Standing up for your beleifs

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Is it important to stand up for what you beleive in, or a cause greater than yourself, even if it means your life?

You know what I voted.

[solypsist]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

[Reverend Joe]

Hell, I'm 19, and I already see the gray.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.

[AntiochusIII]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.Does that make a difference? Fundamentally we are all creatures of survival. Ideals be damned; you could only hold on to your ideals with the cost of your life if your life is that miserable it's more worthy to die than live...or you are brainwashed.

This does not count those whose mental condition is not "normal," though.

So, no.

[Kanamori]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.
There is no "fundamental" since it depends on the situation.

[PanzerJaeger]

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

Great men do not see grey in terms of fundamental beliefs, no matter their age.

It is important that people stand up for what is right, not pussyfoot around, because if no one does, then every one suffers.

[Kanamori]

Believing is not the same as knowing.

[solypsist]

been there, done that with fundamental beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#Non-religious_fundamentalism). you can have it.


I mean fundementally, which is more important.

[Devastatin Dave]

soly, not picking on you, but is there a belief that you hold that you would consider giving your life for?

[AntiochusIII]

Great men do not see grey in terms of fundamental beliefs, no matter their age.Certainly Bismarch was ready to compromise if it would allow him to nab away a bit more of France, don't you think? How about Thomas Jefferson's presidency? He did compromised a lot. Or even Leo Tolstoy's most productive time being young and flexible, rather than an old, absolute, even possibly pathetic moralist he was in the later years of his life? How about, in fact, Henry Clay, the "Great Pacificator?"

If none of those are great men to you, I'd certainly not like to know what kind of men in your mind makes "the Great."

It is important that people stand up for what is right, not pussyfoot around, because if no one does, then every one suffers.What is right? If it's your own opinion, then defend yourself, but your neighbor might disagree, and you are in no obligation to "save" him.

I don't really want to go into the "My God is bigger than your god" or "I'm right; you're wrong" scenarios. People are different in opinions and mindset.

[bmolsson]

Age doesn't change the standing up for your beliefs at all. Age does change the beliefs though. With age you become more realistic and don't spend a lot of efforts on irrelevant beliefs......

[Strike For The South]

This is a pretty borad topic We claimed we were standing up to fight oppresion in WW2 and that was good but at the same time this is same logic extremist muslims use to kill innocents. So as of now Gah me baby

[solypsist]

to paraphrase Patton: "You do not win a war by dying for your conutry. You win a war by making the other guy die for his." - I apply that logic to my normal life.

so Dave, you're asking me the wrong question. ~:smoking:


soly, not picking on you, but is there a belief that you hold that you would consider giving your life for?

[Papewaio]

It depends on the belief, situation and the cost benefit.

I believe that Coke Cola tastes better then Pepsi... I am not going to go out on a limb and die for that particular belief... it is a definite gray choice.

[Togakure]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.
What is gray, but black and white in motion?

My answer is: it depends.

This lil kid walked up to a really tall counselor at summer camp who was gettin' a drink from the fountain. He said with a grin, "Hey how's the weather up there?" The almighty counselor spat a mouthful into the kid's face and said, "It's raining. Looks like you need an umbrella."

Get up, stand up ... stand up for your rights! Wa-wo-wo-whoa ...

[AntiochusIII]

What is gray, but black and white in motion?Ah, but what is white but the many rainbow colours in motion? And what is black but the lack of light? What is ignorance? White because it's supposed to be pure, or black because it lacks the light? What are faith and beliefs? Light or denial of light? Why stand up for one's beliefs if one's self does not understand the beliefs he's holding?

Just playing with you and spamming. ~;)

I believe that Coke Cola tastes better then Pepsi... I am not going to go out on a limb and die for that particular belief... it is a definite gray choice.But...but...if you put the lime in the co(conut)ke? Will some die for, or against that? ~;p

It depends on the belief, situation and the cost benefit.
My answer is: it depends.However, Kaiser clearly states that "standing up for your own beliefs" in this thread include forfeiting one's life:
Is it important to stand up for what you beleive in, or a cause greater than yourself, even if it means your life?Hence my lack of hesitation to answer no. I'm more realistic than that.

[Byzantine Prince]

No standing up for your beliefs is not good. I prefer to just bend over and let the beliefs speak for themselves. ~:eek:

[bmolsson]

No standing up for your beliefs is not good. I prefer to just bend over and let the beliefs speak for themselves. ~:eek:

Are you French ??? ~:joker:

[GoreBag]

I'm more concerned, for the most part, about whether or not someone else is going to kill me for my beliefs. I agree that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees, but it is hardly a great thing to be fatalistically tied to your own ignorance.

[Togakure]

Just believe strongly that your life is more important than those of others, and then stand up for what you believe in ~;p.

[Togakure]

...
However, Kaiser clearly states that "standing up for your own beliefs" in this thread include forfeiting one's life:Hence my lack of hesitation to answer no. I'm more realistic than that.
Ah, but I would gladly forfeit my life in order to protect a loved one, so there are some beliefs I hold for which I would, indeed, forfeit my life. Crazy lil thing called Love.



Gah, BP ... I ain't gonna nitpick with you about that. You know damn well what I was driving at.
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VVVVVVVVVVVV

[Byzantine Prince]

Ah, but I would gladly forfeit my life in order to protect a loved one, so there are some beliefs I hold for which I would, indeed, forfeit my life. Crazy lil thing called Love.
Yeah but life is pretty worthless. Hell we should make it blatant and start selling people's lives for oil.

Love is not a belief.

[GoreBag]

Love is not a belief.

I disagree.

[Redleg]

Yeah but life is pretty worthless. Hell we should make it blatant and start selling people's lives for oil.

To answer I shall use a post by Solypsist


get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how worthless life really is. (my change)



Love is not a belief.


Must resist the tempation. :fishbowl:

[Soulforged]

Saying that you don't stand for your believes is a logical fallacy. You see the mere fact that you're saying this is enough proof that there's something that you belief and stand for at other people's attacks.
Now if it's refered to an specifical class of belief then I should say that I don't know, I must be in an extreme situation to see if I'm capable of defendinf it. But I'm pretty headstrong, not good, but just who I'm.

[Adrian II]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.Aye. :bow:

Then add another fifteen, Kaiser of Arabia; by that time you will have difficulty seeing anything else but grey. That's when the real men are separated from the sheep. No pun intended.

[Tachikaze]

I can't think of a situation where my beliefs would be served by giving my life.

[_Martyr_]

To quote Wilfred Owen:

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots4
Of tired, outstripped5 Five-Nines6 that dropped behind.

Gas!7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,11 choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest13
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.15

[Ser Clegane]

Standing up?

Yes

But not simply for a "belief" but for an actual "purpose" if necessary.

People who were willing to die and kill for a "belief" without questioning the belief and its purpose have probably caused more grief and terror than those who "pussyfoot around".

[Idaho]

I think the Old Baby said it best:


A man is born gentle and weak.
At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
At their death they are withered and dry.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.
The soft and weak will overcome.

[Kagemusha]

Standing up?

Yes

But not simply for a "belief" but for an actual "purpose" if necessary.

People who were willing to die and kill for a "belief" without questioning the belief and its purpose have probably caused more grief and terror than those who "pussyfoot around".

I think Ser Clegane nailed it.:bow:

[Prodigal]

see how much gray area there is

An interesting piece of fiction which looks at the "grey area" subject, Dreams of Scipio by Iain Pears.

And a very big, Hear, Hear to the Owen poem.

[Byzantine Prince]

I disagree.
Well the craving for the feeling of love is not a belief, it's very real in a physical sense. I'm not afraid to stand up for that belief that I hold! ~:rolleyes:

PS: You guys want grey then get a kitty!

[yesdachi]

Just by saying you have a belief is a small demonstration of standing up for it.~:)

I don’t know the best way to word it but I see people standing up for their beliefs all the time, even here at the org. it doesn’t take a declaration and a life or death situation to stand up for ones belief. There have been enough passionate discussions about things I would call peoples beliefs here in the backroom to say most people do stand up for their beliefs. Think of topics like racism, gun control, abortion, and favorite chocolate (frontroom topic but it applies~D ). I have even seen people who seem to be using “gray” as an excuse not to give a definitive answer be pretty stand up when it comes to a perceived belief.

I say YES, stand up for your beliefs. But know when to compromise (coke better than pepsi? Afraid not, but I’m not going to war over it~;) ).

[Prodigal]

PS: You guys want grey then get a kitty!
Well that's just plain black an white wrong. The only good cats are white, or black & white, no grey about it.

[Geoffrey S]

Always be open-minded. It doesn't mean you have agree to everything you hear, or even believe it, but being open to another person's opinions is the only way to learn something. As far as I'm concerned I have no fixed beliefs, and don't expect that to ever be the case; being completely rigid in one's ways makes dialogue difficult, if not impossible.

People who were willing to die and kill for a "belief" without questioning the belief and its purpose have probably caused more grief and terror than those who "pussyfoot around".
That's pretty much it.

[Togakure]

I think the Old Baby said it best:

A man is born gentle and weak.
At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap.
At their death they are withered and dry.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death.
The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle.
A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall.
The soft and weak will overcome.
Yes indeed. For Christians, this is echoed in the suggestion to 'be as children,' and "the meek shall inherit the earth." This also supports a "pillar" principle of Aikido--Harmony, Energy, Way. For some, "standing up" becomes blending with discord, redirectly the energy, and transforming it into harmony. By living in this manner, we strive to uphold the Way of Life. We are giving our life with every breath we take, every move we make.

Another common thought comes to mind which relates to this: To think you 'know' something creates barriers to further learning about it. Hence the importance of moving through life with an open Mind. [Kudos, Geoffrey S.]

[Tribesman]

Great men do not see grey in terms of fundamental beliefs, no matter their age.
Hmmm ....wasn't that the funny Austrian fella with a dodgy moustache that said that :hide:

[LeftEyeNine]

What does "belief" refer to here anyway ? A communist believes the truth of his ideology while a soldier believes that his nation's survival is worth dying for..

Depends on the situation..

[GoreBag]

Well the craving for the feeling of love is not a belief, it's very real in a physical sense. I'm not afraid to stand up for that belief that I hold! ~:rolleyes:

Sure is. You believe it's not a belief. You must convince yourself, even, that you love at all, or you never will.

[Byzantine Prince]

If you begin to doubt the reality of love then you will have a tough time with me, because you will also have to convince me that the nervous system and the human mind might not exist. To suggest that the feeling of love is unreal is to suggest that nothing is real.

[bmolsson]

Well, you have been standing up for your beliefs long enough you just get tired and need to sit on them for a while.... ~;)

[Ja'chyra]

If ever a poll needed a Gah option.............

How do you know how you will react? Unless of course you've already been in that siuation, in which case, how do you know how you will react next time?

[AggonyDuck]

I voted no, but that might just be due to me not actually knowing what to believe in. But generally I'd propably tend to avoid losing my life over a belief. What do I actually gain from that? ~:confused:

[GoreBag]

If you begin to doubt the reality of love then you will have a tough time with me, because you will also have to convince me that the nervous system and the human mind might not exist. To suggest that the feeling of love is unreal is to suggest that nothing is real.

But you've already said that that is so, by saying that ultimately, nothing has purpose. I'm not saying it's unreal, I'm saying you created your own sentiments of love and that you continue to foster them as long as you 'believe' you love.

[Watchman]

Standing up ? Beliefs ? Important ?

Who cares ? That's a bridge everyone will have to cross by themselves should it one day become an issue. What some regard as important can be quite trivial to others, and in any case there may be good reasons to cast even the "important" aside - and what's "good reasons" is naturally heavily dependent on the individual.

Oh, people can decide however much they can, and intend however much they want - but ultimately they're only hoping that's the way they'll jump should the push come to shove.

As a side note, I remember painfully clearly what I was like in my teens. That, and observing others in that age these days, has led me to believe that almost without exception at that point of developement people are fervently convinced they know everything, or at least all the important answers, when they actually know nothing. Thankfully most grow out of it within the next ten years. Alas, some never do.

And, yes, they tend to resent being told that. ~D

[AntiochusIII]

Hmm...I wonder how many people who voted yes will still agree with their macho selves when they were thrown into a situation where they had to kill--or die--for their "beliefs." For example, if you have to shoot a Frenchman who would kill you because of your nationality, and would conquer your country if he could. Would you, out of belief, rather than instinct of self defense?

Might I repeat again, sir, that the poll includes dying for your beliefs.

That might change some's opinions. No need to act like a shonen hero, people, you are safe behind the forum mask. ~;)

If you begin to doubt the reality of love then you will have a tough time with me, because you will also have to convince me that the nervous system and the human mind might not exist. To suggest that the feeling of love is unreal is to suggest that nothing is real.I understand the point about the nervous system, necessary social-survival instinct, the brain, and such. But, what are we, then? If one would hold on to that position, the ultimate conclusion would be that we are but artificial, entirely physical beings, and the concept of soul, in any form, would be an utter hoax. There would be no point in anything whatsoever. One would be better off a nihilist than this; at least he'd value himself.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I'm not really a religious person so I voted "no". I know that beliefs are very important to many people, including my gf (whom which now makes me go to church. I sleep).

I know it's important, but I don't really think you absolutely have to stand up for your beliefs. They are beliefs not facts and when you try to push these beliefs on people it gets kind of annoying...

[Togakure]

I voted no, but that might just be due to me not actually knowing what to believe in. But generally I'd propably tend to avoid losing my life over a belief. What do I actually gain from that? ~:confused:
Well, some have believed--and I would guess there are some who still believe--you could gain/retain honor ....

[Byzantine Prince]

But you've already said that that is so, by saying that ultimately, nothing has purpose. I'm not saying it's unreal, I'm saying you created your own sentiments of love and that you continue to foster them as long as you 'believe' you love.
You are saying that my belief in love is simply a illusion because even though it's real I have to believe it exists or else it wouldn't be there. This would also include everything I feel and see and even what I'm reading right now. If you are to reject A, and A exists in the same universe as B, then you are also rejecting everything.

[Kagemusha]

It depends on context.Would i die for my favourite hockey team?No.Would i die protecting my country?propably yes,but i wouldnt want to die.I want to live.Is it important to stand up for your beliefs?It depends on context.

[GoreBag]

You are saying that my belief in love is simply a illusion because even though it's real I have to believe it exists or else it wouldn't be there.

That doesn't make it an illusion; it makes it an extension of your will.

[Strike For The South]

I'm not really a religious person so I voted "no". I know that beliefs are very important to many people, including my gf (whom which now makes me go to church. I sleep).


Dont lie ~;p

[Quietus]

You are saying that my belief in love is simply a illusion because even though it's real I have to believe it exists or else it wouldn't be there. This would also include everything I feel and see and even what I'm reading right now. If you are to reject A, and A exists in the same universe as B, then you are also rejecting everything. The unknown here is the electrochemical reaction inside your head, otherwise known as Consciousness. These reactions somehow become an idea (whichever it is). Surely there's an an electrochemical equivalents for every idea. But these are still largely unknown.

eg. If you hear a sound, how do you separate sound from the meaning of the sound?

[Ja'chyra]

You are saying that my belief in love is simply a illusion because even though it's real I have to believe it exists or else it wouldn't be there. This would also include everything I feel and see and even what I'm reading right now. If you are to reject A, and A exists in the same universe as B, then you are also rejecting everything.

Go back to talking about glory holes, that was much more amusing~:cheers:

[scooter_the_shooter]

I am in between. I know I would probably kill if necessary not out of belief but out of fear.(same as when you back an animal into a corner)

DIE? Probably not... I am a fan of living ya' know!

[Divinus Arma]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

I have a family and a mortgage and all the trappings of a middle class life.

It really is this black and white.


And my answer is yes. That's why I'm in the military. That's why I work in Law Enforcement.

And that's why my wife is a servant of this country and our community as she waits for the call that she knows she will one day get.

Wars are not fought only by childless men, remember?


You have to sacrifice to keep this fragile security we all take for granted. Ask anybody who has been to a warzone. Western society never appears the same again one you come back.

[Divinus Arma]

Aye. :bow:

Then add another fifteen, Kaiser of Arabia; by that time you will have difficulty seeing anything else but grey. That's when the real men are separated from the sheep. No pun intended.

Seems like some people are hiding behind their age. I see a primary color in this thread and it ain't red or blue.

edit: And BTW, why are some of you folks watering down this topic with "beliefs" about coke vs pepsi and other BS. Nobody is going to kill or die over that. I logically assume PJ means the important things. Just like you liberals "stand up" for your belief that Bush is a Liar. Fine. Go "stand up" when you vote. I also notice that the liberals are the ones arguing against standing up for principle.~:rolleyes:

When Rosa Parks refused to get her butt to the back of the bus, what would you call that? If it were any of you, then you would move for whitey 'cause it's to much trouble. After all "that's a grey area".

When the US invaded France to kick out the Nazis, what was that? We'd be speaking German if you guys were drafted. Oh wait, these are the same people that ran like hell to canada during 'Nam too.


I am actually sick reading some of these comments. Sick.

edit2: Thank God for people like Redleg, Gawain, Devastation Dave, and myself. Just a few who are willing to give it all up so that you can actually even have this debate.

[Adrian II]

Seems like some people are hiding behind their age. I see a primary color in this thread and it ain't red or blue.Green! :stare:

[scooter_the_shooter]

I think most of the people who do great things for a cause, Are not really thinking about the cause at all.

Example

The medic who ran across the street twice in Mogadishu to save a ranger. I doubt he was thinking."WOW now we can feed the hungry somalis, and bring jeffersonian democracy to africa!"

[Divinus Arma]

Green! :stare:

Is that the best answer you can give? Can't debate on a topic like "moral courage" can you?


You people mean to tell me that if faced with the death of yourself or your family, you would rather see your family killed?

I am aware that this is a primal argument, but amplify it to a broader meaning.

Your family.

Your neighborhood.

Your community.

Your liberty and quality of life.

Your country- your only voice in changing law.

Your culture.

Are these not worth fighting, killing and dieing for if need be?


Would you not fight and kill another to see to it that your children can be raised without daily fear of imminent death? And if so, what makes your children so special? Why not fight so that others' children may be raised without imminent fear of death?

[Ser Clegane]

You people mean to tell me that if faced with the death of yourself or your family, you would rather see your family killed?

I am aware that this is a primal argument, but amplify it to a broader meaning.

Your family.

Your neighborhood.

Your community.

Your liberty and quality of life.

Your country- your only voice in changing law.

Your culture.

Are these not worth fighting, killing and dieing for if need be?


Most of what you list does not really have something to do with a "belief", does it?

[Divinus Arma]

Most of what you list does not really have something to do with a "belief", does it?

It has everything to do with beliefs.

Do you believe your family has the right to live? What if I tell you that I believe your family deserves to die because of your ethnicity or religion? Don't the Jihadists believe that they have a right (and moral duty) to deprive you and your loved ones of life?

[Ser Clegane]

Do you believe your family has the right to live?
To reduce that to a "belief" is quite a stretch. If you include the necessity to directly protect the life of you and your family in your definition of "belief" that this discussion is rather meaningless, don't you think?



What if I tell you that I believe your family deserves to die because of your ethnicity or religion?

Than I would say that you are a prime example for what harm is caused by people who are willing to kill and die for no more than just a belief.

[Divinus Arma]

To reduce that to a "belief" is quite a stretch. If you include the necessity to directly protect the life of you and your family in your definition of "belief" that this discussion is rather meaningless, don't you think?[quote]

So now this is an argument over what a belief is? Jeeze. Forget about it. That is ridiculous and not even worth debating


[quote]Than I would say that you are a prime example for what harm is caused by people who are willing to kill and die for no more than just a belief.

All you did was take my sentences out of context. Some argument.

Just apply the logic here and respond to the totality of my argument, rather than look for small pieces that you think you can successfully atack without risk to your precious sense of self-preservation.

[Geoffrey S]

Thank God for people like Redleg, Gawain, Devastation Dave, and myself. Just a few who are willing to give it all up so that you can actually even have this debate.
The age-old 'us military people' elitist mentality? I do respect what you guys do, believe me, but don't belittle the rest for not being in the military.

[Ser Clegane]

All you did was take my sentences out of context. Some argument.

Where did I take it out of context? You gave an example of somebody trying to kill my family, simply based on a "belief" (which is exactly the topic of this discussion) - and not based on an actual physical threat to himself or his family.
I say that people like AQ are an excellent example where the blind willingness to kill and die for a belief leads to (Nazi Germany that you mentioned in a previous example is another excellent example).

[Kagemusha]

Divinus Arma do you really belief that the people here, who are talking about standing up for your beliefs. Would not defend their homes and and families if necessary? To defend your mate and offsprings is an instinct rather then belief.
beliefs are more about values then survival.

[Divinus Arma]

The age-old 'us military people' elitist mentality? I do respect what you guys do, believe me, but don't belittle the rest for not being in the military.

I did not belittle you. My statement was meant to put the service members on a pedestal. You are not less. People who serve are simply more.

And so is a little black lady who believed she had a right to sit in the fornt of the bus. Or did all of you miss that point? I am not going to list every example, so I only list a few.



Where did I take it out of context? You gave an example of somebody trying to kill my family, simply based on a "belief" (which is exactly the topic of this discussion) - and not based on an actual physical threat to himself or his family.
I say that people like AQ are an excellent example where the blind willingness to kill and die for a belief leads to (Nazi Germany that you mentioned in a previous example is another excellent example).

As I said, address the totality of my argument, which is (And try to read all the sentences in this paragraph):

Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?

Pretty simple point, if you ask me. Don't feed me your "oh, well if they didn't believe that, then I wouldn't have to stand up for my beliefs" garbage. Your point is moot. My argument remains. So which is it?


Divinus Arma do you really belief that the people here, who are talking about standing up for your beliefs. Would not defend their homes and and families if necessary?

Sure. Plenty of people stand by while their rights are taken away. Same is true for defense of the family. Some would cower in fear for themselves first- plain and simple.


To defend your mate and offsprings is an instinct rather then belief.
beliefs are more about values then survival.

I disagree. It is an inclination, yes. Instinct? I don't know and neither do you unless you have empirical evidence to prove that Humans have such an "instinct". But I won't argue this point, because I will never win and neither will you. I will argue that defense of one's mate is not instinctive at all. Define "mate" somebody you know? Another person? A study was once done where researchers asked children: "If your dog was drowning and so was a stranger, who would you save?" The Children almost always said their dog. Thus proves it is learned behavior, not instinctual.

So, you might defend your immediate family. What about your neighborhood? What about your community? If you were in Iraq, these people in your community would be your tribe; a greatly extended family. Would you defend your "tribe"? At what point do you abstain from your neighbor's defense.


I argue this: You and I are no better than one another or our neiughbor. I argue that your right to liberty is equal to my own, and so to with our neighbor. And so to with all humanity.

[Byzantine Prince]

If you think you are protecting something by joining the millitary you are simply naive. You are pawns to men of thought and devious nature.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I plan to join the military eventually....byz am i an evil pawn now?~:joker: What you said just seems like an excuse not to join.

WOW I gues the minute men did not defend their country at lexington and concord ,they were john adam's evil pawns.

[Byzantine Prince]

I plan to join the military eventually....byz am i an evil killer now?~:joker:
Nope, just a very cheap one. ~:joker:

[Ser Clegane]

As I said, address the totality of my argument, which is (And try to read all the sentences in this paragraph):

Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?

Pretty simple point, if you ask me. Don't feed me your "oh, well if they didn't believe that, then I wouldn't have to stand up for my beliefs" garbage. Your point is moot. My argument remains. So which is it?

Well, I would appreciate if you would not put words in my mouth and I suggest that you chill out a bit as you obviously get so worked up that you fail to read what has been posted.

Where did I say that "garbage" that I emphasized in the quote of your post?

Nobody here said that he wouldn't stand up when the life of his family would actually be threatened, that's just a strawman that you have been creating in your very first post.
Standing up against a direct threat against your own life or that of your family is just that - it is not standing up for a "belief".

Standing up for a "belief" is what the "jihadists" in your example are doing.

Simple as that - no taking out of context - just directly replying to your post (as before I would like to add).

[Divinus Arma]

If you think you are protecting something by joining the millitary you are simply naive. You are pawns to men of thought and devious nature.




I won't even dignify your post with a respectful reply. You will never know how protected and vulnerable you really are, little one.

[Kagemusha]

Well Divinus.I have given the military oath when i entered My countrys army.To defend my country from enemies outside and inside.And i honour that oath. My country doesnt accuire my services to fight in Iraq or anywhere else. If Any army would attack my country, i would defend it and die if necessary.So there is your answer. What im saying that i dont think that this thread is about that.I think its about your beliefs more moderate way. Someone sayd somewhere long a go , that all men loose heart sometimes. There are situations in normal life that you know things happen while you know its not necessary right,but you still let them pass you without doing nothing.
For example if you have a good friend and he is cheating his wife/girlfriend who you also know but not that well as your friend.Will you tell the girlfriend or keep your moth shut? And which option is right according to your beliefs?

[scooter_the_shooter]

I dont agree with divinus completely but he does have a point. There are some beliefs worth fighting for (I still have a hard time with the sacrificing your life for part though)

For example

Would you fight to stop the x ideal from spreading? So you DONT have to defend your families and homes from them? IE stop them there before they get here.

[Divinus Arma]

Well, I would appreciate if you would not put words in my mouth. Where did I say that "garbage" that I emphasized in the quote of your post?

You replied to my statement by arguing that people who seek to take away your rights are the problem. Your argument implied, whether you intended to or not, that if they did not have this belief then there would be no need to stand up for your own.

I'll defer to you. Clarify your point.



and I suggest that you chill out a bit as you obviously get so worked up that you fail to read what has been posted.

I read it all. And I'm chill. Like ice. Or... ice.



Nobody here said that he wouldn't stand up when the life of his family would actually be threatened, that's just a strawman that you have been creating in your very first post.

A direct threat? Perhaps. An indirect threat? No, I think many here have clearly stated that this is a "gray area". And you still have not answered my argument.


Standing up against a direct threat against your own life or that of your family is just that - it is not standing up for a "belief".

I am not going to argue what a belief is with you. Read this again:

Your beliefs are in conflict with the beliefs of others, so at what point do you stand up for your beliefs? You believe that you have a right to live free from fear and to pursue peaceful individual goals that better your life. There are those that believe it is there right to deprive you of all of this and to make you their slaves. Are your beliefs worth standing up for?

Edit (to respond):


Well Divinus.I have given the military oath when i entered My countrys army.To defend my country from enemies outside and inside.And i honour that oath. My country doesnt accuire my services to fight in Iraq or anywhere else. If Any army would attack my country, i would defend it and die if necessary.So there is your answer. What im saying that i dont think that this thread is about that.I think its about your beliefs more moderate way. Someone sayd somewhere long a go , that all men loose heart sometimes. There are situations in normal life that you know things happen while you know its not necessary right,but you still let them pass you without doing nothing.
For example if you have a good friend and he is cheating his wife/girlfriend who you also know but not that well as your friend.Will you tell the girlfriend or keep your moth shut? And which option is right according to your beliefs?

Good for you. Agreed on all points.

[Byzantine Prince]

I won't even dignify your post with a respectful reply. You will never know how protected and vulnerable you really are, little one.
Oh? I live in Canada. I don't need protection because people around here are rational. In a peaceful state a strong army or militia is more of hazard then anything any enemy can conjure up.

Also give it up, protection of loved ones comes naturally, it's not standing up for anything. Standing up for a belief is like protecting values that you hold dear, which is why you shouldn't stand up for beliefs most of the time. This is not to say you should bow down to the other's belief, because then you would be automatically standing up for another's belief.

PS: It is my belief that you should shut up.

[Divinus Arma]

PS: It is my belief that you should shut up.

Gee.~:rolleyes: My point is made.

[Byzantine Prince]

ahhh, my joke is made ~:rolleyes:

[Divinus Arma]

ahhh, my joke is made ~:rolleyes:


~:rolleyes: until you agree.

-Devastation Dave

[Ja'chyra]

My statement was not? meant to put the service members on a pedestal. You are not less. People who serve are simply more.

Simply, bollocks