Chariot Tests

[Red Harvest]

Ok, this is a modding topic to some degree, but I thought it might interest the bulk of the community. First, there are some historical reasons to slow down chariots--the neck-girth harness being a primary one. I've modded most chariots to "heavy horse" in the descr_mount.txt file to accomplish this.

The main reason I'm posting is that I also changed the scythed chariot horse to "cataphract horse." This looks AWESOME (sorry, I'm not into screenies.) Now the horse and charioteer have similar armour. I didn't realize how good this would look until I tried it. Also, the cataphract horse is slower...that was the primary reason for doing this of course, but the secondary visual effect was a nice bonus.

Another thing I wanted to relate is that I've been fiddling with the new fs_chariot_javelinman skeleton in 1.3. I have converted the light british chariots from archers to javelins for historical reasons. Unfortunately, the unit is very ineffective until various measures are taken. I used the simple british peltast skin that is "hidden" in the game. Javelin attack from a chariot is a problem because the formation is rarely in range--it is too dispersed and the range is too short. With only 18 guys firing on "large" the unit lacked any sting and was very slow about using its missiles. So how to make this into a decent skirmisher? Here is what I did: 1. Changed the mental state to "trained" so that the formation is not so loose. 2. Tightened the formation spacing. 3. Changed range to 65 (from 50). 4. Increased missile attack to 11 with armour piercing. 5. Added a second passenger--effectively doubling the missile firing rate--but left the hitpoints untouched, want them to remain vulnerable. 6. Added 2 points of shield defense to be consistent with the skin/model.

[Ziaelas]

Oh go on, take a screenie, you know you want to ;)

Please, I would like to see how awesome they are before I edit my files.

[zukenft]

The cataphract-on-chariots are indeed cool.
For the chariot javelins, all you've done is right, except increasing the attack stats and range. I think increasing ammo would be better.
oh, and if you're starting from vanilla, jacking up the chariot prices would be nice. These toys are expensive...

[Red Harvest]

The cataphract-on-chariots are indeed cool.
For the chariot javelins, all you've done is right, except increasing the attack stats and range. I think increasing ammo would be better.
oh, and if you're starting from vanilla, jacking up the chariot prices would be nice. These toys are expensive...
No, I tried more ammo first. Doesn't work well at all. They drive around forever without ever being a threat to anyone (killing a few men if they are lucky.)

Javelin wielders rarely can get in range to actually throw. Range must be increased in vanilla RTW for them to work right anyway. I usually leave mounted javs at 50 because they can approach and throw easily, but I set foot at 60 or 65. Chariots are slower to turn, more like foot, hence the need for range. You have to have a higher attack value or the unit is just useless. Besides, these guys would be "elites" as javelinmen, and could be expected to have higher quality javs with substantial thin iron shafts, and to use the speed of the chariot to their advantage. A javelin is more dangerous than an arrow...the flip side is that getting that close is more dangerous to the javelin wielder as well. ~;) That is a problem with RTW, the default javelins are fairly weak as it is, up until you get to the skirmisher warband. The firing rate on chariots seems slow...this might be part of the problem. I haven't tried a static timed test of the animation being used.

The other part that is missing is that in real life, these guys were well equipped and could dismount and melee where the opportunity presented. There is not anything I can do about that at the moment. I'm still using the shirtless guys with their small round shield since I don't have 3DMax, etc.

I left prices as they were because they were archers before. Long range attack beats even very powerful javelins in most cases. An archer is a fundamentally stronger unit.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Hey Red, are you planning to make your modifications publicly available? I would be your first customer. ~;)
.

[Red Harvest]

I'll try giving the instructions here for how I changed the chariot unit (back up files first, and other standard disclaimers). This is probably not the best way, but it worked:
1. Go to descr_model_battle.txt and exchange the barb chariot archer skeleton to the new javelin skeleton.
2. Also change to the unused british skirmisher warband textures--they didn't have a sprite so I left in the old chariot archer sprite (haven't gotten around to trying another sprite or using the sprite editor--main visible difference is the upper body is darker wit this sprite).
3. Use the existing gaul skirmisher warband model.

type barb_chariot_archer
skeleton fs_chariot_javelinman, fs_chariot_sword
indiv_range 40
texture britons, data/models_unit/textures/unit_barb_warband_peltast_briton.tga
model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_warband_peltast_gaul_high.cas, 8
model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_warband_peltast_gaul_med.cas, 15
model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_warband_peltast_gaul_low.cas, 30
model_flexi data/models_unit/unit_warband_peltast_gaul_lowest.cas, max
model_sprite britons, 60.0, data/sprites/britons_barb_chariot_archer_sprite.spr
model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

4. Insert new information for the unit in export_descr_unit.txt. I added 1 extra man to each chariot. I tightened the formation spacing and trained level. Also added 2 for the shield for consistency, then put int the javelin attributes I wanted.

type barb chariot light briton
dictionary barb_chariot_light_briton ; British Light Chariots
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Medium_1
soldier barb_chariot_archer, 27, 9, 1
mount barbarian heavy chariot
mount_effect elephant -8, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, frighten_foot, cantabrian_circle
formation 6.5, 7, 12, 12, 2, square
stat_health 1, 2
stat_pri 11, 4, javelin, 65, 6, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr thrown ap
stat_sec 10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr launching, ap
stat_pri_armour 3, 1, 2, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, -2, -4, 2
stat_mental 12, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 500, 170, 50, 80, 500
ownership britons

5. In my own version I changed the horse in descr_mount.txt for the barbarian heavy chariot to "medium horse" rather than "light horse" if I recall correctly. Might change it to "heavy horse" later.

6. Updated the description in export_units for the "British Light Chariots" so that it says they "hurl javelins" rather than shoot arrows. Didn't change the name of the unit, since it didn't mention weapon type.

7. I haven't updated the unit card for this one. It's a chariot, looks close enough for me right now...~D

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Thanks! :2thumbsup:

If only we had an equivalent of Gnome Editor for RTW.
:thinking2:
.

[Red Harvest]

Guess I should mention:
While I was at it I added these same British skirmisher warbands to the britons as well as a foot unit. Historically Caesar talks of being harrassed by javelin throwers in various forms once he landed. Seemed crazy that the Britons had none in RTW. Put in descriptions, made a quickie unit card, but haven't cleared out the background grass on it yet. I inserted these British skirmish warbands in front of slingers in the build queue, then added the archery range to Briton's buildable list for producing slingers. I dropped the skirmisher warbands a point on melee from the Gaul/German unit (5 vs. 6.)

I also added a unit for British barbarian cavalry. Same method as for the peltast. The tga is already there for the skin, so it is just adding a few lines and substituting Brtion for Gaul. Put these in as a direct replacement for those blasted wardogs which were bred in the stable.

I deleted head hurlers--one of the reasons for adding the foot skirmisher.

I would like to change the heavy chariot to be an armoured javelinman using the existing chosen warrior or archer skin, but would need a new model and reskin for the javelin I think.

[Kraxis]

I think you should up the numbers of javelins substantially. Going from 40 arrows to 6 javelins is a significant decrease in killingpower. Also one must assume that the noble warrior on the chariot would be carrying a lot of javelins in sidepouches and the like on his chariot.
Remember that the light chariot is extremely weak in melee, so when out of javelins it is basically done for the battle. Normal footskirmishers are actually more effective than these since they can actually do melee to an extent, don't cost nearly as much and most importantly are many more.

The javelinschariot in BI also only carries 6, but I upped them to 16, so theyweren't outnumberd by the Plumbatarii's plumbata.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

The main reason I'm posting is that I also changed the scythed chariot horse to "cataphract horse." This looks AWESOME (sorry, I'm not into screenies.) Now the horse and charioteer have similar armour. I didn't realize how good this would look until I tried it. Also, the cataphract horse is slower...that was the primary reason for doing this of course, but the secondary visual effect was a nice bonus.

Nice! Did you increase hitpoints of the mount to reflect the increase (in model terms) of armour too? Have you tried this with camels instead of horses? That would be a good laugh: camel-driven scythed chriots!

I'd originally modded v1.2 of RTW, but this was pretty much wholesale changes, didn't really alter the models (apart from phalanx-capable NoObiAn Spearmen ~:angry:).

As others have said, I made most units (apart from horse archers, peasants, other misc) more expensive to recruit and upkeep, especially heavy infantry, missile troops, heavy cavalry and shock weapons (eles and chariots). Stopped the AI from spamming full-stack crappy units - RTW gets a bit too repetitive when you successfully destroy yet another full stack army of militia hoplites ~D

Also increased unit hitpoints, morale, attack / defence values, mental / training state etc. Made things more interesting on the battlefield, and at least battles lasted longer ~D

There were also some issues with export_descr_buildings which I sorted, like some units (think it was Bastarnae) that could not be trained at the highest level barracks (if it was captured). Also removed Roman 'fantasy' units, such as their heavy cavalry (legionary and praetorian), arcani, wardogs etc. Basically all I did here was stop them from training each unit at the specific building. But I felt sorry for the Romans, so I gave all 4 factions each level of gladiator (1 at each coloseum stage). Aren't I kind? ~D

Also built a few new (more like borrowed) units. Thrace were given Thracians as recruitable light infantry, Britons were given Chosen Archers (bit weird that they have archers on light chariots, but no foot archers), just changed unit cards and added unit names. Also made Cretan Archers recruitable exclusively to the Greek factions (Macedon, Greek_Cities, Thrace) at certain temples - Macedon missile bonus plus Cretans ~D

Altered a lot of descr_strat, including starting denari, populations, buildings, armies, campaign dates, ownership of provinces. Basically, Carthage got Carthago Nova, Rebels got Samarobriva and a few others. Also made rebels filthy rich so at last they could field some decent armies, rather than go into debt and stay there after 2 turns ~D I found that the typical steamroller factions (eg Egypt, Romans, Britons etc) were effectively neutralised, and this gave most AI factions a fair chance of surviving and forging an empire.

So, I basically edited a fair bit of what was already there, it was sort of crying out tbh.

[SomeNick]

Great stuff lads!

I'm going to try these ideas. I think the Chariots have been lacking a bit of variety and historical content myself.

Although they do seem a bit too effective at taking out Cavalry...even when routing...

~:cheers:

[Red Harvest]

I think you should up the numbers of javelins substantially. Going from 40 arrows to 6 javelins is a significant decrease in killingpower. Also one must assume that the noble warrior on the chariot would be carrying a lot of javelins in sidepouches and the like on his chariot.
Remember that the light chariot is extremely weak in melee, so when out of javelins it is basically done for the battle. Normal footskirmishers are actually more effective than these since they can actually do melee to an extent, don't cost nearly as much and most importantly are many more.

The javelinschariot in BI also only carries 6, but I upped them to 16, so theyweren't outnumberd by the Plumbatarii's plumbata.
I figured they wouldn't have much chance to use the extra javs on the field...I haven't had trouble with them running out in tests, unless the battle runs long.

I started out with a single rider with 12 javelins for the reason you mention. I had the distinct impression in testing that he was also getting 12 javelins from the charioteer's pool for a total of 24. He had a LOT of javelins, threw them very slowly and seemed like he would never run out. When I decided that the overall fire rate was much too low I added the 2nd man, but stuck with 6 javelins each for what I suspect is a working total of 18 per chariot (9 per missile hurler.)

With the "light" chariots I was going for the idea of a skirmisher that would be dangerous to heavy infantry (hence the armour piercing and high missile attack.) They apparently did keep Caesar's legionary troops busy in that fashion and were a threat, so I used the "ap" and high attack to provide that. In battle the chariots keep attacking with javs for a long time. And their "frightening" characteristic is always there of course.

If I had a skin and model for a javelineer using the heavily armoured brit riders, I would do a similar thing with the heavy chariots...except they would have melee power too (existing armour and with some attack.)

[Red Harvest]

Nice! Did you increase hitpoints of the mount to reflect the increase (in model terms) of armour too? Have you tried this with camels instead of horses? That would be a good laugh: camel-driven scythed chriots!
I didn't try increasing the hitpoints or armour of the mount. I wanted the scythed chariots to remain vulnerable...and slower. They didn't fare well in battle in this time frame, so that was my primary reasoning. I really did like the visual though. It just looked right with that heavily armoured charioteer. (I won't claim that the scythed chariots used cataphract horses in reality--although I have seen some modern renditions of this. It is something I need to research to see if there are any good period descriptions/depictions of scythed chariot horses. I expect the horses would have had some sort of head and breast covering at a minimum considering their role.)

Cataphract camels would be funny, and even slower. Don't think it would have worked in reality as camels aren't fast enough, nor would their shoulder height, etc. seem appropriate for harnessing a chariot team.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

I didn't try increasing the hitpoints or armour of the mount. I wanted the scythed chariots to remain vulnerable...and slower. They didn't fare well in battle in this time frame, so that was my primary reasoning. I really did like the visual though. It just looked right with that heavily armoured charioteer. (I won't claim that the scythed chariots used cataphract horses in reality--although I have seen some modern renditions of this. It is something I need to research to see if there are any good period descriptions/depictions of scythed chariot horses. I expect the horses would have had some sort of head and breast covering at a minimum considering their role.)

Cataphract camels would be funny, and even slower. Don't think it would have worked in reality as camels aren't fast enough, nor would their shoulder height, etc. seem appropriate for harnessing a chariot team.

I'd actually modded all of the chariot units in RTW v1.2, including the britons, pontus, seleucids and egyptians. Made them all have 18 / 36 men per crew (depending on video settings, i.e. normal / large). But also gave the Seleucids and Pontus extra mount hitpoints (think I decreased rider / driver hitpoints to compensate) and ran some tests against several units of phalanx-incapable NoObOrOz Spearmen (sorry for my repeated exageration of Nubian, it can't be helped ~D), and also each chariot crew against other.

The results: at last, chariots that had some staying power! You still have to use them like light cavalry, which means breaking out from an enemy formation and launching a new assault time after time. But at least with extra mount hitpoints they no longer drop like flies as soon as they physically touch an enemy unit ~D Also provide some armour to the mount to make it more realistic with model settings. But you will need to beef up the cost to recruit and upkeep these scythed beasts, otherwise battles become too one-sided (or increase defenders hps / defence values). Discovered this when AI Seleucids starting building full stack chariots armies - they decimated the AI Egyptians (for a change) and made good inroads into their territory.

As for camel-driven chariots, you could use the unarmoured models, EG Bedoiun Archers / Warriors etc, which seemed faster to me than their armoured cataphract counterparts. I'd test this myself, but need to reinstall RTW before I can do anything else with the scripts. Been encountering errors with RTW ever since I installed BI, probably because I'd modded v1.2 and the updated patch that came with BI (v1.3?) didn't update correctly, as I've read elsewhere ~:angry:

[Red Harvest]

Interesting Note about Formations
I found that I could not force a chariot formation that was less than 3 deep...IF it had an uneven number of chariots. I discovered this while attempting to run special test on "normal" unit size. It looked silly being 4 wide and 3 deep... On "large" it was two deep.

Missile count for chariot passengers INCLUDES the chariot driver.
So if a unit has 1 driver and 1 archer/javelinman, it has 2x the nominal missile count available for the ranged fighter. If a unit has 1 driver and 2 archers/javelineers, then it has 3/2 = 1.5x as many missiles per ranged combatant as the nominal missile count.


Seasoned Alcoholic,

The cataphract camels and normal camels use the same fs_camel skeleton. therefore their speed is the same. (I'm pretty sure I tested this but don't recall specifically) There are now four horse skeletons (and 5 different types of horses), with 4 horse speeds (the "generals horse" uses the medium horse skeleton IIRC.)

[Kraxis]

Missile count for chariot passengers INCLUDES the chariot driver.
So if a unit has 1 driver and 1 archer/javelinman, it has 2x the nominal missile count available for the ranged fighter. If a unit has 1 driver and 2 archers/javelineers, then it has 3/2 = 1.5x as many missiles per ranged combatant as the nominal missile count.
Well that explains why it can be such a pain to wait out those Egyptian chariots, they have arrows for an eternity.

[Red Harvest]

Well that explains why it can be such a pain to wait out those Egyptian chariots, they have arrows for an eternity.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. They already nominally had 60 arrows...this means they have 90 each!

Wouldn't mind someone else checking to see if I've made a mistake in the test, but I counted volleys and attempted to count missiles with a setting of "2" for the javelin chariots carrying two shooters each. They launched three full volleys vs. a phalanx test unit.

I'm still tinkering a little. They are deadly from behind, and withering on the unshielded flank, but as you can imagine, they don't do all that much damage frontally against units with good armour and full shields. I probably should leave that as it is but I'm tempted to push up the attack value a little more (might screw up autocalc and such though...and then might I need to add more cost, etc.) I'll have to look at them some in a campaign as a neighbor to see if the AI goes nuts building them.