around the time of the Huns reached Italy, but they never launched any attacks, even towards Salona. toggle_fow tells me that they were probably crippled by the loss of Tarsus, Caesarea and Antioch to the Sassanids. The Franks, Burgundii and Lombardi were too busy slugging it out with one another to pose a serious threat to me, while the Berbers are no match for Roman legions.

I never did fully convert my empire-- Spurius Flavius went on an evangelical spree, starting from Carnatum (sp?) to Ravenna, and then moving north alongthe string of cities starting from Mediolanum all the way up to Colonia Agrippina. And then he got himself killed in a riot in Samarobriva in the process of converting it. >.< I allowed it to rebel and then exterminated the... so-and-so's in retaliation.

My campaign really just sort of fizzled out after breaking the hordes-- neither I nor the veteran defenders of Rome from the Hunnic and Gothic hordes had much trouble with the ERE and the northern barbarians.

gollum
01-18-2010, 20:19
Indeed the WRE, the Sassanids and the ERE can be anticlimactic campaigns... with the vanilla victory conditions.

I set both the Romans at 44 settlements, that encompass from Baetica to Antioch and Armenia and Egypt to Eburacum as victory conditions, and the Sassanids at 34, including Rome, Ravenna, Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinople.

Then it gets far more interesting, and the Romans would do well to convert to Christianity in the long run as it gives the most bonuses in total in terms of happeness and law.

By the way, the Monastery line of buildings provides with many relics of the kind Spurius has in the beginning of the game, and soon one can have more than one preachers spreading the word around.

econ21
01-22-2010, 08:34
I am naturally cautious and inclined to turtle. ... I blitzed the Alemanni and Saxons early on and wiped them out.

I am seeing something of a contradiction there. I agree with your observations, but find the WRE campaign can be fun if you adopt a "no conquest" policy. Don't take any settlements beyond your frontier. That allows the non-horde barbarians to be grow and be a pain. Re-unification can be a long term aim, although again I don't start that fight.

You might want to try the God mod for some extra detail and flavour, although to be honest it makes things even easier for WRE as they soon start to roll in cash.

Quirinus
02-03-2010, 10:25
I am seeing something of a contradiction there.
Maybe 'turtle' isn't quite correct, more like.... 'slow opportunistic expander'? I dunno. I meant I didn't go on a manic expansion spree, but if I see a lightly defended settlement and the faction doesn't horde... :charge:


I agree with your observations, but find the WRE campaign can be fun if you adopt a "no conquest" policy. Don't take any settlements beyond your frontier. That allows the non-horde barbarians to be grow and be a pain. Re-unification can be a long term aim, although again I don't start that fight.
I recently downloaded professorspatula's More Hordes mini-mod, which probably makes the WRE harder to play, as the Alemanni and Saxons now do also horde. Might try staying pagan too the next time... though that might actually make the campaign easier. Hm.


You might want to try the God mod for some extra detail and flavour, although to be honest it makes things even easier for WRE as they soon start to roll in cash.
Where do I get this mod?

gollum
02-16-2010, 20:34
maybe econ was talking about the good mod:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49504

RusaHGPATX1821
03-06-2021, 02:22
I just started my first serious WRE campaign (because I wanted to know the sensation of losing). I took a very unique approach. Here it is.

Turn 1
1. Convert all settlements by force to Christianity (besides Britannia and Syracuse, because you can't afford to lose too much of your empire)
2. Then play around with the taxes in each settlement. If there is a 100% chance of rioting (aka 70% or lower public order) then raise taxes and cancel as much games as much as possible. This way, you will at least get a nice amount of money (for a turn). This is a risk, but you have to be very bold during this campaign. Then have your armies and generals step out of the revolting settlements. Therefore you'll have more strength for more important missions.
3. Use the navy near southern Spain. Take the diplomat in Southern Spain to the Berbers. Fleece them by selling map information for 1-2k denarii.
4. Do the same to the Alemanni with the Diplomat in Ger. Superior
5. Send your third diplomat towards the Eastern Romans in Sirmium.
6. Train a Diplomat in Augusta Trevorum, Aquincum, and Londinium (therefore you can fleece more Barbarian factions before they spend their war chest)
7. Public order in Augusta Trevorum is going to be a problem. Take all Christian Family members close to the settlement and have then stand in the territory. It's tough to hold that settlement, but if you can resist attacking the Alemanni for a few turns, its worth it.
8. Disband all navies but the one between Caralis and Rome, Syracuse and Africa, and the one west of Bordeaux. The others can be broken down.
9. Use the southern fleet to remove the governor from Lepcis Magna and its territory, as you will lose the settlement if you keep him as governor or in the territory. Start moving him towards Syracuse.
10. Speaking of Family members, your faction heir sucks. The governor of Corduba, Aquincum, and Caralis are better choices for faction heir. Either one is fine but there are drawbacks to each.
11. Move the capital to Massilla
12. Move the governor of Caralis to Rome with the fleet between each cities.
13. Move the Emperor to Ravenna to help convert the place.
14. Burn all military infrastructure in Spain to the ground.
15. Burn all military infrastructure in Burdigala, Avaricum, Carnuntum, and Salona to the ground. Potentially Lepcis Magna as well.
16. Do not move a single unit in Britain. Otherwise you risk Eburacum getting bribed. Wait for your diplomat to get trained.
17. Send Marcus the Gambler close to the Alemanni capital with his army.
18. Build ports/economic buildings with the rest of your money in settlements with nothing in the build queue.

(i'll add turn 2 tomorrow)

MarshaldeSaxe
03-11-2021, 04:46
There is another way. Cheat. You can bring up the cheat screen with the ~ key, then type "add_money 99999" repeatedly about 25 times and you will have a few million dinarii to begin with. Then you can move incompatible or very corrupt governors out of their cities. I usually move the Emperor and a couple of others out to form a basis for armies at battle sites I predict will occur. (I usually play the Western Empire, but occasionally the Eastern too.) The second cheat you should use is ~ then "process_cq" "city name" and it will build all the buildings you have in queue. Be careful to see what religion the majority of people have in each city and demolish the opposing religion's temples or churches and replace them with the popular religion's buildings of worship. If you don't use, "process_cq" cheat, your game will take forever since you will only build a few buildings each turn. Since I am 73 years old, I would be dead before I built all the buildings I needed for income, peace and military development. Forget the actual game rules and cheat. It is the only way to really work the chaos into some sense of order. But hey, if you want to destroy your cities in an attempt to survive, be my guest. Be warned though, I am an Italian and descended from the Roman tribe "Aemilia," the first tribe of Rome, and my ancestors, the Aurunci, who lived south of Rome, were given citizenship. So, I will frown upon any lost cities and provinces in the game!

Kanovskiy
10-08-2021, 17:00
bah!

cheating takes away all the fun. I do not recommend it.