Q for Barocca

[Lord Krazy]

Bar,
did I read somewhere that you had
added your naggies to MTW?

LK

[barocca]

yes,
but i had to sacrifice a unit to do so, because the game won't recognise additional bif folders...
the only thing i have not worked out is the stats,

using a similar tactic to the one the developers used to make the mongols (multiple units per bif file, which is also how I added the Original Naginata back into Warlords)
We could, with a heck of a lot of work, add new units to existing bif files...

I am hoping the developers have made it possible to add complete new bif folders to MTW with the patch, but i am truly not holding my breath...

[Lord Krazy]

I was wondering because when I put the
musket from shogi it won't stand still
now I have not put to much time in to
the shogi thing and to save me time
can you send me the actionspage and
weapons folder you used for the conversion
or did you just add walk and stand in
the right places.The reason I ask is that
did not work perfectly for the musket guys.

We have made alot of progress with the
roman unit on version alfa0.4 now ,beta next.
Stupid question I know but how do I
post a screen shot?
Then you can see how they look.

Please don't hold your breath ,I like
you too much http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[barocca]

i placed the nagi bif in the PlateS folder,
and added an entry for them in the unit_prod file,

but i had to rename the Nagi bifs to PlateS because of the recognition "error"

meaning i had to "sacrifice" the PlateS unit....

here's the actions page,

walk
11 53 54 64 78 124
16 55 0 130 29 190
17 55 227 196 255 255
13 54 137 63 161 122
run
11 57 28 64 52 127
14 57 108 63 135 124
15 56 31 129 66 190
9 54 80 63 106 122
idle
11 57 0 64 23 128
18 57 65 0 94 61
18 56 157 0 188 61
11 53 68 134 92 192
die
25 45 94 137 138 192
26 43 197 142 256 194
23 41 140 144 195 195
21 42 114 197 159 255
charge
11 57 28 64 52 127
14 57 108 63 135 124
15 56 31 129 66 190
9 54 80 63 106 122
fight
19 54 0 192 50 255
29 54 96 0 155 61
32 52 0 0 63 62
20 47 216 58 255 116

this was on my Mtw demo backup CD2,
you know with all the fiddling we did with the demo i have THREE FULL CD's of files!!!
( 2 full modded variants of the demo on each CD - plus all our notes and rantings.. )

[Lord Krazy]

thank you .

this is what I did with the other guys
but they kept pointing thier guns everywhere
a bit like elmo after too much moonshine
(maybe I could use them as the elmohead
royal musketiers) he he.

LK
(all the rants too he he)

[barocca]

musketeers in shoggy also have another set of images - i think they are LBM's for the firing sequence,
have not looked at this for mtw,
suspect firing of weapons may be different in mtw,
also crossbows firing animation in WE/MI was not very pretty...

[Lord Krazy]

In mtw they just follow the bif .
I'm having a problem implementing
the weapons for new weapons,
well not so much a problem
as I'v learned to live with the fact
I'm stupid but I still can't figure
out how to keep the perspective when
my musketiers(abuiesqer with new gun)
fight with thier bayonettes.I have a few
solutions but they all require more
work then needed I'm sure.
I'll post him in a day or too when
I'v made some adjustments I'll
include a readme with problems encountered
and how or how I did not get around them.
Lot's of work still to be done.
It's a shame really that I will spend
the next 2 months working this out
when someone from CA could tell us in
one post.At least they tell us other stuff.
C ya
LK.

[This message has been edited by Lord Krazy (edited 10-09-2002).]

[barocca]

if i remember rightly i had to shuffle the groups of action lines around a little,
they are in a slightly different order to stw...

[Lord Krazy]

Quote Originally posted by barocca:
if i remember rightly i had to shuffle the groups of action lines around a little,
they are in a slightly different order to stw...[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------
great!I mean that in every sence of the word.
shit!see above
LK

[barocca]

*sigh*

you need to order the lines by action,

i think it was front (0 degree), forward (45 degree),
rear (135 degree) and back (180 degree)

as for the current stw line ordering within the action page that is buried somewhere in the notes and guide i wrote,
you've already got a copy of the guide?

i'm fairly certain all you will need to do is loacte the current action/view block (4 lines for each)
and then simply cut and paste them into the mtw order..((remeber the text strings for each action block in mtw too))

ie (THIS IS EXAMPLE _ NOT SOLUTION)
stw:- stand(4 lines) walk(4 lines) run(4 lines) etc...
becomes
mtw:- walk(4 lines) run(4 lines) charge(4 lines) etc...

[This message has been edited by barocca (edited 10-10-2002).]

[Lord Krazy]

I know all this thanks
but I think some of the
angles are different per line
as I said did't put too much time in to
that one but I will seen
as some of the missing links
may be there I hope.
Did you see the problems I
had with the negrospearmen?

LK http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Wellington]

Barraco/LK,

I think you may be looking at the wrong files if your problems are concerned with rendering the weapons images on the figure images.

The 'actions' pages you are specifying have little to do with this. You can of course change the first 2 parameters in the lines defining the weapons/shields origin in the specific file (and specific action) for the unit text file in the 'ActionPage' folder - but this would only serve to reposition every weapon/shield defined on all images, on all frames, for every camera angle, for that unit.

If you have a problem with weapons 'dissappearing' then try changing the last parameter, in all of the 48 lines (for the action)in the relavent weapon1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 folder to a 0 - as opposed to a 1. At least then you can see whether or not your weapon is dissapearing due to the actual figure image being rendered after the weapon (thus causing the weapon to be hidden by the figure as the weapon positioning coords for that image/camera angle/frame are not correct).

(BTW - I'm still trying to document all the animation stuff for MTW. I'll post something to start with tomoorow and you guys can then add your bits).

[Lord Krazy]

I know this too but my problem is to
make some of the weapons stay in
perspective when they fight for example.
Now I can make a peseant or a negrospearman
to fight with a sword and keep it in pespective but when I make an arquebus
fight with his gun he holds it too far
up the gun ,this is of course when I
make him use the action of the pikeman
if u know what I mean.
I know this has also to do with
the _W.txt the last 2 numbers are
for length and depth and thus
changing the perameters.

If you know the exact peramiters of the
weapons page then we are sorted
because we know most everything else
and if you do post them NOW!
ok
Thank you.

LK

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
I know this too but my problem is to
make some of the weapons stay in
perspective when they fight for example.
Now I can make a peseant or a negrospearman
to fight with a sword and keep it in pespective but when I make an arquebus
fight with his gun he holds it too far
up the gun ,this is of course when I
make him use the action of the pikeman
if u know what I mean.[/QUOTE]

Using the pikeman params in ActionPage may not be suitable for a figure with a smaller weapon. This is because the xy-origin for the image (an arbitary reference point in the image - which is used to position shields/weapons on an image, relative to this xy-origin) may be too high up the image.

For pikemen fighting the parms are -

fight
14 44 219 1 169 31
13 43 25 89 55 140
15 42 212 131 164 172
19 41 49 142 1 182

The xy-origins for each of these 4 camera-angle images are 14,44 13,43 15,42 19,41.

Think of the xy-origin as 0,0 in the image - a reference point for the rendering of weapons/shields.

The xy-origin is different for every action/camera-action image - but it is THE SAME for all 12 frames defining an 'action sequence' If you change the xy-origin you will change the position of all weapons/shields on all of 12 frames.

Therefore some fine tuning in terms of weapon/shields positioning is required on a FRAME by FRAME basis.

This fine turning (per single frame) is the purpose of the 9 parameters in a shields file and the 5 paramters in a weapons file.

These parameters amend the xy-coords of the images weapon/shield for a specific frame and they are defined as 'xy-origin-modifiers' relative to the xy-origin. Thos xy-origin is 0,0 - this is why some values are negative. They are relative to the xy-origin and NOT the image-rectangle origin.


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
I know this has also to do with
the _W.txt the last 2 numbers are
for length and depth and thus
changing the perameters.[/QUOTE]

The last 2 numbers in '_W' only serve to resize rescale a weapons size relative to a figure image. It has nothing to do with weapons positioning on the figure image.

eg: in weapons.txt in Peasants folder -

line 6: 125,252,254,254,3,1 (spear)
line 7: 125,252,254,254,5,1 (pike)

The same image is used for spear and pike - but the 3,5 parms define the size ratio of these 2 weapons relative to the figure (3:5).


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
If you know the exact peramiters of the
weapons page then we are sorted
because we know most everything else
and if you do post them NOW!
ok
Thank you.

LK[/QUOTE]

48 lines per file. 4 sets of 12 parameters - each 'set' pertaining to each of the 12 frames required for any camera-angle/action image.

There are 2 pairs of xy-modifers - for the top left hand corner and for the bottom right hand corner of the weapon image. These values are MODIFIERS that serve to define the size/orientation/perspective of the weapon on any single frame.

These values are relative to the xy-origin of the specific figure (ie: 0,0) - hence negative values.

The last number 0 or 1 determines whether the figure or weapon gets rendered first.

[Wellington]

LK,

Think of it like this -

All images (figures/weapons/shields/mounts) are defined as rectangles thge numbers being relative to the top left hand corner of the BIF (1,1). So all numbers are positive.

If we changed the system and said we want to define all rectangles relative to the centre of the BIF (128,128) then the origin is still 0,0 but we'd have to use negative numbers in order to specify some points/pixels.

This is how it works when positioning weapons/shields on an image. The xy-origin is now in the 'middle' of the image - NOT in the top left hand corner!

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
LK & B will love this
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
excellent!!!

[Wellington]

LK,

To illustrate, make a backup of the \Textures\Men\Items\Weapon7\Pikemen\stand.txt file.

Replace the 48 lines with -

9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
10 -21 9 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1
9 -21 10 0 1


Then see what happens with the pike when the pikemen are standing still.

Compare the changed stand.txt with the original - not a lot of changes really. really.

[Lord Krazy]

Thank's I just got back I'll check this out
and get back to u.I have not read it yet so not sure if it's what I want yet,but the
effort alone deserves thank's.

C ya soon,

LK

[Lord Krazy]

Welly,
yes this is exactly what I am talking
about.Thank you very much.It's a shame
you don't draw, maybe we could cox you.

LK

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
Welly,
yes this is exactly what I am talking
about.Thank you very much.It's a shame
you don't draw, maybe we could cox you.
LK[/QUOTE]

Yep it IS a shame. My xy-coords for artistic qualities start at 0 and end at -1!

However, as your doing a lot of image changes with different weapons/shields, if you ever need someone to do some fine-tuning for positioning objects on the figure frames (ie: the weapon and shields text files for the action) then I don't mind helping out. Let me know.

One thing to note if your doing new weapons images. Sometimes it may be better to define a weapon as a shield. This is because an 'object' defined as a weapon has only 2 pairs of xy-coords (you can modify the length only) whilst an 'object' defined as a shield has 4 pairs (you can modify both length and breadth - allowing you greater flexability in terms of perspective).

That is why all crossbow 'objects' are defined in MTW as shields - and NOT weapons!

regards,

Wellington (or 'welly' to you!)

[Lord Krazy]

Thanks Welly ,
I tell you what ,we have put a pretty nice
musket with a bayonette in the hplarm bif I'll send it to you and you can finish it off.

I couldn't quite figure out where the
center was before and I was hoping CA
would answere my questions before I spent too much time on it ,but you will do
fine thanks.Nice one.

I'll wait for a reply before sending the
bif.

If you were able to do this it would save so much time and we could produce alot more
animations.

I can also show you some tricks that
do not need an artist to perform.
Let's face it I can do it and I ain't
no artist.

Cheers,

LK

[Wellington]

Great LK,

Send me the low-res BIF frames (maybe 200-300K), the ActionPage definition for the unit, the '_W' and '_S' values defined in the generic folder for the specific unit, and the current weapon(x) and shield(x) files for that unit's 'objects'.

As you obviously know 'whats going on', send me whatever else you feel is relevent.

(Note: I've not yet ascertained the purpose of the 'Weapons.txt' and 'Shields.txt' folders within the Items folder. I suspect they are NOT used - but I've yet to 'prove' this)

Let me know, in a brief Readme, what you want to achieve and I'll play around with the weapons/shields positioning until it looks "OK". Obviously there may be a bit of 'trial and error' in terms of how you 'image/unit,amendment/creation' guys want to see the end result.

I'll happily tweak the values for 'object' positioning, per action, in order to achieve what you guys want - and send the new positions back to you for your perusal/comments/approval.

I don't know how you guy's deal with transferal of files when your working on any specific project - via the Org - via E-mails. Does'nt really matter, let me know.

Feel free to send me stuff via my E-mail address (alan.tipping@wxs.nl).

On a final note it feels good to be able to contribute, in whatever small way, to the efforts you guys have been making in modding the TW series. It's nice to be able to make a contribution ....

... AND - it would be really great to involve more people in this type of workload.

Give me the stuff - I'll do my best.

regards,
Wellington

[Lord Krazy]

ok welly ,
just got back GF and all that,
have not read other posts yet
but I agree with theory on
weapons folder accept I
just had a tought dahh
I have played without the folders present
in the demo and did notice
some affects but I did a lot of mucking
around so he , but in full version yet
is it a dummy for testing or a hardcoded
file for something or is it just
examples for us to make new units
which I have done .

I meant to ask about this a long time ago
but forgot.Must check .

I do understand everything your talking
about and I will send all relavant files
don't worry about that.

Thank you Welly

btw do you fancy a little Waterloo?

LK

[Lord Krazy]

welly u have mail.

LK

[Wellington]

Got it LK,

I'm 'playing about' with it already.

VERY NICE musket image http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Well done!

I'll send you new coordinates before the end of this week. Any other correspondence re your hard work I'll do via E-mail rather than this thread.

I'm also 'struggling' (in terms of copious writing) in order to get enough info on the animation thread. Hopefully, this may prick enough interest for modders (new or established) to 'have a go'. Maybe we can get more guys interested in helping out with the workload for the various ongoing projects.

regards,
Wellington

[Stefan the Berserker]

Errrr?????

And how do I now convert data from MTW to Shogun? Did not understand that much...

How can I put animate MTW's LBMs and Bif in Shogun? I have a lot of Nummbers read and so...

How to put MTW-Info of die.txt, walk.txt, fight.txt and so on into Ashi.txt and AshiPage.txt???

Or in which Order I have to put the Nummbers???