Vienna's Grudge: Should Turkey join the EU ?

[Shahed]

Greetings !

This is a poll-rant.

I don't know if you all have read the xenophobia and most defintely Islamophobia about Turkey joining the EU. Such pathetic arguments against a Muslim state as part of the EU. It's incredible that the Austrians even had the gaul to come up with arguments on ethic-religious lines. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. So much for religious and cultural tolerance.

from Vienna:


"Now this has suddenly become a broader debate and people who are not interested in European affairs fear that it will mean foreigners coming to Austria, and not even Christians"

The problem is again one of education. Remarkably the backward Islamic Mustafa knows a hell of great deal more than the highly cultured and educated Jorg in Vienna. Jorg's sitting in his coffee shop complaining about how Turks and "Mosliims" have taken over his country. He does'nt even know where Austria got it's tradition of coffee in the first place! ! He talks about how Mustafa beats his wife but does’nt even know that Turkey gave women the vote in 1930, Spain in 1931 and France not until 1944. Now Jorg’s come up with a novel idea about Turkish religious extremeism and how “they” ("Mosliims") take their religion too seriously, of course he omits that St Paul, writer of several books of the New Testament, and St Nicholas, forerunner of Santa Claus were both born in Turkey.

This minor rant is not intended to offend anyone.

:dizzy2:

[ichi]

This seems rather important, for without Turkey there is no hope for Georgia or some other countries, and less hope for a bridge between Christian Europe and Islamic Middle East.

It also seems important for Turkey, which has made substantial progress recently in their government, possibly due to the prospects of being admitted.

ichi

[Shahed]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

[Meneldil]

Last I heard, only 57% of the Turkish population is willing to join the EU. This number was much higher a few years ago, and this is basically what I would have expected.
Europeans have been saying 'you'll join EEC/EU...someday' for about 50 years. I can understand that Turks are now kinda annoyed with that and there's IMO a feeling of reject of the EU.

Now, as for Turkey itself, I think we should accept it, mainly because it's one of the few non religious Muslim country. I fear that if Turkey doesn't join the EU, it will either become an ultra-nationalistic right wing country or yet another Muslim ultra religious country.
But there's also quite a lot of problem if Turkey join. The low payed jobs, the nationalistic groups (I think they are called the Grey Wolves or something like that), aswell as some of the more extremistic turkish 'customs'.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

Turkey applying to EEC was 1963, IIRC... But nevermind :)

It's true that everyone else came first, Northern europe (UK, Danemark), Southern Europe (Spain, Greece, Portugal), Eastern Europe (the latest addition). And, in my opinion, that was justified. It was probably more urgent for EU to anchor Spain, Greece and Portugal in the beginning of the 80's than Turkey.

It's much underestimated, but there is a good case to make about EU promoting slowly but strongly, democracy in Europe... 40 years ago it was not a done deal.
Turkey is a bit of a case study for this, a case study for soft power. It has been kind of democratic (with a heavy militaristic flavour) since Ataturk, but it has moved in the right direction, thanks to Turks first, but also partly to EU requirements.

I am all in support of Turkey joining EU. It will be good kicking up a bit EU, changing its structure, and giving it a different status, and it will be good for Turkey; securing its secular tradition while keeping military influence at bay.

Also, that might prove to be the biggest change in the Middle East and the real catalsyt for change. Syria and Iran bordering EU are not going to be the same countries at all...

Louis,

[GonZ]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

[L'Impresario]

Actually you can't attribute Austria's "reluctance" (only) to islamophobia, anxiety regarding the future of the EU etc. Neither did the government try to represent the wishes of their people(which are quite negative regarding Turkey's admission). That is merely electioneering, as of late "Turkey" has become a nice populist way of gaining votes and now is an integral part of election campaigns anywhere in Europe.
But as you'd guess, such negotiations are always a trade-off. Austria wanted to promote the Croatia membership(actually she is its most staunch supporter), which should take precedence, and make bargains on the croatian general Ante Gotovina's issue,accused of warcrimes, which is an obstacle to the whole process. So they put up a little show heh

[Duke Malcolm]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

That is my reason for not wanting the Turks to join...

[Komutan]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

Please check the location of Cyprus, one of the EU members. Surely Turkey is geographically more European than Cyprus. Besides, the European part of Turkey is larger than some European countries. Anyway this is a political union; geographical location is not very important.

[Duke Malcolm]

Yes it is, it is the European Union. Cyprus is part of the European Continent, only a wee little pokey bit of Turkey is on the European Continent.

[Kagemusha]

Im against Turkeys EU membership at the moment, but not in General.If EU is going to survive at all we shouldnt take any new members at the moment.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

Yes it is, it is the European Union. Cyprus is part of the European Continent, only a wee little pokey bit of Turkey is on the European Continent.
I know I should not be doing this but sometimes one just can't stand.

Cyprus is not a part of any continent; it's an island.
If at all, it's related to the Anatolian peninsula and present NW Syria (Antiokheia in MTW). It probably broke apart and faded away from mainland in the {fill_in_appropriately} age, if its toponomy matters.
Whether Europe is a continent or a cultural-geographical entity is debatable but irrelevant.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/LocationCyprus.png
:bow:
.

[InsaneApache]

Im against Turkeys EU membership at the moment, but not in General.If EU is going to survive at all we shouldnt take any new members at the moment.

Let 'em in say I. Then the EU can look to the east of the Caucuses.....they could even get China shoehorned in, in a few years time. ~D ..... if Turkey gets in the whole corrupt edifice of the EU will come crashing down as surely as the walls of Jericho after a Glen Miller concert ~D...BTW does this mean that wearing a 'fez' will be outlawed in Yorkshire? ~:eek:

[Kagemusha]

Let 'em in say I. Then the EU can look to the east of the Caucuses.....they could even get China shoehorned in, in a few years time. ~D ..... if Turkey gets in the whole corrupt edifice of the EU will come crashing down as surely as the walls of Jericho after a Glen Miller concert ~D...BTW does this mean that wearing a 'fez' will be outlawed in Yorkshire? ~:eek:

Lol Im sure they try to expand everywhere.Let it grumble then.Then we can start a better union.Scandinavian Union..~;)

[LeftEyeNine]

My new topic left abandoned, then. Let's continue that from here..

1- Taking EU as a geographical union that has exact borders "today" sounds a bit erroneous to me. As Sinan stated, if Cyprus is European because of its location than Turkey is double as much. But don't worry EU has really nearly reached its probable borders. The next expansion towards the East will only occur if Syria, Iraq and Iran leap some light years forward. USA would never leave Iraq to EU's hands though.

2- As being a full candidate at the threshold of EU, Turkey is a lot more hazardous playground for Al Qaeda and other Islamic fanatics from now on. Those freaks gained a lot more "excuses" to deal with Turkey.

3- I don't think we would easily be granted free roamin through EU countries with the membership approval. If I were a European, I'd hesitate opening the gates wide as well. I understand your concern easily.

4- We have been reminded the Ottoman-Austrian conflicts and battles during the latest "Vien defence". That's a general block we face when there is something between Turks and the West. Medieval mentality..

5- I still want to stay out of EU

Meneldil

The nationalistics grous are called "Ulkuculer" ( ="idealists" but not in the western meaning). Grey Wolf is an element of Turkish mythology and is considered holy - at least through nationalists' point of view.

Ulkuculer have already mixed up, there are even a bunch of Kurds among them. They are a rotten society, spreading easily in high schools, some grow as mafia leaders. There are well known Ulkucu mafia men in Turkey.

Although they think they represent Nationalism, they are far away from that. Most of them is uneducated, quick to anger, self-expression disabled, mentally and physically "gangsterized" guys.

[L'Impresario]

Thing is that the Grey Wolves are a paramilitary ultra-right group with quite a few killings, xenophobic anti-anything rallies and other "dirty" activities in their résumé. Whether they are admirers of the mythological "bozkurt", I think that would be a secondary thing when describing them heh

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

4- We have been reminded the Ottoman-Austrian conflicts and battles during the latest "Vien defence". That's a general block we face when there is something between Turks and the West. Medieval mentality..


That one got me smiling... We've all been at wars with each others for centuries. Those times are over.

Overall irrelevant.

Louis,

[lancelot]

Anyway this is a political union; geographical location is not very important.

By that logic then japan could be part of the EU one day then??..if not the whole world?

Im against turkey joining the EU...
Firstly, I dont consider them European (likewise Cyprus and former soviet states) I personally believe its not the geography that should be taken into acount, rather more the culture. Turkey is as traditionally 'European' as Japan is, therefore not what I consider viably European. Lets all stop pretending Turkey is something its not.

Second, What (if any) advantages does Turkey joining hold for the rest of europe? We have enough cheap labour moving back and forth across borders as it is, we dont need anymore... Does this mean we have to bail turkey out if it gets into trouble? Would they (could they?) do the same for us?

[Byzantine Prince]

.

I know I should not be doing this but sometimes one just can't stand.

Cyprus is not a part of any continent; it's an island.
If at all, it's related to the Anatolian peninsula and present NW Syria (Antiokheia in MTW). It probably broke apart and faded away from mainland in the {fill_in_appropriately} age, if its toponomy matters.
Whether Europe is a continent or a cultural-geographical entity is debatable but irrelevant.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/LocationCyprus.png
:bow:
.
Cyprus has been Greek since the beginning of recorded history, therefore it's European(we named Europe after all ~:rolleyes:). Geography doesn't matter, what matters is history, populations, and culture.

[LeftEyeNine]

That one got me smiling... We've all been at wars with each others for centuries. Those times are over.

Overall irrelevant.

Louis,

I don't want to sound as if I'm on such a paranoia as well. I mentioned that being irrelevant too. ~:)

[Sigurd]

therefore it's European(we named Europe after all ~:rolleyes:)
Yes, why is it not called Europa in english? this would nicely fit in with the other continents that have names in the feminine form...

Oh... Tyrkia(Tyrkland) in the EU? ... why not?~:cheers:

[King Henry V]

@Sinan:
The Austrains have coffee because they pwned you in 1683 at the gates of Vienna (with the help of the Holy Alliance). I am of course, sure that thousands of lives lost is a small price to pay for some coffee.:dizzy2: . You say that Saint Nicholas and Saint Paul were born in Turkey. This is wrong. They were born in Asia Minor, which would not be Turkey before the Turks enslaved/massacred the native Greek populations there.

The reasons I am against Turkish admition are:
It is not ethnically, culturally or geographically European. So it has a little piece of Europe in its territory. So what? Spain has Ceuta. Does that mean it should immediately be given membership of the African Union? And why not admit Israel? I mean, at least half its population is somewhat European. And whilst you're there let's take in Australia, America, Canada, New Zealand. The whole shebang.
Having the EU take in Turkey is like a man who has eaten too much already swallowing a rock. It is too big and too poor. When do you think Turkey will be admitted. 2012? 2015? You are already complaining that you have been waiting too long. Does anyone think that in 10 years Poland, Czeckoslavakia and all these other countries will be fully industrailised, modernised and economically prosperous? What does Turkey have to offer the EU anyway, apart from the sentimental notion "A Muslim country at the 'heart of Europe" and cheap labour, of which it has plenty already?
Finally, the borders which Turkey has with Iran, Iraq and Syria are simply too difficult to police effectively. All those mountains and streams do not make it easy to control. And then what? They can go anywhere in Europe with this idiotic Schengen agreement. A determined terrorist will not find it very hard to slip through and be able to go anywhere they want.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Because Turkey has .2 sq. miles of land (gross underexaggeration, but still) in Europe, it should get to join the EU? No! America has land in Europe. Ramstein Airbase, the graves at Normandy, embassies, etc. Why can't we join the EU? Most of us are European by decent, anyway.

It's preposterous to let Turkey join the EU, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Turks. I like Turks, we have Mouza and LEN, plus all the good food and hot women. But they're simply not a European Nation. Ethnically, they're not European, Culuturally they're not European and even their nation holds somthing like 98% of it's land in Asia minor.

Besides, as an Austrian, I can proudly say that Turkey is not European.

EDIT: King Henry, it was Aetolia back then, a majorly greco-persian area (the western coast and such was Greek, further in it became Persian).

Also, if you guys want to be part of a Union, form the Middle Eastern union or somthing, if you can find any other relativly nice, freedom loving governments (it is my understanding Turkey is one of the best governments in the Middle East to date, I might be wrong though).

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mr Apache, I never realized the possibilities.

I will write to my MP and suggest that he campaign for the immediate entry of China to the E.U. Excellent idea, he'll probably go for it as he's such a PC thug ("oh how glorious, a pacific rim nation at the heart of Europe, won't we be so jolly and multi-cultural then.").

[Duke Malcolm]

Might I ask who your MP is, and of which party?

[LeftEyeNine]

Where we live is a totally strange place : No direction offers anything..

That's why I continuously ask why we have to attend a union.

[BDC]

We need Turkey, Turkey would probably do better with us. So everyone wins. Except the racists, who lose.

Ignoring all the issues the EU has at the moment anyway.

[Sjakihata]

A few notes.

Basically, there are several arguments, put forth by Austria and others, however, upon on closer scrunity they are all invalid, a little list follows:

1) The huge population will be too much for EU, they (turks) will immigrate everywhere into europe (implicit: they will disrubt our normal order of the day).

2) They are moslems, follow the qoran - and are fundamentally different from us.

3) Their economy suck.

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.


These are great for one purpose. To scare. If you as a party put forth these "arguments" you'll scare people. Offer a solution and they'll vote for your party.

1 Now, number one has been disproven a number of time. When Greece, Spain, Poland etc, joined. The mass flux wasnt to be found. Locals remained to rebuild their country and make for themselves a better living.

2 Actually, the common turk is no more moslem, than the common european is christian. And all europeans know that christianity isnt really prominent. You *never* hear religious arguments, and if so, it's a minority party. They are secular, democratic and follow Allah. We are secular, democratic and follow God - Allah and God, as you know, is the same being.

3 True, it's not as developed central european countries, however, other nations have joined the EU with a LOWER BNP than what Turkey currently have, so it's not an argument. And when Turkey joins it will pull up both (turkey and EU) economies, although over a longer stretch of years.

4 Not true entirely. This argument probably holds the most weigth, however, when you look at how we (eu AND us) behave in Iraq - I don't really think we are in a position to point fingers. Of course the human rights have to be sublime, but Turkey isnt going to join tomorrow, but in 15 years. What's being discussed now is just whether to allow them to the negotiations, not joining.


Personally, im PRO Turkey full membership and ANTI eu. I dont want the EU, but now that we have it, let's have as many as possible.

[Komutan]

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.




Actually this argument is pretty weak, because human rights in Turkey improve as Turkey moves closer to EU. So people who are concerned about the human rights in Turkey should support Turkey's membership.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

In Turkey, Human Rights violate you! ~D Sorry, couldn't resist that horrible attempt at a joke from a crossover of the Soviet Russia thread ~D. Continue.

[Sjakihata]

I'll have to laugh. To say Turkey isnt culturally part of Europa is wrong. I mean, if we trace back European culture, when end somewhere around the ancient greeks - I wonder where Turkey is in that context? :book:

oh, and btw, talking geography - how can Turkey (and Greece) for that matter be members of North Atlantic Treaty Organization? You'll have to look at the politics back then, to block the russians from harbour opportunities. To admit Turkey into EU would prevent further spreading of terror - it seems somewhat analogous to me, and it was done before, so it can be done again :)

[Byzantine Prince]

Turkey is an ex-nomad, arabic, northern Iraqi(turkman), culture. Laugh all you want, that doesn't make you right. The only European thing about it is the ultra-nationalist sentiment it has acquired in the last century.


EDIT: Because the Mediterranean is considered to be part of the north atlantic.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

King Malcolm:
I am no longer staying in the U.K. but I did cast a postal vote against a sitting member of the LibDems. Sadly he got re-elected. I have no time for him.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'll have to laugh. To say Turkey isnt culturally part of Europa is wrong. I mean, if we trace back European culture, when end somewhere around the ancient greeks - I wonder where Turkey is in that context? :book:

oh, and btw, talking geography - how can Turkey (and Greece) for that matter be members of North Atlantic Treaty Organization? You'll have to look at the politics back then, to block the russians from harbour opportunities. To admit Turkey into EU would prevent further spreading of terror - it seems somewhat analogous to me, and it was done before, so it can be done again :)
Modern Turkey is populated by Slejuk and Ottoman turks, which massacred the Greek populations, along with all the Christians and Jews.

[Sjakihata]

Turkey is an ex-nomad, arabic, northern Iraqi(turkman), culture. Laugh all you want, that doesn't make you right. The only European thing about it is the ultra-nationalist sentiment it has acquired in the last century.

And it wasnt influenced a bit by the Byzantine Empire? Come on - you're a greek, you have to bash turkey, be objective.

[BDC]

King Malcolm:
I am no longer staying in the U.K. but I did cast a postal vote against a sitting member of the LibDems. Sadly he got re-elected. I have no time for him.
It could be worse. Our corrupt Labour MP was replaced with an inconsistant (possibly liar... who knows, she could be stupid or really smart), Greenpeace-loving, tv-hating Welsh Tory.

So that's progress.

[LeftEyeNine]

Modern Turkey is populated by Slejuk and Ottoman turks, which massacred the Greek populations, along with all the Christians and Jews.

You know, that was some kinda war wasn't it ? I sense another genocide blame here, apologies if I'm wrong.

BP , ~:)

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

a Greenpeace loving Tory?

I live and learn.

does she hate tvs because they are televisions or because they are transvestites?

And to keep this relevant....didn't Turkey apply to join a trading block? If so, does it not make sense for those people who say no to a full membership to be considered in the right: Turkey had not initially applied to the weird E.U. beast that is being built so why claim that is the only way they can join?

[Meneldil]

LEN, the guys we're speaking about are I think called Loups Gris in french (= Grey Wolves)


Geography doesn't matter, what matters is history, populations, and culture

Hence why Turkey deserves a membership. ~:cheers:

[Sjakihata]

didn't Turkey apply to join a trading block? If so, does it not make sense for those people who say no to a full membership to be considered in the right: Turkey had not initially applied to the weird E.U. beast that is being built so why claim that is the only way they can join?

simply because turkey government announced that if the negoations wasnt about full membership, they wouldnt show up.

What they want is full membership - that's why it's being discussed.

[LeftEyeNine]

LEN, the guys we're speaking about are I think called Loups Gris in french (= Grey Wolves)

Sorry that may sound funny but does this expression has anything related with Jean-Paul Grange's L'empire des Loups book ?

"Ulkuculer" are how they are called here, and considering the fact that they are originated from Turkey, "Ulkucu" would be a more accurate word to define them.. Not much important though..:bow:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

just because Erdogan et all want full membership does not mean that it has to be the only option discussed.

[Lazul]

well, not that I give a shit about the geographic thing but Turkey is undemocratic, torture people, and dont admit they have treated armenians and kurds... well, in a very in-humain way.

... but then again i hate the EU

[Meneldil]

Sorry that may sound funny but does this expression has anything related with Jean-Paul Grange's L'empire des Loups book ?

"Ulkuculer" are how they are called here, and considering the fact that they are originated from Turkey, "Ulkucu" would be a more accurate word to define them.. Not much important though..:bow:

Well, that's how they're called in JP Grange's book, but that's also how they're called on french TV. Now, I would not be surprised if some french channels' best source was L'Empire des Loups ~;)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

You know, that was some kinda war wasn't it ? I sense another genocide blame here, apologies if I'm wrong.

BP , ~:)
Nah, you killed em ~:) All in the past though.:balloon2:

[L'Impresario]

"Ulkuculer" are how they are called here, and considering the fact that they are originated from Turkey, "Ulkucu" would be a more accurate word to define them.. Not much important though..

Hmm, no I wouldn't say it 'd be more right terming them this way, as they are an actual and specific group, not a general term for extreme nationalists.
Maybe this site will help some people make certain connections heh
http://www.mhp.org.tr/

Also if you google the grey wolves and a word like "paramilitary";)
here's the first site that pops up:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/story33.html

[Dâriûsh]

Ethnically, they're not European, Culuturally they're not European...

So what is a European ethnicity? :huh:

And culture for that matter?

[LeftEyeNine]

well, not that I give a shit about the geographic thing but Turkey is undemocratic, torture people, and dont admit they have treated armenians and kurds... well, in a very in-humain way.

Lazul, you get the right point. We are all eating human flesh over here. Especially if you are an Armenian Christian, we'll rip you into pieces in minutes. You stand no chance..

Ok, the next program about Turkey 24/7 is a fatality show named "Midnight Express Rails Embedded Under Your House, You Dirty Jew".. Happy fairy-taling..


Nah, you killed em All in the past though.

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..~:) :balloon2:


Hmm, no I wouldn't say it 'd be more right terming them this way, as they are an actual and specific group, not a general term for extreme nationalists.
Maybe this site will help some people make certain connections heh
http://www.mhp.org.tr/

Also if you google the grey wolves and a word like "paramilitary";)
here's the first site that pops up:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/story33.html

Yes, MHP is the legal political fraction that represent them. So Grey Wolves is the term used for them abroad. I see..

[Byzantine Prince]

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..~:) :balloon2:
You have not been penalized for that crime. That's the difference.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

LEN,
it's also been proven that Europeans tend to prefer Armenian Christians to European Jews.

Actually that was a joke in very bad taste so I'm going to not put a smiley with it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Under which definition is Turkey part of Europe?

[Sjakihata]

under every possible definition, geographical, cultural, political, economical, etc

[Strike For The South]

Turkey is not europe culturlely or geographicly they are a stepping stone for terrorists there economy isnt the best but the EU is an immoral commie organzation trying to squeeze the last hope for a good moral America so join it just might give us enough time to unleash the master plan~:cool:

[AntiochusIII]

I wouldn't really have an opinion around (who am I? Turkish? No. Citizen of an EU member? No. So why the hell am I interfering?) but I really see racist comments flying around in this thread. I can't believe there's still much anti-Turkish sentiment around, though it looks as if that's the works of the politicians seeking to divert the attention of the masses...hmm...

I inquire that some of you should reflect on your own "justifications" in this thread to see if you're just being a hypocrite, or a racist, for that matter.

Edit: Strange that American Unilateralism (okay, NATIONALISM! To be honest...) finds its way into a Turkey-EU thread.

[Sjakihata]

he EU is an immoral commie organzation
if euro union is communist to you, what then, is america?

[Strike For The South]

if euro union is communist to you, what then, is america?

The last hope for morality my friend~:cool:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..~:) :balloon2:
Germans are still ethnically european. Plus, you can make the same argument you did.

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Russian and Polish jews, we were at war!"

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Greek and Armenian Christians, we were at war!"

See a differance? Neither do I. Oh, and may I add that Germany now has one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe (I know, I can't figure it out either, esp. when Poland has like, the lowest.) I don't see too many Greeks in Turkey, do you?

Also, BP beat me to it, thanks mate ~:).

Under the same justifications that would allow Israel or Egypt into the European Union, or even the US, Canada, or Mexico. It's preposturous.

As I said, I have nothing against Turks, I like Turks. But they aren't European.

[Sjakihata]

The last hope for morality my friend~:cool:

and what's morality?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

and what's morality?
Somthing you don't have.

[LeftEyeNine]

You have not been penalized for that crime. That's the difference.

Admiral Bristol and Ismet Inonu had some very frequent series of telegrams just after the foundation of Turkish republic. The relations between USA and Turkey were getting stiffer because of some issues. One of them was the arrest of an American guy called Adamapoulos and the shutdown of an American college without giving the opportunity to the guy and the administrators of the college to prepare a defense.

Bristol said that it was a fundamental of democracy to give the accused chance of defense. No matter whether the guy or the college administration were absolutely guilty, they should have been allowed to defend.

Look at the Armenian Issue and the capricious mentality we are facing right now.

Turkey is being insisted to accept Armenian Issue in a way to compensate an imaginary genocide. I guess you may remember some numbers from my topic about Armenian Issue.

Whatever you present or prove , some people believe what they want to. And BP, you have a veteran place among them.. You get me once more again ~:)

[Sjakihata]

Somthing you don't have.

you as in me? or europa? and btw, it's not a definition. How can you claim to be something, that you cannot even define?

[Strike For The South]

I can Moralty-Concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct

Before this gets derailed im starting a new thread come all

[Sjakihata]

all right, sorry if I hijacked the topic or anything, I just felt it was relevant.

[LeftEyeNine]

Germans are still ethnically european. Plus, you can make the same argument you did.

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Russian and Polish jews, we were at war!"

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Greek and Armenian Christians, we were at war!"

See a differance? Neither do I. Oh, and may I add that Germany now has one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe (I know, I can't figure it out either, esp. when Poland has like, the lowest.) I don't see too many Greeks in Turkey, do you?

Turks are not ethnically European. I never would like to. Everyone is happy with their genetic heritage. No problem or doubt about it my friend. :balloon2: I'm not a supporter of Turkey into EU stuff. So I'm not bothered how much European we are in any terms.

So you get your point right next to mine. We agree on another point as well. War is war. I do not want to repeat the whole Armenian stuff again here. I had already debated it in my topic a couple of months ago. Their demolition (in smaller numbers than claimed, not the one as exagerrated) was an act of revenge in which even Kurdish commanders participated in.

Greeks are welcome. Greece is a whole broad country where Greeks can accept as a motherland. But Israel is still striving to solidize its place over that tiny bit of land. Comparind the lifestyle and the history of Greeks and Jews is like comparing the apple and pear. Merchantalistic Jews live everywhere, do their living wherever they earn money. That's their profession. But being a Greek has a more racial root as you know. And their lifestyle is definitely not the same as the Jewish. In fact Jews are the ones that have distinct characteristics compared to other societies whether racial or religious.

Greeks abandoned the Minor Asia long ago. The latest intensity of Greek population was in Izmir (Smyrna). After the Independence War, they are gone as well. It doesn't mean that there are hot Rumor Greek-originated girls around. They're everywhere here ~:cool:

Do you really think that Greeks get shot, mugged or something when they visit or decide to stay in Turkey ? Too many imagination covering your eyes like dried mud.


Under the same justifications that would allow Israel or Egypt into the European Union, or even the US, Canada, or Mexico. It's preposturous.

As I said, I have nothing against Turks, I like Turks. But they aren't European.

For the third time we agree, KoA.~;)

Good predicitons, EU would like to target these countries after they "digest" Turkey.

No, no. We are not European. And ever will it be. However EU union is not a European union literally. Look at how the world is polarizing once again. It's not about being European anymore, you shall see.

[Strike For The South]

all right, sorry if I hijacked the topic or anything, I just felt it was relevant.

It was but to be disscused somewhere else

[Kralizec]

Rejecting Turkey because they're not in Europe is ridiculous because "Europe" is an arbitrarily designated area on the Eurasian continent. Yes that's right, Europe and Asia are a single landmass. Turkey just happens to be mostly on the other side of a puddle called the Black Sea.

Like I said in the other thread, I'd tell Turkey to recognise Cyprus as a sovereign nation before they can join the EU.

[GonZ]

I still stand by my previous point.

That part of Turkey west of the Bosphorus would appear to be in Eurupe. That part on the East would appear to be in Asia.

For the record again - I am not anti Turk. Far from it I respect Turkey and their attempts at a secular state in general.

I am anti EU though... and the Turkey/EU issue is doing nothing to change that

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Turks are not ethnically European. I never would like to. Everyone is happy with their genetic heritage. No problem or doubt about it my friend. :balloon2: I'm not a supporter of Turkey into EU stuff. So I'm not bothered how much European we are in any terms.

So you get your point right next to mine. We agree on another point as well. War is war. I do not want to repeat the whole Armenian stuff again here. I had already debated it in my topic a couple of months ago. Their demolition (in smaller numbers than claimed, not the one as exagerrated) was an act of revenge in which even Kurdish commanders participated in.

Greeks are welcome. Greece is a whole broad country where Greeks can accept as a motherland. But Israel is still striving to solidize its place over that tiny bit of land. Comparind the lifestyle and the history of Greeks and Jews is like comparing the apple and pear. Merchantalistic Jews live everywhere, do their living wherever they earn money. That's their profession. But being a Greek has a more racial root as you know. And their lifestyle is definitely not the same as the Jewish. In fact Jews are the ones that have distinct characteristics compared to other societies whether racial or religious.

Greeks abandoned the Minor Asia long ago. The latest intensity of Greek population was in Izmir (Smyrna). After the Independence War, they are gone as well. It doesn't mean that there are hot Rumor Greek-originated girls around. They're everywhere here ~:cool:

Do you really think that Greeks get shot, mugged or something when they visit or decide to stay in Turkey ? Too many imagination covering your eyes like dried mud.



For the third time we agree, KoA.~;)

Good predicitons, EU would like to target these countries after they "digest" Turkey.

No, no. We are not European. And ever will it be. However EU union is not a European union literally. Look at how the world is polarizing once again. It's not about being European anymore, you shall see.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you, you seem to have *Semi*changed my mind, but I doubt the EU would ever want America in it, esp. since their leaders hate America with a passion. Esp. Chirac.~:cheers:

[Azi Tohak]

I never even thought about this. But I'm curious why it is a question in the first place.

Azi

[Tribesman]

Should resolving the partition of Cyprus be a precondition for Turkeys admittance ?

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, I'm not going to argue with you, you seem to have *Semi*changed my mind, but I doubt the EU would ever want America in it, esp. since their leaders hate America with a passion. Esp. Chirac.~:cheers:

USA has always its own leadership. That's what pushes USA further. USA needs rivals to be better. So, Chirac will feel comfortable until he retires..

~:cheers:

[Divinus Arma]

Isn't this the same Country that Dâriûsh lived in?

He told me he watched some religious police beat up a guy or something...

*slinks away to find thread*

edit :

If you had seem them beat a guy half to death for being a fortune teller, you wouldn’t be laughing.

from:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54918&page=2

[LeftEyeNine]

No, not.. Dariush lives in an Islamic regime country, I think.

We don't have any religious policemen or any officer that has authority to judge or act throguh Islamic power. Turkey is a secular Islamic country.

I'm really surprised at that DA, don't get me wrong, my expression has nothing to do with you personally but that shows a tidbit of what we'll be dealing with in general during this "digestion".

[Divinus Arma]

No, not.. Dariush lives in an Islamic regime country, I think.

We don't have any religious policemen or any officer that has authority to judge or act throguh Islamic power. Turkey is a secular Islamic country.

I'm really surprised at that DA, don't get me wrong, my expression has nothing to do with you personally but that shows a tidbit of what we'll be dealing with in general during this "digestion".

I think that we westerners have a reasonable paranoia when it comes to the spread of Islamic influence. With the instability of the middle east and the violent extremism of some muslims groups, westerners are simply afraid.

This is reasonable. It is justified. Certainly most of us have the understanding that not all Muslims are anti-west. However, institutionalized hatred through madrasas and middle eastern government compensation to suicide/homicide bombers' families all instill a tendency to err on the side of caution when dealing with large populations of muslims.

[Meneldil]

Strike for the South, Kaiser of Arabia, if you have nothing else to do than some pointless europeans bashing, please refrain from posting..


Well, I'm not going to argue with you, you seem to have *Semi*changed my mind, but I doubt the EU would ever want America in it, esp. since their leaders hate America with a passion. Esp. Chirac.

Turkey is probably culturaly more similar to many EU countries than the US would ever been...


Like I said in the other thread, I'd tell Turkey to recognise Cyprus as a sovereign nation before they can join the EU.

Agreed, I wonder how a country may join an international organisation while it doesn't recognise another member of this organisation.

[Komutan]

Should resolving the partition of Cyprus be a precondition for Turkeys admittance ?

It is already so. This is going to be the main problem in the admittance process. In my opinion, if the solution is going to be something the Turks dont want(ie. recognizing government of Cyprus as the legal owner of the whole island), Turkey should not accept it before the moment of her getting a full membership.

[Zalmoxis]

Georgia's not part of Europe, while Turkey is only partly in Europe. Turkey should be allowed to join.

[InsaneApache]

Interesting to hear the comments about Cyprus and how Turkey is seen as the aggressor. Now I am old enough to remember watching the Turkish invasion of the northern end of the island of Cyprus on the telly. If I recall correctly it was in response to a coup staged by the Colonels in Athens. Cyprus has never been a part of Greece, it was included with the 'Big Idea' of a unified Greek culture that was abandoned long ago. Cyprus was/is, roughley speaking, 60% ethnic Greek and 40% ethnic Turk. Interesting then that the Turkish paratroopers stopped when the had secured 40% of the island(lets face it they could have taken the whole lot if they'd been so inclined)

http://www.regiments.org/wars/20thcent/55cyprus.htm

Now it seems to me that the Turkish government of the day acted with great restraint and propriety.

[King Henry V]

Greeks abandoned the Minor Asia long ago. The latest intensity of Greek population was in Izmir (Smyrna). After the Independence War, they are gone as well.

Hmmm...I wonder why they did that....

[King Henry V]

under every possible definition, geographical, cultural, political, economical, etc
Could you perhaps explain this statement? It perplexes me enormously.

[Tribesman]

Interesting to hear the comments about Cyprus and how Turkey is seen as the aggressor.
They INVADED , they were condemned as the AGGRESSOR , they renewed the fighting during the supposed ceasefire , they unillaterally declared the independance of the North , no one recognised this turkish claim , so that is why they are seen as the aggressor .

[Adrian II]

Whether Europe is a continent or a cultural-geographical entity is debatable but irrelevant.On the mark as usual, Mouzafphaerre (you should break out of your self-imposed Backroom exile more often). This whole enlargement debate is not about who we were or who we are, but about who we want to be. I think the Turkish Prime Minister hit the right chord when he called on the EU not to remain a ' Christian Club'.

I vote 'Yes, provided that...'
In order to become a full-fledged member Turkey will have to clean up its act by fighting corruption, subduing the military, ending prisoner abuse, etcetera - and the EU should end its obsession with geographical and religious 'borders' and find ways to help Turkey sustain its fast economic growth and political progress.
:bow:

[Geoffrey S]

'Yes'
There are things that need sorting out, many already mentioned here: the power of the military, corruption, Europeans coming to terms with Islam as something that can benefit as well as cause trouble, and the like. These are things that the EU can help with. Sure, Turkey needs to do things to be considered a full-fledged member of the EU, but the responsibility to adapt does not lay exclusively across the Bosphorus. Turkey has a lot to give to Europe, both culturally and economically, and the EU can help Turkey in similar ways.

As to whether Turkey can be considered should be let into the EU on a cultural-geographic basis, does this really matter? As Adrian stated so well it's not about what Europe is, but what it can become. Without change the EU merely becomes a fixed group, rather like an inbred family.

Should resolving the partition of Cyprus be a precondition for Turkeys admittance ?
Yes, if only because of the fact that if not even that can be sorted out it doesn't bode well for future issues.

[Shahed]

Isn't this the same Country that Dâriûsh lived in?

He told me he watched some religious police beat up a guy or something...

*slinks away to find thread*

edit :


from:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54918&page=2

That sounds like Iran a few years back.