Remember Elian Gonzalez? [Archive]

Gawain of Orkeny

10-11-2005, 02:41

Ive been wondering what ever happened to him and how he was doing in Cuba. I should have guessed.

Elian, '60 Minutes,' and the party line
Oct 10, 2005
by Jeff Jacoby ( bio | archive | contact )

Email to a friend Print this page Text size: A A Like Winston Smith, Elián Gonzalez has learned to love Big Brother. CBS News loves him, too. Elián's excuse is that he is 11 years old and has been brainwashed by a totalitarian police state. What excuse is there for CBS?

Last week, "60 Minutes" aired an interview with Elián, the Cuban boat child who survived a desperate escape from Fidel Castro's island dictatorship in November 1999 only to be forcibly turned over to the Cubans by the Clinton administration the following April. The story was a shameless piece of agitprop. From correspondent Bob Simon's opening description of the Elian affair as a conflict on the order of the Bay of Pigs invasion and the 1962 missile crisis to his fawning speculation at the end that Elián "may have a future in Cuban politics," virtually the entire segment had the oily feel of Cuban government propaganda. Which it may literally have been: Simon disclosed that "Castro's personal cameraman" had "helped" put the story together.

Anyone who watched "60 Minutes" knows that Elián now has "carefully gelled hair." That he is the president of his seventh-grade class. That he likes math and wants to be a computer scientist. That he thought the best part about being interviewed was getting "a bottle of really cold water and a gizmo in his ear for simultaneous translation." And don't forget that hair.

"What's also changed about you is your hair," Simon cooed. "Your hair looked very different then. You didn't have hair like that."

Ever since his forced return to Cuba in April 2000, Elián has been exploited endlessly by the communist government's disinformation apparatus. "60 Minutes" showed him being welcomed as a "conquering hero" and delivering a "patriotic speech in front of the cameras and Castro." (An excerpt of that speech, complete with servile "Viva Fidel," is posted on the CBS website.) "Che Guevara was yesterday," Simon intoned, "Elián Gonzalez is today, and that's precisely how the regime is playing him."

But Elián was not the only one being played by the regime. "60 Minutes" made much of the fact that Castro came to Elián's elementary school graduation and pronounced himself Elián's friend. "That's quite something, isn't it," Simon gushed, "for the president of a country to say he's honored to have a kid as a friend?"

Elián: Yes, and it's also very moving to me. And I also believe I am his friend.

Simon: Do you think of him as a friend?

Elián: Not only as a friend, but also as a father.

Simon: If you had a problem, would you call him up and tell him about it?

Elián: I could.

Well, it is good to know that Elián thinks so highly of Castro. And one must admire the restraint shown by "60 Minutes," which somehow managed to avoid mentioning that Elián's friend and surrogate "father" is also the world's longest-ruling tyrant, a sadist who has killed or imprisoned tens of thousands of dissidents, and, not incidentally, the Stalinist thug who drove Elizabet Brotons -- Elián's mother -- to her death in the Florida Straits.

Come to think of it, why did Brotons want so desperately to leave Cuba? Why was she willing to risk her and her son's life on such a dangerous -- in her case, fatal -- attempt to cross the 90 miles that separate Cuba from freedom? Was it was the grinding poverty, the ubiquitous rationing, the constant shortages? Was it the lack of the free speech? The suppression of religion? The inability to criticize the government without risking years behind bars? Was it the informers on every block? The political dossier maintained on every student's "political attitude and social conduct?" Was it the knowledge that once Elián turned 11, he would be subject to mandatory labor for six to eight weeks every year? Was it the sheer, soul-crushing misery of living in a country routinely ranked as one of the most unfree places in the world?

"60 Minutes" had nothing to say about any of that.

On the other hand, it did show Elián saying -- when prodded by Simon -- that he had no good memories of his stay in Miami, that the relatives who cared for him "tormented" him by speaking of his mother, and that when he was seized at gunpoint by a federal SWAT team, he "felt joy that I could get out of that house."

It bears repeating: Elián is only 11, and was just 5 when these events took place. He cannot be blamed for spouting the Communist Party line. But CBS has no such excuse. "Helped" by "Castro's personal cameraman," indeed. Edward R. Murrow must be spinning in his grave.

Yes hes much better off there..

Strike For The South

10-11-2005, 02:45

Who honestly cares? In a couple of years Castro is gone and I can get my smokes.

lars573

10-11-2005, 03:32

Ive been wondering what ever happened to him and how he was doing in Cuba. I should have guessed.

Yes hes much better off there..
Indeed he is the education and health care systems are 2 times better than what he would get in Florida. Especially since Castro wants to milk his PR potential, he'll make sure the little guy gets all the best.

Alexander the Pretty Good

10-11-2005, 03:57

And yet he seems to have no idea he's living in a totalitarian state.

Brainwashing also a plus? :dizzy2:

solypsist

10-11-2005, 04:50

so it seems people outside of the US are not allowed to be content. or at least appear so.

Crazed Rabbit

10-11-2005, 05:12

Indeed he is the education and health care systems are 2 times better than what he would get in Florida.

And the official propaganda of a totaltarian regime should be trusted why...?

so it seems people outside of the US are not allowed to be content. or at least appear so.

Way to crush that straw man!

Crazed Rabbit

AggonyKing

10-11-2005, 05:21

yes. I went to cuba recently, and no one seem to know were he is, so I'm guessing it got old, but there's these new campaing for the 5 heroes *cough* Spies *cough*

Crazed Rabbit

10-11-2005, 05:24

Not only spies, but people who gave flight patterns of a Cuban resistance group operating in international waters to Castro, who had his air force shoot down one of their planes.

Crazed Rabbit

AggonyKing

10-11-2005, 05:28

Not only spies, but people who gave flight patterns of a Cuban resistance group operating in international waters to Castro, who had his air force shoot down one of their planes.

Crazed Rabbit
castro will do anything to keep that dam economic blockade, with out it, he's nothing, dam the guy is smart

Soulforged

10-11-2005, 05:51

And the official propaganda of a totaltarian regime should be trusted why...?Did he said that? First try to separate, then try to abstract yourself, and finally try to priorize when you make your statement.

so it seems people outside of the US are not allowed to be content. or at least appear so.Yes I love this quote:
Why was she willing to risk her and her son's life on such a dangerous -- in her case, fatal -- attempt to cross the 90 miles that separate Cuba from freedom?

castro will do anything to keep that dam economic blockade, with out it, he's nothing, dam the guy is smartYou don't need to be smart if you can use force for everything. Besides "the guy" is loosing his mind recently.

Hurin_Rules

10-11-2005, 06:42

Adrian II

10-11-2005, 06:51

Sorry, the father has a greater right to his son than anyone else, and that was ultimately what the case boiled down to.That was what it boiled down to, but the case was about more than that. Both sides used him for propaganda reasons. However, in the U.S. Elian could camp outside the President's home for a month to protest his policies and get a hearing from the press. In Cuba he can not say so much as 'booh' to Castro without having privileges withdrawn from him and his family.

English assassin

10-11-2005, 11:08

However, in the U.S. Elian could camp outside the President's home for a month to protest his policies and get a hearing from the press. In Cuba he can not say so much as 'booh' to Castro without having privileges withdrawn from him and his family

Bring back Batista ! Down with universal healthcare and an average life expectancy of 77.23 yrs (compare US, 77.71)

I'm SURE its Elian's inability to protest against the government that is upsetting the right wing posters here, seeing how supportive they all were of Cindy Sheenan (?sp?).

Hurin rules rules. The child should be with his father. Maybe we could debate Cuba in another thread.

Louis VI the Fat

10-11-2005, 11:19

I'm SURE its Elian's inability to protest against the government that is upsetting the right wing posters hHey, that's what's upsetting me as well.

Bottom line for me was that you don't return a boy to a country run by perfid commies, regardless of whether they have decent healthcare or not.

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 11:45

Not only spies, but people who gave flight patterns of a Cuban resistance group operating in international waters to Castro, who had his air force shoot down one of their planes.

Would that be the CIA backed terrorist group whose ex-military plane was shot down by Cuban fighters in Cuban Airspace ?
Or have you been listening to too much of ....the official propaganda of a totaltarian regime ?~D ~D ~D

Sorry, the father has a greater right to his son than anyone else, and that was ultimately what the case boiled down to.
Yep family values , it is better for a child to live with his father than with a convict in a house of convicts .
Besides which he was a wetfoot , since '94 wetfoots have to be repatriated , its government policy .

castro will do anything to keep that dam economic blockade,
Yes it is voted on every year , and every year it is always Cuba that uses its Veto so that the blockade is kept in place .:dizzy2:

English assassin

10-11-2005, 12:06

Bottom line for me was that you don't return a boy to a country run by perfid commies, regardless of whether they have decent healthcare or not

Why ever not? Cuba certainly has a bad record on fair trials and other important issues, but the healthcare and life expectancy is interesting, no? It suggests to me that maybe this is a communist regime that is actually trying some form of communism, as opposed to arbitrary rule by and in the interests of the apparachniks. Probaly they could do a bit better if Uncle Sam hadn't spent the last 40 years trying to [perform a sex act after which it may be uncomfortable to sit down] on them.

I'd disagree with this in principle, but its also worth adding that Castro will die shortly, whereupon Cuba will no doubt be immediately opened up to exploitation by sugar producing multinationals paying well under the US minimum wage, just like the good old days. Why, I bet they'll even have those foreign owned casinos open again soon. So Elian will get his chance to live in a capitalist paradise anyway.

Idaho

10-11-2005, 12:37

Adrian II

10-11-2005, 13:26

Cuba certainly has a bad record on fair trials and other important issues, but the healthcare and life expectancy is interesting, no?Sounds like the ideal prison to me.
(..) Castro will die shortly, whereupon Cuba will no doubt be immediately opened up to exploitation by sugar producing multinationals paying well under the US minimum wage, just like the good old days. Why, I bet they'll even have those foreign owned casinos open again soon.After Castro's death I think we will see a lenghty transition in which the Communist party cadres will secure their cut of the profits whilst the country gradually opens up to the Miami fascists. Cuba will not become a cesspool, it will probably be more like Nicaragua after the Sandinistas.

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 13:42

My mistake ....Would that be the CIA backed terrorist group whose ex-military plane was shot down by Cuban fighters in Cuban Airspace ?

It is only an established fact tha BTTR 1 was in Cuban airspace , is still disputed if BTTR 2&3 were in Cuban or international airspace .
Interesting to note that the pilot of BTTR 1 , a terrorist implicated in 30 murders has said that the Joint Chiefs , Airforce (NORAD) and USMC are liars , I thought they were his friends ~;)

yesdachi

10-11-2005, 16:01

The US gets it's knickers in a twist over Cuba and the rest of the world is largely non-plussed.

That 'article' was perhaps one of the worst pieces of journalism I have read in ..hmm.. days now. It is completely unsubstantive and just repeats the original material making scary ghost noises in the background.
Excellent way of describing the article! Wooooo indeed. ~:)

As to Cuba, the US does get more excited about anything that happen there because it is only 90 miles away and there are a lot of people of Cuban decent here.~:handball:

Not at you, Idaho, just in general.
I am curious if the Cuban people are looking forward to changes after Castro’s passing. Perhaps if there are any Cubans out there they could tell us their thoughts… … *crickets* … … oh, I’m sorry without free speech there’s not much chance for any Cubans to tell us their thoughts.:smartass2:

I don’t think state healthcare is a bad idea but I wouldn’t want to give up any of the limited freedoms I have to get it.

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 16:18

there are a lot of people of Cuban decent here
Damn hispanic illegal immigrants , sneaking into the States , taking honest Americans jobs .....forget the Mexican border , send the minuteman project vigilantes to the Florida coastline .~;)
Hmmm.....I wonder why the usual anti-illegal immigrant posters are so pro- illegal immigrant when it comes to this subject ?~D ~D ~D

BDC

10-11-2005, 16:20

Cuba is entirely America's fault anyway. Castro only became a communist because America didn't want him to replace wossname, the chap before. So much corruption...

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 16:25

Cuba is entirely America's fault anyway.
Not "entirely" BDC , mainly would be a better word to use .

Crazed Rabbit

10-11-2005, 17:03

So a father should have his own son returned to him if, and only if, we are allies with the political regime under which he lives?

Great family values there.

Sorry, the father has a greater right to his son than anyone else, and that was ultimately what the case boiled down to.

His father? From whom he had been seperated since nearly a baby? Who hadn't seen him in years? How convenient to forget that his own mother died trying to get him to the USA. Admit it: the people here don't care a whit about returning him to his father, they just wanted to appease Castro.

The case didn't boil down to that, it boiled down to Clinton kissing Castro's butt.

And where is all this crap about 'great healthcare' coming from? It seems many are eager to believe whatever Castro's propaganda machine pumps out.

If his healthcare is so great, why hospitals in Havana look like this: http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm?

If it's free to all, why are cubans forced to use crappy hospitals such as the one above, and only cash paying tourists get to stay in the nice hospitals?

And why is the Topes de Collantes Tuberculosis Hospital, truly free to all Cubans during Batsita, now only open to wealthy tourists?

Crazed Rabbit

English assassin

10-11-2005, 17:09

And where is all this crap about 'great healthcare' coming from? It seems many are eager to believe whatever Castro's propaganda machine pumps out.

Since you ask, I always source basic country statistics, like life expectancy, from the CIA world fact book. It may well be crap but it saves arguments with right wing American posters.

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 17:18

Nice site Rabbit ~D ~D ~D I do like the page that lists the poor innocent Americans who have been assassinated , executed and disappeared , some great cases there eh ?~;)

And why is the Topes de Collantes Tuberculosis Hospital, truly free to all Cubans during Batsita, now only open to wealthy tourists?

Is that because they have eradicated TB amongst the locals ? And how was it free healthcare to all Cubans under Batista . 78% of the population lived in rural locations , there was only one rural hospital , it had 10 beds there are now 62 rural hospitals. Only 8% of the rural population had access to healthcare .
Since you ask, I always source basic country statistics,
Yeah them statistics can be a bit of a bugger can't they , that infant mortality one should really make Rabbit wonder why his countries is lagging behind Cubas , or the ratio of doctors to patients , or dentists , or world leading medical training institutes . I wonder how much more they could have achieved if it wasn't for the embargo and economic sabotage .

Crazed Rabbit

10-11-2005, 18:15

Since you ask, I always source basic country statistics, like life expectancy, from the CIA world fact book. It may well be crap but it saves arguments with right wing American posters.

I didn't say life expectancy was crap.

Is that because they have eradicated TB amongst the locals ?

If so, why don't they let the locals come in for free anyway? Or do they just declare TB to be eradicated and close the hospital to the locals?

I wonder how much more they could have achieved if it wasn't for the embargo and economic sabotage .

Not much. They're a communist state; they never have good economies.

And are you going to actually try and refute the facts about healthcare on that site? Or just try to dismiss them?

Crazed Rabbit

English assassin

10-11-2005, 18:32

And are you going to actually try and refute the facts about healthcare on that site? Or just try to dismiss them?

Well, since Cuba seems to be doing as well as the US on the basic healthcare outcome measures such as life expectancy and infant mortality, I was rather drawing the global inference that health in Cuba must be pretty good. There may be other reasons to prefer the US to Cuba but health doesn't seem to be one of them.

My broader point was that it appears that whatever it may be Cuba is not a kleptocracy, since there seems to be some reasonable attention being paid to the welfare of the population at large.

Come on, the persistence of a communist regime in Cuba for 40 years, after all that has been thrown at it, does deserve a slightly more thoughtful analysis than the scary ghost noises Idaho rightly identified. Maybe Cubans like it? Maybe Uncle Sam's hosility to ther regime has actually kept it in power? Maybe someone in the White House should be asking themselves these questions?

Tribesman

10-11-2005, 19:07

And are you going to actually try and refute the facts about healthcare on that site? Or just try to dismiss them?

Firstly , what facts ?
Secondly , that site ~D ~D ~D yes it is full of facts :dizzy2:
So far "facts" that you have put forward are ;
Healthcare was free for all under Batista ...False
A hospital for fee paying foriegners is open to fee paying foriegners ...yes well .....that is because they are fee paying foriegners at a fee paying hopital for foriegners :dizzy2:
A site that has some photos , hey I could provide you some nice photos of civilised western hospitals to match those if I had had a camera with me .
So another facts you have put foreward in this thread....
Not only spies, but people who gave flight patterns of a Cuban resistance group operating in international waters to Castro, who had his air force shoot down one of their planes.
...would those be the same flight plans that the "resistance group" have to submit to Havana ATC if they intend to cross the 24th parallel ?
So , it does raise the question , do you understand the meaning of the word "fact" ?

Spino

10-11-2005, 19:18

Come on, the persistence of a communist regime in Cuba for 40 years, after all that has been thrown at it, does deserve a slightly more thoughtful analysis than the scary ghost noises Idaho rightly identified. Maybe Cubans like it? Maybe Uncle Sam's hosility to ther regime has actually kept it in power? Maybe someone in the White House should be asking themselves these questions?

Maybe Cubans like it?!? Chances are that most who don't like it live in fear of recrimination if they speak out against the imperfections of the 'glorious revolution'. You really need to speak with some Cuban families living in Florida on the pros and cons of life in modern Cuba. Many of them, especially the more recent emigres, are all too willing to offer insightful commentary on what life is really like in Cuba. It should come as no surprise that the overwhelming majority of them despise virtually everything associated with Fidel and the revolution. This past summer I had the opportunity to watch "The Motorcycle Diaries" with one Cuban family. Some... err, 'choice' comments were made about Che, especially during the scenes that made him out to be some selfless, messianic figure in the making.

I would agree that the U.S. embargo has probably done more to keep Castro in power and the 'revolution' alive than anything else. Thanks to the embargo Castro has had an easier time controlling what goods can and cannot enter the country. Furthermore the embargo has become a powerful propaganda tool in that it is no doubt cited as the primary cause for all that ails Cuba and the revolution.

When Fidel finally kicks the bucket expect that island to explode in a massive celebration the likes of which have not been seen since the Berlin Wall fell.

Reverend Joe

10-11-2005, 20:55

~:handball:

Kaiser of Arabia

10-11-2005, 23:19

so it seems people outside of the US are not allowed to be content. or at least appear so.
Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 01:28

that infant mortality one should really make Rabbit wonder why his countries is lagging behind Cubas

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

The concept of health is a very broad one and includes not only the biological order of the human being but, by definition, health is the complete biological, psychological and sociological well being of the individual. In other words, the psychological and sociological aspects must be added, inasmuch as the environment and living conditions impact directly on the quality of life of the individual, which is the main objective of a healthcare system.

If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success. However, if we talk about the real meaning of health and delve into all of the aspects that affect man as a social being, then there is no health in Cuba, and the degradation in the quality of life of the Cuban people is the only thing that socialism has achieved.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/nov98/19e1.htm

And take a look at this

Health Care in Cuba: Myth Versus Reality

According to the Pan American Health Organization, the Cuban Government currently devotes a smaller percentage of its budget for health care than such regional countries as Jamaica, Costa Rica, and the Dominican Republic.

http://www.canf.org/Issues/medicalapartheid.htm

Soulforged

10-12-2005, 05:01

I'd disagree with this in principle, but its also worth adding that Castro will die shortly, whereupon Cuba will no doubt be immediately opened up to exploitation by sugar producing multinationals paying well under the US minimum wage, just like the good old days. Why, I bet they'll even have those foreign owned casinos open again soon. So Elian will get his chance to live in a capitalist paradise anyway.Maybe Castro is following actually some real socialist doctrine up there. But I asure you this, if his brother lives long enough until he dies, the goverment will pass to him. If you think that Castro is a "bloody sadist" (:dizzy2: ), then wait for his brother, infamous for being just that, even inside "the family".

Not much. They're a communist state; they never have good economies. YEH!! Sure...errrr....:rolleyes: :hide:

Tribesman

10-12-2005, 07:44

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

Nice cut and paste Gawian , so if you ignore things like infant mortality , life expectancy and healthcare then Cuba doesn't have healthcare ??????
So thats a way of saying yes cuba does have good healthcare but we will ignore that and go on about something else entirely :dizzy2:

English assassin

10-12-2005, 09:26

If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success.

This has to be satire, right? I mean, even I wouldn't have given Cuba such glowing praise as this? This is meant to REFUTE the idea they have good healthcare, or did I misunderstand?

Once again we see how opposites attract, since a similar train of thought equaiting health and the broader economic environment in defiance of the basic facts would have been very familiar to apologists for soviet Russia.

Ser Clegane

10-12-2005, 10:55

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

Curious - what do you mean by that, Gawain? Why do you think do the US have a higher infant mortality rate? ~:confused:

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 15:46

Curious - what do you mean by that, Gawain? Why do you think do the US have a higher infant mortality rate?

Becuse of things like fertility drugs causing multiple births and having women who are past the preffered age of childbaring . Also infant mortality is measured by the number of live births that fail. Here many times labor is induced ay an early stage. It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate not because we are behind.

Infant mortality rate rises in U.S.

Nation's first increase since 1958 surprises federal health officials

By Rob Stein / Washington Post

WASHINGTON — The number of U.S. babies dying shortly after birth has crept up for the first time in more than four decades, federal health officials reported Wednesday.

The cause of the small but disturbing rise remains unclear, but it may be a combination of the surge in older women having babies, the popularity of fertility treatments and, paradoxically, advancements in identifying and saving fetuses in distress, experts said.

Nevertheless, the surprising increase has raised alarm because the infant mortality rate is considered a fundamental measure of a society’s well-being.

“It’s always a matter of concern when an important measure of public health such as infant mortality increases,” said Joyce Martin of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which released the numbers. “It’s so basic. The saving of young lives is important to everyone.”

The increase was particularly unexpected because it comes as a number of other important measures of the nation’s health continued long-term positive trends. The overall U.S. death rate has been dropping, as have the rates from the leading causes of mortality: heart disease, stroke, accidents and cancer. And U.S. life expectancy has reached a new high: 77.4 years.

The United States has long had one of the highest infant mortality rates among developed countries, and the rate had either declined or remained steady every year since 1958. So government scientists were caught off guard when a preliminary analysis of the most recent data showed that the infant mortality rate had inched up 3 percent, climbing from 6.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in 2001 to 7.0 deaths in 2002.

“I have to say, it was a surprise,” said Martin, lead statistician for the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the CDC. “We weren’t expecting it.”

A follow-up analysis confirmed that the increase would hold true in the final numbers. When researchers parsed the data, they found the increase was caused by a jump in deaths in the first week of life among babies who were born with birth defects, were unusually small, or were born to mothers who had complications during their pregnancies, such as high blood pressure or diabetes, Martin said.

Because the number of babies who are being born early has increased in recent years, the findings suggest that trend could be driving the uptick in infant mortality, Martin said.

Nice cut and paste Gawian , so if you ignore things like infant mortality , life expectancy and healthcare then Cuba doesn't have healthcare ??????
So thats a way of saying yes cuba does have good healthcare but we will ignore that and go on about something else entirely

Maybe you should re read it. Theres more to healthcare than just taking care of bodily illnesses.

English assassin

10-12-2005, 15:52

It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate (of infant mortality) not because we are behind

Theres more to healthcare than just taking care of bodily illnesses.

OK, this thread has taken leave of its senses, fair enough.

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 16:04

OK, this thread has taken leave of its senses, fair enough.

So peoples mental state has nothing to do with healthcare. And Im surprised you dont understand my point on infant mortality. If you try to do harder things theres more chances of you failing.

Ser Clegane

10-12-2005, 17:14

Becuse of things like fertility drugs causing multiple births and having women who are past the preffered age of childbaring . Also infant mortality is measured by the number of live births that fail. Here many times labor is induced ay an early stage. It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate not because we are behind.

Fair point - but it does not really explain why the infant mortality rate is significantly above the rate for most other major Western countries.

I do not think that the resaon you give above is enough to explain these differences (as these are trends you have in other developed nations as well).
However, neither do I believe that it has to do with hospitals being not as good in the US as in e.g., Western european nations - I think when you compare "normal" hospitals (not the top-notch ones) they are pretty much on the same level.

This is slightly OT, but I am genuinely interested to understand the reason why the mortality rate differs so much.

solypsist

10-12-2005, 17:34

I'm probably the only person in this thread who has been there (maybe Idaho has been there, I dunno). And yet everyone seems to be more "in the know" about the place than everyone else.

In 1998 I spent 4 months there with an Olympics team on training (I documented them, I didn't train). Felt like parts of Miami. I'm sure there are plenty of run-down areas, but then again, it's those parts that made it feel like Miami - parts of it also felt like parts of Newark. That said, I wouldn't want to live there, but then again I don't want to live in a lot of places (like New Jersey).

Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.

AggonyKing

10-12-2005, 18:20

Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.I lived in Cuba all my childhood and I was pretty happy. You see we make fun of everything, even if our current situation is as bad as it is now, we still laugh about it and make silly jokes.

I live in Los Angeles now, I can say I'm happy living here, but one of the things I miss is what I said up there ^^^:bow:

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 18:25

I lived in Cuba all my childhood and I was pretty happy

Until what age? Were you ever in a hospital in either country. If so which do you think has better ones in general? Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured they could have such glowing healt statistics. Who gathers this information and how about suchthings around the world? Can we believe the statistics coming from Cuba or are they supplied by the Cuban government?

AggonyKing

10-12-2005, 18:39

Until what age?13

Were you ever in a hospital in either country. If so which do you think has better ones in general? I was never in a hospital, although I almost had to go once, because of atsma, but never did. Doctors are going to Venezuela. There's really a shortage of medicine. I mean, you got to keep your best friend happy *cough* Hugo *cough*

Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I went back to CUba recently, and all I can say that all the money is going to tourism. Buildings outside Habana are all rundown. After the cat. 5 hurricane, the govt really has done nothing to help those who lost their homes.

I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured they could have such glowing health statistics. Who gathers this information and how about such things around the world? This statistics can be true, but if the Cuban govt. released them, don't believe all that you read from them. In Cuba is basically germ country. It helps create a better immunity against diseases but still more protection will be better. Like now there's a small epidemic of a fever, but yet you don't hear about it ~;)

Can we believe the statistics coming from Cuba or are they supplied by the Cuban government?answer in above question ^^^

Tribesman

10-12-2005, 18:57

Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured
Oh Gawain , for Gods sake look through that site before you even give any more thought to the pictures that are posted on it .
It provided me with more laughs than any other I have read this week (apart from a neo-nazi one that someone here mentioned where they were discussing the middle-east) . It is so shoddy with its presentation of "facts" and use of photos depicting things that they clearly don't depict that I thought it was a satire , until I read the feedback page where the author goes into racist rants and labels people fascists and Nazis if they dare to disagree with him .

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 22:32

Oh Gawain , for Gods sake look through that site before you even give any more thought to the pictures that are posted on it .

For Gods sake tribesman I said I find it hard to believe those pictures represent what hospitals are really like there .What seems to be your problem?

Tribesman

10-12-2005, 22:58

Just pointing out that it was a completely biased site that had great difficulty in reporting "facts" , nothing at all like the Cuban American Foundation which is reknowned for it unbiased objectivity towards the current regime .~;)
But you are right Gawain you did say
I find it hard to believe those pictures represent what hospitals are really like there .
So sorry ,that must show how blatantly false the majority of that site is .

Now as for Elain .
Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?
Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?
Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 23:06

Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?
Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?
Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

I believe Cubans are in a different category. If Merxico really wants to export its people to the US they should form a communist government.~D

Tribesman

10-12-2005, 23:23

If Merxico really wants to export its people to the US they should form a communist government.
I thought they had in the South , how are the peace talks/power sharing going .

Louis VI the Fat

10-12-2005, 23:34

Kaiser of Arabia

10-12-2005, 23:45

I'm probably the only person in this thread who has been there (maybe Idaho has been there, I dunno). And yet everyone seems to be more "in the know" about the place than everyone else.

In 1998 I spent 4 months there with an Olympics team on training (I documented them, I didn't train). Felt like parts of Miami. I'm sure there are plenty of run-down areas, but then again, it's those parts that made it feel like Miami - parts of it also felt like parts of Newark. That said, I wouldn't want to live there, but then again I don't want to live in a lot of places (like New Jersey).
Hah, must have been before it was illegal to go there, huh?

Besides, New Jersey is a great state. Newark a great city. Get over your New Yorker superiority complex, we're much better. Especially in the food department, you don't need to be a millionaire to get a half decent Calzone or Pie with Gabagool in Jersey.

Redleg

10-12-2005, 23:46

Now as for Elain .
Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings. A large percentage of those given such a ticket do not show for their scheduled court date - I wonder why? :dizzy2:

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?

Immigrantion courts are known for doing some really stupid things.

Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.

Gawain of Orkeny

10-12-2005, 23:51

Besides, New Jersey is a great state. Newark a great city. Get over your New Yorker superiority complex, we're much better.

Get real Kaiser. Your just another suburb of the greatest city in the world.~D

Kaiser of Arabia

10-12-2005, 23:58

Get real Kaiser. Your just another suburb of the greatest city in the world.~D
*is eating a Canolli that he got for about $0.01*

Huh?

Nah, you're right. North Jersey is more or less part of New York anyway, but on a budget ~D Alot more cheap, plus I can think of alot of good Italian Food places in Jersey.

Little Italy owns all though. 2nd best Pizza on earth (1st is Benny Tudino's in Hoboken), best bakery (Ferrarra's), best Mobsters (Vinny the Chin, enough said), best festivals (The feats, or the San Generro Feast for all you non-Italians), and the best Italians. ~:)

Tribesman

10-13-2005, 00:11

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Really , I got it from an anti castro Cuban/American site where they were on about the '94 changes to the INS proceedings which came in after the record 37,000 illegals made the crossing , differentiationg between those that were stopped at sea and were no longer entitled and those who had made it to land who were entitled, hence the wet/dry .
Or are you referring to the usual American derogatory term for Mexican illegal immigrants which features the word "wet" but with a diffent body part added ?

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings.
And in this case the fidings of the INS were~;)

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.
Yeah I can really see it , all the media , all the high brow lawyers , all the vocal politicians , oh and of course the local resident terrorist groups , yep it would really be the same~D

Gawain of Orkeny

10-13-2005, 00:19

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

I think your thinking of the term "Wetback" that is as old as the hills and is indeed a very derogatory name for Mexican immigrants.

Main Entry: wet·back
Pronunciation: 'wet-"bak
Function: noun
Etymology: from the practice of wading or swimming the Rio Grande where it forms the U.S.-Mexico border
usually offensive : a Mexican who enters the U.S. illegally

Tribesman

10-13-2005, 00:21

I think your thinking of the term "Wetback"
Hmmm... must type faster eh Gawain ...see above

Redleg

10-13-2005, 00:23

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Or are you referring to the usual American derogatory term for Mexican illegal immigrants which features the word "wet" but with a diffent body part added ?

That is the term that is batted around the West with some frequency toward the illegal immigrants that come across the border via Mexico - not all of them are Mexican by the way - a good precentage come from other Central and South American Countries.

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings.
And in this case the fidings of the INS were~;)

I will let you decide - I already know my decision on that - parential rights mean something regardless of what country the parents are from.

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.
Yeah I can really see it , all the media , all the high brow lawyers , all the vocal politicians , oh and of course the local resident terrorist groups , yep it would really be the same~D

Minus the high brow lawyers and the local resident terrorist groups (well maybe not - we just call them criminal gangs here in Texas :dizzy2: ) and you might just be surprised how much it will be covered in the Regional Area - it would require you to read some local news from the South-West states. Considering Texas is close to 50% Hispanic along with New Mexico, Arizona and California all having as large or larger Hispanic communities such a news story would create lots of interest in this part of the United States.

Tribesman

10-13-2005, 00:37

such a news story would create lots of interest in this part of the United States.
There you go , a local issue not a national one .
I will let you decide - I already know my decision on that - parential rights mean something regardless of what country the parents are from.

Thats not what I asked , though we can both agree on the parental rights .
I asked about the INS finding , which also for some strange reason decided that parental rights mean something.

Oh , and was I very much incorrect or correct in my use of derogatory terms ?~;)

a good precentage come from other Central and South American Countries.

I know a lot of Europeans who used that route , and the Phillipines used to be a good one aswell . Whereas Canada was a better route for the overstays .

edit to add "mean something" in the appropriate place

Redleg

10-13-2005, 00:58

such a news story would create lots of interest in this part of the United States.
There you go , a local issue not a national one .

Oh it would have made national news to - but it would have never been covered to the extent that some Irishman in Ireland would of ever noticed the story. ~:eek:

I will let you decide - I already know my decision on that - parential rights mean something regardless of what country the parents are from.

Thats not what I asked , though we can both agree on the parental rights .
I asked about the INS finding , which also for some strange reason decided that parental rights mean something.

What you don't like cyptic answers that are only partial answer to the question you asked?

Maybe you shouldn't do it either then.

But yes parential rights was the issue and INS made the right decision is saying that Elian Gonzalez needed to be returned to his father. The method that the state decided to inforce the ruling is what I have issue with.

Oh , and was I very much incorrect or correct in my use of derogatory terms ?~;)

All depending on how you wanted to use it. The court ruling using "wetfoot" might have been stated - I have never bothered to concern myself with Cuban exiles and their illegal immigrantion - I count the illegal immigriantion of Cubans the same as that which is occuring everyday not 300 miles from my home - along the over 300 miles or is it closer to 500 miles of border the state of Texas shares with Mexico.

a good precentage come from other Central and South American Countries.

I know a lot of Europeans who used that route , and the Phillipines used to be a good one aswell . Whereas Canada was a better route for the overstays .

Couldn't be that many Europeans since the percentage is rather small of the estimated and know crossings of illegals. :dizzy2:

Crazed Rabbit

10-13-2005, 19:10

Well looky, looky. It seems Costa Rica has a life expectancy of 77 years. El Salvador has 71 years. Nicaragua has 70 years. And they did it without having to bend under the thumb of a dictator.

If health is the only plus for Cuba, it is foolish to praise them for only achieving that and nothing else.

Crazed Rabbit

Tribesman

10-13-2005, 22:41

And they did it without having to bend under the thumb of a dictator.

~D ~D ~D
you really crack me up .
One of those was a dictatorship for a hell of a long time and another was run by the military as an Authoritarian State for over 50 years , both underwent a massive healthcare development program AFTER the really , honestly , very nice rulers were finally got rid of .
And guess what , both regimes together with all their corruption , human rights abuses and lack of democracy were supported by your Government~:eek:
And to top it all off your government went to great lengths to undermine the people who got rid of those "evil" regimes .

So lets see , to sum up your points so far (though I notice you havn't even bothered to readdress your earlier statements that have been shown as lacking in facts) if you will permit me to paraphrase your position.....

Cuba is bad as it has a dictator and it doesn't have healthcare , but it does have healthcare despite having a dictator so I am really opposed to dictators regardless of the healthcare because I and my government don't like dictators.............Looky at these governments they have healthcare and they are not dictatorships , but when they were dictatorships they didn't have healthcare , but healthcare isn't important and I and my government like dictatorships .~:cheers: