Pictures from Iran

[Radier]

An 8-year old boy was caught stealing bread. The results of the Shariah laws:

http://bareknucklepolitics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126#126

Why did he steal that piece of bread? Was he bored? No he was hungry! For gods sake, how can people be so cruel? Religion of piece!? It´s a freakin boy! ~:mecry:

[Dâriûsh]

The link doesn’t work.

Is it one of the public hangings? Or did they cut off his hand?

They aren’t allowed to kill children under the age of 18 (at least officially). But some teenage ‘criminals’ are kept in juvenile prison until they’re old enough to be killed by the mullahs. Though sometimes the prosecutors just claim they’re 18.


FREE IRAN.

[Lazul]

yepp link doesnt work... but I know allready i will be angry once i read about it.

[Ice]

An 8-year old boy was caught stealing bread. The results of the Shariah laws:

http://bareknuc...c.php?p=126#126

Why did he steal that piece of bread? Was he bored? No he was hungry! For gods sake, how can people be so cruel? Religion of piece!? It´s a freakin boy! ~:mecry:


Theocracy= Worst then death

[Devastatin Dave]

Religion of Peace....
When a woman can be stoned for being raped, is anyone really surprised by this story? I guess it would be against the "political correct" doctorine that has been force fed to us by liberals.

[Devastatin Dave]

Here is the link...

warning, its very graphic do not click on it if you are easily offended by disturbing images. Mods please remove if there are any complaints
http://bareknucklepolitics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126#126

Terrible.

[Dutch_guy]

That's horrible, I don't understand why they do such a thing, well stealing obviously, but for a piece of bread ? ~:confused:

:balloon2:

[Devastatin Dave]

Well, if you read on the blog there is someone that translated the article and he says that its actually a street act by street performers. Thats why the kids arm is placed on a soft matt. Whether this is true, i don't know. If it is then I apologize for my anti-Islamic rant. But I cannot see how this would not snap this little childs arm?

[GoreBag]

But I cannot see how this would not snap this little childs arm?

The power of Islam?

[Tribesman]

Interesting link , so apparently it may be street entertainment not judicial punishment ~:confused:
Anyhow if he was thieving then cut his hand off , its the Christain thing to do , If thy hand offend thee cut it off .
Damn modern Christians are just too wussy politically correct liberals nowadays .
Death to the unbelievers .

[yesdachi]

...actually a street act by street performers...
Sheese whatever happened to mimes, jugglers and fire eaters?~;)

[Adrian II]

Interesting link , so apparently it may be street entertainment not judicial punishment ~:confused:
Anyhow if he was thieving then cut his hand off , its the Christain thing to do , If thy hand offend thee cut it off .
Damn modern Christians are just too wussy politically correct liberals nowadays .
Death to the unbelievers .EEEEW! LOL! Spoken like a true leprechaun, Mr President. https://img369.imageshack.us/img369/7972/dancingleprechaungif3gy.gif

[Adrian II]

Religion of Peace....
When a woman can be stoned for being raped, is anyone really surprised by this story? I guess it would be against the "political correct" doctorine that has been force fed to us by liberals.I have two words for you. Abu Ghraib.

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3414/abugdeadiraqi8dt.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugdeadiraqi8dt.jpg) https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/574/abugnewtorture6qt.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugnewtorture6qt.jpg) https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9334/abugtorture21bh.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugtorture21bh.jpg)

[Dâriûsh]

Only a few people are accountable for those despicable acts.


Likewise, not all Muslims are accountable for the acts murderers carry out in the name of Islam.

[Adrian II]

Only a few people are accountable for those despicable acts. Likewise, not all Muslims are accountable for the acts murderers carry out in the name of Islam.Those few people are part of a chain of command that condones and organises torture. Anyway, I wish our friend would see the light with regard to religion, Dâriûsh. Maybe this is news to him, but we could give it a try.

https://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6257/arrownew0qd.gifMaybe abuse is not tied to any specific religion.

[Kanamori]

I'm not entirely sure that would break his arm, maybe if he was malnourished, because there is the blanket which would be able to absorb a lot of the downward force that car is making. Regardless, it would be very painful and anybody to do that is uncaring or just stupid.

[Devastatin Dave]

I have two words for you. Abu Ghraib.

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3414/abugdeadiraqi8dt.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugdeadiraqi8dt.jpg) https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/574/abugnewtorture6qt.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugnewtorture6qt.jpg) https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9334/abugtorture21bh.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abugtorture21bh.jpg)
You are comparing the stoning of women who are raped to butt pyramids. Yes, liberalism is a mental disease...:bow:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And we shouldn't attack Iran?

BTW Adrian, did you look at the pics? Did Abu Gharib have such brutal punishments, or just a bunch of guys naked on top of each other (which, I'm sure, at least 1 of them liked,). some electric shocks. NOT PERMINANT DISFIGURING!

Time to clear out Gitmo the old fashioned way, methinks.

[Tribesman]

And we shouldn't attack Iran?

~D ~D ~D ~D You cannot attack Iran , your military knows it , your government knows it and the Iranians know it .

[LeftEyeNine]

Turkey is the land of 70 million people of which % 95 Muslim population exist...

Islam is the religion of peace, and so are the others.. Allah has nothing to prove over your wretched prejudice and ignorance..

For those who take psychological abuse for light and think that you have to break one's arm in order to hurt : ~:joker:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And we shouldn't attack Iran?

~D ~D ~D ~D You cannot attack Iran , your military knows it , your government knows it and the Iranians know it .
We can, but it'd have to be a total war. ~:)

[Strike For The South]

God damn men on power trips is all this is. These old men are bitter and old so they get chubbys off of breakng little kids arms. May they rot in hell~:handball:

[Devastatin Dave]

Again, someone translated it in the blog and said that it was a street performance. The boys hand is still clinched, I would figure that after that sort of damage (arm being completely crushed) his hand would open up since the tendons would be destroyed.

[solypsist]

i saw this at another forum and it was hotly debated whether the arm was actually broken or just severly bruised. it all depends on whether you think teh towel cushioned the arm for protection or acted as a wedge providing for a clean break.

[SomeNick]

They offered my Mother a lot of money to be a Matron in Iran of a hospital and she didn't go due to the laws, and my brother and I were young then too.

Glad she didn't...

All in all this thread definitely points to the more pathetic of humanity, both sides of the oceans. And as for Islam being a religion of peace, well the fella who founded it was quite the warlord...

Edit: upon reflection I have removed this. Above says it all anyway.

Anyway, back to happy face!~:handball:

[LeftEyeNine]

And as for Islam being a religion of peace, well the fella who founded it was quite the warlord...

You expected him to be a hippi then ? With long blonde hair and flower-pattern tight dresses ?

Struggle was destined for the survival and spreading of Islam. You can not take the whole thing along your very narrow point of view without reading the Kuran teaching the peace.

Strange to say that "you should not fight if you want peace".. Funny indeed.. What about USA then ? Are you in favor of that or opposing it ?

This has nothing to do with you though, if you are not flexible with your ideas and locked 'n loaded with 9/11, Moslems=Terrorists stuff.. Go live with it (and take up a good history book to find out what did happen for what reason)..

[Soulforged]

Religion of peace!?
All religions claim to be religion of peace, at least in the final centuries. This is just the result of fear to mantain order or the irrationality of zealous moralists. At any rate, nothing good. This could happen in any country, and death penalty is still allowed in some countries. What's the difference? Of course there's a gradual diffence, or that might seem to anyone. But modern society has forgotten that all human are falible, and then they justify punishment with revenge. The result is the absolute control of penal system by the government, that could easily do this, having the necessary control over guarantees. That's the only thing that separates certain countries for others, guarantees, let's hope that those guarantees don't fall...

[Spetulhu]

Religion of Peace....
When a woman can be stoned for being raped, is anyone really surprised by this story? I guess it would be against the "political correct" doctorine that has been force fed to us by liberals.

And? The bible certainly deals out the same sort of punishments, it's just we're sensible enough to disregard it by now. Or perhaps the west has become liberal since those days?

[PanzerJaeger]

You expected him to be a hippi then ? With long blonde hair and flower-pattern tight dresses ?

Jesus was no killer.

Thats a major difference between Islam and Christianity.

Christianity may have been corrupted at times in its history but the teachings of Christ will always be a positive foundation.

Islam was forged in violence, torture, and death and has continued in that pattern throughout its existence. Plain and simple. Thats no bash, its the written record as best as can be determined.

Christianity has had its issues, but it has also had a reformation and has continued to redefine its stance on human rights and issues of morality.

[GoreBag]

I still can't load the page, actually.

[Fragony]

Religion of peace mon derriere, when muslims talk about peace they talk about islam, islam is peace after all. In other words: convert or feel steel.

[SomeNick]

You expected him to be a hippi then ? With long blonde hair and flower-pattern tight dresses ?

Struggle was destined for the survival and spreading of Islam. You can not take the whole thing along your very narrow point of view without reading the Kuran teaching the peace.

Strange to say that "you should not fight if you want peace".. Funny indeed.. What about USA then ? Are you in favor of that or opposing it ?

This has nothing to do with you though, if you are not flexible with your ideas and locked 'n loaded with 9/11, Moslems=Terrorists stuff.. Go live with it (and take up a good history book to find out what did happen for what reason)..


Oh...I've read about the historical ramifications and foundings of that particular religion.

And, no, I don't agree with or believe 'all' the muslim=terrorist junk.

Different times different cultures. Sometimes one has to ascertain the viablility of old practices and their place in modern culture.

Those that impose them as truth upon others, and the only truth, even when so blindingly obvious of it's danger, do it for personal gain I think you will find.


And that's all I'm saying in this thread.

[Major Robert Dump]

Should have stayed with a low carb diet

[bmolsson]

So if I get it correctly. A car run over a boys arm and its all because Islam is an awful religion. Interesting logic.......

[Radier]

If it some sort of streatperformence I apologize. I didn´t know that.


I still can't load the page, actually.

It should work...

----------------------------------


Turkey is the land of 70 million people of which % 95 Muslim population exist...

Islam is the religion of peace, and so are the others.. Allah has nothing to prove over your wretched prejudice and ignorance..

Yeah you seems to be very civiliced and peaceful over there... 35 000 turks converted to christanity last year and thay were not treated good at all IIRC. What do the Qur'an tell us what to do with those who convert from Islam now again?

[bmolsson]

What do the Qur'an tell us what to do with those who convert from Islam now again?


They are not allowed to get on the flight to Mecca ?? ~;p

[Radier]

They are not allowed to get on the flight to Mecca ?? ~;p

If it only was that good. ~:)

Didn´t you in Indonesia have those beheadings of christian girls a time ago? What was the reaction in the country? (Just curious ~:handball: )

[bmolsson]

If it only was that good. ~:)

Didn´t you in Indonesia have those beheadings of christian girls a time ago? What was the reaction in the country? (Just curious ~:handball: )


The police arrested 18 members of the sect accused. During the raid against the islamic sect 3 police officers and 5 sect members where killed.

Just as a note, the local islamic authorities are demanding death penalty for all terrorists.

But of course, these are no interesting news....... ~:handball:

[Fragony]

Just as a note, the local islamic authorities are demanding death penalty for all terrorists.

But of course, these are no interesting news....... ~:handball:

Indeed, they always demand death penalty.

[doc_bean]

Turkey is the land of 70 million people of which % 95 Muslim population exist...

Islam is the religion of peace, and so are the others.. Allah has nothing to prove over your wretched prejudice and ignorance..

For those who take psychological abuse for light and think that you have to break one's arm in order to hurt : ~:joker:

I heard that in Turkey, if a woman gets raped, she has to marry the rapist. Not sure if this is better than what happens in Iran...

[Bartix]

They aren’t allowed to kill children under the age of 18 (at least officially). But some teenage ‘criminals’ are kept in juvenile prison until they’re old enough to be killed by the mullahs.
Same as USA, no?

[Brutus]

Without wanting to become involved in the Islam-discussion itself, has anyone read the forumposts on the same site?

I'm an Iranian and I've seen these pictures in a report in a local newspaper before.
It's not a 'punishment' or anything like that. If it was a punishment they wouldn't put the soft thing under the boy's arm.

According to the report, the man in the picture is making a show of the boy's abilities just to make money from the people standing there. This is their everyday activity. Very Very sorrowing.

Please be careful not to post anything that you don't have enough information about.
And don't post such things which are to make hate in the hearts of the people rather than sympathy.
I'm inclined to believe this. As other posters state: the man on the first picture is holding a microphone, the boys fist stays clenched (indicating that his arm doesn't break, and the car seems to lift from the ground riding over him. So if you have a problem with it, it should be because they are swindling the audience...

[Fragony]

I heard that in Turkey, if a woman gets raped, she has to marry the rapist. Not sure if this is better than what happens in Iran...

No shit????????????? And THAT is what the multicult wants to be part of europe? That is the sickest thing I have heard since raped women being stoned to death. Sorry Turkish orgers, but your country can never be part of us. Geez.

[Ser Clegane]

Before we jump to any conclusions about Turkish culture, I think it would be appropriate to provide a backup for such a statement.

"I heard that" seems a bit thin to base any condemnations on.

[LeftEyeNine]

PJ,

Why don't you open up a topic "I hate Islam" then ? We are forged in violence, torture and death. So that we must be opposed, I don't think The Org will prevent you from doing this ?

Why do I have to prove you something ? I don't want to sound like those communists I'm not ver fond of : "Did you ever read Koran?"

In a world where religions race - and you definitely contribute this - there will be no peace. We will be terrorists as long as we live. 'Cause it's you creating it with your red glasses.

[doc_bean]

I put in the "I heard" part for a reason, however, a quick google search gave me this :


A recent book on modern Turkey includes a commentary on sexual violence as part of an interview with the public prosecutor of a rural town:

"Ninety percent of the sex crimes are between men and women; ten percent may be men and men, but I've only heard of only one incident where a man has raped another man. The aim of our rapist is to marry, you see. There are times when people just want to satisfy their lust but more than sixty percent have the aim of marrying. Say a man took a woman, and the woman wanted it a bit, but she is too young, the man has to go to prison. That's the law: you go to prison for under-age sex.....If a man has kidnapped a woman, and then he marries her, and that is approved of by the parents, then it's OK. But if they divorce within five years then he is arrested for kidnapping. I think it's unfair. Of course, I could not say such things in court or I would be considered biased....There is, of course, wife beating, but it doesn't get reported because women tend to accept it in families of lower culture."24

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR440132004
has some nice stories too

and then:


In 2002, 546 rapists had their sentences cut by promising to marry their victims


and


Problems within the legal system are another obstacle for victims of sexual assault. Under the former Penal Code, a perpetrator could escape punishment by marrying the victim. This provision often placed high pressure on the victim to wed her rapist for the sake of family honor.


There's a lot more interesting stuff (imho) in the articles I linked. It seems like things might be improving, mostly due to pressure from the EU, but there's still a long way to go...

[Fragony]

PJ,

Why don't you open up a topic "I hate Islam" then ? We are forged in violence, torture and death. So that we must be opposed, I don't think The Org will prevent you from doing this ?

Why do I have to prove you something ? I don't want to sound like those communists I'm not ver fond of : "Did you ever read Koran?"

In a world where religions race - and you definitely contribute this - there will be no peace. We will be terrorists as long as we live. 'Cause it's you creating it with your red glasses.

So? Is it true what Docbean said?

With all respect, do you find it so hard to understand that some people are extremily wary of Islam? I have read some of the koran and didn't like what I see and I definatily don't like what it does to people. There is probably no peace because the koran seems little more then a soldiers handbook, explain the bigots among us what makes the islam so great; all I see are heads not being where they belong. If you ask me, for muslims there will only be peace when everyone has become muslim. I don't thrust you guys one bit.

[LeftEyeNine]

I heard that in Turkey, if a woman gets raped, she has to marry the rapist. Not sure if this is better than what happens in Iran...

Hearing BS and wanting to believe them is something we are already familiar with.

Did you hear the latest news doc_bean ? We're at your door to stone you since you are a Christian. A legal committee has just been prepared for you by the approval of Tayyip Erdogan. ~:joker:


Yeah you seems to be very civiliced and peaceful over there... 35 000 turks converted to christanity last year and thay were not treated good at all IIRC. What do the Qur'an tell us what to do with those who convert from Islam now again

Haha, like what.. Ah yes those we hung there in Izmir.. Yeah, every morning we go to Cumhuriyet Square where their dead bodies are hung and throw them eggs, you know..

Dear Patrons,

If you ever "hear" something about Turkey again, let's not pollute this beautfiul board. Please ask me about your very "hearings" at lefteyenine [at] yahoo dot com

Thank you.. Every message will be charged with a fee that can buy more AK-47s for our community.

[LeftEyeNine]

Originally Posted by http://www.stopvaw.org/Turkey.html
Problems within the legal system are another obstacle for victims of sexual assault. Under the former Penal Code, a perpetrator could escape punishment by marrying the victim. This provision often placed high pressure on the victim to wed her rapist for the sake of family honor.

That was an exploit in the legal code which has already been changed..

But I want to ask, what does it have to do with Islam?.. I mean Stop Violence Against Women is a human rights organization isn't it ? I can't see any one-on-one connection with women exposed to violence and Islam over there. You still think the way and relate things you'd like to see them together..

Violence against women in Turkey is debatable. Yes, there is, although waning dramatically day by day. Especially in the eastern parts, that's a common issue. You know "freedom fighters" turn back to their homes with a little bit of anger..

1- What does this violence against women issues has to do with Islam ? How do you relate according to those articles ?

2- Why would I like you being a Muslim, Fragony? It's all about your mentality and way of belief which does not bother me at all. Turkey is a 70-million-populated country where we peacefully live - where those social incidents are no more or less than any other peaceful one.

3- "Come and See" is a lot better way to know about something rather than "Hear and Accuse".

It's something like I'd be reading Das Kapital with my readily prejudice. If you read something that way - no matter who you are-, you can find so much to make fun of and oppose to.

Anyway, live your belief between yourself and God - where it actually is meant to be.

[Fragony]

Amnesty international doesn't seem to think it is bullshit Lefteyenine, and I rather believe Amnesty International then a country that still denies the mass murder of millions of christians in Armenia. What was it, an act of betrayal just bringing it up? I chose to believe it if you don't mind, given turkey's history and numerous muslim attacks all over the world I have little reason not to...

[LeftEyeNine]

Fragony

Get a history book.. Try to find my topic about Armenian Issue.. LEarn something new and unbiased..

Armenians were Armenians - not Christians. Ottoman Empire was a Muslim empire from the start. Strange that they noticed Armenians being Christians and decideed to massacre them in 1914. You believe what you want to believe..

Armenian Issue was an act of revenge. Before their relocation dictated by the Ottoman governemnt, the Tasnak Sutyan and other Armenian gangs have killed 514.000 Turks in Van, Erzurum and other surrounding places. And as soon as they were forced to move to Syria, they were murdered on their way.

You see that's a two-sided act where the firestarters are the Armenians.

One Turkish survivor of Armenian massacre against Turks start with these words : "They were good neighbors, kind people.." They were called Millet-i Sukun (Silent Nation) in general by Ottomans.

And you still come up with Armenian Genocide stuff in a topic about Shariia order (which I don't approve at all) ? What's next, you get the flu and blame us for that the curse of Armenians killed ?

[doc_bean]

Did you hear the latest news doc_bean ? We're at your door to stone you since you are a Christian. A legal committee has just been prepared for you by the approval of Tayyip Erdogan. ~:joker:

Let's face it, what I heard wasn't far from the truth, although things are changing (which i also mentioned).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Turkey joining the EU in the way that Fragony is, I just don't think the country is ready yet. And i hate it how the politicians keep rushing these things, it won't help anyone.

Turkey isn't the perfect example of enlightened Islam, there are a lot of archaic laws and customs still in place. And let's not forget that the Turkish military also has (had?) the duty to protect the country from itself, or at least from its most fundamentalist citizens.

[Fragony]

Get a history book..

I just learned where not to look for one.....

Armenian Issue was an act of revenge.

Just scratching the surface proves once again adequate. We have a long way to go my friend...

[LeftEyeNine]

doc_bean,

I'm against Turkey joining the EU. I don't like the way we have to prove out. Whatever it's the topic of another one.

Turkey is at least the best available example of already enlightened ISlam. I can never say Turkey is a country of welfare at all terms. We have a lot to do but this does give no one to draw the efforts into mud or interrupt with our internal mechanism (that was for some politicians)

Fragony

Yes, I bet you just learned that not everything Armeanians say is true.

Ok, i'm saying it was an act of revenge and blamed being primitive. Which galaxy is that are you living in where there are no wars, battles, no revenge, murders no blood ever spilled in any way ?

Then I would be called modern to admit a lie and say it was a Genocide ? I can't pick a point to start with you. Tell me you hate my sig, and the big picture is complete.

[Leet Eriksson]

Take it from me Lefteyenine. Don't bother arguing.

Can you take anyone seriously when some of them believe in these nutjobs?

http://www.reandev.com/taliban/

[Fragony]

Yes, I bet you just learned that not everything Armeanians say is true.

Ya, she told me she loved me.

Ok, i'm saying it was an act of revenge and blamed being primitive. Which galaxy is that are you living in where there are no wars, battles, no revenge, murders no blood ever spilled in any way ?

The one I am living in now, and I quite enjoy doing so. It is a shame that a certain religion doesn't really like peace and cannot wait to cut of my head because I don't believe in fairytales. Today, exactly 1 year ago one of us (van Gogh)got butchered because of the sick perverted thing that is Islam, we were doing fine untill then. Now that we know what we are dealing with, no more love.

Then I would be called modern to admit a lie and say it was a Genocide ? I can't pick a point to start with you. Tell me you hate my sig, and the big picture is complete.

I don't hate you, if you were ever to visit the Netherlands I wouldn't hesitate to invite you into my house. But that is the thing we small men can do, we don't have to deal with the bigger picture. Look at the bright side, most (and most means a lot) wouldn't take the time to have this conversation. I am not trying to not hurt your feelings, that is what hypocrites do.

[Leet Eriksson]

Hey lets blame islam becuase a muslim killed a dutch guy who called us all goat****ers.

Sorry for your loss fragony, Pim Fortuyn wasn't killed by a muslim btw.

EDIT: oh sorry i forgot the boards rules.

[Ser Clegane]

It is a shame that a certain religion doesn't really like peace and cannot wait to cut of my head because I don't believe in fairytales.

Funny ... when I spent a week in Dubai in September, the people there seemed quite peaceful and nobody attempted to cut off my head.

Perhaps it is that some people abuse Islam (or religion in general) instead of the other way around.

The broad brush some people here are using is exactly the same one that the extremists who claim to represent the Muslim world are using when they demonize the West.

Good job.

[LeftEyeNine]

because of the sick perverted thing that is Islam

This is insult...Reported..


don't hate you, if you were ever to visit the Netherlands I wouldn't hesitate to invite you into my house.

This is wisemouth talk. You call my belief sick and perverted but do not hesitate inviting me into your house ? What if I behead you in the middle of the night? You know my belief is sick and perverted and so am I.


But that is the thing we small men can do, we don't have to deal with the bigger picture. Look at the bright side, most (and most means a lot) wouldn't take the time to have this conversation.

You should have stopped having a conversation with me, conceited Dutch. Everytime you claimed something, you were turned down. That must be hard to accept.


I am not trying to not hurt your feelings, that is what hypocrites do.

Be yourself.. You call me sick and perverted but you do not hurt me at all ? "I hate you but in order to get on top, I welcome you" is an old forum trick. I'm sick and perverted but wise enough to figure out what you are doing. And I'm honest enough to say that if this is EU mentality in general, I hate Europeans. Got it ?

[Redleg]

So? Is it true what Docbean said?

With all respect, do you find it so hard to understand that some people are extremily wary of Islam? I have read some of the koran and didn't like what I see and I definatily don't like what it does to people.

You might want to stay away from several chapters in the Old Testiment then. There are some things in the Old Testiment that makes Islam seem peaceful.

But then that is why most Christians focus on the New Testiment - with only certain verus being used from the Old Testiment to support the sermon of the week.



There is probably no peace because the koran seems little more then a soldiers handbook, explain the bigots among us what makes the islam so great; all I see are heads not being where they belong. If you ask me, for muslims there will only be peace when everyone has become muslim. I don't thrust you guys one bit.

And given that statement - I guess you don't trust Christians all that much either?

Now I am playing an advocate here for a reason - Islam has its problems because of people - Christianity had a lot of the same problems many many years ago and several things have changed the religion to a more loving and peaceful religion in the context of the orginial message of Jesus Christ. However if you take a took at the more extreme sects of Christianity - some of them are no better then the extremists in the Muslem faith. The difference is that in Christian Faith those extremists are marginialized by the governments and other Christian. In many of the major Muslim countries the government uses the extremists to control the population because of their own desires and tryanny. (SP)

The Religion of Islam is still finding its way out of the trap of fundmental extremism it would seem to me.

Oh and I have read both the Bible and the Koran - and while I have problems with certain passages in the Koran - I have the same problem with certain Books and Chapters in the Old Testiment.

[Radier]

Quite OT, but here are some fresh news from Algeria.

An Algerian court has sent four men to jail for eating lunch in a restaurant during the holy month of Ramadan.

During this period, practising Muslims are meant to observe a fast between the hours of dawn and dusk.

The three offenders were picked up in the town of Bejaia, some 260km east of Algiers and were found guilty of conspicuous contempt of religion.

The restaurant manager was given six months in prison. The others were sentenced to three months each.

And swedish politicians want these countries in to EU... ~:handball:

[Fragony]

Hey lets blame islam becuase a muslim killed a dutch guy who called us all goat****ers.

That isn't why he is dead, he was murdered because he ' offended' the prophet.Pick up your book and tell me what it says about offending the prophet, it ain't very nice as van Gogh can no longer tell, cool and all, but not here. You have no idea what that murder meant for us as a society, I used to be pretty easy with this kind of stuff but no more. And it was not a single muslim, it was the entire muslim community that is still nowhere to be found unless it is government santaclausday.

[Ser Clegane]

And swedish politicians want these countries in to EU... ~:handball:

Swedish politicians want Algeria in the EU? ~:confused:

EDIT to add:

I expect that the sweeping religion-bashing stops here and now :stop:

If you want to discuss certain aspects of various religions, please feel free to do so.

Statements like this "religion is perverted, sick, evil" or this "religion's followers are Nazis", etc are considered to be violations of the forum rules and will be treated as such.

If it turns out to be impossible to discuss certain topics in a civilized way, this thread will be closed

Thanks for your attention

[LeftEyeNine]

Quite OT, but here are some fresh news from Algeria.

An Algerian court has sent four men to jail for eating lunch in a restaurant during the holy month of Ramadan.

During this period, practising Muslims are meant to observe a fast between the hours of dawn and dusk.

The three offenders were picked up in the town of Bejaia, some 260km east of Algiers and were found guilty of conspicuous contempt of religion.

The restaurant manager was given six months in prison. The others were sentenced to three months each.

And swedish politicians want these countries in to EU... ~:handball:

This is truly odd.. Nothing ever happened here in Turkey druing Ramadan.. The park next to my house is even full of alcoholic students that fill there up in the night..

[Radier]

Swedish politicians want Algeria in the EU? ~:confused:

People from the liberal party Folkpartiet (which ususal is a good party) said before that EU does not know any borders, and countries in Northern Africa should join in the near future. I think the left alliance agreed...

[Radier]

This is truly odd.. Nothing ever happened here in Turkey druing Ramadan.. The park next to my house is even full of alcoholic students that fill there up in the night..

Yeah Turkey seems to be the most liberal of all muslim countries. I have heard that a majority in Turkey does not want to become a part of the European Union. I sthat true?

[Leet Eriksson]

Funny ... when I spent a week in Dubai in September, the people there seemed quite peaceful and nobody attempted to cut off my head.

Perhaps it is that some people abuse Islam (or religion in general) instead of the other way around.

The broad brush some people here are using is exactly the same one that the extremists who claim to represent the Muslim world are using when they demonize the West.

Good job.

Unfortunate for you westerner infidel, if you were in Abu Dhabi i would have personally cut off your head arrrrrrrrr where is my tabar :viking:

[Ser Clegane]

People from the liberal party Folkpartiet (which ususal is a good party) said before that EU does not know any borders, and countries in Northern Africa should join in the near future. I think the left alliance agreed...

Now that seems a bit silly indeed. One might one day consider them to be affiliated if they meet the expected requirements - but thinking that this might happen in the "near future" certainly shows some disconnect from reality...

[LeftEyeNine]

Radier

Recent demands of the EU drove things a bit the reverse way.

Attempting to put Armenian Issue being accepted as a Genocide as a pre-term for acceptance, the offical acceptance of Cyprus are the headline matters..

I was always aware that these things would be put in front before anything else as soon as possible. However I'm quite surprised - therefore angry - at the Turkish government not being prepared for any single one of these issues.

I'm expecting a Kurdish Issue re-heated soon.

[Dutch_guy]

The one I am living in now, and I quite enjoy doing so. It is a shame that a certain religion doesn't really like peace and cannot wait to cut of my head because I don't believe in fairytales. Today, exactly 1 year ago one of us (van Gogh)got butchered because of the sick perverted thing that is Islam, we were doing fine untill then. Now that we know what we are dealing with, no more love.

van Gogh was murdered by one fundamentalist, just one, van Gogh wasn't murdered by the Islam - just by one nut job , who happened to support the Islam.

He didn't help the relations between muslims and non-muslims in this country - but to say they have gotten worse would be untrue imo.

And to say we don't treat the Islam with love anymore is also wrong, sure maybe some might think that way since the murder a year ago.
But most dutchmen don't hate the Islam more than they did already, though the situation hasn't been inproved either, which is a shame...


:balloon2:

[Fragony]

Now that seems a bit silly indeed. One might one day consider them to be affiliated if they meet the expected requirements - but thinking that this might happen in the "near future" certainly shows some disconnect from reality...

Depends on how you look at the leftists masterplan (left???? In sweden ~;)). If one is interested in social experiments go study psycholigie but stay out of politics for crying out loud. They have done enough damage, Algeria as well??? How long has it been since FISF or whatever slaughtered all the french that were still unwise enough to expect tollerance? And isn't the current ruler an ex member? These lefties are insane....

[Leet Eriksson]

Quite OT, but here are some fresh news from Algeria.

An Algerian court has sent four men to jail for eating lunch in a restaurant during the holy month of Ramadan.

During this period, practising Muslims are meant to observe a fast between the hours of dawn and dusk.

The three offenders were picked up in the town of Bejaia, some 260km east of Algiers and were found guilty of conspicuous contempt of religion.

The restaurant manager was given six months in prison. The others were sentenced to three months each.

And swedish politicians want these countries in to EU... ~:handball:

Its the countries law, most arab countries restuarants are closed during daylight in ramadan, you can eat in your own home if you want, unless you are not muslim there are restuarants for that.

In the UAE for example, about 10% who work here are westerners, mostly germans and americans, and they can eat publicly if they wanted, but they do try to eat privately out of respect to the locals and other muslims.

[Dâriûsh]

What a wonderful thread...

I do not deny that there are major social problems in the Islamic world, in fact, I think I have expressed my feelings on the subject a few times. I hope, and pray, for betterment and reforms. And though I am a humble man, not a scholar, nor an Imam, I do what little I can to help undo the current wrongs. One hand has no voice, but I am not alone.

And by the way, I find it deeply insulting when someone commits a crime and claims it to be “in the name of Islam”, but guess what, I also get deeply insulted when someone calls my religion, my faith, sick and perverted.

And why do I even bother responding? I do because of my more than one billion brothers and sisters in faith throughout the world.

We are not all intolerant murderers.

[Devastatin Dave]

Its the countries law, most arab countries restuarants are closed during daylight in ramadan, you can eat in your own home if you want, unless you are not muslim there are restuarants for that.

In the UAE for example, about 10% who work here are westerners, mostly germans and americans, and they can eat publicly if they wanted, but they do try to eat privately out of respect to the locals and other muslims.
Do the resturants reopen when the sun goes down? Muslims can eat after the sun goes down, right?

[Fragony]

What a wonderful thread...

I do not deny that there are major social problems in the Islamic world, in fact, I think I have expressed my feelings on the subject a few times. I hope, and pray, for betterment and reforms. And though I am a humble man, not a scholar, nor an Imam, I do what little I can to help undo the current wrongs. One hand has no voice, but I am not alone.

And by the way, I find it deeply insulting when someone commits a crime and claims it to be “in the name of Islam”, but guess what, I also get deeply insulted when someone calls my religion, my faith, sick and perverted.

And why do I even bother responding? I do because of my more than one billion brothers and sisters in faith throughout the world.

We are not all intolerant murderers.

You are right. Sorry about that, I have a habit of taking it a bit far when it isn't needed. I do have my reservations, but I guess you noticed. I'll try not to be a bit more civil.

[LeftEyeNine]

Devastatin Dave

I guess it is so, 'till the next dawn you are free with your diet.

[Fragony]

edit is broken,

I said 'I'll try to be a bit more civil' .

[Fragony]

Now that seems a bit silly indeed. One might one day consider them to be affiliated if they meet the expected requirements - but thinking that this might happen in the "near future" certainly shows some disconnect from reality...

Depends on how you look at the leftists masterplan (left???? In sweden ~;)). If one is interested in social experiments go study psycholigie but stay out of politics for crying out loud. They have done enough damage, Algeria as well??? How long has it been since FISF or whatever slaughtered all the french that were still unwise enough to expect tollerance? And isn't the current ruler an ex member? These lefties are insane....

[Fragony]

geez I try an edit and a old post comes up! I love my new I-mac.

[Devastatin Dave]

Devastatin Dave

I guess it is so, 'till the next dawn you are free with your diet.

I was wondering if fasial knows whether or not the returants open at night. I would think it would be allowed. Do you practice Ramadan LeftEye? What are other things you have to obstain from during the day time during this time of year?

Back to the pictures... Judging from the face of the kid, he doesn't look like much of a willing participant, but then again, this could be for more dramatic effect for the crowd (more money in the hat). I believe that we will never know the truth...

[Leet Eriksson]

I was wondering if fasial knows whether or not the returants open at night. I would think it would be allowed. Do you practice Ramadan LeftEye? What are other things you have to obstain from during the day time during this time of year?


yes after dawn prayers, some of them open 30 minutes after dawn prayers as they themselves have to break the fast and eat.


What are other things you have to obstain from during the day time during this time of year?

Besides eating and drinking, you cannot day dream or watch porn, have sex, and all the other illegal things like smoking, stealing and whatnot, they all break fasting.

If you broke fasting during ramadan for whatever reason, you can compensate by fasting the days you didn't fast in ramadan after eid al fitr holy day.

Just fyi, its not taboo to break fasting if its life threatning, like you need medication or have a chronic disease.

[LeftEyeNine]

Do you practice Ramadan LeftEye? What are other things you have to obstain from during the day time during this time of year?

Yeah, Chatroom wanderers NeonGod, Kenshin, ColdKnight and some others very well know that..Ah I wan poutine next year for my iftar meal.. ~:)

The purpose of this one-month period is staying away from earthly tastes like food, drinks, alcohol (is actually completely forbidden) and sex; to purify yourself. It's when you test yourself how someone without money to feed himself feels like and direct you towards thinking about the ones who do not have the opportunities and welfare you have.

There is a particular aspect of worship called Zekat in Ramadan period (I guess it is the same in Arab countries though, since it is Arabic already) that dictates you to share a particular proportion of your income for charity of the poor.

It's all about which way you would like to see Islam though. I'm well trained for that lately.

[Devastatin Dave]

So if you eat something during the day, during Ramadan, you can fix that sin by fasting an extra day. Makes sense. Is there some sort of traditional meals that are eaten after sunset? Kind of like how Catholics eat fish on Fridays, that sort of thing.

[Redleg]

It's all about which way you would like to see Islam though. I'm well trained for that lately.

:bow:

[LeftEyeNine]

Is there some sort of traditional meals that are eaten after sunset? Kind of like how Catholics eat fish on Fridays, that sort of thing.

For the meal itself, I don't know if any. But when breaking your fast after the evening ezan (the sunset time) it is "good" to break it with Hurma (fruit unique to Arabian lands), water or olive.

[Devastatin Dave]

The purpose of this one-month period is staying away from earthly tastes like food, drinks, alcohol (is actually completely forbidden) and sex; to purify yourself. It's when you test yourself how someone without money to feed himself feels like and direct you towards thinking about the ones who do not have the opportunities and welfare you have.

You know, even though I'm not Muslim, I might have to try this out. It sounds like a good idea and it would probably help me with my many biases and hang-ups. When does Ramadan start? Will this be offensive to Muslims if a nonbeliever celebrates one of their customes even if they aren't part of the flock? I would think it would be like non Christians participating in Christmas, but if its something that would be considered offensive, I don't want to do it. But if its ok, could you guys let me know what i need to do or what part of the Quran i need to read in order to know what to do for Ramadan?

[Dâriûsh]

You know, even though I'm not Muslim, I might have to try this out. It sounds like a good idea and it would probably help me with my many biases and hang-ups. I can highly recommend it, and not just as an Islamic holiday. To some it takes will, but as the saying goes: the most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self. Personally, I find it an enjoyable experience. ~:)



When does Ramadan start?
This year it started on October 4th. I think it starts in September next year.



Will this be offensive to Muslims if a nonbeliever celebrates one of their customes even if they aren't part of the flock? I would think it would be like non Christians participating in Christmas, but if its something that would be considered offensive, I don't want to do it.
I cant imagine anyone would find it offensive.



But if its ok, could you guys let me know what i need to do or what part of the Quran i need to read in order to know what to do for Ramadan?
If you don’t have a Qur'an (~;) ), I think these will do just fine.

From Ramadan.co.uk (http://www.ramadan.co.uk/index1.php?page=others.htm)

Essentials of Ramadan, The Fasting Month. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_1.html)

In case you try it in 2006, Ramadan Mu´barak. ~D

[LeftEyeNine]

DD, Ramadan period is over for this year by now. Tomorrow is Ramadan Fest (and the following 2 days as well).

A Google search can let you find the exact Ramadan times. Since the Arabs used Hicri (translation ?the calendar that starts with Muhammed's migration to Medina IIRC) calendar which has 10 or 11 days less than the modern calendar we use, the date of Ramadan start comes earlier by 10-11 days every year. For example this year it had started by 3rd of October, I guess it will be around 20s of September next year.

As long as you do it on its required terms, I doubt any religion would repel anyone intending to try. You're welcome. Islam is the religion of intention ("niyet" in Turkish words), no matter how you act or speak out, but the core of your deeds is taken into consideration. :bow:

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm going to try it next year then. Now, I have to obstain from sex during this time, is this including at night? Just want to know so I can give my wife a heads up for next year (or a break if you know what I mena!!!~D )
You can drink water during the daylight right?

[Ser Clegane]

Thanks for giving this discussion a positive and informative turn, guys :bow:

[Leet Eriksson]

You know, even though I'm not Muslim, I might have to try this out. It sounds like a good idea and it would probably help me with my many biases and hang-ups. When does Ramadan start? Will this be offensive to Muslims if a nonbeliever celebrates one of their customes even if they aren't part of the flock? I would think it would be like non Christians participating in Christmas, but if its something that would be considered offensive, I don't want to do it. But if its ok, could you guys let me know what i need to do or what part of the Quran i need to read in order to know what to do for Ramadan?

Not offensive at all, some german friends of mine fast with me as well(they are catholic). ~:)

:bow:

I think lefteyenine explained it perfectly. to break fast at dawn the traditional arabic diet is date and water (or laban something like yoghurt), its preferable to have something light generally.

To Dariush and Lefteyenine, i bow to your superior knowledge :bow: I myself learned some things here ~:)

[yesdachi]

No doubt, it has made me think of when I worked with a friend (French Moroccan) as cooks at a steakhouse back in college and he practiced Ramadan. It took a lot of self-control to resist all the good food there all day until evening! Hats off to anyone that committed.:bow:

[Adrian II]

BTW Adrian, did you look at the pics? Did Abu Gharib have such brutal punishments, or just a bunch of guys naked on top of each other (which, I'm sure, at least 1 of them liked,). some electric shocks. NOT PERMINANT DISFIGURING!Prisoners were tortured to death as well. In Afghanistan too. Actually the only people who liked the Abu Ghraib torture were the American guards and interrogators. They are the ones smiling in the pictures. 'Hi Mom!' This from a people that calls itself Christian. Blegh.

[Redleg]

Prisoners were tortured to death as well. In Afghanistan too. Actually the only people who liked the Abu Ghraib torture were the American guards and interrogators. They are the ones smiling in the pictures. 'Hi Mom!' This from a people that calls itself Christian. Blegh.


looks to me that you allowed Kaiser to get your goat. I wonder if Kaiser is going to hold a BBQ later.~;p

[Adrian II]

looks to me that you allowed Kaiser to get your goat. I wonder if Kaiser is going to hold a BBQ later.~;pI say let him party.

https://img380.imageshack.us/img380/77/abugtorture71ck.jpg

[Soulforged]

Jesus was no killer.

Thats a major difference between Islam and Christianity.

Christianity may have been corrupted at times in its history but the teachings of Christ will always be a positive foundation.

Islam was forged in violence, torture, and death and has continued in that pattern throughout its existence. Plain and simple. Thats no bash, its the written record as best as can be determined.

Christianity has had its issues, but it has also had a reformation and has continued to redefine its stance on human rights and issues of morality.
I always wonder what reformation that's? It's protestantism? Because all the other remains the same. The Church manages and manipulates many strings of society even in 21th century, and also manipulates all his followers. Though there's differences between the two, even in essence, those difference are no placed where you want them to be.

[Soulforged]

Problems within the legal system are another obstacle for victims of sexual assault. Under the former Penal Code, a perpetrator could escape punishment by marrying the victim. This provision often placed high pressure on the victim to wed her rapist for the sake of family honor. That's not isolated to eastern culture. Before a reform of our penal code in the '30 here we've the same precept...Later it was changed. The basic premise, at least in christian countries, is that the taint to the honor of the victim (because in those times it was a crime against the honor, not the freedom) is purged because of she marrying the rapist. Poor logic if you ask me, but many of the cases ended up just well, the wife ended up forgiving the ex-rapist, and the rapist could go on with his life.
A clearification, just to show that no one is perfect...(though many people seem to lack on comprehension on that last frase or simple ignore it ~:rolleyes: )

[bmolsson]

Indeed, they always demand death penalty.


In this case under the pressure from the Australians.... ~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

PJ,

Why don't you open up a topic "I hate Islam" then ? We are forged in violence, torture and death. So that we must be opposed, I don't think The Org will prevent you from doing this ?

You really dont think the .org would stop me from making such a thread? I have made my opinions of your so called "religion" of "peace" known several times on this board and I dont intend to rehash them every time some muslum who ignores basic facts cops an attitude.

You read the history of Mohamad and how your religion was founded and show me where I mispoke.



Why do I have to prove you something ? I don't want to sound like those communists I'm not ver fond of : "Did you ever read Koran?"

I have read the Koran twice. I especially liked the parts about how to deal with the infidels. ~:rolleyes:


In a world where religions race - and you definitely contribute this - there will be no peace. We will be terrorists as long as we live. 'Cause it's you creating it with your red glasses.

I contribute to it, huh? Care to wager how many times ive been to church or even prayed this year?

I dont hate your religion because im a Christian and Ive been told to hate it(I dont know any Christian churches that teach hatred of muslims). I dont even hate it because of the 5% of you that are in fact terrorists. I have a problem with Islam because of the other 95% of you that enable terrorism either by active or passive support.

The unusually high amount of fundamentalists in Islam would not be able to sustain themselves if modern muslim society did not tolerate them. But what is modern muslim society? Is it dictatorship, theocracy, or just plain thuggery? Is it torturing children and rape victims? Is it slavery and burkas?

It is a testament to political correctness that the western world doesnt shun the muslim world openly for what it really is. Backwards and dangerous. Thats no bash, its reality.

[Soulforged]

You really dont think the .org would stop me from making such a thread? I have made my opinions of your so called "religion" of "peace" known several times on this board and I dont intend to rehash them every time some muslum who ignores basic facts cops an attitude.
You read the history of Mohamad and how your religion was founded and show me where I mispoke. How about Christianity PJ? And I don't mean middle age history I mean the foundings, at the begining of the book...

I have read the Koran twice. I especially liked the parts about how to deal with the infidels. Reading just the first part of the Bible, you will find the same basic premise, the sin and the banishing, come exactly from not abiding to the divine authority that God represents.

I contribute to it, huh? Care to wager how many times ive been to church or even prayed this year? Perhaps going to church gives you some kind of immunity...HUH?

I dont hate your religion because im a Christian and Ive been told to hate it(I dont know any Christian churches that teach hatred of muslims). I dont even hate it because of the 5% of you that are in fact terrorists. I have a problem with Islam because of the other 95% of you that enable terrorism either by active or passive support.You should ask yourself what will happen if the same happened in your country. What do you sugest to do? Do you think that it's humanly possible to them to just change that kind of things. Of course not, it's far beyond their domain.

It is a testament to political correctness that the western world doesnt shun the muslim world openly for what it really is. Backwards and dangerous. Thats no bash, its reality.Oh yes I've forgotten how the westerners were so politically correct...

[Papewaio]

looks to me that you allowed Kaiser to get your goat. I wonder if Kaiser is going to hold a BBQ later.~;p

Defending someone who defends torturing?

[Redleg]

Defending someone who defends torturing?

Nope - something else entirely.

[Papewaio]

In this case under the pressure from the Australians.... ~;)

Actually most Australians would just prefer a longer jail sentence for terrrorists and less getting time of sentence reduced because it is a holiday...

[Ironside]

People from the liberal party Folkpartiet (which ususal is a good party) said before that EU does not know any borders, and countries in Northern Africa should join in the near future. I think the left alliance agreed...

Well I missed the qoute in Swedish media, but it sounds more like a comment that EU shouldn't be an entirely Europa club. We're quite obsessed on HR-records here so it's more used to be a push to get decent laws and stopping of mistreatment in those countries.

And and would like to see a quote on that the left parties agreed, as the Greens is and I think the Left-party is both agaisnt the EU. So they would basically say that they're against EU, but they approve its expansion into Northern Africa :dizzy2: . Agreement from the Socialdemocrats is possible though.

[bmolsson]

Actually most Australians would just prefer a longer jail sentence for terrrorists and less getting time of sentence reduced because it is a holiday...

Not the Australians interviewed on Indonesian National Television..... ~:grouphug:

[Papewaio]

Not the Australians interviewed on Indonesian National Television..... ~:grouphug:

So INT interviewed the majority of Australians... or a small cross section that would make for good ratings?

[Divinus Arma]

I haven't read a full thread front to back like this in a while.

This was a very interesting discussion. Some heated comments, and also some very respectful comments.


I think I can summarize PanzerJager's rage. That is what I think he feels: Rage towards Islam.

I can understand it and I too have been... well, "frustrated".

Frustrated because American culture is in direct conflict with the more radical elements of Islam. And for many of us, it seems like radical Islam has taken over the whole of Islam. Let me provide you an example.

I read the Al Jazeera website (http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage)almost everyday. I know that I can never access to pure unadulterated information. All sources of information (newspaper, blogs, tv, radio, magazines, books, etc) act as a filter. Because of this, we all lose the truth. I know that American talk radio is very conservative. I know that American newmagazines and newspapers are gnerally very liberal. I know that most TV is liberal and that Fox news is very conservative. My point is this: If I listen to one information filter, I will be unfairly biased.

Well I do not want to be unfairly biased against one of the world's largest religions. But some of the things I read really concern me. Al Jazeera presents items that are very very biased.

Look at the Al Jazeera cartoons and find "planners (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0EE30E43-B137-417C-9FA4-E629E849E7DC.htm?)", "choppers for food programme", "new edition of history", and others. This cartoonists frequently portrays the palestinain terrorist movement as a little boy with a sling shot! Some of his stuff is solid and insightful. My problem is that this on the front page of the biggest Islamic news organization!

Edit: I used to scream "Sheet of Glass". I am angry and frustrated and I see no peaceful end to radical violent Islam. Just like PJ.

2nd edit: I find that peaceful, kind, and tolerant Islams are the exception rather tehn the rule. But then those who scream loudest get heard. Why no Islamic moderates screaming endlessly against terrorists?

[Ice]

Jesus was no killer.

Thats a major difference between Islam and Christianity.

Christianity may have been corrupted at times in its history but the teachings of Christ will always be a positive foundation.

Islam was forged in violence, torture, and death and has continued in that pattern throughout its existence. Plain and simple. Thats no bash, its the written record as best as can be determined.

Christianity has had its issues, but it has also had a reformation and has continued to redefine its stance on human rights and issues of morality.

Not to get on anyone's bad side, but I couldn't agree more. I've always thought that also.

[bmolsson]

So INT interviewed the majority of Australians... or a small cross section that would make for good ratings?

One thing is for sure, it's not the same majority of Australians you interviewed..... ~:grouphug:

[AntiochusIII]

2nd edit: I find that peaceful, kind, and tolerant Islams are the exception rather tehn the rule. But then those who scream loudest get heard. Why no Islamic moderates screaming endlessly against terrorists?You might as well ask yourself why the majority of the Americans, moderates, seems entirely nonexistent in our political environment today. ~;p

See?

Not to get on anyone's bad side, but I couldn't agree more. I've always thought that also.Prejudice, I presume? No insults intended, but it seems most likely so.
----------------------------------------------------------
Now, let's see Panzer's today religion bashing:

Jesus was no killer.Jehovah was, according not to me nor any anti-Christians, but the Old Testament. Who has more power according to the Bible?

:hide:

Thats a major difference between Islam and Christianity.Much, like every religions are supposed to be, except for the Roman copycat of the Greek religion. Yet, the difference between the two is much less that any of the two vs the Eastern religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Shinto. Not mentioning the seperate "New World Religions", of course.

Brothers were killing brothers in the Crusades, I dare say.

Christianity may have been corrupted at times in its history but the teachings of Christ will always be a positive foundation.I might as well agree with this. But could a single positive foundation withstood all the negatives of theocratic corruption?

Islam was forged in violence, torture, and death and has continued in that pattern throughout its existence. Plain and simple. Thats no bash, its the written record as best as can be determined.That's bash, period. Here's my version of your phrase: Islam was forged in might, bases from older (including Christian) religions, and an attempt to establish order in the nomadic Arab society and has continued in that pattern throughout its existence. Neither plain nor simple; extremism prospers in desperation, of course. But hey, that's human nature, not Islamic nature.

Christianity has had its issues, but it has also had a reformation and has continued to redefine its stance on human rights and issues of morality.So Christians are getting more and more liberal? ~D ~;p

See? Liberalism saves Christianity from obsoleteness!!!

But nobody could be as liberal as the founder himself... :hippie:

[Soulforged]

Not to get on anyone's bad side, but I couldn't agree more. I've always thought that also.
I'll resume it quickly. Christianity (note that I'm atheist btw) is the worst of the three religions. Religion is a question of faith. In the first moments there was little difference between judaism and christianity. Later the Church turned their backs against some of this ideals, someone called Luther catched them and turned all back on track. But this religion has always been, from it's very begining, a treachery to the so called God. The premise is pretty simple, you believe in God's words, all of them because "it" is God, or you don't believe in God, there's no half terms here, as many try to uphold. In that case you are a better balance human being, but you cannot call yourself a Christian, Christ history is pretty much lost or romanized, and the doctrine is just wrong, morally incorrect in it's very core. Protestantism didn't changed that, it changed only the way in wich this suposed God relates with reality. But if we should be forced to uphold all those ideals, in fear of hell, because if God exists as a real force then there must be a counter force, life will be unbearable. At least the other two religions, uphold all those ancient ideals, they trully believe in God, they don't change it to adapt their way of seeing the universe or with new social movements, all remains the same. Christianity is the apoteosys of oportunism, contrary to traditions, contrary to the morals, contrary to society (as any religion IMO) and contrary to it's very foundings. If you ask me why is that Christianity is the most spreaded religion on the world, it's because it's not a religion, it's a group of changing and convenients doctrine that turn and transform the so called word of God. For example it will be a good movement to allow gays or saying that them "can go to heaven", bla, bla, bla... The other way is to accept only one God one phylosophy, and try to achieve some metaphysical idea of being, wich cannot be done, but at least you know that there's no God, only an idea that you create to put your fears and your hopes in it. The last is the best desicion of those...Personally I'll not choose none of them.

[Ice]

All I'm stating is that the prophet Jesus, founded Christianity on peace, rather then by the sword as the prophet Muhammod (Sorry if I butchered the spelling) did with the founding of Islam. Jesus never forced anyone to convert, they did by their own free will.

Edit: In fact, it was not a popular idea to do it early on, with the persucution within the Roman Empire of Christians. Again, with Islam though, it was an incentive because if you didn't convert (FOR THE MOST PART), you would lose your head.

[Ice]

See?
Prejudice, I presume? No insults intended, but it seems most likely so.
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Not at all. Just facts that I have observed. I have a few Muslim friends. I have researched and been taught about Islam. I do not believe I am ignorant.

[AntiochusIII]

Not at all. Just facts that I have observed. I have a few Muslim friends. I have researched and been taught about Islam. I do not believe I am ignorant.I argue, however, that the intention of Panzer's post, in which you apparently agreed, is most...shall I say, misguided.

From a pragmatic point of view, we might as well say that both prophets are both the products of their time and the catalysts of their ages.

Thus, with the first presumption, Jesus is undoubtedly peaceful because he had no chance whatsoever for a successful rebellion. The star of the Roman Empire was great at the time and still rising with no end in sight. Any attempt at Jewish rebellion would be summarily crushed, as later happened in history.

As a prophet, why would Jesus seek war and his/his own people's destruction?

Opposites of Jesus shown themselves in native American history in their attempts to organize together to resist the colonists' expansion. Prophets rose and fell and their words were the holding forces of the Indian alliances each time. The Indians had hope; the Jews did not.

Also, Jesus was not utterly pacifist altogether, if we are to take the more plausible events in the New Testament at face value. Jesus "intruding" and "overturning" the tables of the Farisees in the temple, for example; he was, in this case, challenging the established authority of the existing religion, Judaism.

Furthermore, we must remember that the Bible is, essentially, a product of the Nicene "Creed," i.e. Catholics, supporters of the Empire.

The different versions of the Bible, the famous Dead Sea Scrolls, provided different perspective of events. Therefore, since Jesus' origins and intentions was, in the end, anti-Roman, he must be twisted into as pacifist a figure as possible so that he might appear as an advocate of the Empire, ala the Caesar vs God statement.

After all, this was the basis of one of St. Augustine's main points in his political writings, as he urged Christians to be an utterly passive presence with no real concern for or against the "Earthly" states.

In short version, I could say that Jesus rose because there was despair among the conquered Jews, who looked for spiritual comfort, but in a time and place where there was no power vacuum that Jesus might tried to assume control of. The reason for his prominence was despair.

Nonetheless, the doctrine of Christianity thus became a combination of the old Jewish beliefs (in which I will not go in detail) and New Pacifism, in which the latter advocated followers to be more-or-less keeping their profile low, to say. Even so, history proved that, when any religion gained substantial power, they turned towards Theocracy, which breed the sense of superiority and the autocratic authority of the religion, based on, of course, a divine source.

Mohammed, on the other hand, rose because of chaos--a contrast to despair of the Jews--among the Arabs. There was a clear power vacuum in Arabia, and no great empires truly sought to take over it; the price was not worth the effort.

The Arabs carried a nomadic, mercantile, rather "Wild West" (but this time "Wild Arabia") lifestyle before the years of Islam; the empty deserts contrasted with trading Oasis cities.

Thus, Mohammed could easily establish his own power in Medina. From there, he launched a social, political, and religious revolution intended, ultimately, to unite Arabia. He filled the power vacuum--there was fighting, of course, as anywhere humans live, there will always be social relations of some kind, and the old normally wouldn't like to give way to the new, especially in a revolution--hence the claims made by anti-Islam people that the religion is bloody. Undoubtedly, as a way of life in itself, the Qur'an became a much more substantial document in terms of the rules and regulations in laid down compare to a much more ideal-based (though became more pragmatic under the Catholics) doctrines of Christianity: the Qur'an was, in a literal sense, the law. It was intended as such in a land formerly of "petty laws." The Old Testament, essentially the Judaism part of Christianity, also had such rules; they were law as well. The New Testament had no such.

Also, Mohammed himself did not expand out of Arabia; it was his descendants, using the faith and fervor of the religion by the Arabs, to march into large parts of the world thanks to the fact that the two greatest empires in proximity were bled dry by the war against each other.

Islam might failed to dominate so much had both empires be as strong as they were in their heydays; the great Byzantine and Sassanid empires.

Of course, great conquests laid down the foundations of the "convert the world" ideal. After all, did they not convert large parts of the world in so short a time?

This is my viewpoint, and why I disagree with the assessment that Islam is, inherently, inferior to Christianity, as Panzer clearly implies. From a social viewpoint, the nature of both religions, at least at the time of their foundings, made sense.

Remember, too, that Christianity was never big for centuries after Jesus' death. Islam's crescebt star shot up the night sky since its start; one was an ideal, the other the law.

[GoreBag]

Just to balance things out here, Christianity did not spread as much as some people would like to think before it was adopted as the official religion of the Roman empire (read: you'd be executed for not being a Christian).

Also, the spread of Islam outside Arabia was not peaceful, but it was not cruel, either. Battles were fought and men died, but no one was executed for their beliefs. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but there is a passage in the Qu'ran about leaving people with different beliefs continue to keep them. Heretics, though, are to be shown no mercy (just like it says in the Bible).

[Aurelian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but there is a passage in the Qu'ran about leaving people with different beliefs continue to keep them. Heretics, though, are to be shown no mercy (just like it says in the Bible).

"People of the Book", which included Jews, Christians, and later Zoroastrians, could keep their religion. Idolaters, animists, and other pagans were forced to convert or die. Anyone who apostasized from Islam (left the faith) could also be executed.

Defeated "People of the Book" were allowed to keep their religion, but had to pay a poll tax, and were second class citizens. Apparently conversion was often discouraged as a way to keep up the tax base.

[LeftEyeNine]

Another full page discussion has been made while I was away at home for Ramadan Fest. It was a nice time which is a self-forceful option -that is Islamic faith- to visit my relatives. I feel purified no matter what any other one may think about my religion.

DevastatinDave,

Well, the earthly tastes are forbidden from dawn till dusk (which are exact start and ending times you can find out by looking at Ramadan times).

Since sex is one of them, when you are fasting you have to stay away from it. But sex has another exceptional treatment from Islam. When you ejaculate (that is the result of masturbation or sex naturally unless you are Taoist ~D ), you are obliged to take Gusul Abdesti which is an ordered sequence of taking bath. For example, you wash your right hand for 3 times then the left one for 3 times. The second step is cleaning your genital area and so on. You may note down the steps of Abdest on a paper and put it somewhere near and so do it by looking at it. Googling for the steps will work, I think. Though, I'm not sure if Abdest is the Arabian word for it.

Islam teaches being clean. One Hadis (= Mohammed's words) says that : "Ennezafetü minel iman" - that is "Being clean is of faith". That's why Abdest has an exceptional place in Islam and is being conducted before any religious worshipping. (It is broken by particular incidents like vomiting more than mouthful, bleeding for some time I can't remember, even by farting etc. There should be a list online for it as well)

Islam teaches peace and love whatever what one may say or try to pollute it. The ones claiming to be Muslim who acts conversely (like AQ freaks) are doomed to hell like ones that deny and swear at Allah.

"The one of yours sitting is more favorable than one that is standing" dictates ones behaving silent and mature are favorable ones. This partially clarifies the "silent moderates" matter as well.

P.S. No offense at non-believers with the above statement. Everyone is responsible for his own way of belief. However, I have to put it front the way it was said.

[Dâriûsh]

I have read the Koran twice. I especially liked the parts about how to deal with the infidels. ~:rolleyes:
Any particular quote in mind?

[Radier]

Well I missed the qoute in Swedish media, but it sounds more like a comment that EU shouldn't be an entirely Europa club. We're quite obsessed on HR-records here so it's more used to be a push to get decent laws and stopping of mistreatment in those countries.

And and would like to see a quote on that the left parties agreed, as the Greens is and I think the Left-party is both agaisnt the EU. So they would basically say that they're against EU, but they approve its expansion into Northern Africa :dizzy2: . Agreement from the Socialdemocrats is possible though.

Sorry I can´t find the qoute but I know they said that. (That FP-girl in the European parliament, with glasses, very EU-supportive). Why wouldn´t the left agree? Didn´t de left party think it was very good when countries in eastern Europe joined? That´s how I remembered it... They want alot of people in to EU, including Turkey, but they do not want to be a part of EU themselfes.

[Tribesman]

Apparently conversion was often discouraged as a way to keep up the tax base.

So , not only a religeon but a damn good business plan aswell .~:joker:

[bmolsson]

As a muslims, I can say that Islam have some serious problems. The inability to react to fanatics and terrorists within the own religion is one of the largest problems and it hits the muslims them selves harder than anyone else.
But to say that Islam is a violent religion and put a stereotype label on all muslims as terrorists is just silly......

[Soulforged]

All I'm stating is that the prophet Jesus, founded Christianity on peace, rather then by the sword as the prophet Muhammod (Sorry if I butchered the spelling) did with the founding of Islam. Jesus never forced anyone to convert, they did by their own free will.
For what your know of the Bible perhaps. But even the father of the your Father, took revenge on his death, destroying the Temple and burning things. It's a beatiful lesson to be learned, what should it be...Oh yes "Thou shall take revenge". But if the Father of your Father, is the same person (???), then we can say that the one that took revenge upon the infidels was the same Jesus...~:eek:

[Ice]

For what your know of the Bible perhaps. But even the father of the your Father, took revenge on his death, destroying the Temple and burning things. It's a beatiful lesson to be learned, what should it be...Oh yes "Thou shall take revenge". But if the Father of your Father, is the same person (???), then we can say that the one that took revenge upon the infidels was the same Jesus...~:eek:

Could you explain what u mean? I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just confused as to what you wrote.

[Soulforged]

Could you explain what u mean? I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just confused as to what you wrote.
Simple. God threw down the Temple on Israel, because his "son" was killed. If God and Jesus are the same person, then Jesus was the one who took revange. So Jesus used violence to create faith. That's not me is the word of God.

[BDC]

Simple. God threw down the Temple on Israel, because his "son" was killed. If God and Jesus are the same person, then Jesus was the one who took revange. So Jesus used violence to create faith. That's not me is the word of God.
I like that analysis of it...

And it can hardly be claimed that a lot of Christians haven't spread their faith at the point of the sword.

[Abokasee]

I like that analysis of it...

And it can hardly be claimed that a lot of Christians haven't spread their faith at the point of the sword.


thats how catholics spread it, but then again in 998- probaly 1050 muslim where pillaging italy so they hired normans and later bash em back so it only fare but twice it was protestent vs catholic


but sadly this planet earth and we cant do much about what we do...~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry: ~:mecry:


(by the im not protestant or catholic or any religon)