Does the Game Cheat during Battle?

[X Clan]

I am a little confused at the moment. Methinks that the game cheats. Right now I’m playing as Byzantine.

I’m fighting the Horde right now. I had intended to do a build up in anticipation of a massive attack. I got distracted when the entire Catholic faction, …minus Spain, since I had already degraded them to a rebellious status (they started it), Hungarians and the Egyptians (only in Arabia), decided to declare war and or crusade against me one at a time one year after another starting in 1225. I no longer have trading partners, except for a couple of rebellious nations.

So when the Horde came aboard and declared war only against the French, as well as they should, I let my guard down and in 1235 got sacked with 5,9XX attacking my 23XX at Khazar. I finally routed them with just over 500 infantry solider let by forcing them to fight me in the forest….tress now have much gold….(and brown) fertilizer. Lost over 900 killed to their 3600. Most of my Army ran away due to exhaustion during the battle.

Well here is the problem:

First of all….

1. Anybody ever wonder why those d@mn Kataphraktois get totally exhausted so fast?

2. My units maneuver in a formation as a unit. Which makes maneuvering slow at times. Why don’t the computer do the same? I can be flanking a unit and as soon as I attack, they immediately about face or turn into me and bunt me or force a frontal attack.

3. But when I order the unit to turn and block an attack….they move as a unit, turning slow, and end up getting hit anyway in the flank or rear?

4. And why is it when I order an attack to a distant enemy unit, and if one or two in the formation gets hit or hit an enemy unit, they all turn and attack that unit in mass….against orders? And will not disengage.

5. And…why is it when trying to take out the Horde’s, seemly millions of Horse Archery Units that they never seem to:

.......A. Run out of ammo?
.......B. Ever tire from exhaustion? I mean I chased down one particular
Horde Horse Archery unit of 40 with my own Archery Unit they were totally exhausted. Then I chased that same Horde unit with a second fresh unit to total exhaustion and then a third fresh unit to total exhaustion until I just gave up.

Why is it the Horde’s Horse Archers can evade so easily? You can entrap them between two or more units. But they evade in a gaggle and maneuver like Barry Sanders changing directions from one second to the next there by making it impossible to trap them all. You can, if your lucky but only get a few at a time.

So why can’t my units evade as a gaggle? Again, they move/escape as a unit in one direction …and if a few get caught……(See #3 above).

In 1236 I reinforced Khazar with about 18XX I scraped up from other badly need areas and got but got sacked again this time with 73XX to my 32XX. That was a three hour battle.

But Now I have discovered a secret to forcing those Horde Archers into combat without their bow and arrows.

[Kralizec]

1. Because they're very heavily armoured by nature, and adding armour increases the effect too. Battling in a desert region is even worse. Other heavily armoured troops experience the same effect.

2. All troops move as a unit, wich can be unweildy and slow. It is a factor to be considered wich increases the required strategy and planning, so it's good IMO. Maybe if you take "hold formation" off, it will help. Just remember that spearmen must be in hold formation mode to fight with maximum effect.

3. This is intentional I believe, it makes flanking attacks absolutely devastating if you don't react early enough. After taking some casualties with the initial charge though, your unit should be fighting normally.


4. I agree this is annoying. Especially when a single man who is lagging like 50 metres beyond the formation is attacked, wich causes the whole formation to turn and face the attacker. No big thing though, in any case it prevents a unit from getting slaughtered as it walks to a far away target.

5. I don't think that Mongol horse archers carry more arrows then other horse archers. Be sure you have limited ammo on in the game settings. As for their fatigue, they're lightly armoured and fast, so they won't tire very easily. You can chase them down with light cavalry that is particulary fast such as steppe cavalry, especially when they're already tired a bit from firing many arrows. Or you could just duel them with foot archers, and you'll always win.
Trapping horse archers into melee is tricky indeed. Try using the border of the map to your advantage. Use fast cavalry and put them in long lines, 2 thick or even a single line.

I hope this helps :bow:

[X Clan]

Thanks. But tell me, or the basic HA for the Byzantine just as fast? At least, faster than the Byzantine cavalry?

I loaded up on those Byzantine cavalry/Archery units just to catch those Horde HA. And they don't. ~:confused:

[Kralizec]

According to Frogbeasteggs excellent unit guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31444), Mongol horse archers are just as fast as normal horse archers. But since they have better melee stats, you wouldn't want to use your horse archers against them.

Byzantine cavalry has better melee stats then Mongol HA but is slower, so it won't catch them (unless you corner them). However because they have slightly better armour, Byzantine cavalry should win in a missile duel.

Against enemy horse archers of any type I've always used missile units. (Trebizond) archers and especially crossbows will decimate them quickly.

[X Clan]

Thanks. Time to go home now and try some new tactics.

[ajaxfetish]

Pavise crossbows or arbalests will tear MHA's apart while taking virtually no losses. It feels almost like cheating! A few units of pavise troops along with some good spear/polearm units (or in the case of the Byzantines Varangian guard are probably your best bet) to keep off the heavy cavalry and you can't go wrong. And if you have plenty more pavise troops in your reinforcement queue you can sustain the many waves of an early horde attack.

Ajax

[antisocialmunky]

Well, most of the stuff you mentioned are not AI problems. At harder levels, AI do get morale bonuses at higher difficulties.

Also, AI generals get melee bonuses exponentially(seems like it atleast) proportional to their star level while your generals seem to get the normal linear bonuses. This means, you get the Jedi general effect. AI 9 star generals that WILL NOT DIE. That's the only real glaring cheat the AI has, but they are fun sometimes.

[Ludens]

2. My units maneuver in a formation as a unit. Which makes maneuvering slow at times. Why don’t the computer do the same? I can be flanking a unit and as soon as I attack, they immediately about face or turn into me and bunt me or force a frontal attack.

3. But when I order the unit to turn and block an attack….they move as a unit, turning slow, and end up getting hit anyway in the flank or rear?

4. And why is it when I order an attack to a distant enemy unit, and if one or two in the formation gets hit or hit an enemy unit, they all turn and attack that unit in mass….against orders? And will not disengage.
Germaanse Strijder covered most of your questions, but I'd like to make a few additional points. As he said, units are rather unwieldy in game and all focus around the central soldier (the standard bearer). If you order the unit to move, you basically order him to move and the rest of the unit will rearrange itself around him. The exception to this if the unit is attacked: then all soldiers will turn to face the threat.

I do think that the A.I.'s units are somewhat more wielder than the player's: they are better able to fight of threats from two sides (so they must be more responsive when they are fighting). I assume that, in your example, you were talking of speartroops verses Golden Horde cavalry, and the cavalry units are smaller, faster and looser, so they are off course more wielder than your troops.

The A.I. does cheat, BTW, both on battle and strategy levels. On the battlefield, at hard difficulty level they get a slight combat bonus, at expert they get a bigger combat bonus plus a stiff morale bonus. The combat bonus is not that big, but it allows their units to win in equal situations. The morale bonus is more of a threat.


5. And…why is it when trying to take out the Horde’s, seemly millions of Horse Archery Units that they never seem to:

.......A. Run out of ammo?
.......B. Ever tire from exhaustion?
The A.I withdraws HA that have exhausted their ammunition so they are replaced with fresh troops. Light cavalry is also the most difficult unit to tire down.


In 1236 I reinforced Khazar with about 18XX I scraped up from other badly need areas and got but got sacked again this time with 73XX to my 32XX. That was a three hour battle.
The horde event is a sort of scripted faction re-emergence. Like all revolts the number of troops depends on the garrison size. So if you want a big horde, put a big army in Khazar.


Also, AI generals get melee bonuses exponentially(seems like it atleast) proportional to their star level while your generals seem to get the normal linear bonuses. This means, you get the Jedi general effect. AI 9 star generals that WILL NOT DIE.
I agree that high-level A.I. generals are overpowered, but so are the player's, so I don't think there is a cheat here. It is perfectly possible to kill a nine-star general, it just takes time and patience.

[Geezer57]

Also, AI generals get melee bonuses exponentially(seems like it atleast) proportional to their star level while your generals seem to get the normal linear bonuses. This means, you get the Jedi general effect. AI 9 star generals that WILL NOT DIE. That's the only real glaring cheat the AI has, but they are fun sometimes.
Don't swarm Jedis with lots of your troops - you'll only suffer the "squeeze" penalty and fight at half effect. Take one unit to pin them, and focus lots of missle troops (especially armor-piercing ones) on them. Your unit will take some friendly-fire losses, but the high-valor enemy will take more. Bolts and javelins aren't affected by valor boosts, they still kill at full effect. I like to keep one fast cavalry nearby, for the pursuit if the Jedi takes off running. More money if you can capture and ransom that enemy heir, etc.

[dgfred]

Good tips guys ~:cheers: , thanks.

[antisocialmunky]

I agree that high-level A.I. generals are overpowered, but so are the player's, so I don't think there is a cheat here. It is perfectly possible to kill a nine-star general, it just takes time and patience.

Actually, your generals will die rather quickly compared to AI Jedis.

[Ironside]

Actually, your generals will die rather quickly compared to AI Jedis.

How often do you get jedi generals by all the comps generals you've killed? I'm going to best that if you did engage the your general as often and as dense into battle he would be doing jedi-style sometimes too.

I think the jedi-generals is heavity valoured up units, as the valour is individual. They can have more than 10 valour, thus being invincible towards spears (the formula seems to be chance to kill=1.9% x 1.2^(attack-defense), that means that a spear unit got about 0.1% chance to take one life/round vs a valour 10 general, or even less. Exhausting and flanking does improve that number though) and almost invincible vs swords. Use AP units on them in melee. Massive crowding around him just makes things worse as only 2 units can fight vs the same unit and they get crowd penalty added on that.

[antisocialmunky]

Quite often actually, my games are usually Byzantine or English. the English get all those 3-4 star generals that you can train up and the Byz just start with awesome generals. However, I've never seen my last for a whole battle.

My jedi units can take out a CS from the front 1 on 1 but seldom more. AI Jedis can hack through a whole army that has good morale and is relatively(quite) fresh. Player jedi generals also tend to have less vices. If you've ever checked some of the AI generals(as I know you have), they get REALLY jacked up as time goes on. Perhaps imbreeding along with heavy drinking makes you insane AND spear proof, I wouldn't know.

Perhaps it works like the matrix or something...

[EatYerGreens]

Turn on the Battle Logfile feature and check the pre- and post- valour scores for your own sub-Jedi generals. Next time you encounter an 'unkillable' AI general, search the logfile and see what his pre- and post- valour was, for comparison.

Feeding these AI generals on masses of troops with special-province type valour bonuses probably isn't a good idea as it only worsens the valour-transference effect.

Fwiw, when I saw the "How do I kill Kataphraktio" thread, I had to all-but bite my lip to stop myself from posting a cheeky retort, along the lines of "how do I keep mine from dying like flies?"