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Gawain of Orkeny
10-15-2005, 21:26
Birth of a Nation?
Iraq is still a mess, but today's election was a dramatic step in the right direction.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Sunday, Jan. 30, 2005, at 1:04 PM PT


Few sights are more stirring than the televised images of Iraqi citizens risking their lives to vote in their country's first election in a half-century, kissing the ballot boxes, dancing in the streets, and declaring their hopes for a new day of democracy.

And yet, the challenges and uncertainties that seemed so daunting last week—about Iraq's security, society, and governance—are unlikely to turn less daunting next week, next month, or the month after.

Yes, as President Bush said in his address this afternoon, the Iraqi people showed the world they want freedom. But this has never been in doubt. The real questions of democracy are what people want to do with that freedom, whether their contesting desires and interests can be mediated by a political order, and whether they view that political order as legitimate. Voting for leaders is a vital but very early step in this process.


Nearly all of the moving TV footage was taken in southern Iraq, the stronghold of Shiite Muslims, where Sunni insurgents lack a base of operation and where, therefore, turnout was expected to be high. The picture was more mixed in Baghdad (though, according to some reports, many more people voted than had been anticipated) and quite dismal in Sunni-dominated areas. (Just 5 percent voted in Fallujah, and commentators were surprised the number wasn't lower still.)

The election was held to select an assembly that will, above all other tasks, write a constitution. Shiites, who comprise 60 percent of Iraq's population, were inevitably going to win a majority in this assembly. Given the wide disparity in turnout, they will dominate it.

The precise results won't be known for days, perhaps weeks. But the vast bulk of votes will probably be split between two Shiite parties—the slate led by Acting Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and the coalition put together by the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. Much depends on whether the winners reach out to the dispossessed Sunnis and let them have some say on the constitution's provisions—as well as shared access to the country's wealth. (Iraq's oil is concentrated in the Shiite south and the Kurdish north; hardly any graces the "Sunni triangle.") If Sunni leaders see they have something to gain by joining the new Iraqi order, they might be less willing to harbor insurgents. If they get nothing out of the deal, chaos will likely continue.

Much will also rest on the outcome of the struggle within the Shiite parties, specifically between the religious and secular factions. If the constitution imposes Muslim law too insistently, the Kurds—who comprise another 20 percent of the population, many of them Christians—may move toward secession. The Kurds, who also voted in very large numbers, elected not only a national slate but a regional assembly. Thanks to protection from U.S. air power, they have enjoyed a certain autonomy from Baghdad for the past decade, and they are not likely to surrender it just because Saddam Hussein is gone; they too need some assurances and rewards before they settle in to a Shiite-majority regime. The Turkish government, which has periodic problems with its own Kurdish minority, has warned that it will not tolerate an independent Iraqi Kurdistan on its southern border.

Whatever political arrangements are devised, they cannot be maintained without a stable social order. Security forces—American, British, and Iraqi—kept order fairly well today. Only a few dozen Iraqi citizens were killed by suicide bombers—far, far fewer than many feared. But the Election Day ban on motor vehicles—a measure that sharply reduced the incidence of terrorist attacks—can't be extended. There is little question that attacks will soon resume.

President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice may say that Iraq has 140,000 security forces, but U.S. military officers in the region concede that only about 10,000 have been trained or equipped. Anthony Cordesman, a well-briefed military analyst who has been to Iraq many times and has written several studies for the Center for Strategic and International Studies, estimates that only about 4,500 are capable of fighting effectively on their own. Only in the past few weeks has the Bush administration shifted the resources necessary to mount a serious training effort.

The upshot of all this is that if President Bush means it when he says U.S. troops will stay in Iraq until its new leaders can provide for their own security, then we are going to stay there for years.

A sure consequence of the election's success will be the derailing of any movement in the U.S. Congress to push for a swift troop withdrawal. In his State of the Union Address this week, President Bush will probably say that we cannot desert the Iraqis after their brave display of commitment to freedom. And he will be right. If the new Iraqi government wants the U.S. troops to leave, then they will. But in the past couple of weeks, all the major Iraqi political parties removed from their platforms any endorsement of a withdrawal. They realize that they still need foreign troops both for internal security and for the defense of their borders.

One can hope that President Bush will use the election to prod his own bureaucracy into action. According to the State Department's own figures, the U.S. government is still pathetically slow when it comes to Iraq's reconstruction. Congress has appropriated $18.4 billion in aid for that task, but as of Jan. 19, 2005, just $2.7 billion of that sum has actually been disbursed.

In other words, along many avenues of Iraq's journey to democracy (or wherever it's headed), there are many, many miles to go.

And yet, is it too romantic to see signs of real hope in today's election? One thing is clear: The day marked a terrible defeat for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who had declared democracy to be an "infidel" belief. He and his goons passed out leaflets threatening to kill anyone and everyone who dared to vote; they dramatized their threat by killing dozens of police and poll workers in the days leading up to the election. And yet millions of Iraqis—including a fairly large number of Sunnis who live in Shiite areas—defied their fears and voted. Whatever mayhem they inflict in the coming days, it will be hard for anyone to interpret their actions as reflecting the beliefs of "the street."

In the week before the election, several Sunni leaders said they want to participate in the constitutional process in any case. Do these leaders now regret their calls for a boycott of the election? Seeing how badly Zarqawi failed in his effort to halt or disrupt the election, will they now work more vigilantly to pursue their cause peacefully and to separate their nationalist followers from the foreign terrorists in their midst?

Finally, imagine a Syrian watching Al-Arabiya, seeing Iraqi-born Syrians going to special polling places to elect Iraqi leaders, observing that no Syrians of any sort have the right to elect the leaders of Syria—and perhaps asking himself, "Why?" It is not inconceivable that this flicker of democratic practice in Iraq could ignite a flame of some sort across the Middle East. To what end, and for ultimate good or ill, who knows. But something happened in Iraq today, something not only dramatic and stirring but perhaps also very big.




Yet some say were losing and it wasnt worth it.

Alexanderofmacedon
10-15-2005, 21:28
You completely confuse me with these kinds of posts...

Gawain of Orkeny
10-15-2005, 21:30
Well it seem you are easily confued. What would you like me to explain?

Adrian II
10-15-2005, 21:52
'Birth of three nations' would be more apt. That seems to be the main reason why some Iraqis are kissing ballot boxes, particularly those with friends across the eastern border. Americans should be kissing them too, because this referendum gives their country a proper excuse to leave.

Did you read Brzezinki's critique of George Bush's 'suicidal statecraft' yet?

Alexanderofmacedon
10-15-2005, 22:01
Well it seem you are easily confued. What would you like me to explain?

LOL, that's funny...Nevermind

master of the puppets
10-16-2005, 01:20
screw what the media says gawain we are not losing, i just hope this system works.

Red Harvest
10-16-2005, 01:36
:inquisitive: Okay, I'll bite...what's the point of posting this January article now?

Kralizec
10-16-2005, 02:16
:inquisitive: Okay, I'll bite...what's the point of posting this January article now?

My thoughts exactly, lol
Maybe he meant to link to an article about the referendum, like this one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4345482.stm)

Gawain of Orkeny
10-16-2005, 02:18
My thoughts exactly, lol
Maybe he meant to link to an article about the referendum, like this one

Yes exactly. I was in a rush going outthe door and grabbed a quick article on votng in Iraq. My bad. Thanks for posting what I was looking for.

Devastatin Dave
10-16-2005, 03:45
And the Left wept....

Ironside
10-16-2005, 09:05
Yet some say were losing and it wasnt worth it.

We'll know if it was worth it about 2010.

bmolsson
10-16-2005, 09:25
Of course, Iraq is a big win, especially for Halliburton.... ~;)

Spetulhu
10-16-2005, 09:40
The Kurds I saw on the news regarded the vote as a first step toward an independent Kurdish state.

Slyspy
10-17-2005, 03:12
I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......

Bartix
10-17-2005, 10:09
I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......
This should be in front room, in "What is in your hand.. yes right now!!!" thread:bow:

Spetulhu
10-17-2005, 14:29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyspy
I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......


This should be in front room, in "What is in your hand.. yes right now!!!" thread:bow:

No, it's a Back Room thing. The Front Room doesn't want to know that Slyspy surfs the net on his portable while sitting on the toilet. ~;)

Slyspy
10-17-2005, 20:09
LOL!

But that kind of paper would at least be useful. The piece of paper to which I am referring was, of course, utterly useless.

Divinus Arma
10-18-2005, 01:12
'Birth of three nations' would be more apt.

Sure. You can view it that way. Just like the Articles of Confederation doomed these United States to a future with no sense of nationhood. But the founders saw this and drafted the Constitution.

But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation. Similarly, you would be wrong in stating that federalism coupled with ethnic disparity will produce three seperate countries. Further, a perspective of regional autonomy or even regional conscienceness is ignorant of a historical Iraqi national identity.

It is true that power is divided amongst varying government institutions, be it provincial, regional, or federal. However, one must remember that Iraqi federalism holds a supremacy clause similar to the U.S. Constitution.

The bottom line is that in the new Iraq sovereignty rests with the body of people, and the power to govern is granted through the will of the people. How this power is distributed through the provincial, regional, and federal entities is for the people to decide. Something, it seems, they have done. Together. As one nation.

lars573
10-18-2005, 03:59
Sure. You can view it that way. Just like the Articles of Confederation doomed these United States to a future with no sense of nationhood. But the founders saw this and drafted the Constitution.

But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation. Similarly, you would be wrong in stating that federalism coupled with ethnic disparity will produce three seperate countries. Further, a perspective of regional autonomy or even regional conscienceness is ignorant of a historical Iraqi national identity.

It is true that power is divided amongst varying government institutions, be it provincial, regional, or federal. However, one must remember that Iraqi federalism holds a supremacy clause similar to the U.S. Constitution.

The bottom line is that in the new Iraq sovereignty rests with the body of people, and the power to govern is granted through the will of the people. How this power is distributed through the provincial, regional, and federal entities is for the people to decide. Something, it seems, they have done. Together. As one nation.
Your working on a number of assumptions that may not be true.
1.That the Iraqi's have a sense of national identity, I've seen little to suggest that they do. If there was one it was a Sunni ideal.
2.That the 3 major Iraqi groups can/want to work together to build a real Iraqi national identity. Sure they talk about it while they kill each other.

Divinus Arma
10-18-2005, 08:44
Your working on a number of assumptions that may not be true.
1.That the Iraqi's have a sense of national identity, I've seen little to suggest that they do. If there was one it was a Sunni ideal.
2.That the 3 major Iraqi groups can/want to work together to build a real Iraqi national identity. Sure they talk about it while they kill each other.

I see much of this in the media. You propose challenges and see failure without offering solutions or hope.

Are you of the mindset that says, "They can't govern themselves. They need a Dictator to keep them in line."?

I believe they can. And I believe they will. And I believe our current course of action is the best possioble solution, regardless of how difficult the entire situation is to digest. Iraq is a strategic imperative, vital to the future of global stability. As President Truman once said, "we fight not for conquest, but for the peace of all mankind". (or something very very close) This remains true today, despite what destructive conspiracies flood the internet.

Major Robert Dump
10-18-2005, 10:13
Darn, I was hoping to see a thread about the movie. Throwing that thing on is a good way to kill a party, not that I'd know

lars573
10-18-2005, 23:59
I see much of this in the media. You propose challenges and see failure without offering solutions or hope.
I had to go to bed and couldn't then think of a solution.


Are you of the mindset that says, "They can't govern themselves. They need a Dictator to keep them in line."?
More like they have no experience in governing themselfs. And all they've ever had is dictators.


I believe they can. And I believe they will. And I believe our current course of action is the best possioble solution, regardless of how difficult the entire situation is to digest. Iraq is a strategic imperative, vital to the future of global stability. As President Truman once said, "we fight not for conquest, but for the peace of all mankind". (or something very very close) This remains true today, despite what destructive conspiracies flood the internet.
And I believe that the US course of action was and always will be the right thing, executed so poorly that it can only end badly. The Iraqi's should have goten rid of the dictators themselfs. Then it would actually seem like an accomplishment instead of exchanging one foregin overlord for another.

Adrian II
10-19-2005, 00:06
But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation.Indeed, the comparison is entirely fruitless. One major difference that immediately springs to mind is that the U.S. legislative was never split along ethnic lines, whereas the Iraqi Parliament is made up almost exclusively of ethnic parties. The Iraqi coalition government too is the result of extra-parliamentary ethnic power-broking. Etcetera, etcetera.

Papewaio
10-19-2005, 00:26
Why not make is a federalised country?

Find out the population of the smallest ethnic group of the main three. Divide it in say two. Yes that as the population number for the size of the states.

Proceed from there.

Papewaio
10-19-2005, 00:27
Or be mature enough to admit that there is huge ethnic differences and let them become self governed countries... try and do it better then the Pakistan/India division.

Gawain of Orkeny
10-19-2005, 00:54
Isnt Turkey the fly in the oinment when it comes to an independant Kurdish state?

Papewaio
10-19-2005, 01:32
Well they will probably just do what they did with the Greeks...

Or seriously they can say you can stay in Turkey and be a Turkish Kurd or you can go south into the independent state and be a New Iraqi Kurd. The choice is yours. However under no circumstances can the Kurdish state take any Turkish land. That last bit should be backed by the US, NATO and the UN.

lars573
10-19-2005, 03:22
Well they will probably just do what they did with the Greeks...
You mean when the Kurds try and take the parts of Turkey that they consider theirs. The Turks smack them back hard and boot out any Kurd that won't swear alligance to Turkey. That may have worked for like 2 million Greeks in 1923 but I doubt it would work for like 10 million Kurds now.

Papewaio
10-19-2005, 03:28
That is why I added the serious bit.

Give them the option to stay or go... it is much like the division of Pakistan and India...

Red Harvest
10-19-2005, 03:46
Isnt Turkey the fly in the oinment when it comes to an independant Kurdish state?
There are a lot of flies in the ointment. Turkey is the big one, but quite a few others don't want to see a Kurdish state either. It has looked inevitable to me since the 1st war with Iraq. This is a case where I suspect we would do best to accept the inevitable, and make the best of it, rather than fighting it.

The concept in the 1st War and its aftermath was whacked. We had no choice but to smackdown Saddam. However, in doing so we tried to walk a tight rope for "stability's sake." So we settled for a hasty ceasefire, leaving Saddam free to deal with uprisings, rather than doing the right thing helping them along to topple his regime. Result: we have to go in again...and this time there is even less interest by the Iraqis in holding the nation together. Perhaps, they will see some common interest in uniting, but right now it appears they fear each other more than any external force.

Bush Sr. could see the 1st part of needing to deal with Saddam, but couldn't bring himself to accept the consequences/opportunities. Ditto for Dubya. Saddam lit more than one fuse when he invaded Kuwait.

bmolsson
10-19-2005, 06:04
Or seriously they can say you can stay in Turkey and be a Turkish Kurd or you can go south into the independent state and be a New Iraqi Kurd. The choice is yours. However under no circumstances can the Kurdish state take any Turkish land. That last bit should be backed by the US, NATO and the UN.

The Kurds in Turkey will be one big problem to crack. Neither the Turks nor the Kurds will give in on this one.....

Tribesman
10-21-2005, 01:21
The Kurds in Turkey will be one big problem to crack. Neither the Turks nor the Kurds will give in on this one.....
Or for a bigger nut to crack , what about the Kurds and the Kurds ?
The "good" Kurdish terrorists are still fighting the "bad" Kurdish terrorists , and there is a real possibility that the "good" Kurdish terrorists will go back to fighting each other again .
I wonder which of the "good" ones will be considered the "bad" ones then ?
This "Birth of a Nation" thing is complicated stuff innit ~;)

screwtype
10-21-2005, 05:18
Are you of the mindset that says, "They can't govern themselves. They need a Dictator to keep them in line."?

I believe they can. And I believe they will. And I believe our current course of action is the best possioble solution, regardless of how difficult the entire situation is to digest. Iraq is a strategic imperative, vital to the future of global stability.

Yada yada yada. They said all the same things about Vietnam. But the world conspicuously failed to end when America departed the scene.


As President Truman once said, "we fight not for conquest, but for the peace of all mankind".

Iraqi oil has nothing to do with it of course!

screwtype
10-21-2005, 05:35
we settled for a hasty ceasefire

No, it wasn't a "hasty ceasefire". The limits of the action were decided upon well before the US went in. It was agreed amongst all parties that the operation would not go as far as toppling Saddam. And there were very good reasons for that. Those reasons are only too evident in the news coming out of Iraq every day.


leaving Saddam free to deal with uprisings

Er, no, excuse me, the US didn't leave Saddam "free to deal with uprisings", the US actively assisted Saddam in putting those uprisings down. (Helicopter gunships, anyone?) George Snr, who is almost as dumb as his son, suddenly realized after calling for revolt that the result would be a Shi'ite state allied to America's No. 1 regional enemy, Iran.

Pity the sprog didn't think of that when he hit upon his grand plan to upstage Dad.

Red Harvest
10-21-2005, 06:20
No, it wasn't a "hasty ceasefire". The limits of the action were decided upon well before the US went in. It was agreed amongst all parties that the operation would not go as far as toppling Saddam. And there were very good reasons for that. Those reasons are only too evident in the news coming out of Iraq every day.

Wrong. It was hasty and poorly considered. Destroying the Republican Guard was still a valid goal. We had already swept through Iraq to do so, finishing the military victory was not outside the bounds. Going to the capitol was outside of the bounds. Cutting off and destroying the armies that had supported the invasion/occupation was not. It is a case of the leader balking, rather than carrying through. Hence the hasty ceasefire.



Er, no, excuse me, the US didn't leave Saddam "free to deal with uprisings", the US actively assisted Saddam in putting those uprisings down. (Helicopter gunships, anyone?) George Snr, who is almost as dumb as his son, suddenly realized after calling for revolt that the result would be a Shi'ite state allied to America's No. 1 regional enemy, Iran.

Pity the sprog didn't think of that when he hit upon his grand plan to upstage Dad.
Some elements of truth in that, not sure about assisting. However, it was obvious at the time that Sr. feared the fall of Iraq as much as anything else. It was moral failure of the 1st order.

The fact that neither Bush thought this through to its logical conclusion is not at all surprising.

Lehesu
10-22-2005, 06:04
Birth of a nation? I thought Iraq was already a nation before we invaded.

bmolsson
10-23-2005, 07:16
Birth of a nation? I thought Iraq was already a nation before we invaded.

Looks better in the history books with "birth of a nation" compare to "pesky invasion"...... ~:joker:

screwtype
10-24-2005, 07:17
Wrong. It was hasty and poorly considered. Destroying the Republican Guard was still a valid goal.

Okay, you are talking about the military decisions. I was referring to the diplomatic ones.

However, it really makes no ultimate difference to my argument. Destroying the Guard would have been tantamount to destroying Saddam's regime in any case. The most likely result of which would have been a Shi'ite fundamentalist State allied to Iran.



Some elements of truth in that, not sure about assisting. However, it was obvious at the time that Sr. feared the fall of Iraq as much as anything else. It was moral failure of the 1st order.

I don't agree it was "moral failure". As I said before, there were perfectly good reasons for leaving Saddam where he was - a case of "the devil you know". Saddam was very effectively contained after the war by sanctions and the inspection regime. There was no *need* to overthrow him - just as there was no need for Dubya to invade.


The fact that neither Bush thought this through to its logical conclusion is not at all surprising.

Hard to argue with that!