View Full Version : WW2 German allies at the eastern front
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 10:03
Does anaybody have information about non German troops fighting the Soviets in WW2. I know that there was
Hungarians
Romanians
Italians
Finish
a Spanish division (=Blue Division?)
French troops
SS troops with soldiers from the Balticum
volunteers from the SU (Russian and non-Russian)
Does anybody have more details about numbers and where they fought?
Kagemusha
10-25-2005, 10:13
Franc,What would you like to know about the Finish troops?~:)
InsaneApache
10-25-2005, 10:24
Was'n't Bulgaria in there as well? :knight:
Kagemusha
10-25-2005, 10:31
Ok.Lets sttart with the numbers.
Finnish Army in start of the continuation war(that is how we call it in Finland).
16 Divisions(16 348 each)
and 3 brigades
1829 artillery pieces
235 planes
total of 475 000 soldiers
all personnel included 630 000 people
16% of the whole population.
ammo for 50 days
war material for industry for 2-6 months spending.
Also there was one volunteer Battalion In Waffen SS division Viking 1200 men.
Adrian II
10-25-2005, 10:39
Does anaybody have information about non German troops fighting the Soviets in WW2. (..) Does anybody have more details about numbers and where they fought?About 20.000 Dutchmen served in the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front. In 1940 Hitler had given the order to constitute a 'Germanic' division of the Waffen-SS named 'Wiking' in which non-German Aryans would fight side by side like 'brothers'. Within this division the Dutch were given their own regiment (Standarte) named 'Westland'. They were later reinforced with a volunteer legion, the Freiwilligen Legion 'Niederlande', who were sent to fight (and mostly die, as they should) at the Leningrad front.
After 'Leningrad', most of the remaining Dutchmen were regrouped in the 23rd SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Division 'Nederland', and a smaller number were regrouped into the 34th SS-Panzer-Grenadiere 'Landstorm Nederland'.
Most of the survivors ended up among the 10.000 Dutch military collaborators detained immediately after the war. They were released in the early 1950's, but they had lost their citizenship. Some joined the Foreign Legion, others regained their citizenship by fighting with the Dutch contingent in Korea (1950-54).
Meneldil
10-25-2005, 11:32
I think around 7.000 french served in "La Légion des Volontaires Français contre le Bolchevisme", created in 1941. Most of them were killed by the soviets in 1944, and the Legion was then replaced by the well known "Division Charlemagne".
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 11:38
Meneldil, do you know where they fought?
kagemusha, I guess the Finish fought only in the North, right?
InsaneApache, never heard of Bulgarians fighting with Germans.
What about the Russian volunteers? What about the Hungarian and Romanian?
About 15,000 Danish volouteers also joined up. I'm not suer where they went, but supposedly they were primarely members of SS Wiking. Obviously they didn't all join up at once.
Adrian II
10-25-2005, 11:48
What about the Russian volunteers?Take a look at this article (http://www.feldgrau.com/rvol.html) about Russian volunteers. The whole Pipes-site is good: you will find many details there, as well as references to books and articles.
Meneldil
10-25-2005, 11:54
Well, Bulgarians were - if I recall correctly - the 2nd most numerous allies of the German of the Eastern Front.
Most Russians who fought with the Germans were people from Belarus or Ukraine (I've read the were sometimes called White Russians, dunno if this mean they're ethnically different from the common Russians, or if this was a meant to make a distinction between them and the 'red russians'). They also served as guard in labor, concentration and extermination camps I think.
Dunno where the French fought at first, but they got crushed in Pomerania in 1944. The Division Charlemagne then fought in France and in Germany (some men were still alive during the Battle of Berlin).
InsaneApache
10-25-2005, 12:09
Early in the war, King Boris pursued a strict policy of neutrality, not engaging in any alliance with one of the powers. In 1940, Rumania gave in to Germany's and Russia's pressure and ceded territory; in this context, Rumania ceded the SOUTHERN DOBRUDJA to Bulgaria in the TREATY OF CRAIOVA on September 7th 1940.
In April 1941 it was no longer possible for Bulgaria to stay neutral. Bulgaria entered an alliance with Germany and joined in the occupation of Yugoslavia and Greece - Bulgarian troops occupied much of Serb-held MACEDONIA and Greek WESTERN THRACE. King Boris maintained that the Bulgarians were prepared to fight alongside the Germans, but not against the Russians (Bulgaria owed it's independence to the Russians, and sentiment was very pro-Russian). Bulgarian troops were not to be deployed outside the Balkans peninsula.
As the war progressed, Bulgarian troops had to take over occupation duties in previously German-occupied regions of Yugoslavia and Greece, to free German units for the eastern front.
When German officials in 1943 pressed for the deportation of Bulgaria's Jews, the Jewish population of the occupied territories was deported and dealt with; when it came to the Jewish population of Bulgaria proper, public opinion was against it; the Bulgarian church and their King rejected the German demand; Bulgaria's Jewish community, which was interned, was not handed over to the Germans; it survived the war. King Boris died in 1943, succeeded by his son SIMEON, a minor. A REGENCY COUNCIL was formed.
In 1944 Bulgaria's situation became critical as the Red Army closed in. Bulgaria cautiously moved away from it's German Alliance toward neutrality - the country was technically not at war with the Soviet Union. On August 17th Prime Minister BAGRYANOV declared neutrality. Bulgarian forces disarmed the German forces in the country; the USSR was not prepareed to respect Bulgaria's neutrality. On September 8th, Bulgaria declared war on Germany, now as a Soviet ally, with a new government - Bagryanov had resigned. Bulgaria had managed to transfer from a German to a Soviet alliance without a German occupation. Bulgarian forces accompanied Soviet forces on their further campaign, until Germany surrendered.
In fact, Bulgaria's post-war fate had been decided at Yalta, when Churchill suggested to partition eastern Europe into Soviet, American and British spheres of interested.
Formally an Allied Control Commission Bulgaria was established; in fact, the British and Americans left that to the Soviets, spending little attention on Bulgaria.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/balkans/bulgariawwii.html
I knew they were allied with Germany but these guys were outstanding in their successful diplomacy. I'm impressed.
Kagemusha
10-25-2005, 12:22
Yes they all except the volunteer battalion of SS Wiking,fought in the North.Here is a map,how the troops were deployed in the start of the war.
https://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1544/41joukkojenryhmitykset7cd.jpg
We should always remember that Finland fought its own war Allied to Germans and Finlands goal was to retake the land lost in Winter War.For example Finland rejected all actions against Leningrad and its only supply route Lake Ladoga,while her troops were only ten kilometers away from Leningrad when the Attack phase ended.Exeption from this was the German Mountain army and XXXVI Army who attacked Murmansk from Lappland The Finnish IIIrd Army was under those troops and also made the best progress in the area,almost cutting the Strategig Murmansk Rairoad,the importance of that Railroad was that Murmansk was the only over year open harbour in European Russia.But under secret orders given 30.10.1941 by Marshall Mannerheim the Commander of the whole Finnish Armies,the attack was stopped,becouse it didnt serve the best intrests of Finland.
i know more about the political reasons for the nations joining the axis powers than troop strengths.
i know the hungarians joined to a) fight communism and b) to prevent the romanians having a too strong association with the germans. since all felt the germans would determine the future geographic boundaries in the balkans. but the hungarians were also led at the time by an admiral of a landlocked country who was simultaneously a regent of an abolished monarchy.
i know for most of the war, the germans had to supress the romanian fascists, because the germans used them as leverage against the romanian gov't. [ if you don't what we like, we'll have these guys take over your country.] and the germans felt they could get more political mileage out of a weak monarchy than out of a stronger romanian fascist state.
I would have to say that while Finland was an ally of Germany, they never really fought 'with' the Germans. Finland was an ally by virtue of a common enemy and not a whole lot more. The single largest non-German contingent on the eastern front were... anti-Stalinist Soviets, mainly from the Ukraine and Baltic states I believe.
The Finns were obviously restricted to the Soviet border regions and only really cooperated significantly with German attacks around Leningrad. The Romanians were largely restricted to operations with Army Group Center. If I remember correctly, the majority of men guarding the flanks of Stalingrad were Romanians. This was one of the significant reasons why the encirclement succeeded... the non-German troops could not hold back the Soviet attack long enough.
Other than Finland and Romania, I do not believe that any other foreign force fought on the eastern front as a cohesive military force with its own command and control structure. French, Danish, Spanish, etc. volunteers, along with the mass of Soviet conscripts/volunteers were all incorporated into the German chain of command and used largely as fodder.
There was even a British contingent fighting on the eastern front called the Legion of St. George (aka Britisches Frei-Korps). It was recruited from amongst rabidly anti-communist British POWs by John Amery, son of an MP. This was an extremely small group (something like 30 men at its peak) and it specifically only fought the Soviets. Like the others though, they were simply yet another unit in the German Army.
I believe the Hungarians had their own units on the Eastern Front, and they suffered the highest casualties in %.
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 14:25
....But under secret orders given 30.10.1941 by Marshall Mannerheim the Commander of the whole Finnish Armies,the attack was stopped,becouse it didnt serve the best intrests of Finland.
So this is the reason why Germany did not win ~;)
Tin Cow: Other than Finland and Romania, I do not believe that any other foreign force fought on the eastern front as a cohesive military force with its own command and control structure.
What about the Italians. As far as I know they fought in the south too. Did they try to cover the German flank at Stalingrad too?
So this is the reason why Germany did not win ~;)
Tin Cow: Other than Finland and Romania, I do not believe that any other foreign force fought on the eastern front as a cohesive military force with its own command and control structure.
What about the Italians. As far as I know they fought in the south too. Did they try to cover the German flank at Stalingrad too?
Indeed... But after this they were retired to protect their own lands.
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 14:34
... and failed!
A quick fact check showed that the majority of non-German troops protecting the flanks at Stalingrad were Romanian, with a signficant contingent of Italian and Hungarian troops as well. The Romanians largely held the Don south of Stalingrad with the Italians and Hungarians north of it. This is info from a 30 second google search though, I don't have access to the books I trust while at work. If there are still questions about this when I get home later tonight I will post something more concrete.
I must correct my earlier statement though, the Romanians were attached to Army Group South, not Center. To be fair to the non-German troops, they were very poorly supported, equipt and trained. The failings of these forces was more the fault of the Germans who did not care about improving them. I do not believe that any comparative lack of bravely was fundamental to the situation and I think that they are often the undeserved target for scorn by military historians. You get from troops what you put into them. You cannot expect poorly trained conscripts with obsolete equipment to perform like an SS Panzer division.
English assassin
10-25-2005, 14:52
I would have to say that while Finland was an ally of Germany, they never really fought 'with' the Germans. Finland was an ally by virtue of a common enemy and not a whole lot more.
Technically (and I am agreeing with you) Finland was not an ally of Germany, she was a "co-belligerent" against the soviet union. There was no alliance of any sort.
Krusader
10-25-2005, 15:07
SS-Wiking had many Norwegians & Danes & Swedes as well.
Serbia had a Serbian Volunteer Corps (Srpska Dobrovoljacki Korpus) which at the end of 1944 was transfered to the Waffen-SS. No mention of where they served.
25 July 1941 the Spanish Blue Division became the 250th Infantry Division in the Wehrmacht. It had 18.000 men and sustained 12.776 casualties and was withdrawn from the front in October 1943.
From November 1943 a Spanish 'Blue' Legion was engaged fighting partisans in the northern sector of the Eastern Front.
There were also five Spanish Air Force squadrons serving in Army Group Center.
Slovakia placed a light brigade of 3500 men under German command during Operation Barbarossa. In July 1941 the Slovaks had 40.393 men, 1346 officers, 2011 motor vehicles and 695 lorries under German command on the Eastern Front.
The Italian Expeditonary Corps was commanded by General Zingales and was in 1942 attached to the German 17th Army.
Bulgarian troops was mainly used for garrison duties it seems.
If you want more detailed info, I can find it.
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 15:16
I must correct my earlier statement though, the Romanians were attached to Army Group South, not Center. To be fair to the non-German troops, they were very poorly supported, equipt and trained. The failings of these forces was more the fault of the Germans who did not care about improving them. I do not believe that any comparative lack of bravely was fundamental to the situation and I think that they are often the undeserved target for scorn by military historians. You get from troops what you put into them. You cannot expect poorly trained conscripts with obsolete equipment to perform like an SS Panzer division.
Didn't the Romanians serve well by the invasion of Crimea. I guess Stalingrad desaster had several reasons. Mainly the line was too lond and nobody expected an attack. So it was more a fault of the German leaders.
From what I know the SS had not a very good training. There was a lot of fitness and of course only the strongest were taken (at least in the beginning). But the military training was not comparable to the common soldiers. However they had superior equipment, bigger units and a brave spirit. They did not give mercy and new they could not expect mercy. The losses of the SS were very high, too high for well trained soldiers.
Franconicus
10-25-2005, 15:27
Was'n't Bulgaria in there as well? :knight:
No! Although Bulgaria was allied with the Germans they never declared war to the Soviet. German troops were at Bulgaria but Bulgarian troops never attacked the Russians. However, they declared war against GB and the US ~:confused:
When Germany was about to loose they broke the alliance. They tried to make peace with GB and the US. As this failed they declared the end of their war involvement. German troops had to withdraw from Greece. As the Russians came closer Bulgaria even declared war at Germany. But the Soviets could not be put off and declared war at Bulg. So for a few days Bulgaria was at war with both Germany and Russia. 8 days later the Soviets took Sofia.
master of the puppets
10-25-2005, 15:51
In poland there was massive amounts of resistance to the nazis the largest in the war yet when the russians defeated the germans the resistance did not see this as a new peace or freedom, the resistance was redoubled and brought against the russians, unfortunatly most of the few resistors died during these 2 occupations there memory and sacrifice will live on cause i'm proud to be polish ~D.
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
10-25-2005, 16:12
From what I know the SS had not a very good training. There was a lot of fitness and of course only the strongest were taken (at least in the beginning). But the military training was not comparable to the common soldiers. However they had superior equipment, bigger units and a brave spirit. They did not give mercy and new they could not expect mercy. The losses of the SS were very high, too high for well trained soldiers.
I wouln't say that their training was poor but different. I mean SS troops were almost always the spearhead of the charge, they were trained to stay only 70-100 meters away from artillery parage, their officers had "follow me" leading style and that kind of little things. They were assault troops if you understand what I mean.
And you should remember that there was two parts in SS: Wester SS and Easter SS. Wester SS Divisions like Das Reich and Wiking were elite and at the last years of war they served as Germany's "fire brigade". Hitler sent them wherever the need was greatest.
More numerous Easter SS was far from elite and seldom better than nothing.
ShadesPanther
10-25-2005, 16:46
IIRC Romania captured Odessa and served quite well with Army Group South.
They Guarded the Flanks at Stalingrad along with Hungarian and Italian troops. The Italians were placed between the Romanians and hungarians because they well disliked each other.
They ran from the Soviet Army during Operation Uranus becuase they didn't really have any anti tank weapons and so ran just like the Allies did in 1940.
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
10-25-2005, 16:56
Technically (and I am agreeing with you) Finland was not an ally of Germany, she was a "co-belligerent" against the soviet union. There was no alliance of any sort.
But practically Finland was ally of Germany. Yes there was no alliance agreement, but in 1940 Finland allowed germans troops to travel across her lands to Norway.
And Germany saved Finland many times from Soviet occupation
Main reason why Soviet Union had to end the Winter War was threat of France and Britain. But after occupation of France Britain was alone against Germany so there was no threat anymore from west. But Hitler made it clear to Molotov that Finland was under Germany's protection.
During continuation war german troops formed the bulk of defence in norther finland. And finns would't have survived in 1944 when soviets started their massive assault whitout weapons and troops they got from germany.
although patriots keep saying "Finland was not ally of Germany, they were brothers in arms and Finland had own war" the fact is that Finland was supporting third reich, empire of evil as somebody calls it. So if Germany was evil, Finland was evil too.
Sorry about my english, it is difficult to me explain complicated things like this.
Jag har talat :bow:
I think that Finland was more at war with Russia then it was allied with germany. When you defend you take all the help you can get, that is what I would do.
Tribesman
10-25-2005, 20:04
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/war.html
A good Finnish site .
Adrian II
10-25-2005, 20:19
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/war.html
A good Finnish site .What about Irishmen fighting on the Eastern front? :mellow:
What about Irishmen fighting on the Eastern front? :mellow:
A handful of Irish did volunteer to join the German forces, but they were simply put into German units. There was never any kind of Irish military force working with the Germans. I know that at least two Irishmen joined the Waffen SS, so they presumably saw action on the eastern front.
Tribesman
10-25-2005, 23:09
What about Irishmen fighting on the Eastern front?
Hey were theres a fight you'll always find a Paddy~:cheers:
There were a few on both sides in the East . But I think some of the volunteers for Stalin ended up in the Gulag instead .
Though I suppose the most well known Irish nazi was Joyce (who is buried at the bottom of the hill from my house) , but then again he was American , no he was British , no he was German , oh those damn media types , he changed his nationality more times than Rupert ~D ~D ~D
Kagemusha
10-26-2005, 01:58
How can you say that Käääpäkorven Konsuli.Was the three brothers of my grandfather part of axis of evil by dying in the war against bolsheviks And my grandfather who screamed in his sleep Always until he was given peace in age of 91 few years a go.Was he a? war criminal there was no reported accidents that Finish was a part.So you like to tarnish the name of the veterans who actually first fought against russians and when peace came scattered the Germas aswell you should know what the term Lapinpolttaja means or you dont know....
BalkanTourist
10-26-2005, 04:41
No! Although Bulgaria was allied with the Germans they never declared war to the Soviet. German troops were at Bulgaria but Bulgarian troops never attacked the Russians. However, they declared war against GB and the US ~:confused:
When Germany was about to loose they broke the alliance. They tried to make peace with GB and the US. As this failed they declared the end of their war involvement. German troops had to withdraw from Greece. As the Russians came closer Bulgaria even declared war at Germany. But the Soviets could not be put off and declared war at Bulg. So for a few days Bulgaria was at war with both Germany and Russia. 8 days later the Soviets took Sofia.
I am Bulgarian, and I'd like to comment on that.
Bulgaria took Southern Dobrudja before it joined the war in 1941 with the treaty of Krajova where the Romanian side voluntarily agreed to give that land back as it was Bulgarian in ethnicity and it had been unjustly ceized earlier in the century during the Second Balkan War.
Bulgaria tried to stay out of the war as long as possible. Looking at the situation and considering that there was a 600,000 strong German army in Romania by the Danube, King Boris the third agreed to join the Axis, but refused to send any troops on the Eastern front. Bulgaria did declare war on GB and the USA, and fought them both over the Sofia sky when the Allied air force tried to bomb the capital. Bulgaria did let German troops be stationed on its soil and let them attack Greece and Yugoslavia from its borders. Bulgarian forces did occupy Macedonia as it was considered a Bulgarian land taken unjustly by the Serbs and the Greeks during the Second Balkan War. Germany used the shipyards in Varna to build navy in the Black Sea and actually the only armed forces that fought the Russians was the Navy, sinking several Soviet subs to protect Bulgarian ports and transport ships. However all ten Bulgarian transport ships were sunk in addition to one war ship. 6 Soviet subs were sunk either by the Bulgarian forces or by mechanical problems near Bulgarian ports.
In 1944, the king was overthrown and the communist government declared war on Germany, while we were still at war with GB and USA. The Soviet Union didn't get very much impressed and declared war on Bulgaria and entered it from the NorthEast. The Russians were met as liberators. While the Germans were evacuating, sporadic fights broke out eventhough there was an agreement that would allow any Bulgarian forces stationed in Macedonia or Yougoslavia to come back safely, and the Germans could evacuate peacefully. I read about one Bulgarian division that had to fight its way out of German encirlement, as well as German forces being sabotaged by the partizans (the resistance).
After the Soviets captured Bulgaria, Bulgarian forces fought alongside Soviet forces as far as the river Drava in Hungary where they helped crush the bitterly fighting Germans and push them into Austria.
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
10-26-2005, 11:51
How can you say that Käääpäkorven Konsuli.Was the three brothers of my grandfather part of axis of evil by dying in the war against bolsheviks And my grandfather who screamed in his sleep Always until he was given peace in age of 91 few years a go.Was he a? war criminal there was no reported accidents that Finish was a part.So you like to tarnish the name of the veterans who actually first fought against russians and when peace came scattered the Germas aswell you should know what the term Lapinpolttaja means or you dont know....
I'm not calling any one evil or criminal. I'm just wondering why it is so difficult to somebody to agreed that Finland was ally of Germany. Of course Finland had it's own destination which was far from Hitler's new world order, but it was trying to reach it whit help of Germany.
I'm not the right person to judge was Finland's decision right or not. I think Finland's goverment had only bad options to choose in 1939-1945.
And I know that term very well. But I understand germans too. After all, finns stabbed them to the back.
Adrian II
10-26-2005, 11:56
Hey were theres a fight you'll always find a Paddy~:cheers:One of my favourite movies (and certainly my favourite Sergio Leone flick) is A Fistful of Dynamite.
'If you shoot me down, they will have to change all the maps.' ~:cool:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/26Giula3.jpg
English assassin
10-26-2005, 12:14
although patriots keep saying "Finland was not ally of Germany, they were brothers in arms and Finland had own war" the fact is that Finland was supporting third reich, empire of evil as somebody calls it. So if Germany was evil, Finland was evil too.
I hesiotate to argue with a Finn about his own country's history but I don't think Finland DID support the third Reich. As has been pointed out, she could have cut off Leningrad easily, which would have serevd the Germans very well. That she did not is an example showing that Manneheim was pursuing Finnish interests and not german or alliance interests. As you obviously already know he was very careful indeed to pursue only limited war objectives, and that restraint must be a large part of the reason why Finland retained her independence after 1945, when the Baltic States did not.
A quote from Churchill I think sums up the Finnish dilemma very well:
If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons
in the Finnish case the devil they found themselves fighting alongside was Hitler, but that does not make them complicit in his crimes.
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
10-26-2005, 13:40
I hesiotate to argue with a Finn about his own country's history...
Contries are just lines on maps so there is no proplem. ~:)
but I don't think Finland DID support the third Reich.
Well atleast Third Reich did support Finland (troops, weapons...). Finns and germans were fighting against same enemy in same front, what on earth that is if not supporting?
in the Finnish case the devil they found themselves fighting alongside was Hitler, but that does not make them complicit in his crimes.
Yes it doesn't. But that isn't my point. Finland was't guilty for Hitler's crimes, but
Finns did help Hitler. Even if that wasn't their meaning.
Franconicus
10-26-2005, 13:51
Alright. So we know the Danish, Netherlands, the Finish, the Bulgarians (those did not fight in the SU), the Spanish, the French and even the Irish.
Does anybody know what the Romanians did after Stalingrad. I know that they had two armies (3. and 4.) in the Heeresgruppe Süd and both were hit by the Soviets. Did they recover. Did they keep on fighting? Where?
English assassin
10-26-2005, 13:52
Well by parity of reasoning Britain "helped" Stalin (which was the actual context of the Churchill quote I posted). But I don't feel remotely bad about it or associated with his regime and IMHO nor should the Finns about the Nazis. Its not at all the same case as, say, il Duce choosing to invade France in 1940.
I think that history has vindicated Finland's involvement with Germany in WW2. Nothing that I have ever read, nor any historian that I have ever talked to, has ever referred to Finland as anything more than a nation fighting a common enemy. Receiving supplies from your enemy's enemy is not the same thing as supporting that nation's policies and goals. Please keep in mind that Britain was assembling an expedition to assist Finland in their fight against the Soviets before the invasion of Norway. If the Allies had been able to help the Finns fight, they would not have been forced to ally with the Axis.
Tribesman
10-26-2005, 15:22
Does anybody know what the Romanians did after Stalingrad.
They reformed the divsions during '43-44 and went back to the front , until they changed sides .
Ironside
10-26-2005, 17:38
Please keep in mind that Britain was assembling an expedition to assist Finland in their fight against the Soviets before the invasion of Norway. If the Allies had been able to help the Finns fight, they would not have been forced to ally with the Axis.
I assume that you're aware that the suspected point of that help wasn't to help Finland, but to occupy northern Norway and northern Sweden, to get control of the Swedish iron. Both Sweden and Norway refused that access. Luckily(?)/unfortunally(? hard to speculate exactly what would happen in that case) the Germans came first.
Kagemusha
10-27-2005, 17:21
I'm not calling any one evil or criminal. I'm just wondering why it is so difficult to somebody to agreed that Finland was ally of Germany. Of course Finland had it's own destination which was far from Hitler's new world order, but it was trying to reach it whit help of Germany.
I'm not the right person to judge was Finland's decision right or not. I think Finland's goverment had only bad options to choose in 1939-1945.
And I know that term very well. But I understand germans too. After all, finns stabbed them to the back.
Sorry for my outburst Kääpäkorven Konsuli.It was not the best day i have had.:bow:
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
10-27-2005, 17:34
Sorry for my outburst Kääpäkorven Konsuli.It was not the best day i have had.:bow:
No problem Kage. Everybody have bad days too. ~:)
Meneldil
10-27-2005, 19:28
I assume that you're aware that the suspected point of that help wasn't to help Finland, but to occupy northern Norway and northern Sweden, to get control of the Swedish iron. Both Sweden and Norway refused that access. Luckily(?)/unfortunally(? hard to speculate exactly what would happen in that case) the Germans came first.
I'm having a hard time believing that. From what I read, Sweden and Norway refused to grant the allies an access to their national waters, not to their mainland.
After aq long delay a quick answer concerning the French fighting with Germans. I don't remember where I found the site.
A. the REQUISITIONED troops (forced men)
1. The "malgré nous", French men from Alsace and Lorraine, integrated in the Heer and the Waffen SS as Volksdeutsche (140000 men).
2. In the Todt organisation (150000 men).
3. 25000 requisitioned civilians working on the docks and for maintenance of the Kriegsmarine installations.
4. Many thousands workers in factories in Germany : POW and members of the STO (service du travail obligatoire = obligatory work service).
B. VOLUNTEERS for political reason (mainly to fight against bolshevism) in different organizations : (a total of about 45000 volunteer men in military uniform).
1. The LVF (= légion des volontaires français) = Französiches IR 638 (1941-1943).
6249 men engaged in this unit
It fought very well during the battle for Moscow (very high losses), then reconstituted and mainly issued to anti-partisans warfare.
2. La Phalange Africaine (1942- 1943).
= company Frankonia, 2nd Battalion, 754. PzG Rgt, 334. PzG Division, 5. Panzerarmee (von Arnim).
A company of 212 French European men.
Engaged the 14, 16, 17, 23 and 25th April 1943 in the Medjez-El-Bab area against British forces (78th infantry division). Only 64 survivors (issued to LVF after that), 1 officer, 3 NCO and 1 soldier became the eiserne Kreuz.
The commanding officer has been beheaded by a New Zealand soldier.
3. NSKK Motorgruppe Luftwaffe (= Nationalsocialistische Kraftfahrkorps).
A Luftwaffe logictics unit (drivers, engineers).
2500 French men integrated since 21st July 1942 to form the 4th NSKK regiment.
NSKK Rgt 4 is first affected to the eastern front (Luftgau Rostov/Don) and then in the Balkans.
In 1943 it becomes NSKK Transport Brigade der Luftwaffe and is affected to France (logistics on the V1 launching sites) and then in Italia.
Often integrated in Kampfgruppe against partisans.
Served also in Danmark, Hungary and finally Austria.
4. Legion Speer.
about 500 French men, drivers for the Arbeitsamt.
5. 21. PzD.
The 2nd Werkstattkompanie (logistics, reparation) is composed of 230 French men.
6. Kriegsmarine (1943-1945).
93 officers
3000 NCOs and men
160 engineers
680 technicians
served on ships and in coastal batteries as normal "Matrose" and "Gefreiter".
7. Kriegsmarinewerftpolizei "La Pallice" in La Rochelle and Kriegsmarinewehrmänner.
about 200 French men protecting the naval installations in La Rochelle.
Possible same kind of units in Saint Nazaire and Bordeaux.
8. Waffen SS (officially 1943-1945 but before for individual engagements and Volksdeutsche volunteers (Alsace, Lorraine citizens), difficult to identify because they are not registered as French in the German archives.
About 15000 to 20000 French men (difficult to know because of the "Volksdeutsche")
In "non French" divisions:
- in the Wiking division
- in the LAH
- at least 50 men in the Wallonie Division
- in the Das Reich division
- few men in the Götz von Berlichingen Division
- few men in the 29. Waffen Grenadier Division der SS (Italians SS)
In "French" units :
- Bezen Perrot = Bretonische Waffenverband der SS (80 men, formed in 1943), engaged in Bretagne against resistants (they wanted an independent region and fought against all French symbols), a symbolical unit.
- 8. Französiche SS-Freiwilligen Sturmbrigade (90% losses in Galicia and in the Carpates, 108 eiserne Kreuze)
- 33. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Charlemagne" (Pomerania, 80% losses, and Berlin battle)
Not a single unit but a series of succeeding French volunteer units that fought in the German Army and later the Waffen-SS. The first unit was the LVF, or "Legion des Volontaires Français," followed by "La Legion Tricolore", which existed for just 6 months in 1942. By late 1943, the remaining French volunteers were inducted into the Waffen-SS Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment, later upgraded to the 8. Französiche SS-Freiwilligen Sturmbrigade. Though upgraded to divisional status in February 1945, this unit of French volunteers was rather understrength. They fought against the soviets from October 1944 to May 1945. 80% of the division had been destroyed in Pomerania, sacrificed in Körlin to allow other German units to retreat and they already had proven their Panzerknackers ability. The division had no single tank or armored car ... very few artillery (few medium mortars, two 150 mm howitzers and six 75 mm howitzers only), a handful of Pak38 and Pak40 and several 37 mm Flak guns. After Pomerania the unit is rebuilding in Neusterlitz and reaches about 1000 men. Due to the lack of trucks only about 400 men reached Berlin, and that just while Russians were closing the encirclement around them. The "Sturmbataillon" sent to Berlin was equipped at 80% with StG 44, often two MG42 per squad, many Panzerfäuste, Panzerschrecks and handgrenades. They were organized in 5 "companies" :
- Kampfschule (Weber)
- Company Michel
- Company Rostand
- Company Olliver
- Company Labourdette
They were among the very last defenders of Berlin with remnants of the Nordland division. These volunteers destroyed officially 62 Russian tanks with Panzerfäuste in 1 week. At least 20 eiserne Kreuze and 4 Ritterkreuze had been earned in Berlin.
Hauptstuf Fenet (RK)
Uscha Vaulot (destroyed 8 tanks) (RK)
Oscha Appolot (destroyed 6 tanks) (RK)
Ostuf Weber (destroyed 13 tanks) (RK)
Uscha Brunet (destroyed 4 tanks) (EK)
From the 400 men only 30 survived the battle. Several were executed by the Russians and later four by the French forces of general Leclerc.
9. The Todt organization.
about 2000 volunteers in the armed Schutzkommandos for the protection of the building sites. They also have been engaged in combat in Lettonia and Yugoslavia, probably against partisans.
10. The Technische Nothilfe (Teno).
? men
11. One Pionnier Bataillon (provisory).
No unit designation, probably organized to repair the bridges across the Seine after allied bombings in 1944.
? men
12. Hitlerjugend supervision in summer camps.
KLV = Kinderlandverschickung in the camps of Langenargen, Bad Reichenhall and on the Konstanz lake.
? men and women
13. Flak units (1943-1944).
Vichy forces but under the German command to help because of the lack of Flak protection and the increasing air attacks.
- 4850 men in listening posts and projectors units
- 2049 men in rail road and fixed Flak.
- 2 AA artillery groups (401 and 402) each with 6 batteries with 12 French 25mm AA gun each. The groups kept their French denominations. Battery 1/401 was in Argentan (Orne) and battery 2/401 was in Mézidon (Calvados).
14. Volontari Di Francia (1943 - 1944).
- In 1943 after the armistice signed between the allies and Badoglio, 150 French men with Italian origins (mainly from Paris) joined the RSI of Mussoloni
In March 1944 : the Longobardo Bataillon is formed with these 150 men. They receive the same formation and training as the San Marco units.
Integrated in the Decima Flottiglia MAS in July 1944.
Forms the 3rd company of the Fulmine bataillon (mainly anti-partisan warfare on the Yugoslavian border where many Tito's partisans are infiltrating).
19th January 1945 they fight against 2000 Tito's Partisans : 1 week battle, 86 KIA and 56 WIA ... but the infiltration is blocked thanks to reinforcements (several POW are decapitated by the partisans).
- Also 160 French men from the Nice area in the republican national guard (Blackshirts) = Guardia Nazionale Reppubblicana.
15. Abwehr.
- 3 French men : Louis Marie Maurice Zeller, François Munoz and Alfred Gross used by the Abwehr since 1943. Under the command of Maurice Zeller a Frontaufklärungstrupp is organized against the French maquis/SAS in Saint Marcel (See Part II about the French SAS units).
They captured 1 officer + 2 NCO of the 2nd RCP. Then thanks to these uniforms they gathered information among the population and killed 7 other SAS (among them the commanding officer, Pierre Marienne) and 8 resistants. All 3 men have been executed on July 17, 1946.
- many special units depending from the Abwehr and later from the RSHA (Reichsicherheitshauptamt).
Albert Beugras aka "agent 30018" organized a spy network called "Atlas" in North Africa. Several of its members infiltrated the FFL forces that landed in Italia and Southern France.
Beugras directed also 6 sabotage schools during 1944 and 32 infiltration operations from Germany to France in late 1944. These infiltrations were conducted using allied captured planes (dakota, B17, B24). Classical airborne operations or using the PAG (Personen Abwerf Gerät), an airborne container with 3 men have been performed.
The captured allied planes were flown by KG200 and the "Olga" squadron.
95 men have been infiltrated but 86 were captured and 16 of them executed probably because a Free French spy was infiltrated in there !
16. Brandenburg Division.
In 1943, 180 French men formed the 8th company of the 3rd Regiment. Often Engaged in Southern France, imitating resistants (with captured radios) they captured many equipments/weapons deliveries and proceeded to many arrests.
This company has also been engaged against the resistance in the Vercors battle. They organized the glider attack usually said as being a Waffen-SS attack but the French witnesses have probably taken the "Brandenburg" arm patch for a SS marking.
17. German police units (about 10000 men in uniform + about 30000 civilian auxiliaries, not counted).
- Sicherheitspolizei = Sipo (? men).
- Sicherheitsdienst = Sipo-SD (? men).
- Selbstschutzpolizei = SSP : selfprotection police created during spring 1943 by Standartenführer SS Hermann Bickler (a French man from Alsace) in order to infiltrate the resistant organizations and to protect the collaborationist movements. About 5000 men.
- The "Jen d'Eclache" group : 30 armed men formed in 1943 and operationnal in the Dauphiné area and in Grenoble.
- The "mouvement anti-terroriste national" (in Lyon) : 150 men, formed in 1943 and attached to the Sipo-SD administration.
- In the city of Bordeaux, Friedrich Wilhelm Dohse managed to federate all the anti-communist movements against the resistance.
- the "Hauskapelle" (about 300 men formed by the French Brandenburg 8th Coy, created in 1944)
- Le Corps Franc Français (CFF) created in 1943, about 40 men
- La Phalange raciste, already existing end 1940.
+ not counted : the French Milicia from Darnand (Vichy government) but often used by the germans for military operations against the French resistants.
18. French North Africans.
They served in:
- Todt organization
- Brigade Nord Africaine (180 Muslims Algerians that were used as guards in the Peugeot factories of Socheaux). Originally founded by Mohamed Al Maadi, a very religious man hating jews, who met the great Mufti of Jerusalem in Berlin. They executed at least 50 French workers and are responsible for many rapes and plunderings. Almost destroyed during combats against partisans.
- Deutsche-Arabische Legion (January 1943) that became Deutsche Arabische Lehrverband and later 845. Bataillon der Wehrmacht (commander = Oberleutnant Meyer-Ricks). They served in Caucasus and against Tito's partisans.
- Sonderverband 287 (in Greece and Ukrainia) and 288 (In Tunisia), depending from the Abwehr and later integrated in the Wehrmacht as Panzergrenadier Regiment (mot.) "Afrika" (commander = Oberst Menton), in the 90. Leicht Division.
For the rest, I direct you to OSPREY books. They are good (but expensive), even if sometime too simplistic.
Tribesman
11-03-2005, 23:11
I'm having a hard time believing that. From what I read, Sweden and Norway refused to grant the allies an access to their national waters, not to their mainland.
Would that have anything to do with the allies violation of the neutrality of those waters ?
And the mining of them , which goes beyond violation of neutrality and into offensive action against those States (though I think they only did it to Norway not Sweden) .
Franconicus
11-04-2005, 08:08
Brenus,
Outstanding :bow:
Tribesman,
didn't Churchill intend to land in Norway? Or is this just German propaganda?
Ironside
11-04-2005, 10:33
I'm having a hard time believing that. From what I read, Sweden and Norway refused to grant the allies an access to their national waters, not to their mainland.
the third one is the most thorough.
http://www.geocities.com/iturks/html/world_war_ii_4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign
http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/norge/political_prelude.html
Tribesman
11-04-2005, 11:06
Tribesman,
didn't Churchill intend to land in Norway? Or is this just German propaganda?
To protect neutrality and guarantee free passsage for neutral shipping .
Hmmmm....propoganda from both sides . Both sides were violating the neutrality and both sides took action to "protect" Norway from the other sides violations . The Germans did it better though unfortunately .
Yeah its strange really , the Norwegian episodes for which Cherchill was largely responsible brought down the British Government , and as the man who was at fault he was chosen to lead the new government ?????
Well that was of course because his PM was hugely unpopular and very good at drawing unwanted attention to him. Sad actually.
Churchill could haev sent the entire RN to its destruction and it would still have been Chamberlain who would have taken the fall.
ShadesPanther
11-05-2005, 03:14
Tribesman,
didn't Churchill intend to land in Norway? Or is this just German propaganda?
To protect neutrality and guarantee free passsage for neutral shipping .
Hmmmm....propoganda from both sides . Both sides were violating the neutrality and both sides took action to "protect" Norway from the other sides violations . The Germans did it better though unfortunately .
Yeah its strange really , the Norwegian episodes for which Cherchill was largely responsible brought down the British Government , and as the man who was at fault he was chosen to lead the new government ?????
The troops the Allies sent to Norway were the original planned invasion force. The british used prorganda for instance they said it was because of Germany's dependance on Swedish steel. Britain in fact was getting more steel from Sweden
Kagemusha
11-05-2005, 04:57
but also germany.Sweden never witnessed an economical breakdown after WWII infact it benefitted Sweden.In 60ths and 70ths about 1/2 million Finnns moved to Sweden to have better salaries.Same like now people all ower scandinavia are moving to Norway.
The Grand Inquisitor
11-06-2005, 00:54
During continuation war german troops formed the bulk of defence in norther finland. And finns would't have survived in 1944 when soviets started their massive assault whitout weapons and troops they got from germany.
although patriots keep saying "Finland was not ally of Germany, they were brothers in arms and Finland had own war" the fact is that Finland was supporting third reich, empire of evil as somebody calls it. So if Germany was evil, Finland was evil too.
Jag har talat :bow:
Accepting munitions from Germany to protect yourself from Russian aggression is not the same as supporting the Germans.
As for allowing German troop movements across their territory, what could they practically do to prevent this? They were barely holding off the Russians without opening up a second front against the Germans.
So if allowing German troops to move across your country you are an ally of Germany? Well, we have suddenly broadened the Axis to include Sweden.
But Finland was an ally, she recieved support and supported her ally. She did advance beyond her 39 borders, but strangely didn't cut off Leningrad. I call that plausible deniability. A srewd and very effective strategy.
And she certainly fought outside her own border in other places, such as Ösel and the other islands off the Baltic states. Her navy helped the Germans take them. Why bother if you had no intentions of forming closer ties with Germany? The islands were a thorn in the side of any convoys going to Finland, and seemingly happy she did remove those obstructions.
But as towards the war, it was her own war against the SU, but hey, any help is good help. And at the diplomatic level Finland never became a bootlicking state or a pawn, always staying at arms length with Germany. A good choice in the end, and a show of major balls at the beginning of the war in the east.
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