Finally, Germany gets a new chancellor [Archive]

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A.Saturnus

10-10-2005, 17:55

Strike For The South

10-10-2005, 18:18

So in Germany It is not a winner take all system? I could'nt imagine Bush giving senate seats to the democrats for another term.

Duke Malcolm

10-10-2005, 18:20

I wouldn't think that a coalition such as this could ever get round to much change and progression. It really does just depend on those small parties.

Stefan the Berserker

10-10-2005, 18:33

Actual "To do"-List:

:scared: -> :phonecall: -> :rifle: -> :hanged:

King Henry V

10-10-2005, 18:42

So in Germany It is not a winner take all system? I could'nt imagine Bush giving senate seats to the democrats for another term.
Because there was no exact winner in the German election. It's not like America where you basically have a two party system.

Tribesman

10-10-2005, 20:02

It may be very succesful , or it could collapse in a very short time .
The allocation of both Finance and Foriegn ministries to the SPD might just balance out the worst excesses of the CDU policies .
But it remains to be seen if the left and right can come together to work the middle ground .
If not then its new elections , a probable further decline for the CDU and the strengthening of the smaller parties .
Should be fun to watch .

Louis VI the Fat

10-10-2005, 20:05

Substitute 'fun' for eh, 'interesting' and I agree with Tribesman.

Tribesman

10-10-2005, 20:11

Come on Louis , a pro war chancellor and an anti war foriegn minister , that is gonna be fun~;)

Papewaio

10-10-2005, 21:58

So what Bush was Pro-War and Powell was Anti-War, both in the equivalent roles.

If the chancellor is the head with real power then the foreign minister will be going to the foreign governments "I believe in teamwork and diplomacy. I also believe in preparing thoroughly before invading. So I apologise for us going alone, with a half baked scheme. Oh well at the end of my term I will resign."

Tribesman

10-10-2005, 22:06

But they were both of the same Party , not a last resort coilition of two pretty much completely opposed parties .

Ser Clegane

10-10-2005, 22:06

Angela Merkel will be heading a grand coalition in Germany. The SPD will get extra ministers instead. Schröder is at the end of his carrier. The question is, can the coalition accomplish anything, is it maybe just what Germany needs? Not surprisingly the opposition is unhappy.

Over the last couple of days I started to wonder if Schröder ever was serious in his insistance that he should remain chancellor. One could get the feeling that he played the stubborn guy to gain a very valuable bargaining chip to get some extra minister posts and to strengthen SPD-positions in the program of the new government.

Personally I am glad that we finally came to a result and any predictions whether this administration will get the act done are currently just reading in the crystal ball.
I sure hope that they use the fact that there is no more Bundesrat-veto to block decisions, and that they use the next years for some reforms of the Bundesrat and the Länder-elections (we definitely need to put an end to these omni-present elections - get some fixed sates for all elections).

In the end this will only be a period of transition and it will be interesting to see which party is able to benefit from this transition period - my guess is that of the two large parties it will no be the one that decides to block decisions in this coalitions...

Kaiser of Arabia

10-10-2005, 22:17

W00T! Anyone's better than Schröder! Plus, she's pretty cool, compared to other European Politicians *cough*Chirac*cough*

Louis VI the Fat

10-10-2005, 23:22

Schröder? Who's Schröder, Capo?

Trust Chrirac to have already made new alliances in his endeavour to bring you guys down. ~;)

http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2005/07/19/h_9_ill_673824_merkel.jpg

Edit: Merkel and Chirac at l'Elysée.

Kaiser of Arabia

10-10-2005, 23:57

Evil_Maniac From Mars

10-11-2005, 01:21

WAHOO! WAHOO! WAHOO!

I mean...I reluctantly accept this new leadership while I plot the restoration of Imperialism to Germany...~;)

Taffy_is_a_Taff

10-11-2005, 02:04

A German friend of mine (female) was not happy with this development because the new chancellor is conservative.

In fact it went something like this: "I'd be ecstatic that there is a female chancellor but she's a conservative so I'm not ecstatic".

BOOO HISSSSSSSSSS!!! German rightwingers stole the opportunity for the German left to provide the first female chancellor. What scoundrel behaviour, eh?

:laugh4:

Alexander the Pretty Good

10-11-2005, 03:25

Female conservatives can't win, can they?

A.Saturnus

10-11-2005, 22:28

Franconicus

10-12-2005, 07:03

Angela Merkel. That is painful man. :bigcry: I remember when she was minister for environment:no: I also remember her visiting Bush before the war. It is a shame.
But one thing is shure. She knows how to get the power. And she will keep it.Do not think that Germany will have a weak government, maybe the wrong one, but not weak.
Oh Schröder, why couldn't you prevent that?

Voigtkampf

10-12-2005, 07:34

Over the last couple of days I started to wonder if Schröder ever was serious in his insistance that he should remain chancellor. One could get the feeling that he played the stubborn guy to gain a very valuable bargaining chip to get some extra minister posts and to strengthen SPD-positions in the program of the new government.

That would imply a level of unselfishness of which the good old Gerd is utterly incapable of. Guess he’ll be the first chancellor they will have to drag out of the office while he screams and cries and clings to his desk.

Adrian II

10-12-2005, 09:10

That would imply a level of unselfishness of which the good old Gerd is utterly incapable of. Guess he’ll be the first chancellor they will have to drag out of the office while he screams and cries and clings to his desk.To me it looks more like Angie will have to be dragged screaming and kicking into the Kanzlei, because she does not have a clue as to what she should do there. The fact that she managed to reduce a clear lead in the polls to virtually nil in the course of four weeks is a bad omen in itself. She starts off with very little credit. Maybe we will see new elections in Joymanny within a year.

Al Khalifah

10-12-2005, 13:55

Alas, looks like Europes major economic power is going to remain socialist for another long drag. There goes the hope of seeing the necessary changes to reform the European Union into a viable and globally competitive union instead of a bunch of hands all desperately diving into the biscuit tin. Germany is in trouble at the moment and needs some durastic changes - this unholy coalition will lead to nothing but innactivity.

Arcanum

10-12-2005, 14:32

I wouldn't judge the current government too fast, the SPD and the CDU have come together quite a lot the past few years...

My prediction is that Merkel sits out her puny 4 year chancellorship and then gets voted off. Her ways are too strange to be successful, before the war in Iraq she agreed with it, afterwards she tried to tell us she never did and now she preached honesty in the time of the election...come on?!

Anyway, other than that she seems capable of arguing with Citizens at least, saw a very interesting "Question Round" (maybe wrong, I guess) with her in which she really, really owned a few citizens attacking her because of the tax politics she is following.

We'll see...

Kralizec

10-12-2005, 15:23

Can't argue with Schroder being a pretty lousy leader, but Merkel?? She started in the polls with a huge lead, then managed to win by photo finish. That should say something.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Franconicus

10-12-2005, 16:33

Merkel has no concept. But she does not need it. She has a very good sence for power. She managed to dominate the Union and she forced the SPD to support her. So do not undersestimate her!

Evil_Maniac From Mars

10-12-2005, 21:46

I don't like her stance on fighting side-by-side with the Americans, but you have to take the good with the bad. :embarassed:

Craterus

10-12-2005, 21:51

I don't like her stance on fighting side-by-side with the Americans, but you have to take the good with the bad. :embarassed:

Would you prefer fighting AGAINST the Americans? It's not all bad... ~D

Evil_Maniac From Mars

10-12-2005, 21:53

Would you prefer fighting AGAINST the Americans? It's not all bad... ~D
I'd prefer not to fight with them at all...the one thing Schröder did well was opposing them...

Craterus

10-12-2005, 21:54

I'd prefer not to fight with them at all...the one thing Schröder did well was opposing them...

True, I was just comparing one extreme with another.

A.Saturnus

10-12-2005, 22:48

That would imply a level of unselfishness of which the good old Gerd is utterly incapable of. Guess he’ll be the first chancellor they will have to drag out of the office while he screams and cries and clings to his desk.

Hmm, he could have been vice-chancellor. He said today that he will definitely not be part of the new government. Don´t know whether it was selfishness, his head brought the SPD 8 ministers.

A.Saturnus

10-12-2005, 22:50

To me it looks more like Angie will have to be dragged screaming and kicking into the Kanzlei...

lol
Merkel´s problem is that no one can imagine her as a figurehead. But then, the CDU has currently a lack of possible figureheads.

Adrian II

10-12-2005, 23:23

lol
Merkel´s problem is that no one can imagine her as a figurehead. But then, the CDU has currently a lack of possible figureheads.But so seemingly has the SPD, if I am to believe this morning's FAZ. They write that the SPD has great trouble finding capable people. Muentefering is a not a Volljurist so they can't give him Justice. Other SPD candidates are losers of State elections - not very attractive or authoritative.

But maybe the real recruitment problem of both parties is the fact that no capable politician wants to 'burn his fingers' on a risky coalition that some commentators predict will not last much longer than a year.

Voigtkampf

10-13-2005, 09:14

To me it looks more like Angie will have to be dragged screaming and kicking into the Kanzlei, because she does not have a clue as to what she should do there. The fact that she managed to reduce a clear lead in the polls to virtually nil in the course of four weeks is a bad omen in itself. She starts off with very little credit. Maybe we will see new elections in Joymanny within a year.

New elections coming down the road very soon? Quite possible. Yet the true reason for Merkel’s underachievement is not her lack of abilities (which, objectively, cannot yet be assessed) but her utter lack of charisma.

Gerd is a twat. He is a circus clown that plays a role of serious politician, and he pulled it off pretty well for a long time. He, however, outweighs Merkel in matters populism and charisma by far. It appears obvious to me that many have forgotten how important the charisma of a candidate is for his/hers overall success. Note the comment

Can't argue with Schroder being a pretty lousy leader, but Merkel?? She started in the polls with a huge lead, then managed to win by photo finish. That should say something.

Merkel is no genius, and I am not confident in her abilities to lead Germany as good as I would want her to, but to outbid the old weasel in matters of incompetence, she would have to actively work against all and any German economical interest. It would not suffice for her to just be bad; she would have to try hard to be really bad. No one but Gerd has this ability to mess up so many things at the same time so badly.

I'd prefer not to fight with them at all...the one thing Schröder did well was opposing them...

Schroeder being an opportunist of major league, he wouldn’t have hesitated for one second to do the exact opposite if it would have been in his own interest. His downfall, which should have occurred four years ago, was painfully postponed because he collected massive points in the great flooding in Germany where he went around and shook hands like a berserk, promising extensive help, but far more so counting on today’s Germany’s utter resistance to each and any form of armed conflict. Riding on those two currents, he won narrowly the elections four years ago. Alas, no major catastrophe or war on Syria this year, tough luck Gerd.

Hmm, he could have been vice-chancellor. He said today that he will definitely not be part of the new government. Don´t know whether it was selfishness, his head brought the SPD 8 ministers.

I suppose it’s the same generosity and unselfishness that made him step down from leadership of SDP in favor of Muentefering? Well, I don’t believe in Santa Claus anymore.

A.Saturnus

10-13-2005, 22:12

I suppose it’s the same generosity and unselfishness that made him step down from leadership of SDP in favor of Muentefering? Well, I don’t believe in Santa Claus anymore.

Well, there´s a difference. Back then, it was clear that Schröder would remain to be the boss. Whatever his intend now, the actual result was beneficial for the SPD and not for him. Unselfish hardly describes him, admitted, but it seems there are still a few things he can´t bring him to do for power.

Arcanum

10-14-2005, 13:18

Voigtkampf: I totally disagree with Schröder beeing an all too bad chancellor, remember Kohl? Schröder hat to live through 9/11 in his years of leading and through dozens of other problems, such as rising Oil prices and gathering money for any catastrophes occuring anywhere else on the world, would you expect someone in these times to lead a country to the High Road when the whole world has problems?

Yes, these years were not an optimum for us, but neither were it americas good years under George W. Bush...woops! He's not voted off yet. Sorry... Anyway, you get the my point. The whole world has suffered and someone has to be responsible for the problems that effect germany, if we had Kohl as a leader our country wouldn't be in a better position and Kohl would be as hated as Schröder, I might guess.

And yeah, Schröder is charismatic. ;)

Voigtkampf

10-15-2005, 07:41

Voigtkampf: I totally disagree with Schröder beeing an all too bad chancellor, remember Kohl?

The man on the helm of Germany in the days of reunification? The man that was chancellor for sixteen years? Yeah, I remember Kohl.

Schröder hat to live through 9/11 in his years of leading and through dozens of other problems, such as rising Oil prices and gathering money for any catastrophes occuring anywhere else on the world, would you expect someone in these times to lead a country to the High Road when the whole world has problems?

Gerd only profited from 9/11; first by identifying him and Germany with the USA in the times of suffering, condemning the attacks, and then with bailing out from US sponsored Iraqi war, riding on the highly accentuated anti-war “stimmung” of the Germans. Rising oil prices and other mentioned difficulties have hit not only Germany, but other European and world countries as well; still, economical indicators have revealed that the Germany was coping with all of those far worse then others due to ineffective government. Google it up, if you missed the numbers.

Yes, these years were not an optimum for us, but neither were it americas good years under George W. Bush...woops! He's not voted off yet.

I could never make a better claim for Schroeder’s inefficiency then you just have.

Sorry... Anyway, you get the my point. The whole world has suffered and someone has to be responsible for the problems that effect germany, if we had Kohl as a leader our country wouldn't be in a better position and Kohl would be as hated as Schröder, I might guess.

It is more than that. Far more. I run my own business; I suffer from oil prices, market changes, inflation, lack of skilled craftsman, in short, almost everything economy can put up. I must cope with all of these circumstances, and if I fail, I failed not because of those issues, but because of my lack of ability to cope with them. In that case, I better go and find myself a steady, non-entrepreneurship occupation.

Same with Gerd. Not that he didn’t manage to turn the odds to his benefit, he even failed to cope with them with the same efficiency his other European neighbors managed to do that. Tough luck, Gerd, I don’t let that “It wasn’t me!” excuse slide, if you are not able to stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen; if you are not able to run the world’s third greatest economy satisfactory, hand the job over to someone who might.

And yeah, Schröder is charismatic. ;)

Not to me; I understand his general appeal, though.

Arcanum

10-15-2005, 14:44

The man on the helm of Germany in the days of reunification? The man that was chancellor for sixteen years? Yeah, I remember Kohl.

Very good, Kohl was as much of a shocking impact to germany as Schröder, maybe even worse. If germany wouldn't have been that badly scarred before, we could even have ignored a Schröder leadership and felt fine.

Gerd only profited from 9/11; first by identifying him and Germany with the USA in the times of suffering, condemning the attacks, and then with bailing out from US sponsored Iraqi war, riding on the highly accentuated anti-war “stimmung” of the Germans. Rising oil prices and other mentioned difficulties have hit not only Germany, but other European and world countries as well; still, economical indicators have revealed that the Germany was coping with all of those far worse then others due to ineffective government. Google it up, if you missed the numbers.

I looked a bit around and found this (assuming that you're german aswell) http://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de/11.0.html

Guess that tells us that we even more depend on World economics than most other countries in the world, if we are as naive as I am and believe the official sources.

I could never make a better claim for Schroeder’s inefficiency then you just have.

I never said he was efficient, but he isn't the worst one can imagine...eh?

It is more than that. Far more. I run my own business; I suffer from oil prices, market changes, inflation, lack of skilled craftsman, in short, almost everything economy can put up. I must cope with all of these circumstances, and if I fail, I failed not because of those issues, but because of my lack of ability to cope with them. In that case, I better go and find myself a steady, non-entrepreneurship occupation.

Wait a second, that means, if you had a factory and a hurricane would crush it down, it's your fault because you were not able to cope with the hurricane that crashed your business? Hmm... sounds like natural selection for me.

Same with Gerd. Not that he didn’t manage to turn the odds to his benefit, he even failed to cope with them with the same efficiency his other European neighbors managed to do that. Tough luck, Gerd, I don’t let that “It wasn’t me!” excuse slide, if you are not able to stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen; if you are not able to run the world’s third greatest economy satisfactory, hand the job over to someone who might.

Running a country "satisfactory" is not often achieved these days. Can't argue that we need a better Government though...but nearly everyone does. Except for the British *sigh*

Not to me; I understand his general appeal, though.
You always choose the lesser evil, and saying that Merkel is charismatic is strange.

Quid

10-15-2005, 15:06

To me Schröder was anything but charismatic. Compared to Merkel he may be but then what Germany really needed was exacltly that; a charismatic leader. He didn't necessarily needed to be all that good and competent but he needed to have a face to show to the world and most of all to the German people.

The current chancellor needs to put fresh life into the economy, into the social agenda etc.; (s)he needs to make the German people blieve in themselves again, to have confidence. What I see at the moment is just petty squabbling amongst two opposing parties who pretend to be all cheery and friendly, not able to form a decisive govenment. Germany has to wait for a real leader that will make things happen again. Therefore, I will not hold my breath for the new government. I predict it won't last long, this so-called coalition. It will crumble and sooner rather than later, at that. I sincerely wish the German people all the best in their endeavour especially since Switzerland WILL inevitably be affected by Germany's decisions.

I don't doubt Merkel's abilities for a minute...I very much doubt her uncharismatic ways, however. She has about as much of that as a seagull has meat under its kneecap.

Quid

A.Saturnus

10-15-2005, 19:20

The man on the helm of Germany in the days of reunification?

Yes, he did that. But not much else actually. All those reforms Germany needs since decades now could have been done then. When we had the money to do all that is necessary. But all looked well then, why do anything? "Die Rente isch sicher!"

Rising oil prices and other mentioned difficulties have hit not only Germany, but other European and world countries as well; still, economical indicators have revealed that the Germany was coping with all of those far worse then others due to ineffective government.

Truth be told, a number of other major European powers aren´t doing so great as well.