The myth of the Elephant Charge

[Lord Krazy]

This is not only a satire of another
thread,but it's also for real http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So all Elephant dung here please!

LK

[Wellington]

Elephant sizes!
---------------

1) Take a lot at the following image (Carthaginian war Elephant)-
http://www.navigatorminiatures.com/images/c_76.JPG

and these -
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/images/carr7.jpg http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/images/dba31bgg07.jpg

These are 'smallish' elephants in respect to the men.

2) Now look at this image (and if this does'nt whet your appetite for war elephants - then nothing will!!!) -
http://www.schmaeling.de/images/products/X011c.jpg

This IMHO is a largish/well-sized elephant.

Which one looks better in terms of size?
Notice that in 2), the fight action greatly increases the height of the elephant.

3) The previous 2 were African Elephants. Now check the size of an Indian (mongal) Elephant -
http://www.miniwars.com/images/graphics/timuridelephant.jpg

A bit smaller you agree.

4) All images above have a howdah with men in. Now, without howdah and just a mahout (the driver/rider)-
http://www.dbaol.com/images/faces/17_face.jpg http://www.dbaol.com/images/faces/1513_face.jpg

The above sizes (for Numidian and Indian Elephants) are obviously a lot smaller, and therefore easier to represent - but not half as nice!!

[kyodai-britishbeef]

I have recently been to the royal amouries at leeds , england and there is a life size elephant with warrior and man ws it huge and scary, how u could fight against one i would not know but i would love units like this. i will post a pic when my filmhas been developed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Big elephant bad ,small elephant good.
A simple but effective way at looking
at our problem I think.

I only call it a problem because
we don't have one so to speak.
An elephant that is.
But from the frame we drew
the camel size looks a bit like
your small pics a bit bigger maybe, Welly.
So that should do no?
Or do you think a real scale is possible.
I would prefer practical to possible
as we are the only suckers up for
drawing the beasts at the moment that
I know of.This will soon change.
If I say it enough times it might
happen http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

LK

[Stefan the Berserker]

As far as I know Warelphants wore a box with archers...

Bif-Lbm Elephants will be possible but maybe not the beautiest. Would Elephants work as Siege-weapons? I mean like the Ramm or my Light Magnoel http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif as 3D-model... But difficult OR Impossible!

Tööörrröööö!

I: "Benjamin Blümchen, just kill Saladin!"

Saladin: "EEEEEKK!" Squish, die, slime...

I: "Oh fine Elephant! Here you get some peanuts! BTW: Longshanks is waiting over there..."

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
As far as I know Warelphants wore a box with archers... [/QUOTE]

You know wrong! Not all Elephants used in ancient armies carried howdahs (the box) for a few troops. The truth of the matter is that is was neither practical nor necessary in most cases.

Not many ancient sources refer to a howdah in battle (for elephants) - but it sure does look aesthetically good for tabletop armies!!

The main objective of Elephants in battle was to cause a fear factor and thus break up the enemy battle line - allowing the closely accompanying infantry to take advantage of the ensuing disorder in the enemy ranks.

These were elephants - NOT tanks!!!!

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker: Bif-Lbm Elephants will be possible but maybe not the beautiest. Would Elephants work as Siege-weapons? I mean like the Ramm or my Light Magnoel http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif as 3D-model... But difficult OR Impossible! [/QUOTE]

LBM?
Siege-weapons??
Mangonels???

Er .. get a grip Stefan!

[Stefan the Berserker]

Some Warelephants had, some didn't.

Making Elephants like a normal Unit is possible but not that beautiful, thats what I ment. Making Elephant Riders can't be done like Horses or Camels in MTW, I think the rider must be painted on the Elephant directly... Elephants are a bit taller than a Tree, so much bigger than any other Unit.

Are Lbm Files ignored or not necessary, or why did you critizise me?

Why not make an Elephant like Siege Equippment? If it was possible... If possible why not an single Elephant with one man as crew that walks next to him? As a cheaper version for Africans to attack Palisade Walls?

I don't really want to have an Elephant, I prefer Horses... And I encountered some funny things: Spanish Peasants riding on Donkys and Nubians riding on these big black Birds in th desert. OK, the last one is not very realistic but they did! I think their use is limited but it would be funny. If it was possible I would have liked Attack dogs but this is really not possible to bring it in realistic!

Mithrandir is poor at that point, he must make Orcs riding on Wolves and Mamùks which are some sort of Elephant...

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Some Warelephants had, some didn't.[/QUOTE]

True

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Making Elephants like a normal Unit is possible but not that beautiful, thats what I ment. Making Elephant Riders can't be done like Horses or Camels in MTW, I think the rider must be painted on the Elephant directly... Elephants are a bit taller than a Tree, so much bigger than any other Unit.[/QUOTE]

???

Providing the image had no howdah (the box on top) -
a)The mahout (rider can be done EXACTLY like a normal figure image.
b)The Elephant can be represented as a mount (horse/camel).

Including the mahout image with the Elephant would make this unit an infantry unit as there is no longer a mount (in terms of the MTW engine)! You WILL have problems with prod11 if you do this.

Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Are Lbm Files ignored or not necessary, or why did you critizise me? [/QUOTE]

There was no criticism intended. My apoligies if it came over that way.

Models use LBMs and cannot move.
Figures uses BIFs and can move.


Quote Originally posted by Stefan the Berserker:
Why not make an Elephant like Siege Equippment? If it was possible... If possible why not an single Elephant with one man as crew that walks next to him? As a cheaper version for Africans to attack Palisade Walls?[/QUOTE]

If you represent an Elephant as a model it CANNOT move, and you cannot create 4 camera angle images and 4 actions for it. It becomes as useful as a tree.

[Hakonarson]

Bah - far too serious!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Of course elephant charges happened!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Porus's Indians had elephants mixed in with their infantry fighting against eth front of the pike phlanx, alter Indians and SE Asian armies often used massed elephants as did some Arab/turkic armies (Ghaznavids).

elephant riders varied - African elephants weer small and usualy only carried 1 man sitting astride + a Mahout - this is the African forest elephant and it's now extinct - not to be confused with the larger African plains elephant we're all familiar with. A bit later on they had light howdahs and still only carried 1 crew - they fought against larger Indian elephants at Raphia (217BC) and are recorded as having been severely disadvantaged because if their smaller size.

Burmese elephants carried up to 6 men armed with javelins in pannier-like racks along their sides. records say they carried 12 or 14, but the extras probably fought on foot as escort infantry.

[Lord Krazy]

Hak.
if you are refering to the title
it's a piss take of another thread.
We are more debating the the do's
and don'ts and how to's of
implamenting the graphics.
It would be silly after all
to talk about the realism of
actions of units we can't
have in the first place.
and yes, all the more reason
not to be too serious.

Btw Stef I'v got a tree
that's three feet tall (thats one meter)
So if my elephant's bigger than that
would that be cool http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Don't forget the elephants will be done for
a mod not for MTW as we know it.
So the scale has not been defined
so it's not really an issue yet
I thought I made this clear before
but just in case.We do not have other units
made yet.When we do we can make them what size we want so a small elephant in MTW
could be a big one in MTW"ROME"
I have also made it clear that not
only do we know how to do this
we know a couple of ways to do this.
The thing now is
who the f#$k apart from Welly
and LBA (who never comes here
as, two of us saying the same things
would not be efficent and he prefers to
draw instead of write anyway) are going
to work on them .The Lord's are few
our tasks are many.We can't do it all
but we will do our bit.
We just want to provide new graphics
mostly and let others sort out the
rest.It's not because we don't want to do the rest we just can't do it all
well not quickly.
Btw I'v seen a tree in Canada and it
was about 25 meters tall.Those Elephants
would be too big http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

___________________________________________
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"I would have liked Attack dogs but this is really not possible to bring it in realistic!"
---------------------------------------------
GET BACK TO ME ON THIS ONE
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_____________________________________________
Mithrandir is poor at that point, he must make Orcs riding on Wolves and Mamùks which are some sort of Elephant
------------------------------------------
Is this some sort of code that I need
to learn as I don't ken?

__________________________________________
So Welly let stef alone:P
your scaring Hak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
And Stef let Welly alone:P
Your scaring me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Regards
LK

[Stefan the Berserker]

No code, Mithrandir's Fantasy Mod will probably contain these things. So he will have difficulties I think...

Your tree is not the tree I ment http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif , I ment trees like they are there in MTW-Animation. Your Elephant should, if it was realistic, bigger than it!

Elephant Chrage > In hot regions this was really used, but imagine an Warelephant attacking on English terrain. It's to cold for him (apart he would hate the rain)... So if there is really the idea to make Warelephants better arrange that it tires fster in cold terrain, like Knights do in the desert...

[Lord Krazy]

"Mithrandir's Fantasy Mod will probably contain these things. So he will have difficulties I think..."

We can help him to learn how
to add some creatures
if he has problems, whatever on what
ever is not a problem,with in reason.
It's the time it takes,
so no hurries no worries.
I mean half the stuff we do
turn out like monsters
anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

LK

[Wellington]

Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
"Mithrandir's Fantasy Mod will probably contain these things. So he will have difficulties I think..."[/QUOTE]

I'm sure he will.

However, some of the things he may want to have (flying animals/units that can also descend for fighting, the 'undead' arising from the ground to fight!) is possible - in fcat its relatively strightforward.

I just wonder if he knows whats required to do these 'specialties'.


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
We can help him to learn how
to add some creatures
if he has problems, whatever on what
ever is not a problem,with in reason.
It's the time it takes,
so no hurries no worries.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.


Quote Originally posted by Lord Krazy:
I mean half the stuff we do
turn out like monsters anyway [/QUOTE]

AND ... some of us look like monsters http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

... or so I've told!