View Full Version : Spear Changes in 1.3
Red Harvest
11-03-2005, 04:21
I've noticed a couple of new things in 1.3. While most people already know about the new "spear_bonus_4" and "8", have you also noticed the "light_spear" that accompanies the "4"? What exactly does the "light_spear" do by itself?
I did find something else that appears to have changed: "short_pike" seems to have been altered. If I change a phalanx unit to "short_pike" they continue to hold their spears in phalanx formation, even when phalanx is toggled off in battle, rather than going to raised pike formation like they should. I don't think it did this in 1.2.
There are two new attributes, light_spear and spear (yeah we have several of those now). They indicate that the unit has some sort of protection against cavalry charges.
Light is of course less than spear. I tested that myself.
The unit has to be braced for impact though.
In BI most units with spears have a normal formation hat looks like phalanx, but unlike phalanx it broken up as soon as combat is engaged, and here is not wall of points. I assume that is also the case of phalanx units outside phalanx.
What is brace for impact?
What is brace for impact?
If you watch your men, when they are stationary, they get into a kind of defensive posture with weapons and shields at the ready. I assume that's what's meant here. It seems from my casual observation that infantry - I am not sure it is just spears - seem to suffer a lot from cavalry if they try to meet them in a disordered state. When they are well formed, they do much better in holding them off. If it is true, it is a very nice feature.
I read someplace that a spear unit that is braced for impact actually puts some of the charge back against the charging force? I still think cavalry in this game are too strong however. On VH/VH I can still charge a Auxillia cav unit head on into a spear unit and route it. Rather silly.
I read someplace that a spear unit that is braced for impact actually puts some of the charge back against the charging force? I still think cavalry in this game are too strong however. On VH/VH I can still charge a Auxillia cav unit head on into a spear unit and route it. Rather silly.
When the unit is braced part of the charge bonus of the cavalry unit will be transfered to the attack of the spearmen, making the horsemen more likely to fall of their horse before contact.
I read someplace that a spear unit that is braced for impact actually puts some of the charge back against the charging force? I still think cavalry in this game are too strong however. On VH/VH I can still charge a Auxillia cav unit head on into a spear unit and route it. Rather silly.
Which spear unit?
DensterNY
11-09-2005, 19:38
I agree that the cavalry is just too strong but then again they did make all the difference historically in most forms of ancient warface.
In MTW I would never even consider running my cavalry into anything that was remotely spear-like because they'd get skewered. However, in BI I used a mediocre General and his 20 or so Heavy Cavalry and killed over 213 in one battle and many of these enemy units were spearmen or Comitanes. I do however like the changes to the spears from RTW when it comes to melee combat. Although swords are supposed to beat spears nearly every non-roman enemy unit was filled with phalanx forming units that were way too tough.
A.Saturnus
11-09-2005, 21:26
In MTW I would never even consider running my cavalry into anything that was remotely spear-like because they'd get skewered. However, in BI I used a mediocre General and his 20 or so Heavy Cavalry and killed over 213 in one battle and many of these enemy units were spearmen or Comitanes. I do however like the changes to the spears from RTW when it comes to melee combat. Although swords are supposed to beat spears nearly every non-roman enemy unit was filled with phalanx forming units that were way too tough.
That´s not entirely true. In MTW, chiv knights could charge chiv sgts and win, though admittedly, no one should be able to charge phalanx pikemen and live.
Although swords are supposed to beat spears nearly every non-roman enemy unit was filled with phalanx forming units that were way too tough.
Swords would not beat phalanx frontally unless it was disrupted.
Watchman
11-09-2005, 22:09
Well, a proper phlanx (in the context, ie. the Hellenic/Swiss sort) had pikes. Those are a bit different issue. The Romans swapped their old-Greek style spearman phalanxes to sword-toting maniples partly because the former turned out not to work too well against the Celts, who liked to wave long swords around if they could.
That said, one has to admit the assorted bodyguard units in BI are seriously hardcore. Damn near the single toughest units in the game, and thus probably not such a good yardstick as a result. Still, I've found out it's best to avoid charging spearmen of any quality frontally if you don't absolutely have to, as it would seem casualties can be surprisingly high in that sort of thing. Heck, casualties can get surprisingly high even if you smash into the poor spearmen when they're moving or otherwise out of formation (as is often the case; the AI seems to have some issues in deplying its spearmen properly), whereas even a grade better other infantry tends to just get demolished without meaningful damage to the bodyguards.
Spears still work rather better against even general-level cavalry than other infantry weapons, though. Or at least that's the conclusion I came to after watching assorted fights between various forms of Clibanarii and both Comitatenses and Legio Lanciarii; the Commies tended to get hammered a lot worse than the Lances in similar situations (ie. taking the charge standing still). It would also seem that decent spearmen - say, Lanciarii or Bosphoran Mercs - can even counter-charge heavy cavalry to reasonable effect, or at least I've yet to see them perform remarkably badly in such situations.
Whenever I've had to frontally fight even low-end "real" spearmen (ie. the sort with the +8 bonus, such as Sassanid Levy Spearmen or barbarian Spear Levies) with lighter cav like Equites Auxilia, Dromedarii or Frankish Raiders the match has tended to produce nasty casualties, although I've also made a point of ramming another unit in the rear of the enemy or pulling the cavalry off pretty soon as a result too as I prefer not to waste troops.
IMHO it's really only appropriate that low-grade spear troops - say, Limitanei or Mountain Men - tend to get whipped even by light cavalry. Merely giving them long pointy sticks never made infantrymen too good horse-stoppers after all, they also needed things like discipline and cohesion so as not to pee in their pants at the admittedly intimidating sight of big animals bearing down on them, mess up the formation and get slaughtered as a result when the line doesn't hold. Coversely determined heavy infantry even without spears, pikes and polearms was often capable of defeating cavalry charges simply by presenting a solid, unbreachable mass at the horsemen and then counterattacking after the initial momentum was dissipated against the obstacle.
Well, a proper phalanx (in the context, ie. the Hellenic/Swiss sort) had pikes. Those are a bit different issue.
Phalanx in RTW is what the poster was talking about when he said they were way too tough vs swords.
I do however like the changes to the spears from RTW when it comes to melee combat. Although swords are supposed to beat spears nearly every non-roman enemy unit was filled with phalanx forming units that were way too tough.
They should be tough frontally vs swords, but maybe some spear units such as germanic spearmen shouldn't have phalanx ability.
Red Harvest
11-10-2005, 06:41
They should be tough frontally vs swords, but maybe some spear units such as germanic spearmen shouldn't have phalanx ability.
I was going to give them short_pike again, but that doesn't seem to work quite right in 1.3.
However, they need to have a knife/sword added for secondary anyway. During 1 vs 1 tests they raise pikes, and punch at the player's men with their fist containing a vertical pike. Plus it would probably weaken them in melee anyway if they had another weapon. I gave them a 5 with a knife/sword.
However, they need to have a knife/sword added for secondary anyway.
Gaul spearmen don't have a secondary weapon, and they work fine.
Red Harvest
11-10-2005, 15:17
Gaul spearmen don't have a secondary weapon, and they work fine.
So they are a phalanx unit then? I didn't see this unit in the BI stats Excel file I have. The graphic issue is a phalanx problem. The AI, genius that it is, decides to raise pikes while fighting in RTW 1.3 (might be just a 1.3 issue with the captain/general in the unit, not sure.) It stands there "trading blows" with a vertical pike, but looking like a swordsman, sans sword. If you put in the sword/knife secondary weapon stats, they start behaving normally.
Gaul spearmen don't have phalanx capability and don't point their spears up in the air. They fight with their spear all the time, and as a consequence are more dangerous to enemy infantry and to cavalry than if they switched to a less effective secondary weapon.
Red Harvest
11-10-2005, 23:17
Gaul spearmen don't have phalanx capability and don't point their spears up in the air. They fight with their spear all the time, and as a consequence are more dangerous to enemy infantry and to cavalry than if they switched to a less effective secondary weapon.
That's what I though you were referring to. I was getting at the issue being peculiar to phalanx units.
That's what I though you were referring to. I was getting at the issue being peculiar to phalanx units.
Well the only phalanx unit I know of which doesn't have a secondary weapon shouldn't have phalanx capability.
Trithemius
11-11-2005, 04:24
In MTW I would never even consider running my cavalry into anything that was remotely spear-like because they'd get skewered. However, in BI I used a mediocre General and his 20 or so Heavy Cavalry and killed over 213 in one battle and many of these enemy units were spearmen or Comitanes. I do however like the changes to the spears from RTW when it comes to melee combat. Although swords are supposed to beat spears nearly every non-roman enemy unit was filled with phalanx forming units that were way too tough.
Comitatenses are not especially well protected against cavalry charges; that's why you need the lanciarii (why are they spear-men exactly? doesn't the research suggest they were just elite light troops?), foederati spears and auxilia palatina to protect them. I phased out spears in my ERE army though, since I found that I break most charges with a shower of javelins from the comitatenses and a quick countercharge from my light cavalry, followed by a flank attack from my heavier cavalry or the comitatenses themselves.
Trithemius
11-11-2005, 04:34
Shouldn't hoplites and other spear-armed troops form some kind of shield-wall, rather than a phalanx in RTW? The phalanx in RTW seems to be more of a pike-based formation for phalangites and other pikemen, whereas the shield wall seems more appropriate for hoplites and other shield-and-spear armed soldiers?
While I'm at it, isn't the use of the schiltron formation a bit anachronistic? I'd thought it was a later development?
Shouldn't hoplites and other spear-armed troops form some kind of shield-wall, rather than a phalanx in RTW? The phalanx in RTW seems to be more of a pike-based formation for phalangites and other pikemen, whereas the shield wall seems more appropriate for hoplites and other shield-and-spear armed soldiers?
While I'm at it, isn't the use of the schiltron formation a bit anachronistic? I'd thought it was a later development?
Sure but RTW can't handle it... So for a while I considered a complete move-over into BI for the Imperial Campaign as only a few things are missing.
I was going to give them short_pike again, but that doesn't seem to work quite right in 1.3.
However, they need to have a knife/sword added for secondary anyway. During 1 vs 1 tests they raise pikes, and punch at the player's men with their fist containing a vertical pike. Plus it would probably weaken them in melee anyway if they had another weapon. I gave them a 5 with a knife/sword.
That must be a 1.3 issue, for in 1.2 the german spears have a short sword/dagger/knife which they use properly when the enemy is past the spearpoints.
Does the same in 1.3 apply to any other phalanx unit, i.e. do all phalanx units raise their pikes and use their fists?
That must be a 1.3 issue, for in 1.2 the german spears have a short sword/dagger/knife which they use properly when the enemy is past the spearpoints.
Does the same in 1.3 apply to any other phalanx unit, i.e. do all phalanx units raise their pikes and use their fists?
No. The secondary weapon was removed from the germanic spearmen in v1.3, but other phalanx units still have their secondary weapon.
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