Log in

View Full Version : The UK Pension Crisis ( a two tier socieity)



ShadesWolf
10-23-2005, 15:47
The government caves in to the unions, the public sector booms, the bills mount... Was this the week Britain turned Eurosclerotic

The UK is heading for a major pensions crisis, which the government has made worse. I have a number of older friends at work who are very worried. They have contributed all of thier lives and now when they are a few years away from retirement the money they expected is quickly vanishing. Add to this the fact that unless you working for local government I expect people to have a very poor retirement. Recently my National Insurance contribution increased but at the same time my pension contribution was reduced. Now most people dont think about pensions or try not too. I have another friend at work who is about 40, he has negative equity on his house and no pension.

But all of this is private sector biased, however, it now looks like we will have a two tier class of pensioner. And the private sector version will be the poorer one. Is this not a little ironic as its my taxes that go to pay for the public sector pension.

560,000: the number of public sector jobs created in Britain since 2000 (out of 900,000 total new jobs)
5.8m : the number of public sector employees. Most are in final salary pension schemes
3.6m : the number of private sector workers in final salary pensio schemes
£690 billion: present liabilities of public sector pensions
42% : the ratio of public spending to GDP in 2004 (In 1990 it was 37%)
27% : the average shortfall in local government pension funds - To cover this liabilitiy taxes will have to rise
20% : The amount of council tax that already goes towards local government pensions



This is a long article but well work the read





By David Smith
The Times on Sunday October 23, 2005

Tony Blair seemed to be in a receptive mood when business leaders trooped into No 10 on Monday to set out their concerns about the state of the country. As tea and coffee were served, members of the British Chambers of Commerce explained their worries about obstacles stifling enterprise. Top of their list was the pensions time bomb.
It was vital, said the business leaders, that the government stick to its pledge to raise the retirement age of public sector workers from 60 to 65. Otherwise the colossal cost of pensions, ultimately paid by ordinary taxpayers, would become unsustainable. It would be bad for business, taxpayers and the country.



Only the previous day Alan Johnson, the trade and industry secretary, had said the case for raising the retirement age for civil servants, teachers, nurses and other government workers was “irrefutable”.

“It is demographic change,” Johnson had said. “We are healthier, living longer. The problem is that there are fewer people working, funding more people in retirement.

“For us to say to the private sector, ‘you have to work longer and save more money’, and to the public sector, ‘you stick with your retirement age’, is impossible.”

Blair listened politely to the delegation and the businessmen left convinced they had got their message across. No chance. Blair and his ministers had already decided to cop out. The next day, as Westminster’s attention focused on the Tory leadership contest, Johnson struck a deal with the public sector unions.

Existing employees would still be able to retire at 60 or even earlier; only those entering the public sector from next year would be required to work until 65.

The case for raising the public sector retirement age to 65 was not “irrefutable” after all. Nor will it apply to 1.3m local authority workers, who will secure a similar deal.

The unions were delighted. But for millions of workers in the private sector it is slap in the face. The government has already raided their pensions by imposing an additional £5 billion tax on them a year. It is also saying they will have to work longer. Now they will have to slog on to pay the pensions of contemporaries who have retired.

“They should have raised the public sector retirement age in the same way they’ve raised mine,” said Tracy Hoather, company secretary at Same Day plc, a courier company in Knutsford, Cheshire. “It’s me and my kids who are going to have to pay for it. My pension’s been robbed left, right and centre. I’ve been told I’ve got to contribute more and work until possibly 70.

“I went to a borough council meeting and they said they needed £400,000 this year to top up their pensions, so I said, when you top up my pension by £400,000 then you can stick some extra on my rates. But until then, get lost.”

David Frost, director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce, who led Monday’s Downing Street delegation, said: “The private sector has been told it will be have to work longer and longer but most people in the public sector will be able to retire at 60. We’ve got a two-tier workforce.”

Miles Templeman, head of the Institute of Directors, asked: “Who is running Britain for the taxpayer — the government or the unions?” As if to swaddle private business in yet more red tape, Johnson also announced a big extension of parental rights for workers. Paid maternity leave will increase to nine months, with the option of sharing three months of it with fathers. By the end of the parliament, paid maternity leave will be increased to a year. Fathers will be able to take up to six months of this — with a separate right to six months’ unpaid leave. Companies will also have to give workers a minimum of 28 days’ holiday including bank holidays.

For more than a decade the enterprise society created by Margaret Thatcher has brought rising prosperity to Britain. A thriving private sector has provided the money to invest in public services.

But now Blair, who claimed he would drive through public sector reforms, is ducking the tough decisions and creating a growing divide between public and private.

The furore over pensions is just one aspect of a wider phenomenon affecting the future of Britain. The danger is that the public sector will become employer of first choice, heralding the sort of sclerosis that afflicts continental Europe.

It used to be that “gold-plated” pensions compensated public servants for lower wages. But Labour has boosted public sector pay substantially, as well as hiring vast armies to be local government officials.

Official figures show that the median wage for public sector workers, £453 a week, is higher than the £408 for the private sector. While jobs at the top pay more in the private sector, this is not true across a wide range of positions.

Yet public sector pensions remain better than private sector provision. In one civil service scheme, employers contribute just 1.5% of salary, while the state puts in up to 18.5%.

A new report for the senior salaries review body notes that the pension benefits available for those retiring early from government service because of redundancy “significantly outstrip what is available in the private sector”.

Public sector workers also get more holiday. Only 3% of private sector employees with more than five years’ service get more than 30 days’ holiday a year, compared with 33% in the public sector. Public employees take more time off sick: the average is 10.3 days a year, compared with 6.8 in the private sector.

At the Department for Work and Pensions the average number of days taken off sick a year is 12.6. Absenteeism is so pervasive the DWP is planning to offer staff bonuses for turning up to work.

Despite all those sick days, public sector workers who retire in good health live two to four years longer than private sector retirees, according to a study by Hymans Robertson, an actuarial firm.

This imbalance between public and private is having a noticeable effect, as illustrated by the case of Jonathan O’Brien, 22, who joined the National Health Service graduate scheme and works for the Morecambe Bay NHS hospitals trust.

“The government pension scheme is massive; you retire at 60 and the benefits they pay out are much better,” he said. “And I get 27 days’ holiday. I’ve got friends who are on private sector graduate schemes and none of them gets as much holiday as I do, and none of them, as far as I know, has actually got a pension plan. I’m certainly not looking to move anywhere else.”

This “crowding out” by the public sector — by claiming the best talent — will undermine Britain’s ability to compete in future, economists warn. Last week’s decisions on public sector pensions, they say, were symptomatic of a government that has given up trying.

“We’re going down entirely the wrong track,” said Derek Scott, who as Blair’s personal economic adviser from 1997 to 2003 was often at war with the chancellor. “Gordon [Brown] lectures other people on how to run their economies but he should look closer to home.”

Under Labour, Britain has slipped down the international league tables. In 1997 the UK was ranked 5th for competitiveness by the World Economic Forum; now it is 13th.

“They’re just salami-slicing away our competitiveness,” said Ruth Lea, the economist who heads the Centre for Policy Studies.

“I find it hard to believe that people as intelligent as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair don’t understand it.

“There was always this incompatibility at the heart of new Labour between social justice and a dynamic, enterprise economy. Now we’re seeing the consequences.”

AMID the welter of criticism, the government was still trying to claim that last week’s deal was good for the taxpayer. “The fact is that the public sector retirement age will be 65 from now on for all new workers,” said an adviser at the DWP. “Staff turnover should mean it will become the norm quite quickly.”

That change will produce savings of £13 billion in the cost of public sector pensions over 50 years, the government says. Such claims, however, cut little ice with pensions experts. Stephen Yeo of actuarial consultants Watson Wyatt, estimates the government’s unfunded pension liabilities to be a staggering £690 billion.

Public sector pensions already cost £18.5 billion a year. In 30 years time, without any change to the retirement age, they will cost £31 billion (in today’s money).

Johnson’s tinkering will trim the cost, but only fractionally, to just under £30 billion. In fact, the gradual increase in the average retirement age of public sector workers will barely keep pace with rising longevity.

Yesterday the government actuary added another four months to typical life expectancy: a man retiring at 65 can now expected to live for another 19.4 years.

“If you compare public sector changes with what is happening in the private sector, it’s not an adjustment at all,” said Yeo. Private sector workers face having to save more and work longer. Their pensions will depend on what they save rather than what their final salary is.

So why did the government fail to act? From the outset, Blair and his ministers have worried more about strikes than easing the burden on taxpayers.

More than 1m public sector workers threatened a strike before the election when Johnson told them of his plan to increase the retirement age for public employees to 65 by 2013. Blair, alarmed by echoes of the “winter of discontent” that brought electoral disaster for Labour in 1979, told Johnson to back off.

The fact that the deal was approved by the Treasury was also significant, says Ros Altmann, a former Downing Street adviser on pensions. “Neither Brown nor Blair was willing to take the political pain of facing up to the public sector unions now, for the reward of lower costs in many years’ time.”

By the time the crunch comes Blair and Brown may well be drawing their own pensions. MPs have one of the most generous public sector schemes around. The prime minister can look forward to an annual pension of more than £100,000 if he remains an MP for another eight years.

Additional reporting: Ed Habershon, Robert Winnett and Gareth Walsh

Ldvs
10-23-2005, 18:30
This is also a grave issue over here.

Tony Blair seemed to be in a receptive mood when business leaders trooped into No 10 on Monday to set out their concerns about the state of the country. As tea and coffee were served, members of the British Chambers of Commerce explained their worries about obstacles stifling enterprise. Top of their list was the pensions time bomb.
This truly baffles me. I know it's particularly the case in France: when a company decide to down size, they, wisely, prefer to push the elders kindly toward the exit by proposing them early retirement, instead of creating unrest by opting for compulsory redundancy. It means they won't get another job since French employers rarely recruit people over 50, even though the government implemented incitements such as heavy tax reductions. Therefore these are people who won't pay for the others' retirement funds any longer and will be prematuraly added to the crowd of retirees, further aggravating the bill. So the businessmen keep moaning, pretending to be oblivious of the disequilibrium they are partly responsible for.

I agree that the growing gap between public and private sectors is worrying. Our more equitable retirement system, in France, doesn't threaten the private sector pensions and our competitivity as it seems to be in the UK. I guess that's the downside of pensions. Although, admittedly, we pay more for our retirement, we are "assured" of a decent income once we withdraw from activity.


Despite all those sick days, public sector workers who retire in good health live two to four years longer than private sector retirees, according to a study by Hymans Robertson, an actuarial firm.
Quite funny actually. Obviously, the legendary laziness of functionaries crossed the French borders. Less stress, less work, higher life expectancy. ~D (I mean no offense to our dear functionaries ~;) )


Yesterday the government actuary added another four months to typical life expectancy: a man retiring at 65 can now expected to live for another 19.4 years.
I definitely like insurances sense of humour.

BDC
10-23-2005, 18:56
People need to work longer. Maybe retiring at 60 was fine if you expected to be dead by 70, but if you can expect to live until your late 80s then you're going to have to work longer. Not only financially, but what do you do for those 20 years? Must be really dull.

Ja'chyra
10-23-2005, 19:14
A nicely biased story, it tells how many posts have been created by the government but not how many have been lost in the same time, or the tens of thousands that are planned to be cut. It mentions how they agreed not to change pensions for people who agreed to the terms when they signed up. I quickly glosses over how the private sector are paid more, almost 40% in some cases. It mentions sick days taken but fails to mention the stress involved in some government jobs, everything from working in the local job centre to trying to ensure that out troops are not killed on ops. Crowding out of the public sector by claiming the best talent, very amusing, most people go for the money that's why a lot of civil servant posts can't be filled.

All in all a very fair story................

Bit BDC is right things do need to change, and those changes are starting to be implemented.

Duke of Gloucester
10-23-2005, 21:51
Is this not a little ironic as its my taxes that go to pay for the public sector pension.

No, they don't. Public sector pensions, like the private sector, are funded by contributions from employers and employees. In short, they are earned by the people working in the public sector.

In some ways public sector pensions are a good deal. They are indexed-linked, so their value is protected after retirement, and the chances of the employer raiding the pension fund and then going broke are very small. However, many private sector final salary schemes are funded at 2/3 of the final salary, rather than the public sector standard of 1/2, and, of course, that 1/2 is 1/2 of a public sector salary. Basically speaking, given a particular level of qualification, you can earn much more over your working life in the private sector.

What you seem to be calling for is a unilateral change to peoples' conditions of service, so you think it would be fair to tell a 50 year old that she has 15 more years of work, whereas, up until now, she thinks she has been building up an entitlement to retire in 10 years. How fair is that? It is true that the benefits of private sector pensions has been falling as fewer and fewer employers offer final sector salary schemes, but this can't justify unfairness to public sector workers.

What your taxes are paying for, Shades, is hospitals, roads, an army, navy, police force and public education to support the ecconomy that generates your income. Part of that will cover the retirement of those who have worked to provide those things for you throughout their lives.

Incidently, public sector workers pay tax too.

Cataphract_Of_The_City
10-23-2005, 23:55
The whole thing stems from the inability to recognise a simple fact. There are not enough people working to sustain the number of people on pension. Either face the problem or stop whining. People are becoming too indulged on their personal choices (dare I say lifestyle?) to realise that their choices can and will have an after-effect.

solypsist
10-24-2005, 02:13
in japan, 25% of the total population will be retired and older in the next 7-10 years. besides a labor crisis (they have very strict immigration laws and their birthrate is incredibly low), they're facing a similar fiscal retirement problem.

Papewaio
10-24-2005, 02:27
Pension is a fallback option not a great lifestyle choice.

If you cannot look after your own retirement then you will have to rely on others. So look at how your government treats you now and decide. In all likely hood you will be thinking on how to be self sufficient in your old age.

ShadesWolf
10-24-2005, 10:14
No, they don't. Public sector pensions, like the private sector, are funded by contributions from employers and employees. In short, they are earned by the people working in the public sector.



So the times was lying in saying
20% : The amount of council tax that already goes towards local government pensions




I quickly glosses over how the private sector are paid more, almost 40% in some cases

Sorry I disagree, a few ie the people at the very top might be paid that much, but at the end of the day its their company.

Secondly, If a company pays to much to its directors they it will go out of business. So in effect it can only pay what it can affored in the longterm.

The private sector is attempting to sort the pension problem out, a problem that this government has made worse. Many companies dont offer 'Final sal pensions' to new employees ans other like the one I work for has changed our pension to a money purchase scheme.

But of course the governemnt wont do this will they, at the end of the day the are still run by the unions, as they always have been.

English assassin
10-24-2005, 10:40
No, they don't. Public sector pensions, like the private sector, are funded by contributions from employers and employees. In short, they are earned by the people working in the public sector

I'm afraid that is not really accurate. Where do public sector employers get their money from? And where does the money used to pay the public sector wages which the employees then pay into their pensions come from?

The taxpayer. In my local authority a large proportion of council tax increases since 1997 has been to fund increasing pension liabilities.

In a sense this is all arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. The bottom line is that in order to pay for a moderate pension through, say, 20 years of retirement, you need to save a LOT of money in your, say, 40 working years. Savings of £500 pcm, every month, from 30 to 60 will give you a pension of £286 in todays prices BEFORE TAX, ie, a bit over £13,000.

Have a play here: http://www.pensioncalculator.org.uk/pages/interim.php

So if you have a spare £500 a month, after your tax, mortgage or rent, after all your expenses, (and somehow I don't think many people do) if you manage to save that for every month for 30 years (don't get ill, have kids, or a career break) you still wind up with an income that is, OK, not poverty, but its not exactly riches is it?

What this tells me is that the current system just doesn't work, at all. I almost wonder whether we shouldn't abolish the state pension, which is really just a lie anyway. The only sensible solution I can see is a combination is people working a bit longer and going back to the situation where your family looked after you (which would also concentrate people's minds on the need to have kids and maybe reverse the demographics behind all this anyway). if that last bit sounds tough, well, the way I look at it is why should MY children have to pay taxes to support my childless friends from university when they are pensioners, who decided to spend their money and 30s on holidays rather than on children?

monkian
10-24-2005, 11:05
Heh, love how The Times pretends its not a tabloid....

Duke of Gloucester
10-24-2005, 14:51
I'm afraid that is not really accurate. Where do public sector employers get their money from? And where does the money used to pay the public sector wages which the employees then pay into their pensions come from?


Public sector employees get there money from exactly the same place that private sector employers get their money from - they do a job and get paid for it. They have a set of pay and benefits from their work which includes a relatively generous pension and fairly stingy salary. If you wish to change the package, there will have to be negotiation and public sector employees are entitled to ask: "What extra benefits am I getting to offset the loss of some of my pension?" You can argue the government should have bitten the bullet 10 years ago and changed the retiring age then, but you can't treat public sector pay and benefits as some sort of charity bestowed by those working in the private sector. It is part of a package and it is earned.


So the times was lying in saying
Quote:
20% : The amount of council tax that already goes towards local government pensions


Well lying is a bit strong. Wilfully misleading might be more accurate. The main outgoing for a local government is the pay of its staff (probably about 80% if my field is anything to go by). Council tax is only a tiny proportion of their income, most coming from grants from central government, (almost all their income is from taxation, but very little from the Council Tax) so it is quite possible that employers' contributions to pension schemes do come in at 20% of the council tax.

There are some other misleading statistics quoted as well. The group of public sector workers contains a proportionately higher number of university graduates (all those doctors, nurses and teachers, you see) and this explains the statistic about average pay. If you are a graduate, working in the public sector for 40 years will cost you hundreds of thousands of pounds.

There is an out-and-out lie, about boosting public sector pay. Where the government can get away with it, public sector pay rises by the rate of inflation and so falls behind pay overall. When recruitment becomes a problem, pay levels are boosted a little, but never enough to catch up with average increases in earnings.

The only valid point that Shades makes is that public sector workers can hold out to maintain their pension benefits without risking their employer going broke. However the truth is that this will be revisited, and public sector workers, even those working now, will have to work longer. I do not expect to retire at 60.


the way I look at it is why should MY children have to pay taxes to support my childless friends from university when they are pensioners, who decided to spend their money and 30s on holidays rather than on children?

In this discussion we need to distinguish between state benefits and earned benefits. Earned benefits are part of a contract that needs to be honoured. Thats why EA's children will need to pay tax to support the midwife that brought them into the world now she has retired. Seems fair to me. State benefits are a different matter.

English assassin
10-24-2005, 15:22
Public sector employees get there money from exactly the same place that private sector employers get their money from - they do a job and get paid for it.

Yes but, no but. This is true as far as it goes. But the difference is this. As a private sector employer, if I want to pay more money into my employees pensions, and if i don't want to cut my spending on other bits of the business, I have to go and get more customers. If I can't do that its tough luck employees, there's not enough money to go round.

Whereas if I am a local council I just whack up the council tax which the local taxypayers have to pay. And we do. I've been a local councillor since 1998 and a fair proportion of our council tax rises have been to make sure we keep the local government scheme funded. Tax rises that are being paid by people whose own pensions may be non-existant.


In this discussion we need to distinguish between state benefits and earned benefits. Earned benefits are part of a contract that needs to be honoured. Thats why EA's children will need to pay tax to support the midwife that brought them into the world now she has retired. Seems fair to me. State benefits are a different matter

My point was more fundamental. ALL pensions, of whatever sort, are paid out of the labour of those still working. Think about it. You save a big pension fund. (lucky you). To invest it, what do you do? You buy shares, bonds, put some on deposit. In other words, you lend it to people who want money in their businesses, why, because they are still working. If no one wanted to borrow, your cash fund would be worth nothing (as an investment. You could still spend it on goods and services)

Even if we all save like mad, fewer people working and more people needing to pay pensions off those investments creates a problem, because over supply of money and undersupply of labour to invest in suggests pensions will be worth less.


Earned benefits are part of a contract that needs to be honoured.

But again, you have to note that if I said that in my business, promised very good pension rights, and couldn't pay them, I would go bust. In the public sector though they just rack up the taxes. I really don't see why there is something inherent in public sector work that means these promises must be honoured whatever the cost, and not so in the private sector. Shades' figures suggest the "underpayment" argument is no longer true. Job security is generally better. I'm not dissing the public sector but its not the sole bastion of all that is virtuous in the working world.

yesdachi
10-24-2005, 16:10
Pensions, social security and retirement in general seem to be a big issue in most developed countries and no one has a clue what to do.


Soylent Green is People!~;)

Crazed Rabbit
10-24-2005, 16:47
It seems some here are missing the point that public sector employees contribute nothing to the economy. They produce nothing and I doubt the hundreds of thousands of them hired are necessary for enforcing laws.

Anyone else find it funny that the unions, supporters of socialism, are so unwilling to share the wealth or 'take one for the team'?

Crazed Rabbit

Ja'chyra
10-24-2005, 16:52
It seems some here are missing the point that public sector employees contribute nothing to the economy. They produce nothing and I doubt the hundreds of thousands of them hired are necessary for enforcing laws.

Anyone else find it funny that the unions, supporters of socialism, are so unwilling to share the wealth or 'take one for the team'?

Crazed Rabbit

If that was a joke you forgot the ~;)

English assassin
10-24-2005, 17:42
Umm, yes, even I would not have gone so far as to say that all of the country's teachers or medics produce nothing, but to be fair to CR he may have forgotten that they are all public sector employees in the UK.

(That last comment is not intended to be sarcasm)

Crazed Rabbit
10-24-2005, 18:43
Ah, yes indeed I did not know.

Teachers and Doctors are definately good (though national health care doesn't sound like all its cracked up to be).

I was talking about those in government positions. Like mayors, and their leagues of underlings. Actually, in the US, in a city of ~80k people, an assistant-as in not the main one, but someone who just helps-pulls down $100,000 a year. Here, our gov't. employees get paid well, have great benefits, but I think we ahve less relatively.

Crazed Rabbit

Duke of Gloucester
10-24-2005, 18:45
I've been a local councillor since 1998 and a fair proportion of our council tax rises have been to make sure we keep the local government scheme funded. Tax rises that are being paid by people whose own pensions may be non-existant.

Yes, but I presume they do benefit from the services provided by local government employees concerned. If not, you would be quite justified in cutting back on the number of employees.

Your argument about the security of governments against the insecurity of private business are valid, and what you say about the demographic time bomb is irrefutable. This is why, eventually, even public sector workers in work now,will have to agree to work past 60.

The Times and Shades idea that somehow public sector workers now earn as much as those in the private sector are just nonsense, I am afraid. The only one of my college friends who earns less than me is someone who does not work at all. Many have sallaries double mine. In my area, I am very senior and earn more than most, but it still doesn't match what I could earn elsewhere. Please note, I am not complaining. I earn enough to support my family and have a reasonably comfortable life. If this was not true I could move to another area. Three things I would complain about are:


the idea that I am well paid compared to those with similar qualifications.
That I don't "produce" anything
That it would be equitable to change my conditions of employment unilaterally without any quid pro quo.

ShadesWolf
10-24-2005, 19:24
You are all missing the point. We are talking about pension.

We are talking about private sector people having to work until they are at least sixty five and maybe seventy whereas public sector retire a sixty with pension that we all have contributed too.

A fairer outcome would be all retire at sixty and the government also covers company pensions or no pensions at all. All workers have a choice, they dont have to work in the public sector if the pay is bad. But the longterm benifits well outway any wage shortcomings.

Ja'chyra
10-24-2005, 20:14
You are all missing the point. We are talking about pension.

We are talking about private sector people having to work until they are at least sixty five and maybe seventy whereas public sector retire a sixty with pension that we all have contributed too.

A fairer outcome would be all retire at sixty and the government also covers company pensions or no pensions at all. All workers have a choice, they dont have to work in the public sector if the pay is bad. But the longterm benifits well outway any wage shortcomings.

No, you're missing the point.

A good pension has always been the way for the government to offset the poor wages that civil servants receive, saying that the government should also cover pension for the private sector is just wrong, the employer should as the government will have to for their workers.

You're right that all workers do have a choice and many choose to become civil servants simply because they weigh the pension and the pay and decide it's good enough for them.

And you're arguments about the unions running the government is totally wrong, the government rarely listens to the unions IMHO, just look at the pay deals.

Papewaio
10-24-2005, 22:36
My British Grandfather worked until he was 72... and he only stopped working because the company found out that he was over 65 after they asked him how old he was. By that point he was working as a gardener.

My NZ Grandfather ran a business until he had a stroke in his eighties. He was sking on whistler in his seventies, broke a leg, but because he was so active he recovered quite well. He was a hard drinker, but what kept him alive so long was keeping his mind and body active.

I think for your own health you should stay active as long as possible.

If you can work longer you will help yourself, help the community and have a bigger retirement fund.

yesdachi
10-25-2005, 16:15
My British Grandfather worked until he was 72... and he only stopped working because the company found out that he was over 65 after they asked him how old he was. By that point he was working as a gardener.

My NZ Grandfather ran a business until he had a stroke in his eighties. He was sking on whistler in his seventies, broke a leg, but because he was so active he recovered quite well. He was a hard drinker, but what kept him alive so long was keeping his mind and body active.

I think for your own health you should stay active as long as possible.

If you can work longer you will help yourself, help the community and have a bigger retirement fund.
Great examples of longevity but what is the point of having a large retirement fund if you are to old to enjoy it or dead?~:mecry:

Not much point in having a big retirement fund and poor health either that is why staying active is a great recommendation but IMO working longer is not. I am all for working until you can retire and then becoming a more active spouse, parent, grandparent or citizen in general. If money allows (unless you have some dream job) I cant imagine how spending 40 hours a week at work is more valuable or fun than spending extra time with family and friends or even alone doing something you want to do.~:cool:

Unless your family sucks, then even a crappy job is better than staying at home.~;)