BATTLE:Strategy,Tactics and Tips [Archive]

Seleukos

10-09-2005, 09:08

I havent searched much in the other forums (for the "senior" members),
but i think there must be a place where even the junior members (junior for the forum doesnt mean junior for the Game) can post tactics or tips for the Battle!
:duel:

So,i am waiting for suggestions from all,especially the more experienced.

ex:Use of units,combined tactics and so on.

Lets start with a tip:
The use of the special ability of archers:flaming arrows

Not use it,when u want to kill many of your opponents ,without causing an attack to u.

Use it when u want to provoke the enemy.Its sure ,that seeing his soldiers burning its not a plesant view for him,so its almost sure that he will make an attack quicker ,and more unprepared.

U can also take one unit of onagers,and throw fire-the enemy will be probably drifted to a quick charge.

Uesugi Kenshin

10-09-2005, 18:02

If outnumbered badly in a battle either play it safe and take a strong defensive position and risk las little as possible, attempt to divide the enemy army and take it down piece by piece, or risk everything and throw all of your army into a massive attack in an attempt to make the larger enemy army break when your charge strikes home. Hint: aim the charge at the general, focus missile units on him. Especially in MTW if the enemy general breaks or is killed his army may follow, if not at least some of his army should flee and you will hopefully be able to take advantage of that.

Seleukos

10-09-2005, 21:24

The use of Phalanx.

Its well known to most of players (and to readers of history too)
that the basic use of phalanx,is to face the opponents and try to cover the rear.

Formation
If u dont want your cavalry "stuck" at the rear of the phalanx,or u dont have non-phalanx infantry (as the Macedons and the southern Greeks),u can do this:

Form your battle line as a "^" (an angle -or open tringle).Put at the top the best parts of your pikemen. Every side unit will cover with their spears their front-side unit,so they cant be attacked by the rear.

U can also put them in a "π" formation :Place one more unit of pikemen at the back of the extreme right and left unit.So,when the enemy cavalry attacks from the rear,it will face pikemen=very bad for them.

Keep 1 or 2 unitsbehind your main line,not in phalanx formation,so they will be ready to run for help when the phalanx line is about to break somewhere,or they can run to stop cavalry when attacks.

Phalanx vs Elephants
Phalanx is a great tool against elephants.Put units in depth of 2 (one behind the other) The charge of elephants can brake a unit,but not 2.Many of them will be killed at the first charge against the spears,and the others will rout or get mad :dizzy2: soon!

Generally,dont forget this: The phalanx formation,during the hellenistic era,is mainly a defensive formation,a way to press the enemy-a platform on which u can apply your tactics.So,try to keep steady the phalanx line of units,dont make unprepared attacks with it.
As history teaches ,phalanx was destroyed when it was divided.

"μηδέν εωρακέναι φοβερώτερον και δεινότερον,φάλαγγος μακεδονικής..."
("i have never seen something more terrible and fearsome,from the macedonian phalanx.." -
Leucius Emilius Paulus (the Roman winner at Pydna 168 BC)-from Plutarch

Alexanderofmacedon

10-09-2005, 22:08

This tactic is most useful for Thrace and Carthage, who have very good non-phalanx infantry:

Unless you are facing elephants do this:

When you are given you phalanx unit it looks like this

------
------
------
------

I think you need to spread out the phalanx to cover more distance.Like this.

-------------------
-------------------

Now, if there were to be a cavalry charge then you might be in trouble. Which is when you do this. Put a non-phalanx infantry type in rows of two behind the phalanx

------------------
------------------
===========
===========

This way, your spear wall is long, but you've still got depth. Have cavalry guarding your flanks, for they are excellent troops, not to mention you can use them to flank if you need to. Archers behind on skirmish will also help.

Seleukos

10-09-2005, 22:20

i think its very hard for cavalry to break a phalanx formation,esp the phalanxes with depth-pikemen phalanx,silver shields- even at a single line.

to charge from the front a phalanx equals to stupidity.
So,1 or 2 units to run for assistance in case of danger,just to the spots where they are needed ,i think is enough.

Cavalry at the flanks means that u must keep them there,and this minimizes your ability to "lead the game" with your moves.(its the main alexander's tactic= a solid phalanx that presses ,and maneuvers of the companions) :charge:

Alexanderofmacedon

10-09-2005, 22:37

Yeah, I should have told you I usually have two other units of cavalry too.:dizzy2: One general and an other cavalry unit to manuever.

But seriously I do, and I use them to get enemy archers then I come from behind on enemy units. I'll hit one from behind causing much damage, then move to the next one.

You know, in a way, I'm much like Alexander in my tactics!~:eek:

EDIT: And if you know how to use cavalry, I'm pretty sure they could easily break through two lines of phalanx...

Seleukos

10-09-2005, 22:48

not at all my indian friend!
If u have trained macedonians in your ranks they will smash every enemy's cavalry charge! ~D
its impossible for face to face attack to brake the phalanx.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-09-2005, 22:53

I need to get my internet running for online games for RTW. I'll show you a thing or two about cavalry!~D

Seleukos

10-09-2005, 23:03

ok then!
get it and i mwaiting for u...
Alexander vs Porus again ~:)
i ll have first to beat u,and then make u a friend of mine! ~:cheers:

anyway,back to TACTICS!!!!!!

Alexanderofmacedon

10-10-2005, 03:52

Sorry to not go back to topic, but I don't see how I'll play Porus. There is no Indian units! Maybe we'll fight the battle of Ipsus~:cheers:

Alexanderofmacedon

10-11-2005, 23:04

As the Huns:

In BI, a new Horde faction is the Huns. At the beginning you are in horde form, and you have several troops. Not the best troops, but still, a kick ass army. Move half your army to Constantinople and half to Rome. Attack at the same time, and take the cities together. You've just taken the capital of the Western and Eastern empire in one turn! Now, just make money, defend your cities and expand.

Seleukos

10-11-2005, 23:16

nice tip Alexanderofmacedon ,but the thread is mainly for tactics on the battlefield,and no strategy on the campaign map.
waiting for more tactics!!!!!!! :charge:

Lord Winter

10-12-2005, 01:29

Never underestimate the power of a feigned (sp?) calvery retreat. It can:
1. tire your enemy out
2. Draw units into ambushs
3. Bring enemy units away form the main army so you can deal with them latter

eyupwoof

10-12-2005, 02:55

If they are availble Jav cav are perfect for the feign retreat tactic. Also be sure to use at least 3 units of jav cav if can to use this more sucsessfully. If they dont chase you you get to shoot them and if they do use swarm tactics as troops tend to panic if their on there own and outnumbered while getting charged from all directions, works great on romans ;)

Razor1952

10-12-2005, 04:47

Ah.... the heart of the matter for all the TW series.

Personally I think being the attacked rather than the attacker usually leads to a far stronger tactical postion, so campaign mode outmanoevering the ai is very important, eg. Seige their cities so they have to attack you ,eg. Place your army near hills so you can position uphill during battle waiting for the attack. Provoke them and dare them to attack. The ai will usually go for similar size armies, not taking into account too much your 10 star general and top quality troops. Also flogging them with a smaller army than theirs is especially fun.

Compostion of your army is also critical,eg having a few mounted missile units to tire out their infantry before their main attack works well in RTW.

Using suicide units like vanilla Seluecid scythe chariots or elephants . Postion these well away from your main force , send them in first into the rear if possible of their main army, and sure they will rout but will cause maximum mayhem. Great fun to execute well. Timing is everything

In the main battle try to maintain cohesion particularly of your main infantry, don't let your best troops go charging off to pursue some weak skirmishers(unless they'll never be needed in the battle again).

If playing a mod , whether you charge /flank depends on unit parameters. In RTR 6.1 you charge everthing for the charge bonus, other mods may require defense mode.

Flanking is always important as well, stopping the ai doing it and doing it yourself is a main part of battle manouvreing.

Lord Winter

10-12-2005, 05:16

eyupwoof

10-12-2005, 17:11

Oh given the option HA are better yeah but for the west factions, its the only option unless you got mercs. Oh and javlin horsemen can shoot backwards.

Seleukos

10-12-2005, 21:08

The bad thing with horse archers,
is that u have always to keep an eye on them,
otherwise they enemy cavalry can trap them and slay them.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-12-2005, 22:05

But you don't have to really keep an eye on them really. Just keep an eye on their unit cards and you will see what is going on...

Seleukos

10-12-2005, 22:13

Ah.... the heart of the matter for all the TW series.

Personally I think being the attacked rather than the attacker usually leads to a far stronger tactical postion, .

Yes i agree!
But i think most of us faced an enemy that simply,doesnt want to move !!
So,when leading an attack one has to be careful,moving the units slowly,and trying not to brake the basic lines of his army.
Otherwise,the advantage is for the defender,for sure.

:charge:

Lord Winter

10-13-2005, 02:59

This is one of my favorite traps to use aginst a aggressive enemy with limited calvary. I have always used it as cathrage but it could be used just as well with any faction with good calvary and phalanx. This strategy is very similar to the battle of canee (sp?).

----------------------------------------------

Army makeup (for cathrage)

Your army should contain this
1 Armored General
6 units of spearmen
3 units of spanish mercenaries
4 units of sacred band calvary
3 units of numidian calvary
2 units of skirmishers
1 unit of elephants

Deployment

Deploy your spanish mercenaries in the center of your line in a block. put a block of 3 phalanxes deployed a distance away from your mercenary on both flanks in a straight line. put your skirmishers in front of your mercenary and deploy calvary on the flanks. When you are done it should look like this
P= phalanx
N= Numidian calvary
c= Sacred band calvary
e= Elephants
m= Spanish mercenaries
g= General
s= skirmishers

s s
e n c c ppp mmm ppp c c nn
g

The battle
when your enemies advancing walk to forward and charge with your Spanish mercenaries and Skirmishers. When your skirmishers retreat behind your tr troops turn off fire at will to reduce casulties and conserve ammo. Keep the enemy calvary away with sacred band calvary, elephants and feigned retreats with your numdians. with both the enemy calvary and spanish mercenaries engaged. run your phalanxes to the enemas flanks. This is the most dangourous moment of the battle draw back your spanish mercenaries while at the same time advancing your javelins with fire at will back on. This will pull the enemy into a weak posture. form phalanx with your spearmen and advance into the enemy flank from both sides. Your enemy will rout and be destroyed.

rotorgun

10-13-2005, 03:07

Hey Ya'll,

Rotorgun here, and new to this thread. I've traded a few posts with O'le Alex of Macedon. He has some interesting ideas on the Phalanx that I'd like to try. One thing that works for me, at times, if facing a more or less equal army is to concentrate all my missle fire on one flank for awhile. I attempt to weaken a flanking infantry unit prior to attacking that flank. As I get close I shift fires to the enemy archers and general. If facing superior enemy archers I approach with my main line in open order to reduce casualties until just outside of charge range. Then I close ranks, and order my main line to a point slightly behind the enemy infantry line and let the main attack proceed.:duel:

Timing is critical as you don't want your main line caught by the enemy's mainline while in open formation. (I usually won't attempt this against the barbarian factions as they will often charge sooner than expected.) It is also important to properly screen your own flanks with good anti-cavalry troops to delay any attempt by his(her) cavalry to disrupt your attack. A few spearmen, or axe wielding units will suffice. Behind them are positioned your own cavalry-ready to counter charge theirs when they are engaged in melee with your flankers:charge:

Keeping some reserves is important as well. Also I tend to keep my general close to where my infantry line will meet its stiffest resistance. He provides a morale boost and is also ready to shore up either flank should an enemy cavalry outfit succeed in caving in my flank. He can also be ready to engage the opposing general unit if he attempts a breakthrough of the main line.:duel:

If I have missle cavalry available, I have found that sending them out to engage the enemy heavy cavalry ahead of time will often tempt them to chase these units around for awhile. You might lose one of them should they be cornered by the heavier horse, but it will by some time for your own heavy or light cavalry to engage his rear. I like to send them after the archers and missle units as soon as possible. This only failed once when I sent my Greek light cavalry after some of the dreaded Pharoah's Archers. These actually stood their ground and routed my horsemen. (Astounding units they are!)

Well, Ive been on the soapbox too long again. I hope I didn't bore all Ya'll

rotorgun~:cheers:
"Sir...they sure must be working that one horse to death!"-a soldier remarking to his OIC about the German horsedrawn artillery during the opening German barrage on the first day of the Battle of the Bulge.

Seleukos

10-13-2005, 20:59

hey rotorgun,wellcome to the thread!

Arrows vs arrows.

when 2 armies meet,its usual the first phase of the battle to be a rain of arrows to each other,before the melee.
I think the best think to do,is to concetrate firing on the enemy missiles.
So,if the enemy doesnt do the same,soon only U will have the advantage of arrows.
(the same tactic as in the modern warefare:first destroy the flaks,with the aeroplanes,and then bombard the targets u want)
~:handball:

Alexanderofmacedon

10-13-2005, 22:09

I would say use your cavalry for that, and concentrate your fire on the enemies best troops to kill them before they have an effect on your line.

Seleukos

10-13-2005, 22:31

I would say use your cavalry for that, and concentrate your fire on the enemies best troops to kill them before they have an effect on your line.

Yes,but an experienced player,wont leave his archers exposed to your cavalry charges.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-13-2005, 22:37

That's why I usually stack my cavalry...~;)

LestaT

10-14-2005, 04:32

What ever faction I use I found that hammer and anvil works best.

KhaderKhan

10-14-2005, 15:38

What ever faction I use I found that hammer and anvil works best.

I think you'll find the "Pin 'N' Flank" tactic works universally on all the TW games:duel:

Seleukos

10-15-2005, 19:40

I f u can guys, write a short description of hammer and anvil and pin n'flack tactics ,for the less experienced players pls.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-15-2005, 19:51

I like to hold a strong line, while taking my cavalry out to destroy enemies.

This is my plan:

So I have about 200 horses. A pretty fair sized cavalry, and with the impact alone it usually routes a unit. Unfortunetly I've only played the AI on VH, but still my plan works. I just take my 200 horse, focus them on one unit. When it routes (which is very soon) I then back out and then hit an other unit hard. I usually can knock out half the army like this. Of course I get knocked to about 20-30 horses, but it's still good. I'd really like to play online MP:embarassed:

Copperhaired Berserker!

10-15-2005, 20:19

Here's my tip:

Tire out the enemy whenever you can.

How to do this:

Rule 1: Always wait for enemie's to charge at you, It helps you in combat, but don't use if presense of misle infantry or atrilley is there. They kill you, if you do that.

Rule 2: Never run away to tire enemies if you have slow or armored troops, as it will make you tired, and vunerelble to flanking.

Rule 3: Dpn't sacerfice a troop so you can tire out someone. You need every man in there!

That's all.:bow:

The Nasty and vile yet smart Copperhaired Berserker!

Lord Winter

10-15-2005, 20:31

when you are defending a river have archers weaken the crossing units and then wait for half the army to cross. then attack and destroy the half of the army.

this is much better then just rushing to attack your enemy because:

1. you will in your enemies arrow range
2. on a bridge you cant flank
3 you will be facing only half the enemies forces.
4.the enemy will be weakened by your archers

Alexanderofmacedon

10-15-2005, 20:55

While holding a bridge I would recommend putting a phalanx unit at the choke point. It seems like it would be far more effective. they can't flank a phalanx which is one of it's only weaknesses

Seleukos

10-15-2005, 21:58

Defending on a bridge is a rather easy thing to do.
Firing the enemy (careful! better fire not the first enemy unit charging-causes many casualties among your units-but the units behind) and defending with phalanxes is the best way to do it.
Also:make some place for the enemy to cross the bridge and get on your side.
Then attack the units that crossed the bridge by encircling them and ouflanking them! :charge:

Attacking on a bridge is far more difficult.
I think the best way is this:try to destroy all enemy missile units by concetrating your missile against them.
Then attack by carefully advancing your units:first your stronger units,or at least the one with the better defence.
(better a phalanx if the enemy is still on the bridge.
When u are getting off the bridge is the most dangerous point-Just hope the enemy is not good enough or God is with u!! ~D

Alexanderofmacedon

10-15-2005, 22:04

Seleukos

10-16-2005, 19:53

Pls, post Barbarian tactics.!!

I havent played with them much,so maybe more experienced can advise the other! :duel:

Garvanko

10-16-2005, 21:04

In BI, it pays to keep formation, and attack systematically. And always attack first with missile units (especially archers) to disrupt the enemy formation.

Seleukos

10-16-2005, 22:03

In BI, it pays to keep formation, and attack systematically. And always attack first with missile units (especially archers) to disrupt the enemy formation.

I meant tactics of the Barbarian factions in RTW,
but tactics of BI would be cool too! ~:cool:

Alexanderofmacedon

10-17-2005, 00:02

Tips for barbarian RTW battles:

1. The most important thing you need to do is not let them use their legionary pila to good use. When you fight, let them attack you, and you're attacking then just move your archers into position and entice them to fight. Let them march towards you. You can't wait too long because there is a point in which the speed of your army's charge is taken away. Try to charge when they are just about to get to that point. You want them to be tired from marching and you want to also have good speed from the charge. Engage before they use pila, so it is to no effect.

2. Use battle warcry and rally often, because without it, the barbarian soldiers will get scared of such highly trained legionaires.

3. In my opinion NEVER and I mean NEVER use barbarian peasants. They will not fight for sh*t...

Dagobert II

10-17-2005, 21:24

Hey Everyone;

In discussing tactics, I can't say I'm that great,
but I do wish that the AI was not so predictable....
In regard to the BI, I've been playing Franks, and came
up with the 4 archer row with Levy Spears or Sword
Heerbahn with locked shields. With Spearmaen, enable
Fire at Will mode to slice up the first line. With Swords,
its important to have those archers off skirmish mode.
I try to keep reserves, notably Axe or Francisca
Heerbahn who in a moment's notice will strengthen a flank
and swing onto the enemy after they lock. After a warcry,
they will break even Roman Heavies assaulting the line.
Finally, Holding some raiders to sweep around and
take the flank after the Heerbahn engage, and then
take the archers. Pretty standard, the only faction that
caused Chaos were the Huns.

Seleukos

10-18-2005, 18:05

I think,a basic tactic when using barbarian factions is to try to fight in forest-so,u have to draw the enemy there.
Also use the warcry wise-i think it can be used 3 times .:furious3:

Dagobert II

10-18-2005, 22:21

I agree, it worked wonders in the Teutonberg forest.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-18-2005, 22:40

15,000 men gone. Bam. Gone...~:eek:

symball

10-19-2005, 15:28

I f u can guys, write a short description of hammer and anvil and pin n'flack tactics ,for the less experienced players pls.

Both pretty similar ideas I think.

Hammer and anvil- fast moving infantry and/or cavalry run around the back of the enemy while heavy infantry engage the front line of the enemy. once the heavies are fighting, charge the rear of the enemy line with the fast infantry/cavalry which should promt most of them to rout.

Pin and flank- the same idea as hammer and anvil but the faster troops wait until the enemy have been engaged before they run around and attack the rear.

Hammer and anvil is quite difficult to do on open battlefields as the enemy won't just let you run around the back without sending someone to fight. it is best used when you have somewhere to hide until you are ready (a defensive manouvre) pin and flank works best if you prevent your flanking troops from chasing routers and instead attack the next unit in the line- you can easily set up a chain reaction of routing this way.

Finally if you are using cavalry try to keep them out of toe to toe fighting. they are best used to charge in, wheel away and charge again. that way you shouldn't lose too many each time.

rotorgun

10-20-2005, 20:37

I f u can guys, write a short description of hammer and anvil and pin n'flack tactics ,for the less experienced players pls.

Hammer and Anvil tactics are when a general uses a portion of his army (the hammer) to push the enemy's main body against his defenses (the anvil) to crush it between them. What is great about this tactic is that, if properly executed, the hammer and the anvil can often be interchanged to meet the situation. A prime example of this would be the Battle of Austerlitz where Napoleon lured the Russians on to the Pratzen hieghts with a timed withdrawl, and then struck them hard in the flank with his reserve corps to drive them back into the river. :charge:

Pin n' Flank is a term used to describe using one's center to grapple the enemy's main body (Pin) and then strike hard with mobile forces at one flank to roll up the enemy's line. The Battle of Issus comes to mind when Alexander III rolled up Darius's left flank, using the Phalanx line to pin his center. It is quite effective when properly timed, but takes disciplined control of the strike arm. When pulled off on both flanks simultaneously it is called a double envelopement, such as was accomplished by Hannibal at Cannae. :duel:

Hope this was a help.

Rotorgun

Alexanderofmacedon

10-20-2005, 23:12

Hannibal used much more detailed and worthy tactics than the one you speak of.

I don't want to go into detail right now though.
~:cheers:

littlelostboy

10-21-2005, 00:58

I'm not sure if this had been posted already but always aim for the left side of your enemy because that is their weak point as they are not holding their shield there, for example: (H - Hoplites)

(NO SHIELDS SIDE)HHHHHHHHH(SHIELDS SIDE)
That tactic would rout most unit quickly. So aim your prickly arrows at that side and make your horses charge to the left of your enemy.
Hope this helps, LLB, :bow:

Lord Winter

10-22-2005, 05:25

any tips on atacking up hill?

eyupwoof

10-22-2005, 05:26

A tactic i had great sucsess with phalanx units what with what a call the sweet up formation. It basically works by putting a unit or 2 of phalanx units in a line and then putting the rest like this : (the lines are phalanx, a= archers, c= cav)

--
/ A
/ A A
C C C

With this formation theres no way you can be flanked just about.The weakness of course is that it can be slow moving and isnt the best formation to attack but i is still decent. I like to call it the slow tank move. You basically move into archer range and let all those arrows go to work and just sit there. If the enemy dont charge you they become pin cushions, and if they do you have the no flank advantage.

eyupwoof

10-22-2005, 05:30

Hmm it didnt seem to draw right even thr it was right when i posted.

---
/ A\
/ AA \
/ AAA \
C C C C C

Alexanderofmacedon

10-22-2005, 05:40

Welcome to the forums eyupwoof!

I like to use this formation. (p=phalanx unit such as sacred band. i=infantry such as Iberian infantry. c=cavalry. a=archers. e=elephants) This is mainly for a Carthoginian army (which I prefer)

eeeee

pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa
pi aaa

cccccc

I stretch my sacred band and iberian infantry out completely to two rows to increase length of pikewall and iberian infantry to keep depth against cavalry charges.
Cavalry (light and heavy) on one side and heavy armored elephants on the other side with archers in the rear.

PseRamesses

10-23-2005, 13:13

"Jaws" and a combo of hammer´n´anvil & pin´n´flank: (sorry for the slight unclear formation but I´ve been trying to line up them properly but can´t quite "line" up the letters to give you a crystal-clear picture of what I mean)

P= 6 Phalanx/ Spear set on hold/ guard
S= 6 Sword, normal formation
A= 4 Archer, set on hold formation and fire at your command
C= 4 Cavalry, formation and setup depends on which type of cav

SPPPPPPS
S A A S
S A A S
CC CC

1. I spread my P 4-5 rows deep. Put S slightly folded behind P (descr. doesn´t show).

S> <S
C S> <S C
S> <S
C PPPPPP C

2. P will pin enemys main infantry while S&C simoultanuesly move: Left S movew towards 1 o´clock and right S towards 11 o´clock creating a wall left and right of the enemy and the last row of S (at the bottom) will smash into the flank of each end (left and right) of the enemy (pin´n´flank). The two left C swiftly move towards 10 and 12 o´clock while the two right C move on 1 and 2 o´clock. C will now slam right into the side of any enemy cav that tries to outflank your S that is manouvering to the backside of the pinned inf. The second C is used for holding the flank and protect the first C from any attacks in the flanks or rear.
During this op it´c crucial that your archers concentrate on the enemys cav that is trying to take the flanks. Let him know that if he advances it´s gonna cost him.

<C SSSS C>
S S
<C PPPPPP C>
A A
A A

3. Close the Jaws of S against the P (hammer´n´anvil). The eneys main force of inf. is now engulfed and completely surrounded (the two S in the middle should be to the left and the right). Your C will now concentrate on countering the more desperate flanking enemy cav. Always keep your two C on each side wide apart for flanking each enemy cav you decide to take out but close enough to make the second engagement just seconds after the initial charge to create maximum effect.

This strategy is a gem and had never failed me but needs a lot of practice and the timing is crucial for its success. If not timed and well executed your sword units will be in trouble.
Basically this is all about offering the enemy a bait = your S that rushes "blindly" straight into the field and the enemys cav will go for it every time. When he does your first cav will slam into his side will full force and your second cav will either slam into his rear or defend your first C´s flank. Against cav-heavy factions, repeat and repeat again and always give his cav a torch from your archers.

ThatMaskedMan

10-24-2005, 08:27

Pin and flank is the way to go, but I add a slight modification with the use of missile troops. My troops are set up in up to five lines. Note this is meant for fighting AI, not humans.

The front line (usually 2 units) (if present) is skirmishers in loose formation. Their main job is to get shot up by missile troops and ridden down by cavalry so more important units aren't. If they can do a bit of damage with javelins, force enemy archers to fall back, or provoke a charge, so much the better.

The second line is archers in loose formation (4 units). Their primary target is enemy archers and lightly armored enemy units (head hurlers, horse archers, chariots, naked fanatics, berserkers, etc).

The third line is the main infantry battle line (6 units infantry + 2 units spearmen if available, otherwise 8 units infantry). Heaviest infantry to the center and spearmen on the flanks. This is my main battle line/pinning force.

The fourth line consists of support units, which most of my armies don't contain, though I do like druids and catholic priests when they are available. It goes just behind the main infantry line and contains artillery and support units (druids, catholic priests, ballistae, onagers, etc)

The fifth line consists of my cavalry (1 general + 2 heavy cavalry). This is the pinning force. I generally find that adding more cavalry makes the formation cumbersome to manuver and doesn't aid any more in breaking morale, so I usually leave it at one general and two cavalry. If I have camels, they go here but are tasked to fight enemy cavalry instead of infantry.

"Special" units, such as horse archers and elephants are placed on a flank of the third line.

Battles usually proceed like this: As the armies close, my skirmishers and archers engage. The battle then takes one of two paths. If the enemy doesn't want to charge, my missile units fire until out of ammo and then withdraw to safety. My infantry line charges theirs en masse while my cavalry wheel at speed to the enemy rear, then charge the rear of their most dangerous infantry units. Usually this causes an immediate rout, though against particularly dangerous opponents like chosen swordsmen, I might need to pull back and charge a couple times before they break. My infantry which were engaged with the routing units is retasked to attack the flanks of unbroken enemy infantry, while my cavalry continues to wheel and charge the rear of enemy infantry concentrations until the enemy is completely broken. If the enemy charges me, my skirmishers and archers withdraw to the rear. The AI tends to attack one flank heavily and leave the other mostly alone, so infantry on the lightly engaged flank move forward, wheel, and engage the flank of the enemy units attacking my center. My cavalry wheels to the rear of the heavily engaged flank, and proceeds as above.

This battle plan can be used to great success in all situations except when the enemy has a very large number of archers, or their archers are superior in ranged combat because of armor (chosen archers, pharaoh's bowmen).

In that case, my infantry moves to the first line, with two mini-lines of four infantry separated by a gap in the middle. My cavalry is placed just behind this gap, with archers behind the cavalry. As soon as I enter arrow range, my infantry charges. Its a bit tiring, but better than sitting under heavy missile fire. The cavalry paces the infantry. As the infantry hit the enemy main line, the cavalry charges and blows through the enemy center, then attempts to hunt down rear area targets like archers or artillery. If possible, my cavalry also gets in a charge or two into the rear of the enemy infantry. My archers pace my infantry as well, until my infantry closes to melee, then stop and begins firing at the retreating enemy archers from just behind my infantry.

Mangudai

10-26-2005, 18:20

I enjoy using steppe armies the most. The first priority is to destroy the enemy cav. There are several ways to do this.

The best way is to wait for the enemy to charge then charge them with a different unit at 90 degrees to their line of travel. Hit them full broadside and they are goners. ~:cool: Several times I've seen one unit of ordinary horse archers with no upgrades rout general bodyguards instantly. However, the timing is tricky.

Failing to achieve perfect timing ordinary horse archers will beat most general units with 3:1 odds and sometimes 2:1.

When I used Hunnic Chosen Warriors I put them in double line and charge straight on. The charges will hit the enemy in rapid succession and enemy cavalry will usually rout. If they don't rout, you still cut 'em down fairly quickly.

The next priority is to kill enemy missile troops. Either charge them or direct superior firepower their way.

Infantry are low priority. In very large battles you could run out of ammo before you kill all the infantry. The main problem is that shields are very good at blocking arrows from one direction. My prefered method is to surround the infantry with HA's. Then I manually target my units so that they shoot infantry in the back. This usually means shooting over the unit closest to them to hit another unit behind.

Seleukos

10-31-2005, 22:34

Alexanderofmacedon

10-31-2005, 23:20

I think for the most part I would buy archers, but peltasts are a pretty good alternative when you don't have the archery range required for archers...

Peltasts are pretty good infantry, even when they are out of javelinmen.I like to have them on the flanks of my army at "stand ground" mode. That way when the phalanx in the middle engages the enemy the fast peltast infantry can swing around and hit the flanks. Then the cavalry that I have on the sides, prefent my own army from getting flanked...

(sorry spelling might be off, I did this quick)

rotorgun

11-01-2005, 00:39

Peltasts and Javelinmen!

i m not sure how useful can be these guys...
Why someone should buy peltasts with the same money he could buy archers??
they have short range,slow rate of fire,their missile is limited and not so destructive...
so is their skirmish effective at all?
i think not much..

I agree with Alexanderofmacedon concerning peltasts. Used properly, these can devestate the morale of a hoplite force unprotected by cavalry, archers or other peltasts. During the Peloponnesian War, a hoplite only (well, there were a few archers) force was soundly defeated by an Aetolian peltast army.

To quote Demothsenes..."They came running down from the hills on all sides, hurling their javelins, falling back whenever the Athenian army advanced, and coming on again as soon as it retired. So for some time the fighting went this way, with alternate advances and retreats, in both of which the Athenians had the worst of it. Nevertheless they managed to hold out so long as the archers still had arrows and were able to use them. But once the captain of the archers was killed, his men scattered...the soldiers had become tired out with having to make constantly the same wearisome manoeuvers". (Thucidides III.98)

I think this demonstrates the proper use of peltasts, and the superiority of archers over them. If underestimated the javelin throwing infantry can be a battle winner. Remember Seleukos, it was your hill country Greek ancestors who perfected their tactics. Alexander the Great placed high value in his Greek and Thracian peltasts.

Mangudai

11-01-2005, 04:43

Defending a bridge
I prefer not to block the choke point. Instead I make a V formation. When the enemy get across just the feeling of being outnumbered and outflanked causes a huge morale drop. You can attack the enemy's backs if they don't rout right away which is rare. As someone else mentioned lots of Hunnic Heavy Cav is the only thing that I've seen cause chaos. But, still the Hunnic Heavies all routed.

I never attack across bridges unless I have overwhelming superiority.

Attacking up a hill
I divide my forces and approach from two directions. If one of my forces is attacked it pulls back, then the other force rushes up and siezes the high ground.

rotorgun

11-08-2005, 22:20

Attacking up a hill[/B]
I divide my forces and approach from two directions. If one of my forces is attacked it pulls back, then the other force rushes up and siezes the high ground.

Thanks for this suggestion Mandudai. I have never tried attacking a hilltop position in such a way yet.Does this approach work only when you outnumber the enemy, or does it work against a larger force as well? I can imagine the troop quality of your forces must be relatively high to achieve success.

Alexanderofmacedon

11-08-2005, 23:08

Well not really because you are drawing the enemy off their high ground. If you sieze it then a smaller maybe less trained force could still win.

I like holding positions like that. It's a VERY good position in my mind.

Mangudai

11-09-2005, 07:32

Thanks for this suggestion Mandudai. I have never tried attacking a hilltop position in such a way yet.Does this approach work only when you outnumber the enemy, or does it work against a larger force as well? I can imagine the troop quality of your forces must be relatively high to achieve success.

It really depends on the situation. I've fought a lot of these type of battles against rebels, since rebel armies tend to stay in one spot. In many cases I've used only a small low quality army led by a captain. This technique has worked against superior quality armies. By careful maneuver it is possible lure the enemy down, withdrawing before them, take the high ground, engage from on high, then bring the lower forces up to engage the enemy's backside.

If the enemy had a large balanced force with good cavalry, I would not attack uphill with infantry. Sometimes the course of wisdom is to withdraw and fight another day.

The other day I started playing Armenia on vh/vh. With 1 gen, 1 cat, 7 HAs, and 1 archer I attacked uphill against a Persian army with 2 gen, 2 cat, 4 HA's. The big hill presented a real problem because the enemy had better range and could probably do more damage with its arrows. Also there was a dust storm going on. I could have withdrawn, but I decided the dust storm gave me the advantage I needed to win, even though I was totally dependent on archery. Here is what I did: I started off with only HA's. As soon as I got to the bottom of the hill I started taking fire and it was painful. I maneuvered all my HA's to the right flank and crossed the T of the enemy's line. All of his units were firing at me, but the more distant ones were doing less damage because of the dust storm. I targeted all my HA's at his closest HA and reduced it fully before moving to the next target. The enemy chased me around a little bit with javelin generals and cataphracts, but I stuck to the same basic tactic. By the time I had destroyed all four of his HA's I was down to 3 half strength HA's with no ammo plus my fresh 1 gen, 1 cat, 1 archer. At this point the enemy still had 2 gen, 2 cat at about half strength and tired. I brought up my reserves. As soon as my foot archers were in range the enemy charged them. I used this opportunity for my 1 cat, 1 gen to take the high ground. I immediatelly charged downhill, and sent my depleted HA's to attack from below. The enemy routed and was too exhausted to escape.

The casualties were about equal 600 each. But a lot of my lost HA's were healed or had routed to safety. I was glad in a way to have lots of depleted HA's because I couldn't afford the upkeep, but I like to keep lots of units so that I can retrain and mobilize them all at once at a later time.

The Stranger

11-09-2005, 17:08

hmmmm its almost like my Tactics thread...

Seleukos

11-09-2005, 21:50

hmmmm its almost like my Tactics thread...

No,your tactics thread is like mine-U started it some 12 days later~:)

Anyway,this thread is not for strategy,its only for tactics on the battlefield.:charge: and i started it because there wasnt such a thread (at least in Entrance Hall)

All the opinions are wellcomed.
~:cheers:

m52nickerson

11-09-2005, 22:22

Attacking up a hill
I divide my forces and approach from two directions. If one of my forces is attacked it pulls back, then the other force rushes up and siezes the high ground.

I also use this approach. If I can't get higher or even ground near the enemy. If the enemy army is on the side of a mountain you may be able to get some HA to there flank. If the Unit of HA has any fighting ability (Like Steppe Heavies) they will be safe, as they will be attacking down hill. The enemy then has to soak up missile fire or charge up hill.

rotorgun

11-12-2005, 22:52

I also use this approach. If I can't get higher or even ground near the enemy. If the enemy army is on the side of a mountain you may be able to get some HA to there flank. If the Unit of HA has any fighting ability (Like Steppe Heavies) they will be safe, as they will be attacking down hill. The enemy then has to soak up missile fire or charge up hill.

A good suggestion indeed! Very astute of you to make such an observation. What would be a typical deployment of units to accomplish your tactic?

m52nickerson

11-12-2005, 23:04

A good suggestion indeed! Very astute of you to make such an observation. What would be a typical deployment of units to accomplish your tactic?

Well of course a good HA unit or two. Knights are also good to go with the HA, makes it even harder for the enemy to dislodge you. The your units at the bottom of the hill should be well armored, as they may have to be in missile range to keep the enemy occupied while you take the higher ground. Those lower units must also be ready to a full on charge, as most time the enemy will try to get out of the position they are in. The good thing is that as soon as they charge, you can hit there flanks and route them.

rotorgun

11-13-2005, 06:14

Well of course a good HA unit or two. Knights are also good to go with the HA, makes it even harder for the enemy to dislodge you. The your units at the bottom of the hill should be well armored, as they may have to be in missile range to keep the enemy occupied while you take the higher ground. Those lower units must also be ready to a full on charge, as most time the enemy will try to get out of the position they are in. The good thing is that as soon as they charge, you can hit there flanks and route them.

I see...almost a way of forcing the issue- either attack the seeming weaker units below and get outflanked from higher ground, or fight at a disadvantage against the HA and Cav on the hill and eventually get crushed from the other direction...very cunning. What if the enemy force is similarly arrayed with HA of their own?