Knights Templar Mod

[giskard]

Hello all.

I now have my next projected all sorted out for after the patch is released.

It will be a templar mod. Depending on the start date, the player will either start in portugal or france. Most of Europe will be highly Rebelious to emulate the purge of the templers that resulted from the one time members visit to the king of France.

Im thinking of none invasive ways to add a templar faction to the game but the templars where never a country but rather a group of knights from a large number of countries.

So whether I will treat the templars as a faction or simple modify the glory goals to give templar news has yet to be decided.

I have the choice of basing them in portugal after the purge but that would miss all the early history.

Do we have any templar experts in here btw ?

Giskard

[el_slapper]

I know one, but he doesn't have MTW yet in its small lost italian village... I'll keep you informed.

------------------
War is not about who is right, only about who is left

[giskard]

Thanks mate.

It would be good to have a person I can fire some questions off too if needed.

Giskard

[Wart]

Not an expert, but know some bits & pieces-feel free to ask! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Haven't checked to see if you've already done this, but starting a thread in the history forum might get some discussion going. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

BTW, you might want to think about putting some templars in scotland as well. There is some architectural evidence which suggests that at least some of them ended up there. Also, at the time that they were purged, Robert Bruce the scottish king, was an excommunicate, who needed all the allies he could get against the english, and would have had nothing to loose by harbouring them. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Edit: BTW I hope you will give them lances, and a charge value on a par with their contempory crusaders! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 10-25-2002).]

[giskard]

The Templars where pretty common throughout Europe until the purge by the french king finished them off in most countries except portugal.

The mod will track their influence as it expands across Europe so though it may seem the Templars are conquering everything in the mod, all in game messages will be about templar progress rather than them ruling over some state. Templars where an international group and as such this mod wont be about conquest of some faction. It will be able religion and influence. Catholics vs Muslims.

Giskard

[Wart]

Quote Originally posted by giskard:
The Templars where pretty common throughout Europe until the purge by the french king finished them off in most countries except portugal.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, I believe that there is strong evidence that they were in Scotland post purge as well.
Most of what I know, is from a good friend of mine who is very interested in their history, and has done a lot of research & even traveled up to scotland to look for the evidence thats there, first hand. I'm back in London in a couple of weeks, so if you have any specific questions, let me know, and i'll try to catch up with him and ask! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[TLRoff]

I would suggest the island of Malta as thier base. Admittadly it's a case of fudging with history, but hey, that happens alot in this game! During the Medieval age there were a number of riligious fighting orders. The Knight Templar, several orders in the holy lands established to naintain and defend the territory taken during the crusades (hospitalars etc) and of course the Knights of Malta. I say put them in Malta simply because as a holding for the order (assuming I recall correctly..it's been a long time since I read up on this stuff) it remained essentially inviolate into the era of Napoleon.
Also, from a player standpoint (assuming a playable faction) it provides a medocum of security while the player builds his ecomomy, and prepares for thier first go at armed diplomacy. Number one objective of course for said orders is the liberation of the holy lands from under moslem rule. (I always play for achivements first, world conquest second. Also note that historicly the Papacy had severe problems with the fighting orders. They just simply would not stay "In Line" (I recall one of the orders did quite well intill destroyed providing high interest high risk loans to the monarchs of europe...this should also be reflected if possible..some wanted to default on a lone..had a bit todo with the end of the orders..

Doesn't the order of the Knights of Malta still exist? Like I said, its been awile.

Terrance Roff
Oakland CA

[Tazmanius]

YEP!Got to agree on Scotland as a Templar base. Saw a programme on History Channel last week that showed a lot of evidence for their being in Scotland.Tombstones,a kirk called the Temple,A scroll detailing the possibility of treasures(Grail etc.)possibly being hidden in Scotland.Also mentioned a contingent of unknown mounted knights fighting for the Bruce at Bannockburn(Templars!?). They also reckon that some Scottish Lord with close ties to the Templars(And there is strong documentary and even physical evidence),along with some venetians in his service was in the Americas(Nova Scotia) in the 1390s.

[Wart]

Thanks for the support http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But a word of warning i've seen some very bad history progs on the history channel, quite often, they don't seem to be terribly well researched, or at least present possibilitys as fact. I'm not saying that this is the case with the one that you saw, or with all of them by any means, but take your history channel with a pinch of salt! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

IIRC, the tale about the Templars at bannockburn isn't a certainty. There is certainly some evidence that they were up that way, and circumstancial eveidence that they were at the battle, but no absolute proof. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif Personally I like the story, but I try to stay open minded.
The suggestion is that they actually helped Bruce train his army, mostly comprised of highland warriors, (mainly use to fighting guerilla style,) so that they could fight as a battlefield force capable of the discipline required to operate effectively as pikemen (the schiltroms). In modern terminology, you could call them military advisors.

On the second day of the battle (june 14th 1314), it may have been this contingent (about 400-500 Templars according to some sources) that lead the 'army' of small folk (camp followers) to charge the English, when the things were looking a little shakey for the scots. The english were already low on morale (for several reasons), and the sight of reinforcements joining the fray, was apparently enough to cause a massive & devastating rout amongst the english. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Edit for grammar

[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 10-27-2002).]

[giskard]

Yes i saw the same program on the history channel last week. Very interesting it was but after a little research I know for certain the templars in scotland played a very minor role.

The templars where at times a driving force for change as far as technology went which is helpful for my idea http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The problem i have is simple.

The templars are not a faction in their own right so unless i turn them into a faction they will have to be present in all catholic factions.

Still variaty is the spice of life and each region had its own specialities so it could be interesting. Malta was a centre of learning for navigators i understand thanks to the templars but nothing of importance ever left malta on a voyage of exploration. Venis on the other hand was completely different and a lot more important.

Giskard

[ICantSpellDawg]

good idea on the mod, but the island of malta would be a bad place to put them (btw the knights of st john of the hospital were the knights of malta and the knights of malta dont have anything to do with the time in which this game is played) - you could start the knights in burgundy as it was the homeland of the first grandmaster and many of the founding brothers

also - as for the order finding its way to scotland, im sure they did, but they didnt actually remain a tangible order like hte knights of christ in portugal did. Templars were also absorbed into every concievable order depending on where their preceptory was - some became teutonic brethren, calantrava, santiago, hospitaller, lazarus (depending on if they had leprocy or not) etc.

to make this a good mod, you should really have a templar expert help out, but if you cant find one, id be happy to help out as i have a crap-load of books on religious military orders and am dying to vent some history on someone naive enough to ask me a question ;-)

my screen name is tuffstuffmcgruff

[ICantSpellDawg]

actually, while the templars may have had some strong ties with scotland, very few kings in europe stood up for the temple in the face of philip le bel and clement IV's persecution of them like King Edward of england did.

Most people who believe that Scotland is where the temple went and still exists today are the same people who believe that the freemasons are an actual offshoot of the order of christ itself, but if you believe that, read holy blood holy grail by michael baigent or the hiram key by knight and lomas
- if you want history on the temple rather than pure speculation, read the new knighthood, trial of the templars, monks of war, etc

if this were gabriel knight 3 or a circle of blood game than i would say go with the first set of books, but as it is medieval total war, you need to stay true to history and go with the second set.

btw, as faction leader, you could have a grandmaster or the pope, because the order was simply a branch of the church and in all things, the popes word was first and foremost

there are so many specific things to watch out for like, make sure that all of the ordained brothers had beards as they were cumpulsory (spelling?), they need a certain dress according to their station in the order etc... soo much history so little space to write it

[giskard]

Thanks for information.

I do have a lot of questions, the biggest one is how to use the templars in a templar mod and not be faction.

To be honest i think going the faction route may turn out to be best. Any conquests the player makes would in the mod be seen as the spread of the influence the templars had.

I believe though that this would have to be a crusade mod from the start. With everything else pandering to the need to crush the Muslims.

Right now im thinking of making 1 faction playable and having that faction feature cheaper templars from the start of the game.

Glory Goals would seem to be the way this mod should be played with targets like venis, the holylands and some of the templars advances featuring heavily in the mod.

Converting lands to Catholic may also be idea as a glory goal but i think id like to give the templars a lot of vices and vertues to take into account the purge that they suffered.

Getting templar history to work in the game will be tough. But It should be fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'll note your name down for reference if thats ok. Probably will contact you when the patch has been released.

Giskard

[This message has been edited by giskard (edited 10-30-2002).]