View Full Version : Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2005, 14:49
A few points about the Venezuelan leader, not the immigrant unionist.
Somebody should create a new international award for economic incompetence -- the Lebon Prize, or Nobel spelled backward -- and give it to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
Whatever you think of his politics -- and he has some redeeming points, such as having given a voice to the large masses of poverty-ridden Venezuelans who were largely ignored by a corrupt political class -- Chavez can claim the dubious achievement of having increaseed Venezuela's poverty despite the country's biggest oil boom in recent decades.
In March, Venezuela's official National Institute of Statistics (INE) had reported that poverty rose by 10 percent during Chavez' first five years in office. Several international institutions have reported equally negative figures.
The INE said that poverty in Venezuela rose from 43 percent to 53percent between 1999 and December 2004. Subsequently, Chavez lashed out against the INE, saying that it reflected the international "neoliberal" standards of measuring poverty, which he said were not suitable for a "socialist" country such as Venezuela.
But now, other international organizations -- including the United Nations and the World Bank -- are painting a similar picture of Venezuela's social involution. As strange as it sounds, they say poverty is rising in Venezuela despite the fact that world oil prices have soared from $8 a barrel when Chavez took office in 1999 to about $62 a barrel today. That's no minor detail; 80% of Venezuela's foreign income comes from its oil exports....
So why is it then that Chavez is so popular in Venezuela, you may be asking. The latest polls show that the leftist president is likely to win, hands down, upcoming legislative elections and the 2006 presidential election.
Many opposition leaders say the polls are controlled by the government, or reflect widespread intimidation, and that Chavez won the 2004 referendum thanks to fraud. But while the rules were bent to favor Chavez, there is no smoking gun yet to contradict Carter Center and Organization of American States election observer's assessment that Chavez won the actual vote.
Chavez may still be ahead in opinion polls because, with a nearly eight-fold increase in his country's oil income, he is giving out tons of money in monthly cash bonuses for the poor, and in subsidized food for the working class through the government's popular Mercal supermarkets.
Sure his fiery anti-capitalist rhetoric has caused massive capital flight, the closing of more than 7,000 private companies, hundreds of thousands of layoffs and higher poverty rates.
But it would be a mistake to conclude that growing poverty will hurt Chavez politically. On the contrary, the more the poor depend on his financial largess, the more political control he has over them. As long as our potential "Lebon Prize" winner is awash in petrodollars, poverty may even play in his favor.
-- Andres Oppenheimer, Latin America Correspondent for the Miami Herald
Food for thought isn't it.
Seamus
Alexanderofmacedon
10-12-2005, 14:52
LOL:bow:
King Henry V
10-12-2005, 15:22
I wonder where JAG? You are being very mean to his beloved!~;)
Gawain of Orkeny
10-12-2005, 15:48
I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
Adrian II
10-12-2005, 16:05
Food for thought isn't it.
SeamusChavez is right. The INE does not quantify and measure the benefits the poor receive in the form of subsidized food prices, free education programs, health benefits through neighborhood clinics, etcetera, because that does not fit their neoliberal criteria. Chavez' government has virtually wiped out illiteracy, for instance, yet this is not reflected in the INE poverty statistics either.
So why is it then that Chavez is so popular in Venezuela, you may be asking.QED.
And who caused the Venezuelan destabilisation of 2002-2003 with its fascist coup plots, its oil industry sabotage and a management lockout that cost 650.000 Venezuelans their jobs and increased poverty substantially, you may be asking? That would be the U.S.-supported gorilla opposition.
Chavez rocks. :bow:
Red Harvest
10-12-2005, 16:16
I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
Alexanderofmacedon
10-12-2005, 16:21
I love this guy!~D
Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
Adrian II
10-12-2005, 16:33
Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?Oh, forget Gawain, this is about Chavez and Venezuela. I have looked up the INE figures and they show that the entire rise inpoverty took place during the coup and destabilisation period of 2002-2003. GDP went down 25% over that period.
1999 42.80
2000 41.60
2001 39.10
2002 41.50
2003 54.00
2004 53.10
Critics fail to acknowledge that Chavez put an end to a thirty year period of constant economic decline in Venezuela. During 1970-1998, Venezuelan per capita income fell by 35 percent. The country was the worst economic performer in the world. With its present growth of 17,8% (over 2004) it is the world's best performer after China. You think Venezuelans would want the old regime to come back and the American-backed oil bosses to take over again? I don't think so, gentlemen.
Kralizec
10-12-2005, 16:36
Wow AdrianII, that's some amazing figures. I don't see how anybody couldn't like the guy now.
Gawain of Orkeny
10-12-2005, 17:00
Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
Hatred of what?
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/Rush247.Par.0030.ImageFile.gif
Whats he gonna do when he has driven all the capitaists out of the country? The well will run dry someday and it wont be long. Its a great short term fix .
Crazed Rabbit
10-12-2005, 17:12
You guys ever read Atlas Shrugged?
Crazed Rabbit
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2005, 17:43
Chavez is right. The INE does not quantify and measure the benefits the poor receive in the form of subsidized food prices, free education programs, health benefits through neighborhood clinics, etcetera, because that does not fit their neoliberal criteria. Chavez' government has virtually wiped out illiteracy, for instance, yet this is not reflected in the INE poverty statistics either.
True as to the INE, but the UN Human Development Report (emph's: life expectancy, literacy, per capita income) point dropped Venezuala 7 places from 68th to 75th in the World. UN HDR is not a neo-lib rater.
And who caused the Venezuelan destabilisation of 2002-2003 with its fascist coup plots, its oil industry sabotage and a management lockout that cost 650.000 Venezuelans their jobs and increased poverty substantially, you may be asking? That would be the U.S.-supported gorilla opposition.
Chavez rocks. :bow:
I assume you mean "guerilla" opposition, since the U.S. does not fund Silverbacks or any other great ape liberation effort.
You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you? Other than the loose connection of the US would like to see anything that took Chavez down relatively peacefully, what's the link?
Seamus
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2005, 17:49
Critics fail to acknowledge that Chavez put an end to a thirty year period of constant economic decline in Venezuela. During 1970-1998, Venezuelan per capita income fell by 35 percent. The country was the worst economic performer in the world. With its present growth of 17,8% (over 2004) it is the world's best performer after China. You think Venezuelans would want the old regime to come back and the American-backed oil bosses to take over again? I don't think so, gentlemen.
However, with the growth in poverty paralleling this oil-driven surge in revenue, does this not imply a widening gap between haves and have-nots (an issue that has always vexed South American success), or has the vast bulk of this revenue increase simply gone directly into government handouts without building physical infrastructure etc.
I mislike Chavez, but I don't have a lot of details on infrastructure improvements etc., so I am skeptical but acknowledge I might be missing some data. However, a better social safety net does NOT translate into higher prosperity or long term advancements in standard of living; those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.
Seamus
Tribesman
10-12-2005, 19:58
those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.
What you mean like universal education , improving trade and logistic infrastructure as well as medical imrovements , and opportunity to own land and launch business ventures .
Hmmmm... I think thats all covered , now all they need to do is keep them gorillas out of it .
You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you?
That wouldn't be the lockout where the gorillas attacked government convoys trying to move stuff from the locked out docks would it ?
No there is no link ... move along ....nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt ~D
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2005, 20:17
those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.
What you mean like universal education , improving trade and logistic infrastructure as well as medical imrovements , and opportunity to own land and launch business ventures .
Hmmmm... I think thats all covered , now all they need to do is keep them gorillas out of it .
You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you?
That wouldn't be the lockout where the gorillas attacked government convoys trying to move stuff from the locked out docks would it ?
No there is no link ... move along ....nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt ~D
...Well, the education component does seem to have improved, and medical coverage probably as well. I didn't see anything presented on trade/logistic improvements, and Chavez' anti-capitalist stance seems to have sent off the capital necessary for business ventures -- even if ownership opportunity is improved (which is probably the case from what I have read of the previous governments).
As to the guerilla stuff, do you have a source? As I noted, I did not feel perfectly backgrounded on that part.
Seamus
Adrian II
10-12-2005, 20:29
(..) nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt ~DMaybe we should enlighten the audience, Mr President, as to the fact that the U.S. was the only country in the world to immediately recognize the new “consultative junta”, nominally headed by the chief of the country’s big business association, Pedro Carmona Estanga -- even though the coup had not been fully carried through and finally backfired due to popular intervention. I clearly remember Ari Fleischer facing the White House press corps with his foot set squarely in his mouth. Details of U.S. involvement (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html) began to leak soon afterwards.
Adrian II
10-12-2005, 20:32
As to the guerilla stuff, do you have a source? As I noted, I did not feel perfectly backgrounded on that part.
Seamus'Gorilla' is a term commonly used for military dictators in Latin America. :bow:
Seamus Fermanagh
10-12-2005, 20:41
Details of U.S. involvement (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html) began to leak soon afterwards.
Hmmm. They slam a number of the folks involved; some of whom probably did play a role in Iran/Contra. Doesn't really show any proof that the US was aiding and abetting -- though our willingness to recognize and support the new government suggests that the USA was, at least, willing to profit from the coup as much as possible (certainly not a friendly stance toward the current elected leader of Ven.).
Seamus
Tribesman
10-12-2005, 20:46
Maybe we should enlighten the audience, Mr President
Nah why bother , though it would be tempting to find a link to Colin Powells address when he was using TV footage of the management forces firing into a very large crowd of Anti -coup protesters and claiming it was chavez supporters firing at peaceful management supporters , thats really funny , at least they could have photoshopped the protesters placards or something before they broadcast it .~D ~D ~D
What I never unerstood , if Hugo is such an evil dictator then why was that woman who was on the podium at the "inaugeration" of the management rebels allowed to recieve the millions of US dollars to fund her recall campaign instead of being thrown in prison .
Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults , well he is a politician for a start , but why the fixation with him and the endless efforts to vilify him ?
Edit to add ...Just read the link Adrian , isn't Reich an appropriate name for a right wing nutter .
Adrian II
10-12-2005, 20:55
Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults , well he is a politician for a start For starters he is a smug demagogue with a ridiculous personal tv-show, but he is a lot better than the previous jerks.
(..) but why the fixation with him and the endless efforts to vilify him?How un-Tribesmanlike of you to ask such a naive question, Mr President. Oil + socialism is a powerful elixir, particularly in Latin America where people like Lula and Chavez are breaching the neoliberal consensus that has reigned supreme since the 1980's.
Tribesman
10-12-2005, 21:03
How un-Tribesmanlike of you to ask such a naive question, Mr President.
Hey .....easy there Adrian , I meant ordinary peoples willingness to swallow all the crap without even a seconds thought .
Ah I must have disconnected my "natural born cynic" circuit . I will fix it shortly~;)
http://www.newstatesman.com/200510100012
Forgive me for pasting it as you can't read it otherwise - you have to have a log in, which costs money. As this is my first post here for a long time, surely I can have some leeway.
[article removed by Ser Clegane]
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.
*goes off into the night again*
EDIT by Ser Clegane: Sorry, I had to remove the article - as you need a log in to read it, posting it here would obviously be a violation of copyright.
I might note though that the website allows free reading of one article per day - so if anybody is interested in the article, just click on JAG's link (but make sure to read the article the first time you go there - otherwise you will have to wait another day to access it again).
Thanks for your understanding
Strike For The South
10-13-2005, 00:53
*Strike has a heart attack* The day Venzula owns the USA I will quit eating meat
'Gorilla' is a term commonly used for military dictators in Latin America. :bow:By who?~:confused:
Azi Tohak
10-13-2005, 04:44
So let me get this straight... the hatred of the US runs so rampant that not only is China being trumpeted to put us in our place, but a President from Venezuela is also supposed to do it? By establishing a welfare state and trying to set up the mythical (just as mythical as Muslim unity for example) Latin American power block?
This is delightful! Reading other people's fantasies is always insightful.
Azi
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.
~:eek: :laugh: ~:confused:
I'm sorry, did you just proclaim that Hugo Chavez was a great man? Did you mean great as in 'Hugo's a mighty large fellow whose great height and girth defies the laws of nature great' or did you mean that he is truly one of the great dictators and megalomaniacal a$$holes of the 21st century? It's one thing to be contrary for the sake of being contrary after a conservative voices their opinion here in the Org but that is just nutty.
Kaiser of Arabia
10-13-2005, 18:23
I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
I like the other 10% of the black vote, we need to make it 100% though. ~:)
Crazed Rabbit
10-13-2005, 19:02
Welcome back JAG!
You might want to check this out:
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200505070444
So, although poverty has increased to 54% (and is staying high), although foreign investment-what it takes to build an economy when half your nation is in poverty-and the amount of industrial firms, has dropped 50%, although unemployment has increased nigh on 50%, although per-capita income has dropped, inflation has increased, and the public debt has another $20 billion, he's a 'great man'?
Soon, this is going to crash. And it will crash faster and harder if the price of oil drops.
I can only assume your definition of great man refers to girth.
After all, if he's such a great man, why has he packed the courts to agree with him, outlawed protesting, outlawed criticism of the government, and revoked the presumption of innocence?
Why would such a great man need to surpress all dissent and throw opposition members in jail? Can any of his supporters explain this?
Crazed Rabbit
Alexander the Pretty Good
10-13-2005, 19:06
All the best socialist societies put their boot down on the neck of freedom!
~:rolleyes:
Del Arroyo
10-13-2005, 19:49
Welcome back JAG!
You might want to check this out:
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200505070444
I can only assume your definition of great man refers to girth.
This is basically what I've been saying. The fundamentals just seem weak to me. Chavez has crushed all opposition and faces no threat to his continued rule-- that's one solid point. If he can use oil revenues to build a solid educational system and improve medical care, the other aspects may begin to catch up... or may not... and it's an IF either way...
DA
Adrian II
10-13-2005, 19:54
Can any of his supporters explain this?I have addressed most of it earlier in the thread. The site you link to is very thin on facts, but full of immature invective and hyperbole.
You should try to get better information and develop some historical perspective on Venezuela. Look at some World Bank figures, read up on the Bolivarian nation's history. Chavez predecessors have overseen thirty years of negative growth, and this for the fifth oil producing country of the world. Go figure. The Venezuelan economy is growing now, despite coups and related attempts at destabilisation, and people derive a sense of purpose from Chavez reforms.
So speaking bad about George Bush is okay - but we can not speak bad about Hugo Chavez. How nice is that...(Edit Note: forgot the smilie - but maybe I didn't)
Hugo Chavez is not the demon that many in the United States and other parts of the world would like to paint him as, nor is he the next messiah of Socialism and reform that some on the left would like the rest to believe.
Personally if his people want his leadership - by all means let them decide who leads them. Not my place to tell someone in Venezuela what type of leader would best fit their country.
Adrian II
10-13-2005, 20:17
So speaking bad about George Bush is okay - but we can not speak bad about Hugo Chavez.You have to be accurate in both cases, that is the whole point. Chavez is a demagogue and he is heavy-handed, which kind of comes with the territory of Venezuelan politics. Nonetheless he is a big improvement compared to his predecessors whereas George Bush is worse than his predecessor. When you regard political progress as a dynamic, peace-meal process (like I do) such gradual improvements are very important.
Crazed Rabbit
10-13-2005, 20:27
Well, if the Venezualans love him so much for the economy, which, though he seems to be screwing up for short term gain, may not be that bad historically, why does he have to outlaw dissent and all those other things I mentioned?
Crazed Rabbit
You have to be accurate in both cases, that is the whole point. Chavez is a demagogue and he is heavy-handed, which kind of comes with the territory of Venezuelan politics. Nonetheless he is a big improvement compared to his predecessors whereas George Bush is worse than his predecessor. When you regard political progress as a dynamic, peace-meal process (like I do) such gradual improvements are very important.
Again apples and oranges.
So in one case you find its perfectly acceptable to support a heavy-handed demagogue - as long as that demagogue has absolutely no effect on your part of the world?
Edit: to make the statement less caustic
Tribesman
10-13-2005, 21:47
The site you link to is very thin on facts, but full of immature invective and hyperbole.
No never~D ~D ~D
About Vcrisis and its editor
Vcrisis is, in short, the personal endeavour of someone whose discontentment towards the politicians of his country (Venezuela) reached such unbearable levels, that he decided to take action and provide a counterbalance to the official multimillion dollar propagandistic effort rolled out by the current administration.
See it is just a personal effort against the multimillion dollar propoganda rolled out by the current admin . I suppose the multi billion dollar anti government propoganda by the 90+% of the media that is run by the coup plotters isn't enough by itself ~;) Not to mention the foriegn money directed to anti government propoganda outlets .~:eek:
After all, if he's such a great man, why has he packed the courts to agree with him, outlawed protesting, outlawed criticism of the government, and revoked the presumption of innocence?
Are we talking Bush or Chavez here ?~D
Outlawed , outlawed and revoked ....can you provide reliable details of these occurences Rabbit ?
why does he have to outlaw dissent and all those other things I mentioned?
Firstly , as above , can you provide some specifics ?
Secondly , just as a little thought , it might have something to do with a very well funded and armed terrorist group trying to overthrow the elected government and abolish the constitution .
Secondly , just as a little thought , it might have something to do with a very well funded and armed terrorist group trying to overthrow the elected government and abolish the constitution .
Could this be the same group that is accusing Chavez of doing the same thing that you just stated was their goal?
Did not Chavez at one time also attempted to stage a military Coup and overthrow the elected government and abolish the constitution?
Oh boy it seems some people just like to see one side of Hugo Chavez - be it the right or the left.
Meneldil
10-13-2005, 22:25
Well, from the little I've read about Chavez and Venezuela, I'm not a big fan of the guy. And this wouldn't be the first time a Socialist leader appear as a messiah, while in fact he's not that great.
Now, he's probably doing a lot better than his predecessors, and probably also a lot better than the average latino american president. But then, liberalism hurted latino america so badly that I doubt he could do worse.
Kaiser of Arabia
10-13-2005, 22:41
Chaves is becoming the new Communist name. First Ceasar, now this dude.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-13-2005, 22:43
Well, from the little I've read about Chavez and Venezuela, I'm not a big fan of the guy. And this wouldn't be the first time a Socialist leader appear as a messiah, while in fact he's not that great.
Now, he's probably doing a lot better than his predecessors, and probably also a lot better than the average latino american president. But then, liberalism hurted latino america so badly that I doubt he could do worse.
From what I've scanned, Chavez could surpass his predecessors in office by NOT stealing from the poor box on the way out of Sunday services -- they didn't set the bar very high.
Now, can he build healthy, self-sustaining national infrastructure before social safety net programs and anti-capitalist posturing undermine the improvements he's attempting to make -- that's the question. I'm not a fan of socialism, so I'm skeptical.
Seamus
Tribesman
10-13-2005, 22:47
Oh boy it seems some people just like to see one side of Hugo Chavez
Oh yes Red , he is infallible ~;)
That explains....
Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults
Definately I only see one side:book:
Crazed Rabbit
10-13-2005, 22:53
Are we talking Bush or Chavez here ?
Outlawed , outlawed and revoked ....can you provide reliable details of these occurences Rabbit ?
Do you know the definition of packing the court?
I linked to the site. Haven't you read it? Or are you just unable to explain why a 'great man' would outlaw dissent (i.e the press being censured-so, no, its not 90% against him-, the outlawing of banging pots and other cooking implements together, etc), and trying to avoid answering the question?
Crazed Rabbit
Tribesman
10-13-2005, 23:00
I linked to the site. Haven't you read it?
Of course I havn't read it , that is why 2 posts ago I never directly quoted the author of the site that I have never read and will never read , even if only for its comedy value ~:confused:
Oh boy it seems some people just like to see one side of Hugo Chavez
Oh yes Red , he is infallible ~;)
That explains....
Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults
Definately I only see one side:book:
Yes indeed it would seem so - since you only seem to be defending him and pointing out the "evils" of the United States in regards to Hugo Chavez,
Lets see some of your normal venomus comments directed at the short comings of Hugo Chavez - verus directed at other members of the .Org who happen to dislike or even hate the Mr. Chavez
But that just might be asking to much of you ~:eek:
Tribesman
10-13-2005, 23:35
Lets see some of your normal venomus comments directed at the short comings of Hugo Chavez -
What you mean like his manipulating the constitution through the democratic process before he was in power so he could expoloit the changes when he came to power , the creation of the personality cult which is always a worrying thing in anybody , let alone a politician , his failure to crack down sufficiently on the cross border ativities of the FARC rebels and their money making activities , or how about his reluctance to co-operatewith the US DEA in stopping the drug trade .
Nah I never think about any of that .~;)
edit to add ...oh and the questionable definitions of underused or unused foriegn holdings that are to be appropriated by the state for redistribution to the populace , I would never even consider mentioning that .
Lets see some of your normal venomus comments directed at the short comings of Hugo Chavez -
What you mean like his manipulating the constitution through the democratic process before he was in power so he could expoloit the changes when he came to power , the creation of the personality cult which is always a worrying thing in anybody , let alone a politician , his failure to crack down sufficiently on the cross border ativities of the FARC rebels and their money making activities , or how about his reluctance to co-operatewith the US DEA in stopping the drug trade .
Nah I never think about any of that .~;)
edit to add ...oh and the questionable definitions of underused or unused foriegn holdings that are to be appropriated by the state for redistribution to the populace , I would never even consider mentioning that .
Thats more like it - you got to have balance when speaking about politicians of any country. ~D
Gawain of Orkeny
10-14-2005, 01:00
You have to be accurate in both cases, that is the whole point. Chavez is a demagogue and he is heavy-handed, which kind of comes with the territory of Venezuelan politics. Nonetheless he is a big improvement compared to his predecessors You have to be accurate in both cases, that is the whole point. Chavez is a demagogue and he is heavy-handed, which kind of comes with the territory of Venezuelan politics. Nonetheless he is a big improvement compared to his predecessors whereas George Bush is worse than his predecessor.
You start out saying you have to be accurate and then say "whereas George Bush is worse than his predecessor. " If conservatives were the mods here you might get a warinng for posting flasehoods.~D
Tribesman
10-14-2005, 01:23
Thats more like it - you got to have balance when speaking about politicians of any country.
Hey Red , I am all for balance , but when you get the same old rubbish again and again from people using completely biased sources that bear very little resemblance to fact then it is all too tempting to go to out and out against it .
Which is illustrated by this comment of mine ....
Hey .....easy there Adrian , I meant ordinary peoples willingness to swallow all the crap without even a seconds thought .
Ah I must have disconnected my "natural born cynic" circuit . I will fix it shortly
Though I was tempted to go through the Nah why bother ,route in one of my earlier posts I thought I would have a little fun instead .
But with both Cuba and Venezuela on the forum topics at the moment it is getting to the sarcasm overload state .~:cheers:
If conservatives were the mods here you might get a waring for posting flasehoods.
Wheras when the conservatives are in power they go waring over falsehoods~;)
Papewaio
10-14-2005, 01:33
Why not be friendly with him as long as he does not do anything against human rights?
It could be the next Singapore...
Del Arroyo
10-14-2005, 01:35
Look I'm not going to make a long post here, and I'm not going to wade into specifics, but I will say-- I have followed the situation in Venezuela closely, and it is true beyond any shadow of a doubt that Chavez has stacked the courts, abused them to remove his political enemies, ransacked all the nation's democratic institutions and turned Venezuela into a One-Party State.
I don't need to link anything to back up these statements, because anyone who knows anything about the situation will agree that, nitpicking aside, they are fundamentally accurate.
Debatable points might include-- is this autocratic consolidation good or bad? In the short term? In the long term? Do you think Chavez was/is justified in behaving this way?
DA
Red Harvest
10-14-2005, 01:38
The amusing thing about Chavez is that he does share some traits with Dubya: cult of personality rise, saber rattling, a sense of righteousness, arrogance, and polarization/division. I dislike both of them for these reasons.
While I agree Chavez has attempted to do some things for the poor that were desperately needed, I also can't look past his encouragement of violent revolutionaries and his confrontational style. Such leaders rarely end their terms in a good way. The main thing Chavez had going for him is the corrupt/inept regimes that preceeded him. At any rate he often looks like a dime store revolutionary/strong man--not my sort of model leader. What sort of chance does a revolutionary socialist styled system have? Not a lot.
I've had some opportunity to consider working with Venezuelan business interests. I won't touch them with a 10 ft pole. Too bad, because I have had good relations with Venezuelans, but I want no connection to such an unstable regime.
Soulforged
10-14-2005, 02:14
'Gorilla' is a term commonly used for military dictators in Latin America. :bow:
Huh? Just curious, what country is that?
But with both Cuba and Venezuela on the forum topics at the moment it is getting to the sarcasm overload state .~:cheers:
Well without the caustic sarcasm I can't tell how to read your comments. ~D
Soulforged
10-14-2005, 06:44
Well, if the Venezualans love him so much for the economy, which, though he seems to be screwing up for short term gain, may not be that bad historically, why does he have to outlaw dissent and all those other things I mentioned?
Because like all other dictators he has some enemies, instead of just "removing" them from material world, he prefers to decrease the dissent that way improving his own political stance. Simple. Do you want to analize it from the "not-so-advanced" world point of view? Do it, but you'll not get the true results of the effetcs and explanation of the dictatorship, wheter it's latinoamerican or european, modern or ancient. The problem with you is that you ignore political facts here, wich is also about prioricing, wheter Chavez wants to improve the venezuelan way of life or just make history, he needs to solidify his possition to not be overthrown, like for example the case of Bolivia.
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