Intellegence and Grades, are they proportional? [Archive]

Kaiser of Arabia

10-14-2005, 03:58

Well, here's a small rant (that I promise, won't offend anyone.)

I'm relativly smart. Not ingenious, but pretty smart. I act stupid on the forums, but that is on purpose (i.e. It's a hell of a lot easier than being intellegent.) Now, I tend to associate myself with smart people. The girl I'm going to ask out (next time I see her, which is very rare recently because she does morning annoucnements and is usally at the Studio before I even arrive at school) is 3rd in the class, and almost all of my friends are in the top 100 (out of 500+). Now, most of these people say I'm smarter than them; I don't beleive it and deny it; but that's what they say. Even the girl who's third in the class. Anyway, I got my transcript the other day, and I'm at 98th.

Now, I'd be quite a bit higher if my math teacher didn't take 24% of my grade away for no reason in the last week of school (I'll talk to her about it, soon.), but other than that all my grades are very good. Mostly A's, except in Math which I alwasy get a B. My GPA, unweighted, is 3.7 about, but that's because my math teacher decided to kill me with those -24 points (bringing the marking period grade down to a 64), before that it was like 3.86 or somthing. Either way, I get good grades, but not nearly the best. And I don't put effort into it.

And then it occured to me, people tend to judge intellegence soley on grades. GPA, Class Rank, and all that. But there are intellegent people who just don't try, like myself. Laziness. Now, if you get good grades, you're relativly smart, but I have to admit, some people get really good grades and are dumb as a stump. They just memorize what they need to, and then forget it. On the other hand, people like myself actually learn the material and apply it as best they can.

Now, I consider 98 out of 500+ unnacceptable, so I'm really going to step it up a notch (I really want to get into NHS, I'll be in NFL [National Forensic's League] very soon, but I want NHS]), but my question to you all is:

Are grades directly related to intellegence?

This applies to test scores as well (For Example, I scored better than somthing like 95% of the state on my last standardized test, but I still don't get the best grades on earth, nor am I smarter than 95% of the state of Pennsylvania). So, please, debate with me.

Del Arroyo

10-14-2005, 04:02

Stop patting yourself on the back for being such a smart little terd and go do something useful with your life.

And I mean that in the kindest of ways... ~D ~:cheers:

DA

Kaiser of Arabia

10-14-2005, 04:06

Stop patting yourself on the back for being such a smart little terd and go do something useful with your life.

And I mean that in the kindest of ways... ~D ~:cheers:

DA
Actually I was asking if Grades and smartess are related as much as some people say. ~:confused:
EDIT: By the way, I want to go to either VMI or into the Marines/Airforce, so I guess you can say I will be doing somthing usefull with my life.

Byzantine Prince

10-14-2005, 04:07

No, they are not related.

Kaiser of Arabia

10-14-2005, 04:09

No, they are not related.
My thoughts exactly ~:)

solypsist

10-14-2005, 04:20

book smarts are completely unrelated to being socially smart or street saavy.

Kanamori

10-14-2005, 04:36

In my school, it certainly took intelligence to get good grades. Intelligence does not imply good grades, although I would suspect that they are decently correlated. You only need good grades if you want to go to a prestigous school anyways.

Kaiser of Arabia

10-14-2005, 04:38

Exactly. Education in my school can be a joke sometimes. I just don't do the stuff, it's so condesending.

Big_John

10-14-2005, 05:26

public education will give you niether of those three.
none not neither. "neither" correctly refers only to two choices. :book:

+1

p.s. i' am extraordinarily smart, and my grades where beyond comprehension at all levels. therefor, there is a necessary direct correlation between intelligence and grades. well, when you are an unworldly genius, at least. i bow to myself. :bow:

Crazed Rabbit

10-14-2005, 05:26

No.

Of course, my own grades weren't outstanding, but my SAT scores got me into the college I'm in now. Let's just say I'm at either extreme (though not that extreme) of the GPA average and SAT average for my college. And I wouldn't want to switch the what was over the average and under.

Grades are nice, but all they do is reflect a willingness to slog through stuff.

Crazed Rabbit

Papewaio

10-14-2005, 05:43

Intelligence is like height is for a basketballer. If you don't show that you can use that height you are just tall not a basketballer.

Grades are like turning up to practice. It shows that you have the ability to study and push yourself.

Intelligence that is not applied is like a body that does not exercise. Sure you might keep your form for awhile but you will deteriorate .

There are alot of ways to learning that teachers do not teach. There is a lot of fundamentals that can make your intelligence go further.

Also remember you are not competing against your school you are in competition with everyone.

Kekvit Irae

10-14-2005, 05:50

The advantage of being home schooled is that you are given one-on-one instruction instead of being a part of a "system" that doesnt care about you as an individual.
I'm homeschooled, and I consider myself to be pretty smart, but I'm about average in some subjects such as math. However, I do not have the ambition to go to college. I'm perfectly happy with my station in life.
I'm pretty sure that if the "system" was revamped to take care of the individual needs, we would be seeing a lot less in the way of AOL rejects (IE: oMg U r0xx0rz mY b0xx0rz d00dz) online. :tongueg:

BDC

10-14-2005, 12:08

If you can't cut it in a proper school, and have to be taught at home, there is no way you are ever going to cope in real life.

Grades links in with intelligence, but I know smart people who have messed up because they simple haven't done any work. But no stupid people who have managed to do really well through hard work. Pass maybe, but never do really well.

Byzantine Prince

10-14-2005, 13:43

I think it's unintelligent to say that there is a correlation between grades and intelligence. I've seen complete idiots get close to perfect marks all the time. And also there are politicians out there who are complete idiots even though they obviously had the grades to go through Yale.

EDIT: Einstein had bad marks at school.

Ja'chyra

10-14-2005, 13:43

I would say that intelligence is linked to grades and that Pape gave a good explanation, the more intelligent you are the easier it should be to get good grades.

If you consider yourself intelligent but are not getting the grades you expect then you are either lying to yourself or are too lazy to do the work, either way it's down to you.

I consider myself to be of average intelligence, in that I was always in the top classes at school and got B and C paases in all my subjects, back in the day ~;) , without absolutely no studying or homework. Therefore I would class myself, during my schooldays, as lazy as with a little effort I could have gotten A's (I was given an A for achievement in Physics and an E for effort in my report, really confused my mum). I intended to join the RN and had passed all the exams to be accepted as an artificer when I failed the medical, and as you have previously said that you're undraftable then I wouldn't pin my hopes on the military.

I was lucky, I got an apprenticeship and went to college, hopefully you will be too. I'm still considering doing a degree but I really have no idea what to do, something work related, engineering, maths or safety, or something purely for interest like history or natural history.

econ21

10-14-2005, 14:05

Kraxis

10-14-2005, 14:10

Ok, how many in here belived that girls are just around 40% more intelligent than boys?

Good, I didn't think so. But their grades do indicate that they are. There is a massive overrepresentation of girls in the higher grades in schools. Then we have to wonder why if we don't believe they aer that much more intelligent than the boys. The simple fact is boys often don't like to sit still... Damn, even I, a bookworm of all standards, loved gym and running around wrestling in the hallways (we even had boxingmatches).

Also, boys hate homework a lot more than girls. When we are done we are done! My grades did not match up to my intelligence that is for sure... So if I'm a comparably good student, then I wonder how low other boys are compared to their intelligence.

Said shortly: School and High School is tilted in favour of girls. Many of the virtues of school are feminine, while few are maskuline.

Shambles

10-14-2005, 14:10

Intelligence and knowlage are 2 difrent things.

School teaches you knowlage,
Your Born with Inteligence.

No amount of schooling can increase your intelligence,
And no amout of knowlage can make you clever,

So grades and inteligence dont go hand in hand,
But Intelligence can help you Learn the knolwage that Schools teach.

So there is a Small part of your grades that could imply intelligence.
Although as Einstein said,

Imagination is more Importaint than knowlage.

Geoffrey S

10-14-2005, 14:48

Grades are not directly related to intelligence. That said, they are necessary for others to judge if you're suitable for a particular school/university/job, although they should only be considered a guideline.

Divinus Arma

10-14-2005, 14:59

Totally unrelated. According to some psychiatrist who was analyzing me for being a brat, I had a 145 IQ when I was 13. I also failed almost every class I took and had to repeat 8th grade. The lesson? The psychiatrist was an idiot.

But seriously, I agree with everyone here who says public education is a piece of crap. I dropped out of high school and went back to take a couple tests and get a diploma so I could get into the military.

I will never send my children through the public education system. It is an oppressive, tyranical, uninspired, self-serving bureaucracy.

:book: :embarassed: :whip: :wall:

Seamus Fermanagh

10-14-2005, 15:10

Apparently, IQ and school grades have a correlation coefficient of about 0.5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

However, this statistically stuff is all to do with averages and there is a lot of variation around the typical pattern. Rather than a simple deterministic positive line relating grades to IQ, think of a scatterplot around that line. Some people do much better at school than one might think given their IQ and some do much worse. As Pape says, work effort is probably the single proximate cause of such deviations.

Simon:

I read the wiki piece you linked, but without knowing the reliability score and specific validity procedures used in a study, a correlation coefficient is hard to evaluate. 0.5 is usually thought of as a "substantial" correlation, but it is a step to say they are "highly related." As you know, it is possible to show a 0.8+ correlation between the number of churches in a community and the number of prostitutes, but to say they are related to one another is a different step entirely.

I agree with Pappy and yourself that intelligence certainly doesn't hamper learning, but the number one component is hard work. I would also add, for formal education, the importance of perseverance. If you simply won't let the system beat you, you'll achieve your objective.

Kaiser:

You are a member of a formal education system. If you want the grades and the accolades, then study the system parameters and game it more effectively. If the system rewards showing up and apple-polishing more than it does intelligence -- and you want the accolade -- then get out a towel and polish apples. You already know how to analyze a game and make it work to your advantage -- its not like we all play RTW the way the people then actually fought their wars. We know the best way to deal with rebellion is to give your own city away to your enemy, let it rebel against her instead, step in, take over, and exterminate. This is not real life, but it works within the context of the game. Learn the game you are playing and then play it to win. You will find that "jumping through the specified hoops" is more likely to get you what you want than is the knowledge of your own intelligence.

Also, GC and Solly are right about "street" smarts and experience -- school systems almost never "test" these and generally only help you improve in those categories by happenstance.

Seamus

Crazed Rabbit

10-14-2005, 15:32

yesdachi

10-14-2005, 15:39

I think that there is a connection between intelligence and grades but it is by no means absolute. It has a lot to do with the amount of effort that is applied.

I do think there is a fundamental difference between boys and girls on average. My wife and I are a perfect example, she worked hard and applied herself in high school and got great grades and a full ride scholarship to college, I didn’t apply myself anymore than absolutely necessary and got average grades, plenty good enough to go to the college I wanted. Does that mean she is more intelligent than me? Not according to our IQ scores, mine is 17 points higher than hers~D. But IQ tests are not absolute either.

She thinks she’s smarter than me but I am obviously smarter because I was able to get the “smart” girl to marry me.~;)

Also, I agree with everyone that thinks public schools are crap. I have beat this horse before and wont again here.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-14-2005, 15:57

IShe thinks she’s smarter than me but I am obviously smarter because I was able to get the “smart” girl to marry me.~;)

Even intelligent women can make a bad decision under the influence of enough alcohol.~;)

...just kidding, I married a brighter and more loving woman than I deserved, and she wasn't drunk when she said yes. I'll forward all of your condolences to her, but as for me...I win, I win!~D ~D ~D

Seamus

Arcanum

10-14-2005, 16:04

LeftEyeNine

10-14-2005, 16:10

You can learn the every single street, lane or avenue of a city if you work hard to get it from the maps. The city is as familiar as your palm.

But it is intelligence that can lead you out of trouble if one of these streets is clogged or stuck.

Success has something to do with hard-working, that's undeniable. However, they are the intelligent peaople that work hard who leave remarks behind them.

I am one of those lazy smarties. Many people praise my creativity. Let's look what I got up to now at the age of 21. Nothing.. If only I could go berserk for my ambitions.

yesdachi

10-14-2005, 16:44

Am I dumb? I nearly had to re-do the last year because of my grades. That is:

Got very bad grades without any, ANY effort and with a lot of missing times in school in the first half of the year.

Got myself up the 2nd half to learn a little (a LOT in maths and latin) and I passed by the bottom line.

I really do not want to see myself as an idiot, I really don't. I always think that I'm far more thoughtful and interested in matters like politics, philosophy ,languages,military tactics,history and art, as I taught myself nearly everything I know myself , but somehow my grades make me feel very bad about myself and get me down all the time.

Am I dumb?
“Stupid is as stupid does.” – Forest Gump

I don’t think someone who is dumb would question weather he is dumb or not. Do you ever shake your head at how dumb others are? If you do, you’re probably not that dumb.~:)

Way to get the smart girl Seamus! ~:cheers:
Not alcohol either huh, well If we ever figure out the real reason our women marry us we should write a book.~D

econ21

10-14-2005, 17:17

A correlation coefficient of 0.5 does not mean highly related.

Well, I am not even sure what "highly related" means, so you may have a point. :embarassed:

It probably varies by type of variable (social science vs physical) and by unit of observation (individuals, countries, etc). I mainly work with micro level socio-economic data on individuals and households - ie the same kind of data you would use to analyse links between IQ and school grades. In my experience, I seldom come across correlation coefficients as high as 0.5[1]. That implies one variable "explains" 25% of the variation in the other. For example, in a lot of cross-sectional work, it's not unusual to find all your explanatory variables "explaining" 25% or less of the variation in the dependent variable. (By contrast, with time series macro data, e.g. on country's not individual's, your models would routinely be "explaining" 95%+ of the variation.)

Kraxis, the wikipedia link refers to a high level US scientific review of the evidence between IQ and outcomes like school grades. It makes the point that IQ is correlated with grades within populations (e.g. boys) but not necessarily between them. (We don't want to go into the IQ race dispute here, please.) However, the work I did in Kenya was explaining why girls do less well than boys in school. Female academic superiority in the UK is a fairly recent thing (at least at later ages) and probably reflects cultural and economic changes. Interestingly, in Kenya, I found that in the regions where girls did less well than boys in their school grades, they also had lower reasoning ability. Where there was parity in grades, there was parity in reasoning ability.

To me, this suggests that to some extent (25%?), IQ and school grades measure the same things - inter alia, the ability to pass tests. ~;)

[1]For example, the correlation between households' total income per capita and total expenditure per capita in some Ugandan data I'm looking at is only 0.59.

Tricon

10-14-2005, 17:41

Grades and intelligence are certainly related.. but not dependent on one another.
I think there are quite a few intelligent people out there who are just intelligent enough to get by with fairly good grades, without putting too much effort into it.

Street savy ... well that's more along the lines of widom in my opinion. Which is a bit different from intelligence.
I've known people who could recite pages of law text. They could also solve some mean and nasty logic problems (talking math logics here), but were/are unable to order a frickin' pizza.... not to mention being able to survive for ek in a non urban enviroment.

Del Arroyo

10-14-2005, 18:27

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

The chief problem with this piece of evidence is that you are correlating their IQs with their performance on TESTS, not their grades. Tests measure knowledge, but grades almost always do not. Grades, especially on the High School level and below, mostly measure how much homework you did, how many labs you showed up for; how good your learning technique was, as opposed to you actual learning.

In other words, the fact that Kenyan kids who did well on one test happened to also do well on another test... is pretty intuitive and means nothing for the current discussion.

DA

A.Saturnus

10-14-2005, 18:35

Byzantine Prince

10-14-2005, 18:36

Intelligence Quotient is by no means a definitive scale of true intelligence. Every brain is unique.

If a person really is interested in something he will find ways to study and become successful. If the same person does average in school(and he should), then nothing is really out of reach for him. Here at least in Canada.

@Saturnus: The fact remains that empirically I could prove that the majority of people I've known that do well in school were in fact idiots(the opposite of intelligent). This does not mean they are not smart.

A.Saturnus

10-14-2005, 18:47

For what exactly are the people you know a representative sample?

Of course, if you insist that there´s no relation between intelligence and IQ, I can´t argue. But I would ask you what the definition of intelligence is then. As long as intelligence is a vague concept, the question whether it is related to grades is meaningless.

Ja'chyra

10-14-2005, 18:50

Even intelligent women can make a bad decision under the influence of enough alcohol.~;)

Seamus

If I find out you've been talking to my wife.......................:duel:

~;)

Byzantine Prince

10-14-2005, 18:53

Of course, if you insist that there´s no relation between intelligence and IQ, I can´t argue
I did not say that there is no relation. I said: Intelligence Quotient is by no means a definitive scale of true intelligence. There are other (unlimited) ways in which the brain can operate significantly better that are also useful to society. Also depending on when (what part of your life) you take the test the results will be different, not to mention the other counfounding factors involved.

The opposite of intelligent is idiot. And idiot is not the same as dumb. Therefore there are other sematic differences between the classification of someone who is purely intelligent, and someone who is simply smart.

Viking

10-14-2005, 19:02

The "stupid" people in my class got low grades, while the "intelligent" got high grades. It does relate, but as said, smart people can get low grades and dumb people can get high grades. I could have gotten top-grades if I`ve bothered with homework and read more before every test. But I don`t really bother as my grades are high enough as they are, I actually got 6 out of 6 at last test.

Del Arroyo

10-14-2005, 19:04

Intelligence and grades are related and there´s nothing to discuss about. It´s your opinion against a century of research. There´s no reasonable objection against it you could make that hasn´t been made in dozens of the best peer-reviewed journals and been refuted.

Whoah, why so curt? Who has been saying that there is no relation? One or two people perhaps, certainly not me.

Personally, I flunked my entire senior year of High School and ended up with a GED; but I've never felt the need to deride the value of others' grades to build up my own self-worth. I think that good grades are definitely a good thing, though I've determined that the classroom is, personally, not where I learn best.

A few things I've been reading in this thread have interested me--

- This stuff about gender and formal education, how it may be tilted towards the girls. Very interesting.

- People's ideas on the value of/implications of formal education. There seem to be 2 major generalized positions nowadays, either "Formal education sucks!" or "Maybe, but if you can't hack it, you've no chance in real life..." I would imagine that both are probably wrong, and the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

- How many people there are having the same kinds of problems I was having in high school!

- The continuation by Divinus Arma and YesDachi of this "Wow, I'm so lucky she actually wanted me" posturing so common with American men (and men from some other regions). There are definitely some regions I've visited where I have never nor would I ever expect to hear similar words uttered. Not making a judgement either way, I just think it's interesting. I also could just lack perspective.

..

So anyway, for all of you angsty misunderstood flunking geniuses-- it sounds like all of you at least have the will to pass and thus graduate, which means you are certainly more intelligent than me :bow: ~D

You'll do fine. Or maybe not. Sinking or swimming is really determined after high school.

DA

Del Arroyo

10-14-2005, 19:11

@Saturnus: The fact remains that empirically I could prove that the majority of people I've known that do well in school were in fact idiots(the opposite of intelligent). This does not mean they are not smart.

Here you prove your ignorance. I'm sure you could come up with one or two arbitrary criteria, which the echo room of your ego-centric thought process appear to be the best and truest ways of measuring 'intelligence', and use self-serving methods to prove that these individuals come up short...

...which would only prove that you couldn't tell the stink of your own ass from the fragrance of a rose.

DA

King Henry V

10-14-2005, 19:35

Well today the Headmaster came into class to announce the averages for this half-term. I'M THIRD, BABY!~:cheers: ~:cheers: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: ~:cheers: ~D ~D ~D
Previously I had been up to fifth but this is a complete turn around from three years ago, when I almost failed the year.~;) I have been working about as little now as I did then. I am quite lazy and often do my homework either on the bus, during breaks or when I have a free hour. Why should I work at home when I have a computer, and then do nothing in place without one? However, if I were at school in English (rather than French) I think I would be nearer to first.

Kraxis

10-14-2005, 21:14

Kraxis, the wikipedia link refers to a high level US scientific review of the evidence between IQ and outcomes like school grades. It makes the point that IQ is correlated with grades within populations (e.g. boys) but not necessarily between them. (We don't want to go into the IQ race dispute here, please.) However, the work I did in Kenya was explaining why girls do less well than boys in school. Female academic superiority in the UK is a fairly recent thing (at least at later ages) and probably reflects cultural and economic changes. Interestingly, in Kenya, I found that in the regions where girls did less well than boys in their school grades, they also had lower reasoning ability. Where there was parity in grades, there was parity in reasoning ability.
I didn't try to make it a race/sex issue.
I just assumed that everybody expected that boys and girls have equal capacity to learn if given the same chances. Same with race if you want to go there.

So why does it seem that either sex can have an advantage in school? Well it is obvious that it is not intelligence but rather the culture within and outside the school.

Most Western schools are highly feminine now. We are more free and lets discuss and so on. Boys learn quite a good deal better with discipline. It is odd really... There is a reason why this recent jump in girl supremacy in schools have happened. It began when the schools were changed from tough to 'soft'.

So I want a return? No, I liked the system and enjoyed it in great measure. But I did feel a bit lazy and often abused the system. Girls are less likely to do that. If that is because they are girls or because society expects them to be that way I don't know. I can only talk from my own experiences.

All in all, grades are not too good as a guage for intelligence. You can get great grades with a rather low intelligence (lets be reasonable here) if you just have the strength of will. While you can end up with failed subjects all along the line if you don't care.

yesdachi

10-14-2005, 21:27

in all, grades are not too good as a guage for intelligence. You can get great grades with a rather low intelligence (lets be reasonable here) if you just have the strength of will. While you can end up with failed subjects all along the line if you don't care.
Just to interject, I have seen a lot of idiots get good grades just because of their ability to memorize. And memorization doesn’t have much to do with intelligence.:bow:

Kanamori

10-14-2005, 21:28

Kraxis

10-14-2005, 21:41

Oh, of course they are no truly accurate measure of IQ. There is only a correlation. It is an easy way for universities to generally measure both your ability to achieve academically and your desire to achieve academically.
Of course! If universities only used IQ tests then it would soon screw up the institutions as many unwiling people would come in.

So grades are still good, but as a meassure of intelligence they are bad.

And yesdachi, a photographic memory can actually be a basis for intelligence. I don't have it, but facts simply stick to my brain (called a 'gluebrain' in Danish). If that memory is good enough then you can actually 'remember' a whole lot of stuff that would serve you well in an IQ test.
Is it not equally good to be able to use something without knowing why as to be able to use it from the point that it simply feels right. I woul say so.
I once met a mathematician at uni. He was brilliant, or so all thought. When I spoke to him he seemed no more intelligent that the rest of us, but everything... I mean everything just stuck to him. He then said that he never knew what he was doing, but he just took what he had remembered put it together and it worked. He has since become a lecturer in math.
His massive library of math in his head made it possible for him to put things together and to reason well without ever knowing what went on.
He used his memory to the fullest and he had scored very high in IQ tests because of that memory. I find that impressive. I wish I could do that.

yesdachi

10-14-2005, 21:47

And yesdachi, a photographic memory can actually be a basis for intelligence. I don't have it, but facts simply stick to my brain (called a 'gluebrain' in Danish). If that memory is good enough then you can actually 'remember' a whole lot of stuff that would serve you well in an IQ test.
Is it not equally good to be able to use something without knowing why as to be able to use it from the point that it simply feels right. I woul say so.
I once met a mathematician at uni. He was brilliant, or so all thought. When I spoke to him he seemed no more intelligent that the rest of us, but everything... I mean everything just stuck to him. He then said that he never knew what he was doing, but he just took what he had remembered put it together and it worked. He has since become a lecturer in math.
His massive library of math in his head made it possible for him to put things together and to reason well without ever knowing what went on.
He used his memory to the fullest and he had scored very high in IQ tests because of that memory. I find that impressive. I wish I could do that.
I don’t know if it is intelligence or just a regurgitation of information (or both combined in his case), either way I wish I had it too.~:)

econ21

10-14-2005, 23:52

Del Arroyo: sorry, being a Brit, I did not pick up on the distinction between school grades and exam tests. In the end what matters in the UK education system (and in the Kenyan one) is how you perform in external examinations, not teacher grades. But if the teachers are any good, they should surely be correlated?

Kraxis: the interesting point about my research in Kenya was that it did appear that at least part (about half) of the reason girls underperformed boys in some districts in Kenya and not others was that girls were less intelligent in those districts and not others. Now, that cannot be a pure biological sex difference. I suspect it illustrates a broader point that IQ, like exam performance at school, is influenced by lots of cultural, social and economic factors in childhood. For example, I am pretty sure ability to solve problems (which IQ measures) responds to intellectual stimulation throughout life, especially in childhood, (ie we learn to solve problems) and this depends partly on one's environment.

AntiochusIII

10-15-2005, 00:17

I get good, almost perfect grades (often above the 100% point) in US schooling system, and yes, I believe myself intelligent, even brilliant.

A little ego isn't bad for life, correct?

However, the relationship between grades and intelligence is, at best, connected after crossing a multitude of issues such as motives, habits, and individual character. For me, admittedly, my life had been quite empty for a while, and I have a lot of energy left unspent in which I turn into my renewed academic interests. Had I been left alone to be developed as a full-blown silly teenager with tons of friends ("they" are still my friends, save we're half a world apart), I would've scored badly, as I did a few years before, in my schooling. Public education takes a backseat to many people when their decisions are made.

On the issue that whether or not photographic "good" memory is a measure of intelligence, I'd argue that some part of it is. Some seems to have derided this "good memory," but, to be blunt, I'd say they're saying out of jealousy. Good memory can be extremely useful, and I "have one." It depends on the individual's use of his/her memory that marks his true intelligence. I collect knowledge, but I also analyze the knowledge I've gained, "philosophically" explores it, occasionally (rarely) practice it. The direct use of memory to remember "things" for tests is, of course, weak and a multitude of untapped potential of the mind lost. That is a study technique, and by all accounts, I have none such. I read a lot, out of mostly interest, but I made no effort whatsoever in using "techniques" to remember the little numbers and details. I'd rather understand--actually learn--than do better in my tests for remembering every little concrete detail. I am an imaginative person, blessed, fortunately, with a degree of practicality. Other, more pragmatic people would, however, do far better than me (if possible :P) in public schools.

However, since we are also discussing public schooling system: I found it to be very weak. Sure, an individual teacher can, as always, be inspiring and managed to hammer into his/her students' minds the motives, determination, and attention needed to gain knowledge. Public school offers decent knowledge, but, as far as the system itself go, pathetic ability to convince people to try and recieve it. I often find myself genuinely interested in many of the things I learn in class, only to be disappointed by the small amount of knowledge offered. When I move into more advanced classes, such as AP courses, however, I find myself in too much unnecessary homework--it seems the proportion of knowledge to work that accompanies it for the standart schools does not fit into me well. Again, I am more imaginative than pragmatic, and knowledge, in my opinion, is good even if for the sake of knowledge alone. The national, or state-wide scoring system used by the system also greatly irritates me, despite their importance in college application. I treat them no more--even less--than I treat an ordinary everyday quiz. It, somehow, pisses me off. All these tests seem to go the same way: standardized (Mcdonaldized?), stupid questions, waste of time, complicated application and formality. It appals me that the education system would advocate such as robotic judgement on individual humans.

As for US students out there who'd actually understand what I'm talking about: I denied the NHS because I don't care for it, and I am in the National Forensics League. Currently a first-year novice, with great future, hopefully. Though I took the "debate class" entirely out of interest, and not because I want to actually approach politics and laws, in which many debate-goers often pursue their career interests on, apart from being thrown into the asylum, that is.

Azi Tohak

10-15-2005, 00:47

Of course they are related. No dumb person is going to do well in difficult courses. For me, by definition difficult courses are sophisticated enough to require high intelligence to comprehend (example: Quantum, fluid mechanics, thermo, control systems). If you can't comprehend them, then you are not going to do well.

But more important (like with everything) is simple hard work.

Azi

Kraxis

10-15-2005, 01:33

Kraxis: the interesting point about my research in Kenya was that it did appear that at least part (about half) of the reason girls underperformed boys in some districts in Kenya and not others was that girls were less intelligent in those districts and not others. Now, that cannot be a pure biological sex difference. I suspect it illustrates a broader point that IQ, like exam performance at school, is influenced by lots of cultural, social and economic factors in childhood. For example, I am pretty sure ability to solve problems (which IQ measures) responds to intellectual stimulation throughout life, especially in childhood, (ie we learn to solve problems) and this depends partly on one's environment.
Yes I gathered that much from your earlier post (about the girls not being too good at reasoning). But I thought that (yes I presume a whole lot ~:)) it was basic knowledge that you can in fact stimulate the intelligence. I have no doubt that I'm intelligent, not so much because my parents are intelligent, but because I was stimulated a whole lot. My brother is intelligent too, but to a lesser degree, and from what my parents have said on the issue he was a child of his time (he was born in 73), so he basically was left to his own devises. So I'm a case study of how intelligence can be brought up in people.

It should also be noted that we, as a society in most of Europe, have become more and more intelligent the last 50 years. This might also explain why there was seemingly such a massive difference earlier, simply because a lot fewer were stimulated. The result would be masses of people not having a clue (pardon me here) and an elite being very intelligent of the days.
Today the very intelligent also seems to be less intelligent compared to the rest, that might be because the 'rest' have closed the gap a bit rather than the possibility of us actually having fewer very bright people.

The guy I mentioned could actually combine equations and bring new reasoning to it. So he is functional as a lecturer, but he claims that all this comes from what he has learned about the given parts, not from some kind of lightbulb suddenly lighting up in his head (that might also explain his rather bland expession towards any revelations). He truly is remarkable.
I don't know if this is just his perception of intelligence (meaning he reasons intelligence to actually be an offshot of memory) or that he truly isn't a genius. But everything about his certainly didn't indicate a genius. There were no quirks with him, and he seemed very much interested in a lot of other stuff. Personally I think he should have studied History or Literature or some other info-heavy subject, rather than a very abstract subject like Math.

Alexanderofmacedon

10-15-2005, 03:16

Kraxis

10-15-2005, 15:39

Well I think if you're really intelligent, you will know that you need to make good grades to make it far, even if they don't matter, which I don't really think they are a good testament.:bow:

EDIT: Good luck with your mean math teacher...Grrr... :wink:
That is just good sense... You can be very intelligent but lack all ability in good sense.

Btw, he is not my math teacher. I'm uni now, studying History while this guy is now a lecturer at the Math institute some distance away into the city itself. We have no contact really, it was only by chance I got to talk with him.

Steppe Merc

10-15-2005, 17:07

Grades mean nothing. Many people who get good grades are dumb. I get B averages, and I know that I'm more intelligent than a lot of people who get straight As, but I don't want to waste so much time on school. Getting grades is not worth it if it makes you miserable. My school is so damn competitive, so I'm in the lower percentile. But I got a 1260 on my SAT, and know more about history and read more than almost everyone I know.
So ignore grades, there only point is to get you into college. ~D

Shambles

10-15-2005, 17:46

I still say Any fool can remember something they read over and over the night befor the test,

Memory is not intelligence,

You can remember everything there is to remember,
Yet couldnt figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag,

Intelligence is more closley related to imagination than it is grades,

The day dreemer in the corner probably has a higher iq than the swats in the 1st row Who Try to memorize what they can,

And when the test comes The day dreamer May get Less answers correct, But they did it using intelligence and logic.

Where as the swats Wouldnt have had a clue Had the teatcher not told them Everything they needed to know,

Obviously there are exeptions,
but as this is an example then it dosent really matter.

A.Saturnus

10-15-2005, 19:01

I did not say that there is no relation. I said: Intelligence Quotient is by no means a definitive scale of true intelligence. There are other (unlimited) ways in which the brain can operate significantly better that are also useful to society. Also depending on when (what part of your life) you take the test the results will be different, not to mention the other counfounding factors involved.

You said that intelligence and grades are unrelated. If intelligence and IQ are related, so must be intelligence and grades (because IQ and grades correlate). Some of what you said is necessarily wrong.
I don´t think there´s anything about IQ tests you need to tell me.
So, IQ is not the same with intelligence. Ok, I agree with that. Intelligence is more than IQ. But what more preciesly isn´t easy to say. Intelligence is a vague concept. But there´s little doubt that the IQ is at least an important part of intelligence. And IQ and grades are undeniable related. Of course can an intelligent person have bad grades. I consider myself rather intelligent and I had just average grades. But in general, unintelligent people tend to be not that good in school.

Whoah, why so curt? Who has been saying that there is no relation? One or two people perhaps, certainly not me.

Well, sorry, but I must admit I find threads like this a bit irritating. What many here don´t seem to realize is that there´s scientists busy with this kind of stuff. And that since more than hundred years. Psychology is a science and not a round table where everyone can put forward his opinion and then a compromise to everybody´s liking is found. You have either hard evidence or just an opinion. What we have in this thread are speculations and "From the people I met..." kind of arguments. That´s ok, but it can´t stand up to real evidence. Not that I´m contemptuous of folk psychology, but I have the notion that it should stand back and listen if the real science comes around. Instead, the real science gets ignored.
Everyone is interested in psychology but no one wants to know anything about it.

Byzantine Prince

10-15-2005, 19:52

You said that intelligence and grades are unrelated. If intelligence and IQ are related, so must be intelligence and grades (because IQ and grades correlate). Some of what you said is necessarily wrong.
It's too hard to say if intelligence and IQ are related, because the importance of the IQ is purely subjective, so I did not do that at all. Hypothetically someone might not care for math at all, and naturally he will do really badly on that portion of the test because of lack of interest. This would lower his IQ results substantially, enough to even make him out mentally retarded by their scales.

I don't see anything wrong in what I said. You simply see an opinion when in fact I did not give one[speaking of the relation of intelligence and IQ]

Intelligence is more than IQ. But what more preciesly isn´t easy to say. Intelligence is a vague concept.
Yes. :dizzy2:

But there´s little doubt that the IQ is at least an important part of intelligence.
As I said previously, that is purely subjective.

And IQ and grades are undeniable related. Of course can an intelligent person have bad grades. I consider myself rather intelligent and I had just average grades. But in general, unintelligent people tend to be not that good in school.
I consider myself intelligent as well. My IQ is actually much lower then I think it should be compared to others [it's only 130]. Even so this did not translate to my grades. I only have average and sometimes even below average grades, but I think I have made better life decisions then a lot of people with higher IQ and higher grades.

Kanamori

10-15-2005, 21:02

There will always be individual cases that do not go along with all of the data. The idea of relation is simply comparing two quantitative variables in a representative group, as in psychology experiments. Relation does not show causation, it simply compares the variables mathematically.

Intelligence is more than IQ. But what more preciesly isn´t easy to say. Intelligence is a vague concept.Yes.

If you can identify certain qualities that make up 'intelligence' you can begin to measure them, and thus to some extent, intelligence.

And, if we are going to say what "intelligence" is changes from person to person, there is no point in talking about it.

Ironside

10-16-2005, 08:34

It's too hard to say if intelligence and IQ are related, because the importance of the IQ is purely subjective, so I did not do that at all. Hypothetically someone might not care for math at all, and naturally he will do really badly on that portion of the test because of lack of interest. This would lower his IQ results substantially, enough to even make him out mentally retarded by their scales.

Good IQ tests aren't based on maths, but logic.

I consider myself intelligent as well. My IQ is actually much lower then I think it should be compared to others [it's only 130]. Even so this did not translate to my grades. I only have average and sometimes even below average grades, but I think I have made better life decisions then a lot of people with higher IQ and higher grades.

Lol, aren't you a bit arrogant here? Let me paraphrase:
I'm only among the 2,3% smartest people in my country (unless they use different ranges in Canada) and I would say I'm much smarter than that. ~;p

Well, you do need to study too, to get good grades. ~;) But I suspect that there's a very high correlation between getting high grades for little studies and intelligence. Do you easily get good grades in the subjects that interests you?

And people with lower IQ and grades than you, will say that they have done better life decisions than you. Some have probably even done it. You're a good example on the human tendency of overestimate himself, compared to the rest. :book: Usually not a problem, until you get arrogant about it.

bmolsson

10-16-2005, 09:29

I had the highest grade possible in school, even won prices. Managed the high scores on IQ tests (never below 150). Still I am dumb as a train...... ~;)

A.Saturnus

10-16-2005, 15:49

I don't see anything wrong in what I said.

Look, if John and Mary are related and Mary and Bob are also related, then John and Bob must be related too, right?
You admitted that John (intelligence) and Mary (IQ) are related. There´s ample evidence that Mary (IQ) and Bob (grades) are related. But you also claimed that John and Bob are not related. There must be something wrong, or not?

Fragony

10-16-2005, 16:10

Proportional lol, according to my latest IQ stats I could easily join the Mesa group, maybe I should just to annoy them. There are 6 (some say 7) types of intelligence, we even invented emotional intelligence to keep the ladies happy. In the end intelligence is nothing more then understanding some paterns, and it has little or none influence on your professional carreer. The most succesful managers are never that bright, that is why they excell at making choices.

Byzantine Prince

10-16-2005, 16:48

Look, if John and Mary are related and Mary and Bob are also related, then John and Bob must be related too, right?
You admitted that John (intelligence) and Mary (IQ) are related. There´s ample evidence that Mary (IQ) and Bob (grades) are related. But you also claimed that John and Bob are not related. There must be something wrong, or not?
For the last time I didn't say they were not related, and I didn't say that they were related! Did you miss that again? If anything, I admitted the opposite. Intelligence and IQ are not distinctly related[as you admitted intelligence is a vague concept], but as evidence has shown grades and IQ are strongly related, because the test itself is built around the teaching method of school.

Papewaio

10-17-2005, 02:44

Look, if John and Mary are related and Mary and Bob are also related, then John and Bob must be related too, right?
You admitted that John (intelligence) and Mary (IQ) are related. There´s ample evidence that Mary (IQ) and Bob (grades) are related. But you also claimed that John and Bob are not related. There must be something wrong, or not?

Wrong and wrong.

If John and Mary are first cousins.
And Mary and Bob are first cousins.

Then John and Mary might be related.

If they are first cousins to Mary, but one is on her fathers side and the other is on her mothers side then the John and Bob are not related.

====

Intelligence has a correlation with IQ.
IQ has a correlation with grades.

But if both have a correlation of only 0.5 what is the final correlation between Intellgience and Grades? 0.5?, 0.25? 0.75?

====

I also disagree with posters who say intelligence is fixed. It is about as fixed as muscle development. Use it or lose it as many elderly have found out to their horror.

Arcanum

10-17-2005, 14:51

I get good grades in subjects I like...yes, I am intelligent! Screw you, world! I will get a job, a wife and kids and be like any other liberal! I will not be special...*drops some tears*

And I do not agree with Papeweio, after re-reading the definition of 'Intelligence' in wikipedia. I think it is fixed, maybe after Childhood, or something. But I think it is fixed at a certain point. Maybe really depending on how you grew up...

doc_bean

10-17-2005, 20:21

Personally I believe intelligence is not the absolute some people seem to think it is, I think it can be controlled, at least as much as our physical body can be controlled. Maybe we can't all be olympic athletes, but we can all do well if we try to, and some people just have it a little easier at the start than others. But potential is not result.

I like to view the brain as sort of a computer and intelligence as the way you use it, with different components:

Hardware: the neurons you've got, the senses you've got
Knowledge: basic data, ordened in a specific way (dependant on the individual)
Reasoning: the programming, algorithms to solve problem, works on many levels
Creativity: that which separates us from computers (mostly), the ability to make new algorithms

Besides the hardware part (which I see as very limited and virtually the same for all 'normal' people) the rest can be adjusted imho.