Clever AI Stunt...

[Moriboy]

I was defending Shinano in winter for the umpteenth time, when Uesugi marched in for his time at bat. Instead of the usual, and predictable march up the middle with the main, and flank to my left with a few archers, he did something really strange.
He conducted the same attack pattern but stopped and just stood there halfway across the map! Occasionally one of his units would jiggle a few steps forward then stop. This goes on all day, and I'm wondering what the hell is this, you want a piece of me or what?
I marched my general, flags a pumping down a bit to entice HIM into a fight.The clever bastard marches a single tiny unit of sorely depleted archers right up to my lines and fires on my general!! Mind you, these lads left their army a thousand yards back and stood loose formation in a withering storm of arrows! Talk about honor. I've got about 200 archers opening up on these cheeky yahoos like there's no tommorrow, and I'm damned hard pressed to stop them. The little archers, now at half strength, fall back to a position (still) far from their own lines, then march in again! What ever those boys were getting paid wasn't enough.
Meanwhile, the AI continues the jiggle stop dance, inching ever closer. I was loving this as the AI seldom acts "human", even on expert level which is what I always play. I still smile when I think of the tension waiting for that attack. And then it came. Boy did it come! Just as the little archers reached their lines, the whole army surged forward for a bold frontal with just a few minutes to spare... My near empty archers didn't last, so no big range kill to silence his bowmen, much less blunt the assault. In the bloody fray that ensued, I had one unit with the dreaded flickering white flag before the time ran out. I doubt the AI would have won, as I still had fresh shock troops charging down on his flank, but the kill bar, which I'm accustomed to seeing at least 80% green, was half & half. In many campaigns of defending Shinano, never did the AI come so close to pitching me out. I checked the attacking general after the battle and it was Uesugi Kenshin, 31-1. Salutations, Kenshy old boy!

[ShaiHulud]

I've seen the AI fake a retreat, trying to draw me down from a hillside. Also, he often fakes left and then goes right, I think, to catch your troops maneuvering to new positions. AI gets particularly cautious when faced with a great superiority of archers. He goes for both flanks before he assaults. He's no dummy but ya jes can't beat gray matter.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Anssi Hakkinen]

BTW... The original STW hype made vague promises about the AI's skill level varying according to general rank. Kenshy old boy indeed. I always take a huge beating from Shingen, even if my taishô gives my guys the same +3 honor bonus he gives his own... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"Learning is to a man as the leaves and branches are to a tree, and it can be said that he should not be without it."
- Takeda Shingen

[Hirosito]

i find defending shinano easier on the left hill because the height advantage is enormous and you can attack with archers near to immediately. confusing whatever tactics the AI had in the first place

what do you guys think??

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[BanzaiZAP]

Hirosito:
That's what I usually do. You not only get to shower them with arrows while they're still forming up, but you also get a nice big cliff protecting your flank. Line the top of the cliff with archers! Also, no matter which way they attack you, they have to attack you up a steep hill. Finally, you are right near their reinforcement point, so you don't have to run very far (and it's all downhill) when you rout their army. This is a great place for a tiny army to beat huge armies. The only problem is that you are a loooong way for your own reinforcements! When an archer unit runs dry, Withdraw them immediately! Especially if you have some nice fresh cavalry waiting to join the party!

Moriboy:
Sounds like his plan worked - run you out of arrows so he can charge unhindered! It's worth losing one depleted archer unit if your enemy uses up all his ammo!

It does seem that higher honor generals do help the enemy AI as well as the honor level of their troops. I really have to be careful not to fall for the fake rout.

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 02-07-2001).]

[JoBeare]

Moriboy,
That's pretty good. Uesugi Kenshin is my favorite opposing AI general. Always get a good battle from him.

The best had to be when it was just me(Shimazu), Hojo, and Uesugi left. Uesugi had about 12,000 men in Etchu. Hojo had about 10,500 in Shinano. I had about 8,000 in Hida. Talk about a "Mexican stand off". There was about a ten year arms race until Hojo and Uesugi started fighting. Then Uesugi started to attack me. That first year our combined armies went from 30,000+ to less than 10,000, including my daimyo, thanks to Uesugi Kenshin. He attacked me with usual archer rich army. I had mostly muskets, nags, and heavy cavalry. I ran off the first wave but he was able to bring in reinforcements, which happened to be about 1000 Yari Cavalry. I was using my daimyo and 4 heavy cavalry units to pursue the fleeing troops off the map when the enemy cavalry started to pour on to the field. I didn't think that my heavies would have a tough time with his Yari, but was I wrong. By the time I got my muskets and Nags up to the fray, the damage was done and my cavalry were proceeding to vacate the premises, leaving my daimyo to the hands of enemy cavalry. Once my daimyo died, it was game over. I couldn't get any of my reinforcements on to the field. Fortunately, I had a heir, but he has a low honor one compared to the one I lost.

It would be great if there were more epic battles like these. It beats the one punch KO.

JoBeare

[ShaiHulud]

Here's a thing I do that often works. When the AI sends a archer forward to draw fire, he usually comes in close formation. After some losses he changes to loose formation. When he does, order your archers to stop firing. Most often, the AI will again close formation. Then you shoot again.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Prince Peter]

I generally just charge 'em with a unit. Don't have to get too close. They'll start running if they've taken a few losses already. I either use cavalry or an expendable unit.

[ShaiHulud]

hehe..I don't have any expendable units. And, if I'm set up on a hill, it tires my units to climb back up again.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Moriboy]

The high bluff to the left in Shinano is a good spot for some troops. However, it gets a bit crowded when you try to pack an army in up there. I usually set up an archer unit at the rear of the heights to thwart flanking archers, and place a yari cavalry unit in the depression behind them to roust those boys determined to press the issue. This tactic has yet to fail.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I've never seen a Shinano game where the AI didn't send a part of his troops up the left hill. It's nice if I'm there too, yes...

...but it was even nicer when I was up on the *right* hill and got to discharge hundreds of arrows into that mass of troops down in the valley while his rock-climbing division couldn't do anything! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Still lost the battle (I was hopelessly outnumbered), but it sure was fun.

As I always say at every intersection: either I go right or I go wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"Learning is to a man as the leaves and branches are to a tree, and it can be said that he should not be without it."
- Takeda Shingen

[ShaiHulud]

The left is primo when you're outnumbered.

Set up back from the crest(on the low ridgeline there)and make right-angle line. Force the AI to climb the whole damned thing, then arrows shred them and counterattacks throw them off. Re-form, wait, and do the same thing over again. AI will try to flank thru the woods on the left. Use YS in Hold, stretched thin to hold the woodsline. A couple of cav to DISCREETLY pursue and then return to the defensive position works well. Depleted archers go into the woods and can defend well against cav flankers.

The key here, against large armies, is to stay put on top and force the AI reinforcements to travel a long way to the battle. Friendly losses will be in the 30-50% range but a lot of AI troops bite the dust.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Prince Peter]

"Friendly losses will be in the 30-50% range..."

That's prolly coz they're SO tired from all that climbing back after the counter-attacks, no?

[ShaiHulud]

Actually, I think it's from being outnumbered. Even after taking archery losses
a lot of foe will get to the top and still require a good beating to start the rout. If MY force were sufficient I'd probably not be concerned with remaining uphill and follow up the pursuit.

As it is, I usually allow one Ashi to follow the fleeing foe until they start to rallya gain. Then he retreats.back uphill and we do it again. After the 2nd rout it's usually over except for his reinforcements.


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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Hirosito]

good thing about being outnumbered in shinano is that the AI never attacks with all the troops its just too stupid
so therefore play the games descibed above in other posts and then when you see an opening to kill the taisho do it and hope for the best in an orderly fashion.

Moriboy: it does get busy on the left so i do put people on the right hill if i have enough but make sure the brunt of the enemy attack goes to your left and then mop up with your right

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif