Black Belt – rank or accessory?

[yesdachi]

I was recently talking with a friend of mine that just reached his black belt ~:cheers: in Aikido, BTW I am an out of practice green belt in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do (Korean karate) about ¾ of the way to a black belt I will never get, he has been diligently studying and has been very active at his dojo and it has taken him about 5-6 years to reach that level. The point of the conversation turned to the way it is so fast and easy to reach a black belt in some of the other martial arts schools like Tae Kwon Do. And how little kids can reach these advanced belts without actually being able to really compete against someone of equal rank but older.

I think that many of the “schools” have become very commercial and have dropped some integrity to gain higher enrolment. I also think it is a joke to have such low criteria for advanced belts that kids can attain them. I know of a 15 year old black belt that had only been training for 3 years. When I met him at a competition I thought he was joking, I actually laughed:embarassed: . He didn’t do too well. I know of a few other examples of black belts that just shouldn’t be but are. On the other hand I also know several people, like my friend, who are wicked good and deserve the rank~:cool: .

Anyone have an opinion of where the martial arts are at today?

[RabidGibbon]

One of my friends is starting up a martial arts school after about 20 years or so of studying, and hes always told me that the whole belt system was invented for commercial reasons. Thats just one opinion I've heard though.

[Ronin]

One of my friends is starting up a martial arts school after about 20 years or so of studying, and hes always told me that the whole belt system was invented for commercial reasons. Thats just one opinion I've heard though.

what was invented for comercial reasons was the belts themselfs i think....the ranking themselfs that are simbolized by the belts have existed for some time.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The cool thing over here now is 8-year old "black belts".

I'm no martial arts expert (not even a n00b, really) but I would have to guess those first-graders aren't going to be very effective fighters.:book:

[Aurelian]

Yesdachi, does your friend study Yoshinkan Aikido? I'm from Michigan too, and I used to study Aikido at MSU. I did a quick Google search, and it looks like there is a Yoshinkan dojo in Grand Rapids. Just curious.

Your friend's comments on black belts sound very familiar. Getting a black belt in Aikido can easily take 10 years, so 5 to 6 means he applied himself.

There are a lot of schools that give black belts after a couple of years, and Aikido guys like to rip on them for it. However, Tae Kwon Do and other linear hard martial arts styles are a lot simpler to learn, so two years might be reasonable if someone studied diligently.

In the martial arts styles I've studied, belts are just a way of noting that you've successfully completed a particular level of a teacher's lesson plan. They don't really have much to do with fighting skill.

[Aurelian]

Oh, by the way, Aikido at MSU is now called "Yoshokai". It used to be called Yoshinkai and/or Yoshinkan. The change is just nominal. The same instructor has been teaching there for 40 years.

Edit - Make that 32 years. MSU started Aikido in 1973. Sensei Helton has been teaching for approx. 40 years.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

An 8-year old, no matter how skilled is a limited threat. No matter what the training, F=ma, so there are limitations. That said, the discipline and training, if kept up, will let the 8-year old "rock" in 10 years or so.

As to the "value" of the belt, it would depend on the dojo. If they emphasize martial arts form and dance, then you have a wonderfully atheletic art form. My son's TKD dojo, which also teaches Krav Maga, has a batch of instructors who usually high rank in their national sparring championships while doing decently -- but not great -- in the other subsets. If they would only take the training outside of the dojo (few of life's encounters happen on level matted floors with plenty of room to move), I'd be really happy.

Yes it is, in a way, an art form. Strip all that away, however, and its about defeating an opponent in physical combat -- not all dojos remember that any more.

Seamus

[Don Corleone]

All belts are white. They turn black due to years of sweat and blood being leached into them. :bow:

[BDC]

All belts are accessories. A person without any belt at all but with a gun is going to be more than a match for any black belt.

[GoreBag]

, BTW I am an out of practice green belt in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do (Korean karate)

I thought Tan Soo Do was a system developed by Bruce Lee.

Well, I started taking Karate from a local school (a blend of Shotokan and Shito-Ryu styles) when I was 8 and earned my "black belt" at the age of 12. The school provided different classes for youth and adults, and the "black belt" earned by youth was lesser than the adult "black belt". Youth who wished to "upgrade" their rank to a "true black belt" would need to go through the same grading process as an adult would, as the standard was much lower for the young'uns.

That being said, I was on par with the adults in the class when I was 10. Whether this is me being above par or the adults being sub-par is up for debate.

The issue is that, like all things nowadays, martial arts are a business. Not all people can be convinced that they still want to be forced to better themselves through work and discipline and still pay for it. Hell, the military does the same thing, and they pay you!

So, with the commercialism of martial arts, one can expect that there is a considerable drop in integrity, but this varies wildly by the locale.

My former dojo, for example, has turned almost completely into a commercial setup, my "black belt" grading being the last that had taken place with the old system. Most of the instructors' time is now taken up with keeping the baby boomers in shape by using pseudo-karate and dance music. The man who owns the school has expanded into another dojo used exclusively for these workouts, owns a health food bar, and even had a TV show at one point. I'm not interested in returning to pursue my training further.

As an aside, is there a weapon art that could be recommended? I'm looking for something more Western...

[Geoffrey S]

It really depends where you end up; there are an awful lot of second-rate schools where what you attain doesn't mean a thing, mainly aimed at keeping people in shape rather than truely teaching a martial art. These kind of sports, more than most, really require trying out various places carefully before settling for the what seems to be the best one.

[yesdachi]

Yesdachi, does your friend study Yoshinkan Aikido? I'm from Michigan too, and I used to study Aikido at MSU. I did a quick Google search, and it looks like there is a Yoshinkan dojo in Grand Rapids. Just curious.

Your friend's comments on black belts sound very familiar. Getting a black belt in Aikido can easily take 10 years, so 5 to 6 means he applied himself.
I’m not sure of the Yoshinkan part, but here (http://toyodacenter.com/index.htm) is the dojo’s website. :bow:

One of the reasons he progressed as fast as he did is because he was a Deshi (live in student) at his dojo for a year.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

1 year I took Karate I advanced 1 belt.

[yesdachi]

I thought Tan Soo Do was a system developed by Bruce Lee.
Here’s a little info on Bruce’s Style…


However, it would not be until his arrival in the United States that he would come to see the limitations of classic Wing Chun. Lee began the process of creating his own style, which he taught at his school - which he later named the Lee Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. At the time, his style Tao of Chinese Gung Fu was mostly Wing Chun Gung Fu blended with techniques from northern and southern gung fu styles. After studying and becoming dissatisfied with existing classical schools of martial arts, he later modified this style, which was mostly Wing Chun, with Western Boxing and Western Fencing and named it Jun Fan Gung Fu. However, over time this style began to expand, incorporating elements from Muay Thai, Indo-Malay Silat, Panantukan, Sikaran, Bando, Catch Wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, and several other arts. It would only be much later that he would come to describe his style as Jeet Kune Do (Way of the Intercepting Fist) or JKD…
Tan Soo Do is an aggressive fighting style and like a lot of Korean stuff has borrowed many good ideas from other cultures but not nearly as many as Jeet Kune Do, the king of eclectic styles.~D

[solypsist]

Tae Kwon Do > other forms. When I see a black belt, I know I'm in for trouble with someone who knows TKD.

I've done a few, and found TKD the most effective in combat situations (fighting off those girls!) than others.

I'm just being biased, I'm sure there are plenty of other good fighting forms where ranking matters.

[Xiahou]

My father is a black belt in TKD and former instructor- I agree with what he said on belts. It's what you know that'll save you in a fight, not what color your belt is.

[Spetulhu]

It's what you know that'll save you in a fight, not what color your belt is.

It also helps if you're not drunk as a pig when someone decides to beat you up.
:barrel:

[JimBob]

Damn Don, one of my sensei's favorite things to tell us you beat me too it. Always wondered where the green came from.

[Kraxis]

Well, the entire point of the belts are of course commercial, but the system they replace is quite similar. But one should remember that most black belts are merely an indication that the real training is about to begin, the dan is the true measure of a man's qualities as a martial artist in his range (those mixers like Bruce Lee are quite hard to determine).

So think of the belts as kindergarten and hometutoring before school, but the dan is the school itself.

[bmolsson]

Black belt in Akido ?? Does that mean he is going to head the re-make of Submerged ?? ~;)

[yesdachi]

You guys are echoing a comment my friend made…
Now that I am done training I can really start learning!

There does have to be a ranking system of some kind and belts are as good as any but I just think it is lame that some schools only take a couple years to make it to black and others take double the time. I know Aikido isn’t karate, aikido is more difficult to learn IMO so the time frame isn’t a fair comparison. But when comparing similar styles I don’t know if I would feel ripped off for being forced to train longer than others or cheated because I didn’t get as comprehensive an education.~:confused:

One of the other things that I find interesting, if not a bit frustrating is the fact that there is rarely any cross style sparing. I remember sparing with a guy who studied an Okinawan style and commenting to my instructor that he didn’t fight the “right way”:dizzy2: . He commented back that neither would a mugger! That turned a light on in the noggin:idea: . Sparing is where all the skill really came from, for me at least, not the ridicules katas and such.

I guess it depends a lot on the individual and how much they apply themselves but it would be nice to know that your instructor wasn’t just looking for a paycheck.:bow:

[Navaros]

All belts are accessories. A person without any belt at all but with a gun is going to be more than a match for any black belt.

this is true, but most people don't go around carrying guns so it therefore stands to reason that in most hostile situations, having a black belt will come in handy

as a kid i took Karate and at my dojo the kids were segregated into a junior class and everyone else was in the normal class. the junior class went up to age 12 or something like that.

those belts were much easier to get than normal black belts, but they were only attainable within a certain age range

i don't see a problem with this kind of system. kids and adults are not the same, hence no need to treat them the same

in my dojo the junior black belt did mean something because there was a 12 year old kid with a junior black belt who ended up beating the crap out of a much-larger 14 - 15 year old regular orange belt

although the junior black belt guy is the one who picked the fight. and i knew him to be a jerk too because sometimes he'd train me a bit and he'd always call me "wimp" and everything when he was training me. so i guess at my dojo the kids' instructors were really great at teaching skill to the kids but not giving them a proper attitude~D

[Kekvit Irae]

I gained my Black Belt many years ago in Tae Kwon Do. I tried Karate, but it just wasnt for me (though the added weapons training on bo and the sai were added bonuses), and the Ninjistu dojo was an hours drive from where we lived, so I didnt bother learning that (as cool as it may have been back then).
As for the value of the belt, I'll echo what has already been said: It's not the color of the belt, it's the knowledge of the fighter.

[Edex]

Good question. Of course, martial arts (as everything else) is commercialized now, but I believe it also depends very much on school, teacher and also everyons attitude.I practice aikido (aikikai) and we have 6 levels under the black belt for adults and 4 extra levels for kids. So when the kids complete all 4 levels and reach 16 years, they automatically get 6th (lowest) adult level. But belt as itself has main purpouse - to hold the pants :)

[Fragony]

Tried it 2 times but I suck. It is pretty hard to get it.

[English assassin]

although the junior black belt guy is the one who picked the fight. and i knew him to be a jerk too because sometimes he'd train me a bit and he'd always call me "wimp" and everything when he was training me. so i guess at my dojo the kids' instructors were really great at teaching skill to the kids but not giving them a proper attitude

Which is worse than no training at all IMHO

I took Karate while I was a teenager. It took about 5 years to make black belt. I guess it depends on the sensei, but ours had the attitude than most of the coloured belts were really just to give you a sense of progress, but once you got to the one below black (brown IIRC) that was when you REALLY had to work, and you didn't get put forward for the 1st dan grading until he said you were ready. So you could spend three years getting to brown grading 2-3 times a year and then two years with no grading until you were ready to try for black.

And also no one was in any doubt that black was where it started, not where it ended, as said above.

Seemed a reasonable approach to me.