View Full Version : MTW inspires historical contemplation?
Gotta admit one thing. I wasn't a huge fan of history before, say, 1485 (points if you know why that date is important), and knew nothing more than Charlemagne did his thing around 800 a.d. The middle ages were one big blur, with a few bad Shakespearean histories to round them out, but this stupid game is making me think a bit about things that, frankly, were never interesting before. Like: Who the hell were the Byzantines? Why was the Byzantine empire, as a continuation of the Roman empire, important to influence culture for thousands of years?
Also, tracing the development of the interactions between cultures of peoples that created the various nations we see in MTW, it's neat to look at portions of land on the map and recognize the lands. You know Flanders is rich because it trades like crazy. Saxony is in the center and it's no wonder they get invaded every Sunday, look at the location! I'd heard of Prussia before (after all, they influenced german military might in the 20th century quite strongly), but who knew they were in bloody West Poland? And why do all the people in the area of the Italies like eggplant so much?
So, I'm fond of the game. I think the developers have created a historical aid, in some ways. What is the name of the famous german work which solidified German culture? (Starts with an "N.") See? You learn as you play. A couple of dates are etched in your brain because they're important to the game.
So the next time you're having a beer with your mates, and the discussion turns to the socio-economic impact of the changes in Spanish monarchial authority in the 12th century, you'll be able to contribute, because of a stupid game, where you read about a popup that changes the ruler's stats in Spain because of an agreement he had with his nobles.
Ain't that a peach?
lilljonas
10-26-2005, 01:08
Yes, indeed. Myself, I was always more interested in the history Asia and South America and really didn't care that much for European medieval history (or even less Swedish history, which the schools here do their best to make as boring as possible). M:TW really opened my eyes to how much more complicated the political scene of medieval Europe was in reality, compared to the version that existed in my mind. ~;) I never actually looked up a book solely about medieval Europe before M:TW.
Without M:TW, I would probably still be sitting around reading about the Aztec empire, believing that Aragon was a misspelt Tolkien character! ~:rolleyes:
Come Together
10-26-2005, 01:19
Same with me. I find myself wanting to read up on Byzantine history and such then anything else. The first time I read the faction information left me hungry for more. Unfortunatly, I havn't made a trip to the library in quite a long time.
Yeah, I was inspired by MTW to start researching the period in more detail...
Medieval Europe was a lot more complicated than I had previously thought...
Yes, indeed. Myself, I was always more interested in the history Asia and South America and really didn't care that much for European medieval history (or even less Swedish history, which the schools here do their best to make as boring as possible). M:TW really opened my eyes to how much more complicated the political scene of medieval Europe was in reality, compared to the version that existed in my mind. ~;) I never actually looked up a book solely about medieval Europe before M:TW.
Without M:TW, I would probably still be sitting around reading about the Aztec empire, believing that Aragon was a misspelt Tolkien character! ~:rolleyes:
I was under the impression, which isn't helped by the lousy history teaching in the USA, that Sweden hadn't really done anything interesting.
Ever.
That was before I read this book, 1633, in which we learn that up until the death of King Eric (was it Eric?), they were a big player in the Baltic region, into Germany, and certainly Denmark (they're still mad about that castle about 60 km north of Copenhagen. I mean, they just melted the fountain down for churchbells, you'd think 400 years would be enough to get over it).
And so on. There's a lot about Sweden we don't hear about. As a native, I'm sure it was pretty droll stuff, for you. In the US, we have to have a few semesters of US History, which is broken up into two sections, before the civil war of 1861 and from that point to present. And that was only 230 years of history, it's not like we've got a few centuries to learn.
Same with me. I find myself wanting to read up on Byzantine history and such then anything else. The first time I read the faction information left me hungry for more. Unfortunatly, I havn't made a trip to the library in quite a long time.
A good search on the internet will usually yield a few good links. I use vivisimo.com and type in searches like "golden horde" which gives me things like timelines of the golden horde (and white horde, etc) rulers, their purpose, what drove them to take over russia, how it influenced russian culture, and so on. Magnificent! How many of our friends know anything significant about the 1260s? Anyway, I've been looking at thumbnails of different history portions, whatever interests me (the Almohads? Who the hell are those guys?).
The developers must have been knee deep in history books. Conceptually, it's brilliantly done (though the mod XL seems to be even better).
ajaxfetish
10-26-2005, 02:51
That was before I read this book, 1633, in which we learn that up until the death of King Eric (was it Eric?).
Are you thinking of Gustavus Adolphus?
Ajax
NodachiSam
10-26-2005, 03:09
I definitely know what you guys are talking about. After playin MTW I have totally hit the books!:book: Medieval history was terribly dull to me for the majority of my life. I was mostly interested in ancient history. Now I've bought books and read often. Right now the last frontier for me is between the 16th to 20th centuries~:joker: They are probably dam interesting as well. Total war games have really spurred my interest in history.
Come Together
10-26-2005, 06:30
A good search on the internet will usually yield a few good links. I use vivisimo.com and type in searches like "golden horde" which gives me things like timelines of the golden horde (and white horde, etc) rulers, their purpose, what drove them to take over russia, how it influenced russian culture, and so on. Magnificent! How many of our friends know anything significant about the 1260s? Anyway, I've been looking at thumbnails of different history portions, whatever interests me (the Almohads? Who the hell are those guys?).
The developers must have been knee deep in history books. Conceptually, it's brilliantly done (though the mod XL seems to be even better).
Thanks for the idea. Gives me something to do inbetween innings in the sox game (crazy stuff).
Ironside
10-26-2005, 09:15
That was before I read this book, 1633, in which we learn that up until the death of King Eric (was it Eric?).
Well that should be Karl XII (Charles XII, Carolous XII or whatever in your history books) in 1718. Although that had to do with Poltava 1709.
The Erics were earlier.
And after that we were quite big in science.
Weebeast
10-26-2005, 10:35
Hey, MTW made me sit here and read about templars and hospitallers just for kick.
bretwalda
10-26-2005, 11:49
I got a book for my excellent schoolwork :wink: in 6th grade. I know because it says so on the first blank page. It was about the Golden Horde. I never read it but now I took it up and started reading it...
Vladimir
10-26-2005, 14:53
Good Old Gustav. A great historical game to play is Eruopa Universalis. 400 year time frame and a couple mods that have a great level of historical information that affects game play. Very enlightening stuff.
The Grand Inquisitor
10-26-2005, 15:54
Can I mention Geoffrey Regan's 'First Crusader', as a good prequel to the period covered by mtw. Lots of history and a good read too. You can find it on Amazon.
King Henry V
10-26-2005, 15:57
I have always been interested in medieval history, and it is much better than ancient history in my opinion. RTW has not made me change my mind.
Kraggenmor
10-26-2005, 16:02
So, its not just me! What a relief!
I was afraid that the fact a computer game had inspired me to read about medieval history was commentary that either:
A.) I'm far too involved with this game
B.) I'm a functional illiterate
or
C.) all of the above.
I won't go so far as blaming the entire U.S. educational system. While certainly flawed, the fact remains that this historical information has always been there and available, and lets face it, if this stuff HAD been taught in school, its likely none of would have done more than what was needed to pass whatever test was involved anyway.
There are subjects that take a degree of personal seasoning to appreciate and no amount of teaching can fill the head of an un-interested/un-ready student.
Anyway..
I've recently returned from visiting Italy. Having always been fascinated with the Roman history of that country, MTW also hooked me into being interested in medieval European history and Italy's part therein. While I've done only a peripheral bit of web research at this point, what I have done really helped me to appreciate the whole trip more and I owe that to the inspiration provided by this game.
Let me tell you guys something: You have GOT to see the Doge's palace in Venice! Filled with stunning wall murals and ceiling works all with varying depictions conveying the messages that "venice is strong" "venice is rich" "Venice is fair, just and God fearing" and "Venice desires peace".
Visiting dignitaries would be brought before the Doge only after being treated to a well planned tour of the halls and rooms where they could see these artworks and the message could begin to be percieved.
Setting the beauty of the artwork aside, it was just astonishing to me to realise the depth of planning this had to have taken. We (or I?) pretty much just accept that castles/palaces are built as defensive structures and are designed to accomplish that task. THIS building was designed from the ground up send these particular messages. Geo-politics built right into the building from the foundation up! It was simply brilliant!
Then to see something as "simple" as the original walls that encompassed Rome, the scale of which no picture or TV shot can adequately convey.
To stand before those massive, towering walls and imagine standing there in leather armor with your spear and shield with orders to attack THAT?!?! ~:eek:
(granted the Roman walls are different epoch (and game) that MTW but, still....)
Enough rambling though. Basically, this game inspired (and contiunes to) me to do research that helped me gain a different level of appreciation for something that I've always had an appreciation for anyway. :D
I fully intend to do even more reading and research on the subject.
OBTW: My reading for the trans Atlantic flight? "The art of war". Wonder where that idea came from? ;)
Are you thinking of Gustavus Adolphus?
Ajax
Yes! That's the man.
lilljonas
10-26-2005, 19:57
I was under the impression, which isn't helped by the lousy history teaching in the USA, that Sweden hadn't really done anything interesting.
Ever.
Don't forget that Carolus XII was one of the three major honchos, together with Napoleon and Hitler, to be beaten back by the Russian winter (remember Poltava! :D). Quite an anti-feat, after all! ~;).
Oh, and thats 1632, not 1633, and king was Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf), considered during his lifetime "the saviour of protestant Europe", until he charged headfirst into the heavy mists at the Battle of Lützen, unknowing that the rest of the cavalry charged at a slightly less breakneck speed. Thereby, he actually became the first general to fall victim to the "general unit charges into spearmen before the rest of the army"-bug. ~D
On a more serious note, Sweden became a regional power from the days of the Kalmar Union and forwards, became a major European power in the 17th and beginning of the 18th century, and then lost most of it when tagteamed by the Danes, the Poles and the Russians, who all held some major grudges, mostly for good reasons. The era more or less died with Carolus XII, who rather spent his time in Turkey than in these frigid wastelands anyway. ~;)
Shot in the temple, allegedly by a button, in a cold trench in freakin' Norway. Tough luck.
EDIT: regarding the timeframe thingy, the american exchange students I know always get freaked out when they realize the highschool next door was built in 1085. Not 1885.
I have to agree - MT:W has piqued my interest in many historical events.
If you are interested in an easy to read, entertaining, look at English history (including the viking raids and such) - check out the book "Great Tales from English History" by Robert Lacey - each 'tale' is a page or two - but very informative. It only covers the period up until 1381 - but provides great insight into many of the events (true and fictitious) that happend up in that part of the world (such as why King Athelred (Ethelred) was called 'The Unready', and even what really happened when Lady Godiva went for her ride) - great stuff.
DE
I have to agree - MT:W has piqued my interest in many historical events.
If you are interested in an easy to read, entertaining, look at English history (including the viking raids and such) - check out the book "Great Tales from English History" by Robert Lacey - each 'tale' is a page or two - but very informative. It only covers the period up until 1381 - but provides great insight into many of the events (true and fictitious) that happend up in that part of the world (such as why King Athelred (Ethelred) was called 'The Unready', and even what really happened when Lady Godiva went for her ride) - great stuff.
DE
The Lady Godiva story is delicious. I think Ole needs to mock it, something about the polychromicon lies and blather. ~:)
Why WAS Athelred the unready?
Oh, just found it. Bad policy. Unready to commit. Athelred II, apparently.
The pre-1066 England was quite an butchery.
EatYerGreens
10-27-2005, 02:29
I forget the full details behind the Godiva story but it had something to do with her displeasure at things her own husband was inflicting upon the local population. She was, in essence, the world's first protest march (i.e. not bearing weapons and purely trying to make a point).
I've not read this book but I'd be interested to hear its take on King Knut/Canute, about whom I came across an interesting new take, recently.
The story is familiar to all but is generally abridged to the point of making him look like a power-crazed idiot, suitably humbled by the incoming tide. In reality, he was a canny ruler who was merely trying to make the point that, whilst he was a king, he was still basically no more than a man and his demonstration was to show that his powers still had limits. Again, I do not know the full political background to his situation but guess it involved advisors or overly-dependent allies having unreasonable expectations about what he should be doing with his powers.
Emerald Wolf
10-27-2005, 08:00
'Well that should be Karl XII (Charles XII, Carolous XII or whatever in your history books) in 1718. Although that had to do with Poltava 1709.
The Erics were earlier.
And after that we were quite big in science.'
- ironside
Yeah, didn't Sweden try to build the Bomb atone point? if I remenber correctly, they got to the point where they said... OK... we know we can do this but... BAAAAD idea so let's just put this away."
lilljonas
10-27-2005, 11:47
No, Sweden has never built a nuclear bomb. Though, with the amount of depleted Uranium from the nuclear plants, we have probably had the required parts.
Mithrandir
10-27-2005, 13:32
Moved to Monastery.
Ironside
10-27-2005, 13:35
No, Sweden has never built a nuclear bomb. Though, with the amount of depleted Uranium from the nuclear plants, we have probably had the required parts.
We did have a quite far gone project though. AFAIK it was to nuke the SU invasion forces if they had established a beachead. It was cancelled as the SU retaliation would have been quite nasty and started the nuclear holocaust (US and Soviet nukes the world into oblivion). Or otherwise would the nuclear holocaust already have started and our nukes wouldn't have mattered.
But it wasn't that I was thinking of. It was Celcius, Linné, Nobel, John Ericsson (well he made most of his career in the US) and hole other bunch of Swedish scientists.
We did have a quite far gone project though. AFAIK it was to nuke the SU invasion forces if they had established a beachead. It was cancelled as the SU retaliation would have been quite nasty and started the nuclear holocaust (US and Soviet nukes the world into oblivion). Or otherwise would the nuclear holocaust already have started and our nukes wouldn't have mattered.
But it wasn't that I was thinking of. It was Celcius, Linné, Nobel, John Ericsson (well he made most of his career in the US) and hole other bunch of Swedish scientists.
:sweden: Sweden rocks. You guys gave us Nokia, Ikea, and lingonberries. Celcius replaced that clunky system that the silly fellow Fahrenheit had played with. Linné? Guess I'll have to do a search, my ignorance is showing.
Nobel is a pretty interesting fellow. He lived on a barge in Stockholm because his first factory blew up (and killed a lot of workers and his brother). He invented TNT, smokeless powder, fused charges for artillery shells, et al. Smart guy, but mankind always seems to find a way to use new inventions to kill each other.
Vladimir
10-27-2005, 18:57
Smorgasbord. Microsoft tells me this is the correct spelling, all I can think about is the food ~;p .
bretwalda
10-27-2005, 18:58
:sweden: Sweden rocks. You guys gave us Nokia, Ikea, and lingonberries. Celcius replaced that clunky system that the silly fellow Fahrenheit had played with. Linné? Guess I'll have to do a search, my ignorance is showing.
Nobel is a pretty interesting fellow. He lived on a barge in Stockholm because his first factory blew up (and killed a lot of workers and his brother). He invented TNT, smokeless powder, fused charges for artillery shells, et al. Smart guy, but mankind always seems to find a way to use new inventions to kill each other.
Yo, I am Hungarian (that is Magyar if you please) but I still know that NOKIA is Finnish however Ericsson is Swedish...
(it is not widely know but the bigger bomb was invented by (among others) a few Hungarians in the states. The joke goes: After a long discussion Oppenheimer left them to go home and said: you can now speak Hungarian from now on :wink: ) More on this here (http://www.mek.iif.hu/kiallit/tudtor/tudos1/martians.html).
That is for the P.R. of Hungary ;)
Spartakus
10-27-2005, 19:14
For me it was the other way around.
I had just began my studies in medieval history at the University of Oslo when I was browsing the shelves in a game shop looking for some strategy game set during the medieval period, and then I happened upon Medieval: Total War. Hand of God I tell you. M:TW really helped me remember a whole lot of provincial names in medieval Europe which are no longer in use now, and that has been quite useful in my studies.
Trying to survive as a simulated King during medieval times, I think I also gained a better understanding when reading history of why magnates did what they did.
:sweden: Sweden rocks. You guys gave us Nokia, Ikea, and lingonberries. Celcius replaced that clunky system that the silly fellow Fahrenheit had played with. Linné? Guess I'll have to do a search, my ignorance is showing.
Nobel is a pretty interesting fellow. He lived on a barge in Stockholm because his first factory blew up (and killed a lot of workers and his brother). He invented TNT, smokeless powder, fused charges for artillery shells, et al. Smart guy, but mankind always seems to find a way to use new inventions to kill each other.
Carl Linne was a botanist who invented the binary naming sistem. For example
Ursus arctros (a type of bear). The names are in Latin.
And to answer
What is the name of the famous german work which solidified German culture? (Starts with an "N.")
It's the Niebelunge Not. I've known that before playing medieval because we learn those kind of things at school. I wonder what do you learn in America?(It was ment as a question, not as a critic that american schools aren't good or anything like that)
Carl Linne was a botanist who invented the binary naming sistem. For example
Ursus arctros (a type of bear). The names are in Latin.
And to answer
It's the Niebelunge Not. I've known that before playing medieval because we learn those kind of things at school. I wonder what do you learn in America?
Thanks Miho.
Our education system is based, in part, on the premise that the rich people in the US didn't like the idea that the poor could vote, because the poor don't read or write, and therefore a "bad" (for the rich) candidate could be elected by the ignorant. Therefore, they created schools in order to better educate the poor ignorant slobs who vote. This is reflected in our federal laws on schooling, known colloquially as Title 9 of the US Code, where we are told we must have classes in US History, more US history, etc. It's been 20 years since I took biology, and I haven't done a thing in that field since college, and have no reason to think on those things as they don't interest me. Ask me something about British Tudor history, 1485 to 1603, and I'll probably have a fairly accurate answer off the top of my head. Or, ask me about teaching theories for children, since that seems to be what I'm hearing a lot about these days.
So the answer is, not much is taught in school in the U.S., and even less is retained (especially after 30 some years). Except for the question, "Why did Russia invade Afghanistan" (ans. in support of a Marxist coup from 1975, which was collapsing and the USSR was requested to help in 1979, which they did; and pulled out in 1988) which came up the other day at work, we rarely need or use history in my workplace.
I enjoy that this game can inspire learning and research, however, which was my original point in this thread. Did the designers intend this as a side effect? Did they have any idea it would cause this?
Yo, I am Hungarian (that is Magyar if you please) but I still know that NOKIA is Finnish however Ericsson is Swedish...
(it is not widely know but the bigger bomb was invented by (among others) a few Hungarians in the states. The joke goes: After a long discussion Oppenheimer left them to go home and said: you can now speak Hungarian from now on :wink: ) More on this here (http://www.mek.iif.hu/kiallit/tudtor/tudos1/martians.html).
That is for the P.R. of Hungary ;)
This is a tough forum. You can't gloss over anything. Say something about Russia, someone from Russia nails you on it. Say something about Hungary, there's a Hungarian (Magyar!) in the house. Say, isn't "Magyar" one of the tribes mentioned in the early books of the bible, one of the mean kick-butt tribes? They aren't really given good press as they seem to be hell bent on invading most of the time.
Awesome link. I read some, but there's a LOT of reading there. Who knew? Hungarians! And here all I knew about you was there is a famous beef stew, and of course Bull's Blood.
I'm not sure what their intensions were. The only way to find out is to ask them. I personally think that they might have had some idea what effect this computer game on people. Afterall people are effected in many different ways mostly bad. It's nice to see that a computer game can effect people in the way to encourage studying. On tv we often hear about how games encourage violence, hatred, ... but we don't hear about the good effects. They help us to relax, release the stress and even to learn something new. Of course not all games are like that, most of them do encourage bad emotions, but there are plenty of quality games which are almost never attributed for bringing people together and for making them interested in the world around them.
Thank you on such a detailed description of the American school system.
there is a famous beef stew.
Gullash... Mmmm... Could use some by now.~:)
the Almohads? Who the hell are those guys?
I think I know who the Almohads were. I think they were an Arabic dynasty. I'm not sure because we call them differently in my country(omejidi),but they must be due to their starting location . They ruled the Arabs from mid 7th to the mid 8th century. So what happened to them, you might ask. Well there was a civil war which they obviously lost (just like in Medieval). Another dynasty came to power, we call them abasidi (if anyone knows their name in english please tell me so I can correct this). Almost all of the Almohads were killed in a coup, but one of them escaped and went to Spain. There he established a new state called the Cordoban kalifate which was totally separated from the other Arab states. Soon after they separated other dynasties also wanted some more power and this was the beginning of the end for the Arab states. Abasidi (again help with the name) weren't strong enough to stop the other dynasties from gaining more and more power so they asked for help. Who do you think they asked? (Hint: A faction in MTW) You guessed it the Seldjuk Turks(I say Seldjuk because later on in history there will be Ottoman Turks). So this where Turks get into the picture. The Turks were a tribe of nomads somewhere near Pakistan and India and they got powerful so they gladly accepted the call for help from the Abasids. Did they help them? Of course not. And why should they when they could take out the weakened Arabs which they did :duel: . Seems that they should have never started the civil war in the first place. This little story shows that what goes around comes around. Thats why history is a very important subject in school. You can learn on someone elses mistakes not only on yours. For example if Hitler knew what happened to Napoleon in his war with Russia he would have never invaded them, but luckily for us he did and he lost.
I hope you found some of this information useful and that you enjoyed the brief Arab history. If you know what the other dynasties name was in english please let me know. If you would like to know more you can ask me or my friend Knight Templar who is the biggest history buff I know and he's an expert on crusades (I mean the real ones, not just the medieval ones). So kids study history. Its fun, trust me. I'm glad to see that a computer game has inspired its players to research and to find out more about the world they live in.
Geoffrey S
10-28-2005, 18:34
I was already vaguely interested in history before playing MTW, but after playing that and RTW it became a more serious hobby; particularly after keeping up with EB and numerous topics in the Monastery I've been fascinated.
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