View Full Version : barmy schools plan
English assassin
10-11-2005, 16:03
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4330806.stm
By the end of this third term, I [Blair] want every school that wants to be to be able to be an independent, non fee-paying state school, with the freedom to innovate and develop in the way it wants and the way the parents of the school want, subject to certain common standards."
The forthcoming White Paper from the Education Secretary Ruth Kelly is expected to suggest ways in which schools can innovate and which parents can have more choice.
Do my ears deceive me? A Labour government is going to impliment what was basically the Tory education policy at the 2001 election, ie abolish LEAs in all but name?
Have they gone mad? I couldn't bring myself to defend that policy when it was ours, because it was so obviously not going to work. Who was going to plan to match numbers of places to children? Who was going to look after special educational needs? Where were all the extra thousands of switched on governors etc going to come from when each school was essentially a stand alone business? What were we going to do when "parental choice" turned out to mean "mono-ethnic fundamentalist religious schools"?
OK, the Labour government is now officially more right wing than I am. More stupid too, but then I already knew that.
Nothing wrong with this in theory. If my school had kicked out about three kids from my year I would have had a much better time at school. But they couldn't because of stupid government targets. So they stayed in school until they failed their GCSEs.
Big King Sanctaphrax
10-11-2005, 16:32
This whole parent choice idea is complete rubbish. Parents are going to choose-suprise, suprise-the best schools. So, assuming the schools aren't improved, nothing's going to change. You're just going to have the better schools able to pick who goes to them, and the pupils they discard being forced to go to sinkholes no-one wants to touch.
I suppose it will prevent people moving into catchment areas and stealing places, but I don't think that's that serious a problem anyway. The solution is to actually make schools better, rather than setting up fudges like this.
English assassin
10-11-2005, 16:45
This whole parent choice idea is complete rubbish. Parents are going to choose-suprise, suprise-the best schools. So, assuming the schools aren't improved, nothing's going to change. You're just going to have the better schools able to pick who goes to them, and the pupils they discard being forced to go to sinkholes no-one wants to touch
In a nutshell. At the risk of repeating myself, the idea of choice and a market to drive up standards is fine, IF you are willing to let the market do its thing. That means bad providers have to be allowed to fail and collapse.
Now that's OK for something like a sandwich shop but its a bit tough on the kids who happen to be at the school while it is failing and collapsing. Sure, a better school may emerge in five years time, but that won't help them much unless they feel like being the only 23 year olds in sixth form. And they can't go to the better schools now because (and now I am repeating myself) schools aren't scalable. There are only so many children a good teacher can teach, only so many classes a good headteacher can manage, and so on.
Geoffrey S
10-11-2005, 16:49
It seems to be the Labour Party's style nowadays, to edge in on what would traditionally be Tory policies. The way this policy would work would divide schools ever more sharply into the 'good' and the 'bad' schools, with bad schools struggling to keep up.
Duke Malcolm
10-11-2005, 17:02
Tsk Tsk, Tony's stealing Tory plots... Some independence to schools would not be altogether bad, but complete control isn't good, especially if they abolish the LEA. It must be better than what they are doing up here, though. They are abolishing the school boards, and making a city-wide (or region-wide, I think) forum of parents with no actual power and a mere advisory role...
King Henry V
10-11-2005, 17:23
Damn it, I say bring back grammar schools and sencondary moderns, and those going to grammar should be the only ones allowed to get into proper universities, not glorified polytechnics such as Bournemouth and Luton.
Damn it, I say bring back grammar schools and sencondary moderns, and those going to grammar should be the only ones allowed to get into proper universities, not glorified polytechnics such as Bournemouth and Luton.
Perhaps a system with an academic route and a more practical route wouldn't be too bad an idea. I don't see why just because you were sent to the wrong one you should be barred from university if it turns out you're a genius.
Duke Malcolm
10-11-2005, 17:38
But don't they send you to them based on one's academic skills?
King Henry V
10-11-2005, 18:22
Perhaps a system with an academic route and a more practical route wouldn't be too bad an idea. I don't see why just because you were sent to the wrong one you should be barred from university if it turns out you're a genius.
I agree with you there, there should be schools where pupils can learn practical subjects (metallurgy, plombing, electric engineering, building etc.) and then go on to apprenticeships. Would help a great deal with the skills shortage.
But don't they send you to them based on one's academic skills?
Yes, but I don't think you're ever going to be able 2 tell exactly how everything turns out at 11...
I agree with you there, there should be schools where pupils can learn practical subjects (metallurgy, plombing, electric engineering, building etc.) and then go on to apprenticeships. Would help a great deal with the skills shortage.
And stop people wasting years doing GCSEs they get no credit for because they fail.
RabidGibbon
10-11-2005, 21:19
Posted by BDC
And stop people wasting years doing GCSEs they get no credit for because they fail.
Amen. My sister teaches in a inner city secondary school, and she says theirs nothing more annoying than the disruptive kids in the lower forms, who know theyre going to fail, know their not learning anything their going to use in later life and so spend all their time messing about.
Ahh, schools and labour, a combination I could argue abot for the rest of eternity. Anyways, suffice to say I don't go to a sink school. But I still fail to see how this barmy plan could possibly work.
On the note of doing GCSEs and not getting credit, you have to really try to fail there. There are all kinds of joke subjects to help you reach for 5Cs targets, as well as NVQ general science, which offends me (iirc 4 GCSE passes, I take triple science and can only get 3...ok, they could all be A*s but still, only 3 as opposed to 4.) Then there's subjects like general studies, photocopying (honest) and media studies to pass the time pointlessly. And one that really gets me...a double award GCSE for life and work skills (and I wonder what the bugging heck they teach there...jack all)
BKSas usual smacks the nail on the head better then I could in less words. The best schools are ridiculously oversubscribed, the worst schools...they're worse then prison by a mile. So I mean, seriously, all these silyl initiatives evidently don't work. How about something revolutionary, trying to get some real results that don't come from fiddling. It might be a long hard slog and there ain't no magic bullets. But it's sure as heck better thne what we have now
Craterus
10-11-2005, 21:57
(iirc 4 GCSE passes, I take triple science and can only get 3...ok, they could all be A*s but still, only 3 as opposed to 4.)
The GNVQ's are basically equivalent to 4 C's, IIRC. I'd rather have 3 A's over 4 C's anyday.
Do you honestly think employers are going to value GNVQ science higher grade passes over good separate (triple, same thing) science grades?
Papewaio
10-11-2005, 22:00
But don't they send you to them based on one's academic skills?
Actually some of my best Physics profs were tradesmen first and then academics later in life.
Academic skills are not to different from sports skill. You might be the star athlete at primary school and the fatso beside you can only hit air, turn 25 and you can barely do a pushup while your fate mate is now a star winger...
Up the pay and standards of teachers. Make parents get more involved. The kids who do the best have a very high correlation with the parents who are involved the most. So maybe a few more report cards on parents and teachers are needed.
The GNVQ's are basically equivalent to 4 C's, IIRC. I'd rather have 3 A's over 4 C's anyday.
Do you honestly think employers are going to value GNVQ science higher grade passes over good separate (triple, same thing) science grades?
Would a university even let you in for a science course with science GNVQ over GCSEs?
At my school they included GNVQs in the GCSE levels, so the people who got all the awards for achievement were the ones who sat GNVQs. Go my school. Hence the 10 best at A level will contain no one from the 10 best at GCSE. Silly system.
The GNVQ's are basically equivalent to 4 C's, IIRC. I'd rather have 3 A's over 4 C's anyday.
Do you honestly think employers are going to value GNVQ science higher grade passes over good separate (triple, same thing) science grades?
So would I but the fact remains he's nearer to his 5 GCSEs then I am despite the fact his exams are way easier then mine. That's plain silly. Same with all these made up GCSEs. I think they're just there to help people get their requisite 5 GCSEs to be called a Success...but back onto the topic
Duke Malcolm
10-12-2005, 17:55
What are GNVQs? We don't have them this far North...
Ianofsmeg16
10-12-2005, 19:08
I really don't get this...are they allowing schools to teach whatever and whoever they want?
i say kick all the thugs/bullies out of school and stop with this "everyone's good even when they bully people and purposly try and fail GCSE"
It's 5 GCSE's to pass isnt it? thats what we were told last year (year 10)
p.s. on the subject of GCSE's i hate them! as a GCSE student i cannot wait to see if i get into A level. BTW who's doing GCSE this year here at the org? what subjects are you taking etc..
GNVQs are easier, more ''practical'' and applied subjects.
I'm taking 6 GCSEs early, english lit and lang, french, RS, music chinese and maths. The pressure is getting to me and I'm starting to feel a bit off colour
I'm in Year Ten now, and am taking single science, english, french, history, geography, latin, history, ancient greek and RS.
Craterus
10-14-2005, 23:52
Year 10 here too.
I'll be taking English Lit, History and German early.
I'm also doing a modular spearate science course, and the first tests are in the first few weeks of November ~:eek:
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