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VAE VICTUS
11-04-2005, 23:27
are their amy examples of ancient taunts/ insults? did they differ from todays,or do they basically say the same thing?
are their amy examples of ancient taunts/ insults? did they differ from todays,or do they basically say the same thing?
THe purpose of the taunts and insults in ancient battle across the open ground at each other was to enrage the enemy so that his tactics and unit cohesion fell apart - so that when your troops did their concentrated attack - they might have a greater chance of success. There insults and taunts also served the purpose to de-humanize the enemy so that it was easier to do battle, and to raise the moral of the troops you were fighting with.
(At least that seems to be the pattern when I look at it, now someone who studied ancient battles and the effects of the taunts in a more historical aspect should be able to answer the question in much more detail.)
Weebeast
11-05-2005, 01:09
The purpose will never change. It's always been about distraction/breaking morale. The taunts, however, do change from time to time. My knowledge stops right here.... lol
If my source (TV, movies, etc) serves me right then I can say some ancient groups played music(drum) to break down enemies morale and nourish their own morale. Some of them did military chant type of thing while marching.
It is interesting to note that even today we see the same pattern.
When two hooligan groups meet to fight (in and organized fashion), they almost spend more time tauning and yelling at each other to work themselves up into a frenzy. Often with single guys taking steps outside the line to challenge some other guy to a single fight... Give them swords and shields and we have an ancient little clan battle instead.
And better yet we have the confrontations with the police (when out of teargas), there we have the crowd doing much the same, while the police advances either silently or with banging shields. I imagine it is a sight similar to how the Romans would have done it when fighting Gauls and Celts..
Seamus Fermanagh
11-05-2005, 02:34
In addition to the points noted above, the "taunt" also serves to conquer one's own fear. In high stress situations -- combat, public speaking, etc. -- the body starts cranking adrenalin. Anything that helps you to focus that sudden pool of energy externally will help you minimzed the sense of fear that is also associated wit the adrenalin rush. Used to teach things along these lines to my public speaking students [focusing energy outward, not taunting -- taunting your audience is almost always a Bozo no-no for a speaker].
Adrian II
11-05-2005, 02:48
(..) we have the crowd doing much the same, while the police advances either silently or with banging shields. I imagine it is a sight similar to how the Romans would have done it when fighting Gauls and Celts..After the speech from their commander, the Romans would usually wait in silence whilst the missiles and pilae did their work, then holler a collective war cry ('Victory at any cost!'), followed by a silent march toward the enemy, a tactic that was reported to be much more intimidating than any individual taunts from the opposition. At Jotapata (68 a.D.) for instance, Joseph ben Mattias ordered his men to plug their ears against the terrifying Roman battle cry.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-05-2005, 17:09
After the speech from their commander, the Romans would usually wait in silence whilst the missiles and pilae did their work, then holler a collective war cry ('Victory at any cost!'), followed by a silent march toward the enemy, a tactic that was reported to be much more intimidating than any individual taunts from the opposition. At Jotapata (68 a.D.) for instance, Joseph ben Mattias ordered his men to plug their ears against the terrifying Roman battle cry.
Ties in with what I've read too. Think how scary -- you are pumped up and shouting/bragging like your barb buddies and this thing marches at you with only the sound of footsteps in unison...
didn't the spartans also fight in silence?
hellenes
11-05-2005, 19:12
didn't the spartans also fight in silence?
It was said that the Spartans were taught to fight without anger and that their swords were made short so they can see the enemy in the eyes while they kill.
Hellenes
After the speech from their commander, the Romans would usually wait in silence whilst the missiles and pilae did their work, then holler a collective war cry ('Victory at any cost!'), followed by a silent march toward the enemy, a tactic that was reported to be much more intimidating than any individual taunts from the opposition. At Jotapata (68 a.D.) for instance, Joseph ben Mattias ordered his men to plug their ears against the terrifying Roman battle cry.
Well that was teh Imperial times when the Leginaries carried a single pilum.
I was thinking more along the lines of Polybian and/or early Marian legionaries.
Regarding taunts, I do not have a source, but supposedly they found a stone (belonging to a slinger) with the word “catch” written on it.
^^^^ Brilliant ~:joker:
It was said that the Spartans were taught to fight without anger and that their swords were made short so they can see the enemy in the eyes while they kill.
Hellenes
Didn't they sing while closing at the enemy?
And wasn't there a saxon warcry where they shouted "ut! ut! ut!" at the enemy?
EDIT: to AdrianII, Wouldn't plugging you'r ears so that you didn't hear a horrible warcry be counter-productive? ("If they'r warcry is so horrible i have to plugg my ears...")
Rodion Romanovich
11-06-2005, 17:55
Speaking of taunts, where and when does "your mother" originate from?
Ianofsmeg16
11-06-2005, 18:38
Insulting ones mother is usually a cause for a bar room brawl, probably dates back ages, mothers are a touchy subject
Adrian II
11-06-2005, 20:47
EDIT: to AdrianII, Wouldn't plugging you'r ears so that you didn't hear a horrible warcry be counter-productive?
Probably not. The effectivenes of the Roman battle cry, in contrast to the utter silence of the troops before and after it, is documented. But ear-plugging is a recurrent topos in myths and legends so you may take its historicity with a grain of salt.
*Consults his Odyssee... :book:*
[..] let every ear
Be stopp'd against the song! 'tis death to hear!
Firm to the mast with chains thyself be bound,
Nor trust thy virtue to the enchanting sound.
If, mad with transport, freedom thou demand,
Be every fetter strain'd, and added band to band.
https://img334.imageshack.us/img334/6233/ulissessereiavase6qw.jpg
Duke Malcolm
11-06-2005, 21:22
Speaking of taunts, where and when does "your mother" originate from?
It probably is just defending one's family honour. Can't have anyone defaming the name of one's mum...
Idomeneas
11-07-2005, 02:33
It was said that the Spartans were taught to fight without anger and that their swords were made short so they can see the enemy in the eyes while they kill.
Hellenes
Spartans used to sit down or rest their shields on theit thighs till the enemy was really getting close. That was in order to show they were really professionals and not nervous militia. They used to sing the kastoreion melos a warsong devoted to the twins Kastor and Polydeukes.
Their swords during middle classic period were indeed made shorter but not because they wanted to look the eyes of the opponent (the standard greek xiphos was 50-60 cm long, quite short anyway) but for practical reasons. Every phalanx clash was reaching at some point to othismos state. Meaning the pushing were everyone was locking his shield to his front man back and push till the men in front rows overthrow the opponents. Like the game with the rope but reversed. So in this situation of full contact the distance was few cm. With a standard sword beared in left side they had to catch the grip with the right hand turn it downwards and lock the scabbard with their left elbow (remember they always bear the shield) in order to draw the sword and not screw up the phalanx (or get killed by the opponent). Quite a trouble ha?
So they had it shorter like a dagger wich they held with the scabbart on hand along with the shield grip. Anyway the targeted points were the neck the thighs (cutting the main artery) and ''strategic men body parts~;) (nice way to go~:eek: ) ''. So it worked fine.
A very common insult was to call somebody a dog. Illiad especially is full of insults during battle.
Regarding taunts, I do not have a source, but supposedly they found a stone (belonging to a slinger) with the word “catch” written on it.
Not a stone, but a lead bullet. From Greece somewhere, with an inscription saying something like "take this", "catch" could of course also be used. But that is just irony as it can't really be considered a taunt as it is only visible prior to the slinging.
Almost all men have a weakspot about their mothers. They are the one to have raised him and a lot of other stuff. To an extent men see their mothers as something like the Virgin Mary... To indicate the opposite stings deep in them. Also normally women could not defend their own honour, so it was up to the men of family to defend it. Obviously that would make insults directed at the mother extremely effective even if the target person managed to brush off insults at his father or himself.
aw89, yes the Anglo-saxons used "UT! UT! UT!" As a warcry, meaning "out out out". Quite simple but also rather effective as it has a lot of punch in it, so if 10000 men yell it in unison it would be most impressive. But won't you agree that the warcry loses it's potency if it is used when you attack someone else's home? It would become hollow to the attackers, possibly even a drain on morale. So it was a defensive warcry.
VAE VICTUS
11-07-2005, 10:20
regarding the lead bullet inscribed with "catch", in WW2 didnt both sides paint bombs, shells, with words like "merry x mas adolf" or something to that affect?
Everybody did that, and still do. I have seen enough footage from Gulf War I of the ground crews writing something like "For Saddam, from the merry crew of [whatever]".
Ironside
11-07-2005, 17:30
Ties in with what I've read too. Think how scary -- you are pumped up and shouting/bragging like your barb buddies and this thing marches at you with only the sound of footsteps in unison...
The Swedish karoliner armies were trained to attack under complete silence. Very scary for the opponents.
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