A few questions about the Byzantine Emperors

[Meneldil]

I just saw on Wikipedia that some Byzantine Emperors were still using what I think is the 'Roman naming convention' ie, Justinian I's name was Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus, Constantine I was Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus.
Was this naming convention still in use during the 9th century ? Were the name rather in their latin (as shown on Wikipedia) or in their greek version ?

[edyzmedieval]

In the 9th century they forever left their latin origin.
Every name was in Greek.

~:)

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Until Herakleios I (early 600s) the Latin titles were used. He replaced them with Basileus. Later ones added or subtracted things such as Sebastokrator etc.

The term Byzantine was invented by the humanist Hieronymus Wolf (17.c.) and spread out by Montesquieu. The empire and people always referred to themselves as Romans (Romaioi). Constantinopolis was not Byzantion/Byzantium, it was built on top of it, on third times the land, by the name "New Rome".

(Still today, the Ecumenic Orthodox Patriarch of Istanbul is officially addressed as Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, the Ecumenic Patriarch.)
.

[edyzmedieval]

Good explanation Mouz!!! ~:cheers:

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks sir. :bow:

With your kind encouragement, let me add the Greek words in their original script. (I was just too lazy to switch the keyb.)

Basileus (actually pronounced Vasileus): Βασιλευς
Sebastokrator (Sevastokrator; hence modern day Sıvas, from Σεβαστεια): Σεβαστοκρατορ
Romaioi: Ρωμαιοι
Patriarch's title (might be en error or two in this one, from memory): Αρχιεπίσκοπος Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, Νέας Ρώμης, Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης
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[Rosacrux redux]

Mouzaphere I do not feel the need to intervene since you are doing such a great job (even though the words you wrote seem rather absurd in Greek, due to the absence of omega), just one little point. The term Byzantine was used by contemporary scholars some times to describe what we call today "Byzantine" empire. Priscus, for instance, uses the term "historia Vizantinae" (Ιστορία Βυζαντινή) in one of his works. Of course this term was confined in space and time and definitely was not accepted by anyone besides some scholars (the officials and public talked about "The Roman Empire" and that's it).

So, Wolf didn't come up with the term, he just found a convenient term some eastern Romans used themselves and adopted it, to differiantate the "decadent" easteners from the "true" Romans...

Ah, btw the latter should read Αρχιεπίσκοπος Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, Νέας Ρώμης, Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης

[Meneldil]

Well, I know Byzantine is a made up term. That wasn't really my question.

From what I understood, roman-like names (such as Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus) weren't used anymore in 843 ? Alexius Comnenus was Alexius Comnenus, period ? Not something like Flavius Tiberius Alexius Comnenus ?

[Meneldil]

To be deleted

[Byzantine Prince]

The term Byzantine was used by contemporary scholars some times to describe what we call today "Byzantine" empire. Priscus, for instance, uses the term "historia Vizantinae" (Ιστορία Βυζαντινή) in one of his works. Of course this term was confined in space and time and definitely was not accepted by anyone besides some scholars (the officials and public talked about "The Roman Empire" and that's it).
That is interesting. 'Byzantine' is not simply a made up term, it is there to describe the cradle of power of the Eastern Roman Empire. Even though the name of the city was changed, everyone knew what it really was. History cannot be fully erased.



Ah, btw the latter should read Αρχιεπίσκοπος Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, Νέας Ρώμης, Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης
I bet they still use polytonic. You know those old-school priests. ~:rolleyes:

[Mouzafphaerre]

Mouzaphere I do not feel the need to intervene since you are doing such a great job (even though the words you wrote seem rather absurd in Greek, due to the absence of omega), just one little point. The term Byzantine was used by contemporary scholars some times to describe what we call today "Byzantine" empire. Priscus, for instance, uses the term "historia Vizantinae" (Ιστορία Βυζαντινή) in one of his works. Of course this term was confined in space and time and definitely was not accepted by anyone besides some scholars (the officials and public talked about "The Roman Empire" and that's it).

So, Wolf didn't come up with the term, he just found a convenient term some eastern Romans used themselves and adopted it, to differiantate the "decadent" easteners from the "true" Romans...

Ah, btw the latter should read Αρχιεπίσκοπος Κωνσταντινουπόλεως, Νέας Ρώμης, Οικουμενικός Πατριάρχης
.
:bow:

Somewhere deep in my mind a contemporary "Byzantine" reference was lurking. Thanks for pointing it out, and also correcting my spelling errors. (Damn Omega ~D). I don't speak Greek (though this will start to change in a month ~;)), just read and (porly) write it. Aside from Priscus, there must be some Greek scholar, migrated to Italy sometime around early 15th century, who was also named "Byzantinus" over there. So it seems to be basically a humanist era convention.

*edits the spelling*
.

[L'Impresario]

Alexius Comnenus was Alexius Comnenus, period ? Not something like Flavius Tiberius Alexius Comnenus ?
Alexius Comnenus would be the latin equivalent of his name, Alexios Komnenos (Αλέξιος Κομνηνός). Additonally in the byzantine historiography I 've read from the originals, the names are only in Greek.

[Mouzafphaerre]

That is interesting. 'Byzantine' is not simply a made up term, it is there to describe the cradle of power of the Eastern Roman Empire. Even though the name of the city was changed, everyone knew what it really was. History cannot be fully erased.



I bet they still use polytonic. You know those old-school priests. ~:rolleyes:
.
The necessity to name the Byzantine Empire (or Bartixian, whatever other than Roman) emerged for differentiating it from the western contender, Heiliges Römisces Reich. :knight:

IMS, the old school priests who made the website are using monotonic. ~;) Let me check...

http://www.ec-patr.gr/

Looks monotonic to me.
.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Well, I know Byzantine is a made up term. That wasn't really my question.

From what I understood, roman-like names (such as Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus) weren't used anymore in 843 ? Alexius Comnenus was Alexius Comnenus, period ? Not something like Flavius Tiberius Alexius Comnenus ?
.
It must be all Greek from Herakleios on, unless there were one or more exceptional smartasses. ~;)

Oh, some Hellenized Latin names were used afterwards, but as names, not titles. *checks* OK, we have one Tiberios at least.

...

GAH! Wiki lists Herakleios as Flavius Heraclius Augustus. :end: He must be the last one with those titles, but I'm almost sure he later dropped all of them in favour of Basileus.
.

[Seleukos]

The full title of the Byzantine emperor was :
"πιστός εν χριστώ τω Θεώ βασιλεύς και αυτοκράτωρ Ρωμαίων"
"pistos en christo to theo vasilefs ke aftokrator Rhomeon"
"faithful in Christ,to God king and emperor of the Romans"

PS:Many inscription on coins are still in latin even in the 10th century !

[L'Impresario]

IMS, the old school priests who made the website are using monotonic. Let me check...

http://www.ec-patr.gr/

Looks monotonic to me.
If you enter the site you 'll see clearly it's "katharevousa", polytonic ofcourse;). It'd be a big surprise if one of the most conservative parties on language matters would have made the jump to "Dimotiki" heh
They don't like changes overall, so why alter their official position adopted 200 years ago ;)

[Meneldil]

Could anyone help me finding byzantine names from the 9th to the 12th century ? I already found a few there and there, but I wouldn't mind using a few more for AoVaF.

Are these names (http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/Europe-Medieval/Byzantium.htm) valid for this era ?
There's also this wikipedia list (http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Byzantine_Names#A)

[Mouzafphaerre]

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We might have done some for the modlet last year. Will check...
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[Mouzafphaerre]

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Here (http://data.forumhoster.com/forum_mtw/index.php?showtopic=21) are the names Solo compiled and the ones I edited/corrected from MTW.
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[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I would just like to add that the temr "byzantine" is not entirely created. In the "Strategikon" of Kekaumenos, the writer refers to a person from Constantinople as being "byzantinos" or byzantine.

[Byzantine Prince]

.
The necessity to name the Byzantine Empire (or Bartixian, whatever other than Roman) emerged for differentiating it from the western contender, Heiliges Römisces Reich. :knight:

IMS, the old school priests who made the website are using monotonic. ~;) Let me check...

http://www.ec-patr.gr/

Looks monotonic to me.
.
It's polytonic. I told you they are old-school. :knight:

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Polytonic indeed. Don't judge a book website from the cover front page. I stand corrected.
.

[Meneldil]

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Here (http://data.forumhoster.com/forum_mtw/index.php?showtopic=21) are the names Solo compiled and the ones I edited/corrected from MTW.
.

Sorry, I don't have access to this topic, even after registering on the board ~:mecry:

[Mouzafphaerre]

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You do! Just set the time cutter to 'from beginning'. ~:)

Well, in case Solo made some nasty permission adjustments anyway, here is the list:

Me:

/byzantine_forenames
["Aleksios"] {"Aleksios"}
["Andronikos"] {"Andronikos"}
["Basileios"] {"Basileios"}
["Georgios"] {"Georgios"}
["Gregorios"] {"Gregorios"}
["Ioannes"] {"Ioannes"}
["Isaakios"] {"Isaakios"}
["Konstantinos"] {"Konstantinos"}
["Manuel"] {"Manuel"}
["Mikhael"] {"Mikhael"}
["Nikephoros"] {"Nikephoros"}
["Romanos"] {"Romanos"}
["Stephanos"] {"Stephanos"}
["Theodoros"] {"Theodoros"}
["Theodosios"] {"Theodosios"}

//byzantine_surnames

["Palaiologos"] {"Palaiologos"}
["Komnenos"] {"Komnenos"}
["Angelos"] {"Angelos"}
["Argyros"] {"Argyros"}
["Basilakios"] {"Basilakios"}
["Botaneiates"] {"Botaneiates"}
["Branas"] {"Branas"}
["Bryennios"] {"Bryennios"}
["Dalas"] {"Dalas"}
["Diogenes"] {"Diogenes"}
["Dukas"] {"Dukas"}
["Kalaphates"] {"Kalaphates"}
["Kantakuzenos"] {"Kantakuzenos"}
["Kerularios"] {"Kerularios"}
["Laskaris"] {"Laskaris"}
["Makrembolites"] {"Makrembolites"}
["Maniakes"] {"Maniakes"}
["Maurokordatos"] {"Maurokordatos"}
["Melissenos"] {"Melissenos"}
["Monomakhos"] {"Monomakhos"}
["Murtzuphlos"] {"Murtzuphlos"}
["Nikephoritzes"] {"Nikephoritzes"}
["Orphanotrophos"] {"Orphanotrophos"}
["Paphlagonianos"] {"Paphlagonianos"}
["Phokas"] {"Phokas"}
["Skholarios"] {"Skholarios"}
["Stratiokos"] {"Stratiokos"}
["Tzimiskes"] {"Tzimiskes"}
["Vatatzes"] {"Vatatzes"}
["Boradiotes"] {"Boradiotes"}
["Branas"] {"Branas"}
["Akropolites"] {"Akropolites"}
["Bekkos"] {"Bekkos"}
["Palamas"] {"Palamas"}
["Sphrantzes"] {"Sphrantzes"}

Solo:

forenames (ordered so that appearance is accurate) spelling to correct for greek

Source is 11th-12th century seals (same as family names)

Ioannes // 347
Ioannes
Ioannes
Michael // 215
Michael
Konstantinos // 199
Konstantinos
Leon // 139
Basileios // 123
Theodoros // 122
Niketas // 99
Nikolaos // 96
Ioannes
Ioannes
Ioannes
Michael
Michael
Konstantinos
Konstantinos
Leon
Basileios
Theodoros
Niketas
Nikolaos
Adrianos // Less than 50 from now (10-50 range or so)
Alexios
Andronikos
Bardas
Christophoros
Anastasios
Demetrios
Epiphanios
Eustathios
Eustratios
Euthymios
Georgios
Gregorios
Manuel
Nikephoros
Paulos
Petros
Romanos
Stephanos
Symeon
Theodosios
Theophanes
Theophylaktos


and 405 confirmed names (Paleologios and Komnenos should be repeated at start)

"Abalantes"
"Aboudimos"
"Adralestos"
"Agallianos"
"Agrites"
"Akapnes"
"Akropolites"
"Alopos"
"Alousianos"
"Alyates"
"Amaseianos"
"Amiropoulos"
"Anemas"
"Anatolikos"
"Andreiomenos"
"Androsalites"
"Angelos"
"Angoures"
"Anthemiotes"
"Antiochites"
"Antiochos"
"Antipapas"
"Anzas"
"Apodalas"
"Apokapes"
"Apokaukos"
"Apolethes"
"Arbintenos"
"Ardabinos"
"Areobindenos"
"Areobindos"
"Argyropolos"
"Argyros"
"Arianites"
"Aristenos"
"Arotras"
"Artabasdos"
"Artoukomites"
"Arvantenos"
"Arventenos"
"Atouemes"
"Atoumes"
"Attaleiates"
"Aulenos"
"Aulepates"
"Axinites"
"Axiomatikos"
"Balantes"
"Barbaros"
"Bardales"
"Barenos"
"and Nikopolis"
"Barsakes"
"Barys"
"Belissariotes"
"Bempetziotes"
"Beriboes"
"Beriotes"
"Blachernites"
"Blangas"
"Boïlas"
"Botaneiates"
"Bouches"
"Boutzares"
"Bourtzes"
"Bouzenos"
"Brachamios"
"Bringas"
"Bryennios"
"Chaldos"
"Chalkites"
"Chalkoutzes"
"Chamaretos"
"Charsianites"
"Chasanes"
"Chazanes"
"Chionides"
"Choirosphaktes"
"Chomatenos"
"Chordolibas"
"Choriates"
"Choumnos"
"Chrouselios"
"Chrousos"
"Chrysanthos"
"Chryselios"
"Chrysobalantites"
"Chrysoberges"
"Chytes"
"Daimones"
"Dalassenos"
"Dekanos"
"Dermokaïtes"
"Diabatenos"
"Dikaios"
"Diogenes"
"Domestikopouolos"
"Doukitzes"
"Doxapatres"
"Drakontopoulos"
"Drosinos"
"Drosos"
"Droulenos"
"Elegmites"
"Elesbaam"
"Enochos"
"Epanokomites"
"Ergodotes"
"Erotikos"
"Eugenianos"
"Eugenios"
"Eulogios"
"Exotrochos"
"Gabalas"
"Gabras"
"Galaton"
"Gelotes"
"Gerardos"
"Gidos"
"Glabas"
"Glykys"
"Goudeles"
"Gourzoubathenos"
"Granatos"
"Gribas"
"Grispos"
"Gymnos"
"Hagiochrisophorites"
"Hagioprokopites"
"Hagiotheodorites"
"Hagiozacharites"
"Hamartolos"
"Haplorabdes"
"Haploucheir"
"Hexakionites"
"Hexaklinites"
"Hexamilites"
"Hierakes"
"Hikanatos"
"Iasites"
"Iberopoulos"
"Isakiotes"
"Italikos"
"Kaballarios"
"Kabasilas"
"Kaisar"
"Kalamanos"
"Kalamaras"
"Kalampakes"
"Kallierges"
"Kalognomos"
"Kalomalas"
"Kaloudes"
"Kamateros"
"Kampanarios"
"Kamytzes"
"Kantakouzenos"
"Karabitenos"
"Karabitziotes"
"Karamallos"
"Karandenos "
"Karantes"
"Kardamopoulos"
"Karenos"
"Karianites"
"Karaïonatan"
"Karkaronymos"
"Karmalikes"
"Karouzeiates"
"Kaspax"
"Kastamonites"
"Katakalon"
"Katakalos"
"Kataphloros"
"Katas"
"Katharos"
"Katotikos"
"Katzamoundes"
"Kegenes"
"Kekaleimenos"
"Kemineianos"
"Kenchres"
"Kentenares"
"Kephalas"
"Keroularios"
"Kibyrraiotes"
"Kinnamos"
"Kokkinos"
"Komnenos"
"Kontostephanos"
"Konops"
"Kopsenos"
"Kostomyres"
"Kotertzes"
"Kouloukes"
"Kouneres"
"Kourkouas"
"Krateros"
"Krinites"
"Kritharas"
"Kritopolos"
"Kyminianos"
"Kynochorites"
"Kyriotes"
"Kyritzes"
"Labouzenos"
"Laktentitzes"
"Lalakon"
"Lampsiotes"
"Lapardas"
"Laskaris"
"Leichoudes"
"Lependrenos"
"Leukedonites"
"Libadares"
"Libadas"
"Libellisios"
"Limas"
"Liparites"
"Lithokastrites"
"Logariastes"
"Loukites"
"Loules"
"Louloukes"
"Lykaon"
"Machetarios"
"Madarites"
"Madytenos"
"Makrembolites"
"Makropoderes"
"Maleïnos"
"Maleses"
"Mamalos"
"Manganes"
"Manouelites"
"Marachas"
"Marapas"
"Marchapsabos"
"Marianites"
"Marzapoulos"
"Matzaris"
"Matzas"
"Matzoukes"
"Maurokatakalos"
"Mauros"
"Maurozomes"
"Mechos"
"Megalommates"
"Melias"
"Melissenos"
"Mermentoulos"
"Mesarites"
"Mesopotamites"
"Metochites"
"Metropoulos"
"Mitylenaios"
"Monachites"
"Monomachatos"
"Monomachos"
"Monokarites"
"Moroiannes"
"Mosaraph"
"Moschianos"
"Moschos"
"Mosele"
"Moungos"
"Mourmoures"
"Moustakes"
"Mouzakes"
"Mozaes"
"Myralides"
"Myrelaetes"
"Myron"
"Nabatenos"
"Narbiotes"
"Narsites"
"Neophytos"
"Neustongios"
"Nikerites"
"Nikoulitzes"
"Oinaiotes"
"Olaskos"
"Olyntenos"
"Opos"
"Pagomenos"
"Pakourianos"
"Paktiares"
"Palaiologos"
"Palaiotes"
"Palatinos"
"Pamphilos"
"Panaretos"
"Pankalos"
"Panokomites"
"Pantechnes"
"Parsakoutenos"
"Parthenios"
"Paxenos"
"Pediasimos"
"Peganites"
"Pegonites"
"Pekoules"
"Pelamedes"
"Pentarkles"
"Pepagomenos"
"Pepanos"
"Perenos"
"Peribleptenos"
"Phalkon"
"Phialites"
"Philanthropenos"
"Philaretos"
"Philinos"
"Philokales"
"Phrangopolos"
"Pistophilos"
"Pleures"
"Pleuses"
"Politopolos"
"Pothos"
"Probatas"
"Promountenos"
"Proteuon"
"Ptochos"
"Radenos"
"Radomiros"
"Rentakenos"
"Rizenos"
"Rodios"
"Rogerios"
"Romaios"
"Rousopoulos"
"Sagopoulos"
"Sarakenopoulos"
"Sarantenos"
"Saronites"
"Sauloioannes"
"Semnos"
"Serblias"
"Sgouros"
"Sikoundenos"
"Sinopites"
"Skandales"
"Skaranos"
"Skeblenos"
"Skleropoulos"
"Skleros"
"Skoutariotes"
"Skribas"
"Smyrnaios"
"Solomon"
"Sortes"
"Soumenos"
"Spanogregores"
"Spanopoulos"
"Spartenos"
"Spondyles"
"Stachytzes"
"Stemnitziotes"
"Strategopoulos"
"Strephnes"
"Stypeiotes"
"Stypes"
"Synacheris"
"Synadenos"
"Syropoulos"
"Syros"
"Tarchaneiotes"
"Taronites"
"Tatikes"
"Tetragonites"
"Theodorokanos"
"Theodosiopolites"
"Thrakesios"
"Thylakas"
"Tilapos"
"Timonites"
"Tornikes"
"Tourmarchopoulos"
"Traphines"
"Trellos"
"Triakontaphyllos"
"Triblattites"
"Trichinopodes"
"Triphyllios"
"Tzanzes"
"Tzetas"
"Tzipoureles"
"Tzirithon"
"Tzoulas"
"Tzoumenes"
"Tzouroulles"
"Tzympenos"
"Vatatzes"
"Xanthos"
"Xenos"
"Xeros"
"Xiphias"
"Xiphilinos"
"Xylinites"
"Zabareiotes"
"Zagarommates"
"Zerbos"
"Zomes"
"Zonaras"

http://www.maridonna.com/onomastics/lay.htm
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/byzantine/masc_given_names.html

hese 2 gives a more wide panel of names (adds 14th and 15th c. to the seal list)

forenames still no royal ordering but wider usage, spelling according to webpages lists.


"Ioannes"
"Ioannes"
"Ioannes"
"Michael"
"Michael"
"Konstantinos"
"Konstantinos"
"Leon"
"Basileios"
"Theodoros"
"Niketas"
"Nikolaos"
"Ioannes"
"Ioannes"
"Ioannes"
"Mikhael"
"Mikhael"
"Konstantinos"
"Konstantinos"
"Leon"
"Basileios"
"Theodoros"
"Niketas"
"Nikolaos"
"Adrianos"
"Alexios"
"Andronikos"
"Bardas"
"Christophoros"
"Anastasios"
"Demetrios"
"Epiphanios"
"Eustathios"
"Eustratios"
"Euthymios"
"Georgios"
"Georgios"
"Gregorios"
"Manouel"
"Nikephoros"
"Paulos"
"Petros"
"Romanos"
"Stephanos"
"Symeon"
"Theodosios"
"Theophanes"
"Theophylaktos"
"Andreas"
"Philippos"
"Xenos"
"Sergios"
"Leontios"
"Kosmas"
"Alexandros"

Sounds better to me )

Also tested the 400 surnames list ingame and no problem at all atm
.

[Rosacrux redux]

Now, spelling those names in the true medieval Greek fashion would be quite an undertaking of itself, huh?

Just a rule of thumb: Most "B"s in the beginning of a name (and many others) are actually pronounced "V", most "u"s when after an "e" are pronounced as "ph" and most "D"'s in the beginning of the words are pronounced "Th" (as in "the").

Some examples:
- Basileus: Vasilephs
- Basileios: Vasileios
- Doukas: Thoukas
etc. etc.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Thanks again. :bow: This bit I actually know. ~;) Two (γ)s make an ng, (π) following (μ) is pronounced b, right?

The problem is, how should we transcribe them? Academy seems to stick to the ancient pronounciation rather than the Koine. (η) is still transcribed as e (smetimes é or ê) and so on.
.

[Rosacrux redux]

Mouzaphere, do you live in Greece? You have a great interest in our language (and it's evolution over the ages) and I find that great.

Also, I take it you accept the erasmian pronounciation, yes? Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin... the Koene (the medieval Greek dialect evolved directly from Koene and was quite close related anyway) was spoken in a non-erasmian manner, and Koene has evolved in the early 3rd century BC directly from Attic - why would've Attic be spoken differently?

The transcription problem exists anyway, as it's a different alphabet anyway. I usually prefer a phonetic approach, but many'o'times I stick with the official (latinized) writing, in order to make sense to non-Greek audiences.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks. I'm living right across the pond. ~:)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Erasmian pronounciation all that "Alexius" instead of "Aleksios" stuff? I'm not in favour of it, no. In earlier times, languages adopted others into their own structure; the Latins and later humanists would spell anything in Latin, Arabs according to Arabic phonetics and so on. I'm sure Dâriûsh would be quite surprised if he heard how classical Farsi was pronounced in Turkish.

I'm just trying to stick to a more or less common academic format for sake of intelligibility. Being able to transcribe every language into others phonetically would be fine. (Actually it's quite possible using IPA and similar systems.) But for increasing readability, compromises are made. Arabic alphabet, for instance, is also too 'roundishly' transcribed into English/Western languages. Faisal would detest to this.

Having said that, there are no certain academic conventions without exceptions. Back to Greek, the Western academia transcribes "χ" as "chi" but here in Turkey "khi" is used. Same is valid for "ξ", which is notated as "x" or "ks".

:bow:
.

[Meneldil]

Thanks to both of you for your useful explanation and for the name list :bow:

[Byzantine Prince]

Mouzaphere, do you live in Greece? You have a great interest in our language (and it's evolution over the ages) and I find that great.
Mouz lives in Istambul and even though he's turkish I like him. ~;p


Also, I take it you accept the erasmian pronounciation, yes? Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin...
Don't go there. You are going to get warned once the Wizard shows up and starts talking about his school. ~:rolleyes:

[L'Impresario]

Well as this thread has served its purpose, maybe it's allowed to stray a bit heh.

The erasmian pronounciation has to do with the sounds of dipthongs and many other letters (eg. β pronounced as b, υ pronounced as modern ου, before being modified into ϋ and then settling into today’s ι) in the attic dialect.


Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin
Actually they spoke Greek, just in a quite ancient way heh
As Greeks are being schooled for so many years in ancient greek by using the modern pronounciation –which is the best way not only to acquire easier a good knowledge of the ancient language but also to facilitate foreigners in learning the modern one-, it is only natural that they would believe they know the best. But at an academical level this won’t suffice. I’ll be using some references later on drawn from a 72-page school manual distributed in the last junior high school equivalent class, written by D. E. Tombaidis (Δ. Ε. Τομπαίδης) and published by the ΟΕΔΒ (known to all greek students heh), just to show that there is official greek material which are following the international view on the matter of pronounciation, but it isn’t taught at all.
Also people tend to say that it “sounds bad” if the ancient texts are read the erasmian way. I don’t think we can be the judges of that heh. That is not to say that the erasmian pronounciation is accurate; there are more recent works that have analysed in great depth the pronounciation issue. Ofcourse a 100% reproduction of those sounds seems rather unachievable nowdays, as there are always great problems regarding the tonical system that the ancient Greeks used, and the pitch accents, as this was what comprised the tonical system until the early hellenistic period -already some of its elements were compromised- and not the higher volume placed on a syllable.
Even among the dialects of the 7th and 6th century significant differences existed. Through centuries of interaction many changes -phonetic,morphological,syntactical etc- took place, and as it is well known, the koine speakers’ inability to use the attic dialect (they came from a vast number of places anyway) led to the amalgamation of the “i”s, among many other things.
A very simple argument regarding how the pronounciation should have been, is revolving around that, ancient greeks using a phonetic orthography, in contrast to our modern historical one.
On the subject of transliteration, I don’t find for example “e” a bad substitute for “η”. Here’s an excerpt from an 6th century attic inscription I just copied from the above-mentioned manual: «ΣΕΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ ΚΟΡΕ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ…», reading «ΣΗΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ΄ΚΟΡΗ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ».

https://img279.imageshack.us/img279/2350/atticinscription6cbc9rj.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Hope I ain't opening any Pandora's box here ;)

[Seleukos]

I dont think thats the right thread for discussing the right pronounciation of the ancient.
But i ll mention my opinion:
First of all noone really knows 100% the exact way that ancient Greeks spoke.
Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.

As for the subject of the thread refers to medieval greek,but unfortunately most of the names of people as well as units are written with erasmian.
(i remember in MTW: Pronoiai Allagion-the byz.pronounced it pronie ! )

[L'Impresario]

Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.
Yes I concure, but the orthography on the Pronoiai and other units is supposed to match the historical one, even in latin characters. We still write it that way and pronounce it the way the original pronoiarii (note the graeco-latin liberty here heh) did. The erasmian and the other pronounciation don't refer to medieval Greek anyway.

[Rosacrux redux]

Yes, Erasmian is about Attic and pre... I have dismissed Erasmian long ago due to obvious reasons: Greek isn't a "dead language" as Latin, it has evolved over the centuries (Attic->Koene->Medieval-> and from here to several branches of Demodes-kathomiloumeni and the despicable anachronism the Katharevousa was, to todays Dimotiki). It makes only sense to take the most logical approach to the problem - since we don't know how ancient Greeks talked, what do we know?

We do know that even Koene was pronounced more or less like modern Greek, correct? So, why would the Greeks change so much during only a few generations (from the fading of the Attic to the domination of Koene)?

I think Erasmian is based on the wrong premise that there has to be a "pure" way of speaking Greek and that the ancient Greeks, before they mingled with others, are the only ones possesing that way. Also, it was meant to provide with the not accustomed to Greek westeners with an easier way to speak Greek.
It's a rather racist approach to a linguistic issue, prejudiced and bogus if I might say.

Ah, Mouzaphere, nice to meet you neighbour!

[edyzmedieval]

I am finally learning Greek. ~D

Useful for a Byzantium mod leader.... ~:cheers:

[L'Impresario]

I think Erasmian is based on the wrong premise that there has to be a "pure" way of speaking Greek and that the ancient Greeks, before they mingled with others, are the only ones possesing that way. Also, it was meant to provide with the not accustomed to Greek westeners with an easier way to speak Greek.
It's a rather racist approach to a linguistic issue, prejudiced and bogus if I might say

Well I'm sure many from the opposite side could say something similar heh
Nevertheless one cannot brand all academic efforts that don't point towards a modern greek pronounciation of the classical languages as "erasmian". AFAIK Allen's "Vox Graeca" also doesn't offer a definitive 100% answer to all such issues. But it is undeniable that there has been quite a research on this matter, professors didn't wake up one day with such ideas and decided to impose them on all others;)
And there is evidence with which one can work, such as loans and mutual words with other languages, the grammar manuals found in Alexandria etc.
Also it took centuries for the changes to occur, and regional dissimilarities were more than evident. For example we have around 5 centuries in order for "ο" and "ω" to start acquiring the same sound and duration.
It doesn't defy logic that when one looks at all those ει,οι,ι,η,υ etc, he might start thinking that there must be a reason for such a diversity in orthography. I don't offer this ofcourse as a way of how classicists and linguists work lol
At an even simpler level, it took me also many years to understand why my grandmother of pontic descent often pronounced some endings like "-ης/η" as "-ες/ε" heh

edyzmedieval,
yes that's very nice, if you need any help at all (though I 'm not specialised in humanistic studies), I 'm sure many of the greek speakers here will be willing to help (plus I m quite interested myself in romanian, not to mention some dozen of other languages ;)).

[Byzantine Prince]

It's a rather racist approach to a linguistic issue, prejudiced and bogus if I might say.
Finally somebody understands why I feel incredibly annoyed when this Erasmian stuff get's mentioned.


It doesn't defy logic that when one looks at all those ει,οι,ι,η,υ etc, he might start thinking that there must be a reason for such a diversity in orthography. I don't offer this ofcourse as a way of how classicists and linguists work lol
At an even simpler level, it took me also many years to understand why my grandmother of pontic descent often pronounced some endings like "-ης/η" as "-ες/ε" heh
The reasons for that variety in orthography was simply because greek had very subtle nuances. But they were certainly not as heavy and bland as the latin as is suggested by the erasmian school. That is just erroneous.

[L'Impresario]

The reasons for that variety in orthography was simply because greek had very subtle nuances. But they were certainly not as heavy and bland as the latin as is suggested by the erasmian school. That is just erroneous.

If I asked for any bibliography I'd be making a fool out of myself eh;)