WOW Scary! Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits [Archive]

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Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 01:44

Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush asked Congress on Tuesday to consider giving him powers to use the military to enforce quarantines in case of an avian influenza epidemic.

He said the military, and perhaps the National Guard, might be needed to take such a role if the feared H5N1 bird flu virus changes enough to cause widespread human infection.

"If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country? And how do you, then, enforce a quarantine?" Bush asked at a news conference.

"It's one thing to shut down airplanes. It's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine?" Bush added.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move. So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

Bird flu has killed more than 60 people in four Asian nations since late 2003 and has been found in birds in Russia and Europe.

Experts fear that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which appears to be highly fatal when it infects people, will develop the ability to pass easily from person to person and would cause a pandemic that would kill millions.

"And I think the president ought to have all ... assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant," Bush said.

He noted that some governors may object to the federal government commandeering the National Guard, which is under state command in most circumstances.

FULL ARTICLE (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051004/2005-10-04T185015Z_01_DIT460356_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-BUSH-BIRDFLU-DC.html)

Xiahou

10-05-2005, 01:49

He also thinks the Pentagon should take the lead in domestic disaster response. I agree, it's a little scary.

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 01:57

The primary feature of this that I find disturbing is Bush's apparent line of thought on the state of the military-civilian relationship.

Proletariat

10-05-2005, 02:01

Reason #1,000,567,785 why I want my m(&^#$ f&*@&^% vote back.

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 02:01

I find it scary because I just heard this not long ago:

Bush considers changes to Posse Comitatus Act
Both right and left wary of giving domestic police power to military
By STEWART M. POWELL
Copyright 2005 Hearst News Service

WASHINGTON - The law is from a bygone era, it has a Latin name and it's never led to a prosecution, much less a conviction.

...

Law up for review

Bush signaled that the law was up for review when he said in a nationally televised address from New Orleans on Sept. 15 that the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina showed "a challenge on this scale requires greater federal authority and a broader role for the armed forces."

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan later said revision or repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act was an issue that "needs to be looked at" by Congress and the administration, adding that officials are in the "early planning of discussing it."

Some of the initial impetus for changing the law stemmed from a public outcry over some hurricane victims in New Orleans exploiting the chaos to loot appliance outlets, jewelry shops and clothing stores before police, National Guard troops or active duty soldiers reached flooded areas.

Amid more recent indications that initial reports of lawlessness were exaggerated, concerns over giving federal troops wider authority have moved to center stage.

FULL ARTICLE (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/3377358)

Leet Eriksson

10-05-2005, 02:04

Scary but necessary, i mean you wouldn't want the flu to spread would you?

Quarantine seems like the only option, and the only effective way of quarantine is to close said area, and who provides the most effective way to enforce it other than the military?

Proletariat

10-05-2005, 02:20

I figured we'd have common ground at some point.

Strike For The South

10-05-2005, 02:22

seccison is looking better every day:book:

Reverend Joe

10-05-2005, 02:26

Nixonic facism, all the way. I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 02:43

Quarantine seems like the only option, and the only effective way of quarantine is to close said area, and who provides the most effective way to enforce it other than the military?

State-activated national guards who:

(a) Have a different set of rules than when federalized and
(b) For whom posse comitatus doesn't apply. Making the debate moot.

So there. This is the very kind of thing that they exist for! State-activated; not federally-activated.

Friggin federal power expansion!!!!:furious3: :furious3:

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 02:47

Interesting comments from the Cato Institute on Executive Power Expansion:

Executive Orders and National Emergencies:
How Presidents Have Come to "Run the
Country" by Usurping Legislative Power
by William J. Olson and Alan Woll

William J. Olson heads a McLean, Virginia, law firm (www.wjopc.com) that focuses on constitutional, administrative, and civil litigation. Alan Woll is an attorney in Blevins, Arkansas (akewoll@arkansas.net).

Edit: Full Article (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-358es.html)(Scroll Down the page to view)

Executive Summary

During the recent presidential scandals, concluding with the impeachment of President Clinton, many people were heard to say that the investigations should end so that the president could get back to "the business of running the country." Under a constitution dedicated to individual liberty and limited government—which divides, separates, and limits power—how did we get to a point where so many Americans think of government as embodied in the president and then liken him to a man running a business?

The answer rests in part with the growth of presidential rule through executive orders and national emergencies. Unfortunately, the Constitution defines presidential powers very generally; and nowhere does it define, much less limit, the power of a president to rule by executive order—except by reference to that general language and the larger structure and function of the Constitution. The issue is especially acute when presidents use executive orders to legislate, for then they usurp the powers of Congress or the states, raising fundamental concerns about the separation and division of powers.

The problem of presidential usurpation of legislative power has been with us from the beginning, but it has grown exponentially with the expansion of government in the 20th century. In enacting program after program, Congress has delegated more and more power to the executive branch. Thus, Congress has not only failed to check but has actually abetted the expansion of presidential power. And the courts have been all but absent in restraining presidential lawmaking.

Kaiser of Arabia

10-05-2005, 02:47

Reason #1,000,567,785 why I want my m(&^#$ f&*@&^% vote back.
Kerry wouldn't ask for it though, he'd take it. ****ing Maoist that he is.

Proletariat

10-05-2005, 02:47

I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

And now I'm a hard core Bushite. Nice to know.

Kaiser of Arabia

10-05-2005, 02:53

I say we get the entire US to do a write in for Bismarck next election. We'd have a corpse!

Red Harvest

10-05-2005, 03:10

I'm not sure what he's got in mind for bird flu, but we do have big problems at the moment with the restrictions on Federal response to disasters. Unfortunately, trust in the Federal govt. is at a low.

You've got to be a bit off to think state forces are somehow less capable of abusing power than Federal ones. (Ditto for local.) History proves the opposite to be the case. One method of preventing state abuse of power in the past has been to Federalize their Guard... Secession would be a good example of state abuse of its citizens driven to the extremis. Of course, secesssion died of a theory.

Honestly, I've about given up on my countrymen getting a clue on how to make government actually work for them. When I'm hearing how much we CAN'T do on a regular basis (ironically from the small gov't types who I consider responsible for many of the recent fiascos), it makes me hang my head in shame. I don't want to be any part of this "can't do" society.

I would be happy to let my countrymen go back to about 1860, if I didn't have to be dragged along with them. I think it would do them some good to get a feel for what it would really mean.

Tribesman

10-05-2005, 03:38

bmolsson

10-05-2005, 03:54

The avian flu is not to play with. Actually I think that the military would be able to do a rather substansial contribution in fighting it......

JimBob

10-05-2005, 03:55

People can quarantine themselves, we don't need the damn feds doing it for us. (*%&&

Point 2:
Kerry is a Maoist? Kaiser, you have a history of throwing out names for groups without any basis. Maoist is diffrent from Marxist is diffrent from Trotskyist is diffrent from Socialist is diffrent from Liberal

Strike For The South

10-05-2005, 03:57

I can see how this will end up

1. Flu hits kills 5 million
2. Bush sends troops into urban areas asks for more power
3. Takes weapons away due to looting acroos America
4. Goverment takes away more rights
5. And when we have no rights left Bush is defacto zionst oil-tycoon facsit dictator with no one to stop him

*Strike stars to cry thinking about his future*:embarassed:

Don Corleone

10-05-2005, 04:05

I thought freaking out of conspiracy theories was my job...

If Bush wanted to sieze power and act in an extra-constitutional manner, he certainly doesn't need to create some crazy thing like Avian flu to serve as a ruse. He's got plenty of things the American public are already more afraid of that he could use as his boogeyman.

I am kinda scared over this too, but not because of the political ramifications. Have any of you stopped to ask "How bad is this avian flu if Bush thinks he's going to need the army to keep order when it hits?" What haven't the Chinese told us? ~:eek:

Redleg

10-05-2005, 04:07

Now this is funny - can't wait for the idealogue spouters who don't think to get a hold of this and say President Bush and his adminstration is turning the United States into a Facist State.

By the way its really a new face on old scenerio

http://www.tricare.osd.mil/eenews/downloads/Smallpox.doc

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/aug03/homeland.asp

Pay attention to what is going on - definetly.

Go screaming into the hills because you think the government is about to take a bigger piece - not yet.

Oh by the way - I guess some would be upset with President Bush Sr. when he sent federal troops into Los Angeles to quel the riots. ~:eek:

Kraxis

10-05-2005, 04:09

If he wanted to use the military , then the military would have to be vaccinated . After the miltary , some essential health workers (and of course the politicians and their friends) have recieved the vaccine , will there be any left for people who actually get the disease ?
Since we are dealing with a virus there is a vaccine for those who are not yet infected, but once you are infected you have to deal with it yourself. Had it been a bacteria then it would have been different.
And since the vaccination in this case (I think) is a weakened version of virus it would only weaken those who had it but wasn't affected by it yet.

It would be cold, cynical and not very nice, but what to do that would be better?
History has shown that people are about the worst there are when it comes to epidemicts, for we understand the peril, so we flee. Thus we bring it with us. Most people take the road over hiding in the basement during an epidemic. So much for selfquarantine.
Obviously someone/something has to stand guard to keep it contained.

Tribesman

10-05-2005, 04:11

"How bad is this avian flu if Bush thinks he's going to need the army to keep order when it hits?" What haven't the Chinese told us?
Don , they are saying , don't make comparisons with the Flu pandemic of 1919 , think more along the lines of small pox and native Americans .~:eek:
IF it mutates that is .

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 04:12

Nixonic facism, all the way. I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

Nixon a fascist?!???:dizzy2:

He was a "country club" Republican old-schooler. Brilliant hard-ball politics internationally, but he allowed public opinion to divert an all-out effort in Vietnam and used wage & price controls while expanding the social welfare system nearly as quickly as LBJ. He was anti-communist, but no fascist.

Seamus

By the way, most conservatives who're reconsidering their votes are doing so because they feel Bush isn't taking a staunch enough conservative line.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 04:15

Since we are dealing with a virus there is a vaccine for those who are not yet infected, but once you are infected you have to deal with it yourself. Had it been a bacteria then it would have been different.
And since the vaccination in this case (I think) is a weakened version of virus it would only weaken those who had it but wasn't affected by it yet.

It would be cold, cynical and not very nice, but what to do that would be better?
History has shown that people are about the worst there are when it comes to epidemicts, for we understand the peril, so we flee. Thus we bring it with us. Most people take the road over hiding in the basement during an epidemic. So much for selfquarantine.
Obviously someone/something has to stand guard to keep it contained.

Have you ever read McNeil on the influence of disease on history? Compelling stuff.

Seamus

Redleg

10-05-2005, 04:16

Have you ever read McNeil on the influence of disease on history? Compelling stuff.

Seamus

Read part of it - and yes its an interesting book - lost my copy in a move and have yet to find it - maybe its time to go buy it again and finish reading it.

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 04:23

By the way, most conservatives who're reconsidering their votes are doing so because they feel Bush isn't taking a staunch enough conservative line.

exactly

PanzerJaeger

10-05-2005, 04:26

This is a good idea. After Katrina its obvious in many parts of the country state and local officials are lacking in disaster response compared to the federal government. Of course I am speaking relatively.

Im all for states rights, but this bird flu could be some bad s***, and I would rather have the feds trying to run a quarentine than Kathlene Blanco.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 05:03

Divinus Arma

10-05-2005, 05:08

The U.S., I believe (and perhaps other nations as well) has a need for another uniformed service. The one's we have cover air, land, sea, and katn assault work. We probably need a 5th that is short on artillery but long on MPs, trainers, engineers, doctors, plumbers, carpenters, etc. The other services are for killing people and breaking things in extremis, the new service would handle all the recovery/reconstruction tasks we must do, but for which the armed forces are not perfectly suited.

Seamus

that sounds great and too expensive.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 05:28

that sounds great and too expensive.

Probably so. It just galls me to dull a sword cutting trees. And its not as though the current approach is cheap. I mean, just how many service hours are we racking up on the Sea King turboshafts?

You did, I hope, recognize the katn assault service?~:)

Seamus

Xiahou

10-05-2005, 05:44

Oh by the way - I guess some would be upset with President Bush Sr. when he sent federal troops into Los Angeles to quel the riots. ~:eek:Not really, it was in accordance with the Posse Comitatus and Insurrection Acts from what I saw.

That's just it really. Posse Comitatus allows for federal troops to be used domestically in special circumstances- it's not like it totally bars it from happening, it just sets criteria to help ensure they aren't used wantonly. However, now we have Bush saying that, essentially, we might need to scrap the Act altogether...

Red Harvest

10-05-2005, 06:16

Have any of you stopped to ask "How bad is this avian flu if Bush thinks he's going to need the army to keep order when it hits?" What haven't the Chinese told us? ~:eek:
There is some nasty stuff floating around in Asia. When SARS hit, the Chinese were in heavy denial mode. I was in Singapore during the start of the SARS outbreak, and there was some sort of nasty respiratory bug there, too, but different from SARS. I hadn't seen it in the U.S., but noticed it immediately in Singapore while on mass transit. Within ten days it was hitting me, and one of my Singaporean coworkers ended up in the hospital for a few days. It had arrived in East Texas before I came back home, and it eventually killed several folks suddenly--several young and healthy otherwise. I was able to shake it, but it came back at me two more times over the next year. I had to take antibiotics to clear up the resulting respiratory infections, twice! I hadn't had antibiotics for decades and rarely got sick with anything, so this was a shock. (If I need anything more than a Tylenol, something is seriously wrong.)

Don't count on the CDC for fast action if something like this hits. They seem to be way behind the curve when infectious diseases are in full swing and spreading. I suspect they cover up more than they report--based one what I've seen them do during regional outbreaks of meningitis and West Nile. Where I was living in East Texas had an epidemic of meningitis cases every few years and I had a number of coworkers who got hit by it, and several nearly died. Always according to the CDC, "there was no epidemic" despite the numbers exceeding their epidemic guidelines for the region.

I can't find links to the several year old study now, but the West Nile virus was something like several HUNDRED times more common than what the CDC was (and is) saying. The study differed in testing for WN antibodies in a more general population, rather than suspected infections. The people who were being treated as WN patients had actually developed the full blown encephalitis. Only a very tiny proportion actually needs/seeks hospital care since they don't develop the severe form.

I'm pretty sure I got hit by the standard weaker version of West Nile a few weeks before the West Nile outbreak was recognized in my area. I didn't know anything about West Nile at the time. It was looking back at it later when I looked up West Nile's symptoms that all the puzzle pieces fit: I had a really nasty debilitating headache and general symptoms that suggested meningitis, but without the characteristic stiff neck. Lasted a few days and I got over it without seeing a doctor, although the malaise was a real pain for at least a week. In the week or two prior to getting sick, and for a few weeks after, I had noticed an unusual number of dead birds in the yard. Mosquitoes were not at all uncommon there, but I usually didn't get bitten much, except in this case, where I had taken a "pounding" from the little devils about 5 days earlier while working outside in the early evening. Several other members of my family were outside about the same time and were also bitten. We all got sick within a few days of one another and with the same basic symptoms. If the ever offer me a WN antibody screen, I would like to see if my supposition is correct.

Bartix

10-05-2005, 07:57

And now I'm a hard core Bushite. Nice to know.
Think how soft core Bushites must feel about vote! :rolleyes:

Tachikaze

10-05-2005, 08:27

Funny how Bush is ready to believe in mutating viruses killing millions, but not global warming. Maybe because this hasn't been lobbied by the oil companies.

Any excuse to make federal agencies, bureaus, and task forces. He loves to wield power, doesn't he? I wonder what his stand on states' rights is now. "Don't mess with Texas". I think he wants to catalog, confine, and strip search the entire population.

*cough* police state! *cough*

60 people died in Asia? How many died from lightning strikes in the same period?

I'm not belittling the flu. It could cause a lot of trouble. But people sure do panic easily. Fear is a big motivator here. It got us into Iraq.

Redleg

10-05-2005, 13:30

Redleg

10-05-2005, 13:34

I can't find links to the several year old study now, but the West Nile virus was something like several HUNDRED times more common than what the CDC was (and is) saying. The study differed in testing for WN antibodies in a more general population, rather than suspected infections. The people who were being treated as WN patients had actually developed the full blown encephalitis. Only a very tiny proportion actually needs/seeks hospital care since they don't develop the severe form.

Yep just come to Dallas - we have about 2-5 deaths a year from West Nile virus and many undocumented cases of it. They are consistently spraying nesting and breeding areas to help control it.

I'm pretty sure I got hit by the standard weaker version of West Nile a few weeks before the West Nile outbreak was recognized in my area. I didn't know anything about West Nile at the time. It was looking back at it later when I looked up West Nile's symptoms that all the puzzle pieces fit: I had a really nasty debilitating headache and general symptoms that suggested meningitis, but without the characteristic stiff neck. Lasted a few days and I got over it without seeing a doctor, although the malaise was a real pain for at least a week. In the week or two prior to getting sick, and for a few weeks after, I had noticed an unusual number of dead birds in the yard. Mosquitoes were not at all uncommon there, but I usually didn't get bitten much, except in this case, where I had taken a "pounding" from the little devils about 5 days earlier while working outside in the early evening. Several other members of my family were outside about the same time and were also bitten. We all got sick within a few days of one another and with the same basic symptoms. If the ever offer me a WN antibody screen, I would like to see if my supposition is correct.

It sounds like it - 5 days after getting bite is about the norm I think.

Fragony

10-05-2005, 13:43

I don't see what's so scary about this. Sounds like a good way to get rid of a epidemic, better save then sorry. When controlled there would be also be enough vaccins to help the locals, nobody loses.

Byzantine Prince

10-05-2005, 13:53

WOW Bush is smarter than I thought! ~:eek:

Probably going to be the only thing that might save him in the eyes of history if he indeed needs to pull it off.

@Proleteriat: Nananananana nanana nanana hahahnananana....

The Stranger

10-05-2005, 16:38

wehjooo ~:eek: creapy

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 16:52

You have it in part - its just not organized for such a mission.

The Corps of Engineers.

They would be an excellent starting component -- good reminder.

Seamus

Del Arroyo

10-05-2005, 20:29

Seamus Fermanagh

10-05-2005, 20:35

I think you're absolutely right. I agree 100%. Back when we started this second Iraq war I was scratching my head wondering why we hadn't prepared one of these at that point. The need has since been more than amply demonstrated.

Del:

You could also add examples like: Haiti, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Mid-Atlantic USA post-Isabel, Gulf USA post-Rita, Florida post-Andrew, Mississippi valley post-1998 floods....We need ready brigades of these forces to do some tough work in all sorts of places.

Seamus

solypsist

10-05-2005, 21:15

let's throw some more logs on this police-state fire:

"WASHINGTON - Pentagon intelligence operatives would be allowed to collect information from U.S. citizens without disclosing their status as government spies under legislation approved by the Senate intelligence committee and publicly released this week.

The bill would end a longstanding requirement that military intelligence officers disclose their government ties when approaching an American citizen in the United States -- a law designed to protect Americans from domestic intelligence activities by the Department of Defense.

The provision is one of several sections that would roll back privacy-related protections as part of an effort to improve U.S. intelligence agencies' ability to detect and prevent domestic terrorist plots. Another provision would make it easier for U.S. spy agencies to gain access to sensitive records on U.S. citizens that are held by the government and generally prohibited from being disseminated under privacy laws."

https://registration.mercurynews.com/reg/login.do?url=http://www.mercurynews.com%2Fmld%2Fmercurynews%2Fnews%2Fnation%2F12791474.htm%3Fsource%3Drss%26channel%3Dme rcurynews_nation

i have set up an account to read the news:
lizlizliz@yahoo.com
bugmenot

yesdachi

10-05-2005, 21:54

Read part of it - and yes its an interesting book - lost my copy in a move and have yet to find it - maybe its time to go buy it again and finish reading it.
I got a nickel that says the day you buy it you find your original copy.~;)

I think inquiring into using the military is a smart thing for him to do, better safe than sorry. There is no way people are going to stay in a quarantined area if they are told to. It would be reassuring to know that the military was available to help protect the rest of the US from all the infected idiots trying to run off and get the rest of the country sick. At least he is not asking if Blackwater can do it.:dizzy2:

solypsist

10-05-2005, 22:37

the more opportunities the US military has to fire on its own citizens (and vice versa) the easier it, as a body, can grow comfortable with the idea, and then we all know the slippery slope that leads to.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-05-2005, 22:48

He probably thinks the flu is a country that he now wants to invade...

Shahed

10-06-2005, 00:54

FULL ARTICLE (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051004/2005-10-04T185015Z_01_DIT460356_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-BUSH-BIRDFLU-DC.html)

Well Bush has a lot of support from the military industrial complex, so he's bound to heighten their importance.

Papewaio

10-06-2005, 07:22

So which is going to be used to explain a new strain of virus:

A) Intelligent Design... god did it.

B) Evolution... roll the dice enough times and the bank takes all.

Xiahou

10-06-2005, 08:03

So which is going to be used to explain a new strain of virus:

A) Intelligent Design... god did it.

B) Evolution... roll the dice enough times and the bank takes all.
I'd have to say... maybe. ~;)

Seamus Fermanagh

10-06-2005, 14:42

So which is going to be used to explain a new strain of virus:

A) Intelligent Design... god did it.

B) Evolution... roll the dice enough times and the bank takes all.

You thread-jacking scamp!!!! Did you have fun in primary school baiting your classmates into fighting one another? You might as well pass out sparklers to the work-crew at a refinery!!!~;)

By the way, A subsumes B as the methodology for A so your either-or dichotomy misrepresents A.

Seamus

yesdachi

10-06-2005, 15:02

So which is going to be used to explain a new strain of virus:

A) Intelligent Design... god did it.

B) Evolution... roll the dice enough times and the bank takes all.
On which day was it that god created evolution?~;)