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Kaiser of Arabia
11-09-2005, 02:09
Ok, we need a thread on this, it seems to have fallen out of the backroom. Let's debate on it. I'll start with a small writing I did once.

Picture it. You just graduated from high school. You had the best grades in your class, near-perfect SAT scores, tons of community service and extracurricular activities, the works. You apply to, let’s say, Princeton. The interview goes well, so well, in fact, you’re almost guaranteed a place in their freshmen class. A few weeks pass, and every day you excitedly go check the mail. Nothing. Until one day, while sifting through a pile of bills and coupons, you stumble across a letter from Princeton University. Your heart races and veins bulge as you hastily run to your room, scattering the rest of the mail all over your living room. You jump on your bed, barely falling off as your fingers nimbly tear open the envelope and unfold the letter. Your face quickly goes from the exalted face of someone who has just one a million dollars to the face of someone who just found out their parents died. Your eyes dart over the page, again and again, as if they wished to read different words each time. After minutes of complete shock, you finally come to your senses and face the facts. You were not accepted.

You were passed over for a minority student with lower test scores, a mediocre class rank, no community service, and a criminal record. You curse the gods, you curse the country, you curse your family, you curse the student, but most of all you curse yourself. How could this happen to you? In your mind, you go back in time, meticulously scanning every action of your life for the past four years. You find nothing wrong. But who is to blame? You may not see it immediately, but a government program put in place to help defend the rights of minorities has stripped your future from you. That program is Affirmative Action.

But why is this program in place if it can destroy the hopes and futures of American students? Why doesn’t the government do something about this? Is it because that was their intention; to harm the future of America? Or is the plot much more deep and sickening than that?

Originating as far back as 1965, Affirmative Action was originally meant to help African Americans and other ethnic minorities attain an equal status in American Society. That being said, overall, it doesn’t seem like a bad idea. However, it was only originally intended to represent a transitional period lasting one or two decades, for Blacks to be fully integrated into society. Fast forward forty years. In the year 2005, Affirmative Action has forced itself as a permanent hindrance to the advancement of American society. In a time where ethnic minorities have attained equality under the law, and are supposed to be held accountable for their actions, many of them still fall behind the rest of America in their advancement into the future. This is in no way the fault of the average American, no; it is the fault of those who refuse to hold responsibility for their own actions and hide behind government programs such as Affirmative Action. If the American people were to rid themselves of the roadblock that is Affirmative Action, we, as a whole, would advance into an age where race and gender do not matter, and comradeship would prevail over personal grudges and prejudices. However, with Affirmative Action, the American people can never reach such a state.

Affirmative Action, in it’s current state of being, is detrimental to every part of American society. First of all, it is a major detriment to our businesses and universities. Affirmative Action groups, while vehemently denying such actions, have forced upon our businesses a sort of Racial Quota, where certain numerical quotas for members of an ethnic group to either be accepted or hired into a business are in place. If the businesses are not met, they run the risk of being slandered or worse yet, being sued by members of the ethnic group. While, in a landmark decision by the Supreme Court in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, the de jure use of Racial quotas, many of such quotas still exist in a de facto state. Many universities will show preference to ethnic minorities such as Africans or Hispanics to make up for large amounts of White, European students (a form of institutional racism). Also, many universities are forced by Affirmative Action groups into “taking into consideration the cultural, ethnic, and economical background of the student being assessed.” Basically, this means that they admissions boards are forced to show preference to poor ethnic minorities simply because they are poor ethnic minorities. Again, this is a form of institutional racism. To make matters worse, this is legal (See: Grutter vs. Bollinger, 2003), because The Supreme Court ruled that race could be used as a criterion in school admissions and that it would not be in violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The Court found that the University of Michigan Law School's narrowly-tailored policy was constitutional and appropriate "to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body."

This mentality makes several large assumptions. It assumes that every culture puts an equal emphasis on education and learning, something that is obviously not true. With the emerging “Gangsta’” Culture, which puts virtually no value on education, it is impossible to say that African Americans, as a whole, put the same emphasis on educations as Asians, who, arguably, put more emphasis on education and learning than anyone else. Therefore, if brought up under a culture that does not support education, one cannot put nearly the same quality and work into their schooling than someone that was brought up in a culture that highly values education. Also, the idea that these problems lie in the school systems rather in the cultures themselves is absurd. For the most part, teachers do not show preference to a certain ethnic group, and to lower the standards of our education and employment to accommodate these cultural differences only hinders the effect of the education or employment in question.

Another assumption is that biologically all ethnicities are equal. Although I realize that I shall be called many labels, amongst them “Nazi” and “Racist” for this statement, the simple fact is that they are not. Studies dating back to 1850s have consistently showed that certain ethnic groups naturally have a lower Intelligence Quotient than others. A very good article can be located at the following web address: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence], and many anthropological studies have proven that, on average, all races are not in fact of equal intelligence. Asians have been proven to have the highest average intelligence, whites the next highest, and Africans the lowest. However, every race does have it’s qualities, and instead of lowering standards of certain jobs to accommodate all races “equally,” one should focus on what each people’s specialty is, and therefore integrate them into society without deteriorating other parts of society.

Affirmative Action doesn’t only affect our chances to get jobs and an education; it also interferes with even our most basic freedoms. Advocates of such programs as Affirmative Action have created a culture based on the guilt of the white man for sins his ancestors committed hundreds of years ago. As a race, White’s are still forced to bear the burdens of slavery, the holocaust, pogroms in Russia and the Ukraine, religious persecutions, et cetera et cetera et cetera. The generations that committed these crimes have long since died, however Affirmative Action and Racialist groups force us to keep the issue at the forefront and refuse to allow us to put these things behind us. Also, every race is guilty of it’s crimes. When have we held Turks accountable for the Armenian Genocide, or their slave trading in the middle ages? When have we held blacks responsible for the race crimes they commit against us on a regular basis (Most victims of race crime – about 90 per cent – are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims," published in 1993.). Never, but yet, not only are we reminded of the past, we are forced to believe in farcical statistics that claim minorities to be the only victims of race crimes. In almost every debate about race crimes, someone brings up statistics about White racists murdering countless African victims. However, statistics prove otherwise.

• About 90% of the victims of interracial crimes are white.
• Blacks commit 7.5 times more violent interracial crimes than whites, although whites outnumber blacks by 7 to 1.
• Blacks murder more than 1,600 whites each year.
• Blacks murder whites at 18 times the rate whites murder blacks.
• On a per capita basis, blacks commit 50 times more violent crime than whites.

These statistics come from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. However, you will never hear of them on the news, because of pro-Affirmative Action and Racialist groups. And, on the event that they do come up, Affirmative Action groups claim that this is because of unequal economical conditions. They fail to realize that Affirmative Action, which is nothing short than full blown racism, is the cause of this. By creating a legal shield for minorities to hide behind, they only can suffer.

However, because of the guilt culture minorities have created, we can never mention this. We can never mention the fact that, as a race, Whites have suffered far more than any other minority (Armenian Genocide, Stalinist Purges, the Holocaust [about half of the 11 million killed were white, and over 4 million of them were Catholics], World War Two, The fire bombings of Dresden and Hamburg, September 11th, the Beslan Hostage Crisis, London Bombings, the Russian Airplane Bombings, et al; the victims of these tragedies were predominantly white and many of the more recent ones were caused by what in America today is considered an Ethnic Minority), yet our suffering means naught, as crimes have been committed against other ethnicities. American law suggests that all men are created equal, however, that is not true. While all men are born equal, some become a greater being by actions and virtues, and Affirmative Action only hinders many of these men from becoming truly great. Under the assumption that all men are equal, Mother Theresa is the same as Charles Manson, or Ivan Cooper being equal to Adolf Hitler. Men become what they are only through their actions, and if they are given an easy way out of life, they can never reach their full potential, and their race is doomed to repeat the mistakes of their forefathers, and until Affirmative Action is removed from law, those affected can never reach their potential, nor can those who’s dreams are crushed because of it.

“We are, all of us, growing volcanoes that approach the hour of their eruption; but how near or distant that is, nobody knows - not even God.” – Nietzsche

Aurelian
11-09-2005, 08:55
"You were passed over for a minority student with lower test scores, a mediocre class rank, no community service, and a criminal record."

Well that's not too likely. You're more likely to be passed over for one of the Cosby kids. Affirmative action usually gives the edge to a minority in a hiring situation if both candidates are equally qualified. So, you end up giving advantages to those minorities who have already demonstrated their aptitude. As likely as not, they'll have come from the middle or upper class.

Of course, one of the goals of affirmative action was to get minorities past the good old boy system that excluded them. The idea was that by moving up the educational and professional ladder, they'd leave it in place for others to come up after them. That has probably happened somewhat.

Still, the people who really need help with their education and career prospects are at the lower socio-economic end of the spectrum, and of all races. College and workplace preferences don't help them much.

Overall, I'm not in favor of affirmative action because you should try to make achievement as race neutral as possible. Plus, it makes white boys feel sad and victimized, and nobody needs that. ~D

m52nickerson
11-09-2005, 10:32
Overall, I'm not in favor of affirmative action because you should try to make achievement as race neutral as possible. Plus, it makes white boys feel sad and victimized, and nobody needs that. ~D

I agree, you cannot have a law that is dependent on race and then expect every thing else to ignore race. The only way we will every have things equal is when we stop bringing race up for any reason, both good and bad.

BDC
11-09-2005, 16:04
This sort of thing means I have a slightly better chance of getting into uni than someone who went to a private school. Bearing in mind the petty substantial difference between a good private school and a good state school, I think it's fair enough. Everyone at private schools now seems to get AAA at A level anyway.

solypsist
11-09-2005, 16:20
some of you guys sound like Chicken Little

Prodigal
11-09-2005, 16:58
Whites did as a political bid to appeal to minority votes.
You have to hand it to them though, its one helluva lot cheaper than improving schools, & reforms that may lessen the type of educational gaps that can be created between the "haves & have nots"

I could expand this into a catch-22 argument but I'm going home instead.

Wardo
11-09-2005, 21:39
We imported this in a bizzare way, we currently have two models, one is based on Race, the candidate must come from a public school and pass the racial exam which defines the level of non-whiteness using Nazi techniques, your family can have 40 Generations of the darkest Nigerian black and if your great-grandmother had a little fun with a White Dutch guy and you were born slightly tanned you're out, you're not minority enough, even though every past member of your family lived in misery and your ancestors were all slaves, the size of your nose and the tone of your skin defines your blacktitude, it doesn't matter if you consider yourself black or not, it's up to Himmler to judge you, and if you are declared black enough, you can enter the university.

These students enter the university and obviously can't keep up, they need extra classes to catch up with stuff they never learned in Public Schools, the final project intends to force all universities to make the first 2 years of all courses to be like the last two years of "High School", so in med-school instead of fiddling with corpses students will learn first that 2+2=4.

Currently 42% of the university students came from Public Schools, students with grades 40% higher were left out to open room, since there is a greater entrance of unprepared students the quality level falls, the students who entered by this system have a chance of being rejected four times higher than anybody else, they cannot keep up, as if that wasn't bad enough usually the poorest students can't afford to buy books and other material or pay for transportation to the university or even pay for food, so they are forced to quit and give-up after they took the seat of a dedicated student who scored 40% higher.

It's a complete tried and tested failure.

Now we have another model, the MERITOCRATIC model applied only in one State. This system is NOT based on Race or any form of "minority" and to allow for public school students to enter the university with equal chances the project attacks the ROOT of the problem, the goal is to improve the public "High School" education instead of allowing worse students to take the seat of the best ones.

The results are extraordinary, in the university where this system was implemented 66% of the students came from public schools, this number is higher than the national rate I mentioned earlier (42%) and a highly competitive subject such as Medicine has 32% of the students from public education which is also much higher than the national rate (15%).

Here's how it works, the university applies a test on the last 3 years of "High School" on every school in the state, based on the results they produce a detailed report on the deficiencies of each and every school and elaborate new pedagogic programs to correct and fill their specific needs, when it's time to take the test to enter the university the students have two options, they can take the normal exam as anybody else (after having 3 years of higher quality public "High School") or present the results of the past 3 tests and the university reserves 20% of the seats for the BEST results of the 3 tests, regardless of race, color, nose type, lips, etc. This university ranks as one of the top 7 in the country, or in other words, the quality has not been reduced. Also, this program offers free residence near the university and pay for transport and food for the poorest students, so the rate of quitting is three times lower than in the rest of the universities.

So, this program based on meritocracy instead of assistencialism has allowed, for 10 years, for students from a better public school education to enter the university without degrading the quality or preventing the best private school students to enter, it costs more than simply allowing bad and/or unprepared students to pass with low grades, but this program actually FIXED the source of the problem and since the public education students score the same or even higher grades than private school students it is a program that proves only the best students will graduate regardless of origin, race or financial status.

Wardo
11-09-2005, 22:07
Another assumption is that biologically all ethnicities are equal. Although I realize that I shall be called many labels, amongst them “Nazi” and “Racist” for this statement, the simple fact is that they are not. Studies dating back to 1850s have consistently showed that certain ethnic groups naturally have a lower Intelligence Quotient than others. A very good article can be located at the following web address: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence], and many anthropological studies have proven that, on average, all races are not in fact of equal intelligence. Asians have been proven to have the highest average intelligence, whites the next highest, and Africans the lowest.

This is highly relative, the Japanese educational method is basically 24/7 study, any Japanese student could rank higher on "intelligence" tests than your average European kid who plays Playstation II for 20 hours a day and dedicates 4 hours a WEEK to study, now in Africa nobody studies or at least nobody studies to the level of other continents.

South Koreans also dedicate their young life to study like freaks, are Koreans more intelligent than American kids? South Koreans and North Koreans are the same people, however in North Korea they submit to Kim Jong-il and sing paternalist songs from birth and are basically a brain-washed mass of loyal zombies. Where is the biological "intelligence"?! Decades of different forms of education created this difference, not DNA.

"Intelligence" itself is a highly relative concept, ask 10 psychologists and they will give you 10 different definitions of it, what cannot be denied is that if Africa was like Japan and Japan was like Africa every study or test would rank Africans as being more "intelligent" than Japanese.

Everybody has an Einstein inside themselves, it is up to them to decide to let it blossom or not, through dedicated study on a good educational system it doesn't matter what "Race" you belong to, you can do as good as anybody else if you work as hard as them, now if you take a random bunch like a group of lazy European kids and compare them to Japanese slave-students you can only naturally expect the latter to score higher on an IQ test.

Aurelian
11-10-2005, 00:49
Wardo, interesting story about the educational system in your country. Are you from the Netherlands?

As for everybody having an Einstein within themselves... well, that's probably pushing it. ~D As I recall, it was pretty clear by Kindergarten who the dumbasses and future prison inmates were going to be. But, I agree that lifestyle and training could probably make a huge difference in outcomes.

A lot of the experimental work on infant brain development shows that those babies who get good mothering, nutrition, physical affection, and lots of stimulation develop neural connections and networks that probably forms the basis for their future intelligence. Those cultures that encourage attention to infants and supportive parenting probably do end up with smarter children right out of the cradle.

In California, Rob Reiner ("Meathead" from "All in the Family") has been developing programs to teach parents how to give the proper stimulation and care that children need. It will be interesting to see how the kids whose parents followed the program turn out.

Wardo
11-10-2005, 04:28
Aurelian, I agree entirely with you, as you can see I am in favour of meritocracy, so the need to identify the promising kids from the sociopaths is obvious, for the merit of the good, decent kids. I hope I didn't passed some lame politically correct message about everybody being equal or anything like that, you know, I was just saying that, as you mentioned, given a proper healthy childhood every kid should be able to become a genius in one science or another, but of course, that depends on the will of the individual first and foremost. :bow:

KafirChobee
11-10-2005, 06:08
Know what? I now understand where "Kaiser" is coming from in his attitude toward minorities and his understanding of society. I truelly am sorry you were passed over by for some under privilaged "other". Simply because of race. However, at one time in this country (USA) it didn't matter if a black, asian, hispanic or poor white was an Einstein - they simply could not qualify for an Ivy League school or White College, or that matter.

Life is not fair - but, it is fairer for you then others. So, suck it up. What? You didn't apply to VMI? Couldn't find a Congressman to sponsor you for WP (grades and attitude, maybe)?

Poor, poor soul. My heart truely bleeds.

Me? I attended a JC, after the Army. Then a State University. Then had a Professor find me scholarships (Harvard, with invitations to Yale for Kissingers lectures) - talent wins every time. Maybe, you just need to apply yours. And, quit whining.

Then again, maybe you are right - maybe a return to 1950's segregation and racial suppression is just what this country needs. I mean after all, they just honored a women for not giving up her seat on a bus - how dumb is that. Oh, wait - the Prez didn't, he didn't even bother to send a someone to represent him. See? Maybe we can get back to the era that you might feel more comfortable in. What ya think?

I swear, this is not a hit on you - it is a hit on the idea you represented. So, when I get slammed again for "personal" attack - let me say now. Affirmative Action was created so that all races could and would be entitled to equal advanced educational treatment. The dig is, that such legislation was ever required. The problem is, that without it - things would swing back to 1954 in about 2 1/2 minutes.

Sorry for your loss. Really. Honestly. Most Sincerely.

solypsist
11-10-2005, 06:31
let me just say this: if the white man had treated other peoples and races with equality and respect from the beginning then we wouldn't have affirmative action. this thread is a thinly veiled racist diatribe (so are some others) and it's getting tiring.

GoreBag
11-10-2005, 06:36
let me just say this: if the white man had treated other peoples and races with equality and respect from the beginning then we wouldn't have affirmative action. this thread is a thinly veiled racist diatribe (so are some others) and it's getting tiring.

Did any people treat another with equality and respect?

PanzerJaeger
11-10-2005, 06:40
Im glad I went to private schools and had no problems with college. I cant imagine my anger if I was passed over for an inferior black person, just cause he was black.

Giving angry black people special rights is a blight on this nation. What about angry asians, have they not yelled loud enough? ~D

Good for you Caps speaking your mind about it in this PC environment.

The power of the liberal thought police that patrol this nation is being slowly eroded as the aging hippies grow old and die, hopefully never to arise again. ~D

GoreBag
11-10-2005, 06:42
The power of the liberal thought police that patrol this nation is being slowly eroded as the aging hippies grow old and die, hopefully never to arise again. ~D

The same can be said about the neo-cons and their patriot police, and every other baby boomer that had a role in screwing the world up.

solypsist
11-10-2005, 07:41
sorry, this thread is temporarily closed. it may be reopened in the near future. the moderators needs to discuss the content and decide if it would be productive to the backroom to re-open and resume.


Im glad I went to private schools and had no problems with college. I cant imagine my anger if I was passed over for an inferior black person, just cause he was black.

Giving angry black people special rights is a blight on this nation. What about angry asians, have they not yelled loud enough? ~D

Good for you Caps speaking your mind about it in this PC environment.

The power of the liberal thought police that patrol this nation is being slowly eroded as the aging hippies grow old and die, hopefully never to arise again. ~D